The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by greenwizard13 »

so it begins...again :uhoh:

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Bipolar_Lobster »

So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, lying little man child who spits the dummy when he doesn't get his way. I hope he needs Marks help later in the year, it's going to be hilarious watching his petted little lower lip tremble when it doesn't happen.
Last edited by Bipolar_Lobster on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Jo_ »

I'm glad he's finally being honest about it.

I believed in Malaysia that he was sorry for putting himself above the team because I think Vettel really values the team and his relationship with them. However I didn't believe that he really felt the victory was Webber's and he was sorry for denying it to him. I felt that he went overboard with remorsefulness, which is probably understandable given that he was trying to manage things from a PR perspective as much as anything and shut the issue down so it could be dealt with internally and he had to do this before talking to the team.

That is not to say that I think this comes about because the team have said that what he did is fine. I think what this comment does is draw a line between the team side of the sport and the individual side of the sport: it was the wrong thing to do from the team perspective, but he and Webber are competitors and it's fake to suggest that you regret beating a competitor.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to feel about this comment ??


They don't care. All those people who spend countless hours working hard on components or anything else get their reward when they see the car they worked on win the race.


Bipolar_Lobster wrote:I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, lying little man child who spits the dummy when he doesn't get his way. I hope he needs Marks help later in the year, it's going to be hilarious watching his petted little lower lip tremble when it doesn't happen.


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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Laura23 »

If he'd just said this in Sepang instead of the 'I'm really sorry to Mark' BS then it would have been a lot easier. Now he does sound like he's backtracking. I don't get why he apologised for doing his job in the first place. Racing drivers are supposed to fight for the win until the last moment, time teams sat back and let them.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Of course he is backtracking, he got away with it. Now he is free to do what he wishes.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Blake »

Laura23 wrote:If he'd just said this in Sepang instead of the 'I'm really sorry to Mark' BS then it would have been a lot easier. Now he does sound like he's backtracking. I don't get why he apologised for doing his job in the first place. Racing drivers are supposed to fight for the win until the last moment, time teams sat back and let them.


My friend, that is easy to say when it is not your 100s of millions of dollars on the line to get results that best benefit the team. I know of no organization, be it a business, or a sport team that can tolerate letting the employees ignore orders and not suffer for it... this will be no different.

Vettel was very much in the wrong, that he feels no remorse is disturbing, but as I said earlier on the subject, I seriously doubt that we have seen the end of this issue... fireworks are likely going to appear soon. Webber got screwed and to quote a phrase, "...he ain't happy".
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by mds »

Emile_Heskey wrote:Webber didn't overtake-yes he had a go but didn't directly ignore team orders


He did. He literally said he did it.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Prema »

Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to feel about this comment ??


I find it interesting that quite some people expect from other people to be of exactly same and equipoised state of mind in all different possible and impossible circumstances.

As far as your question about how the RBR workforce feel about this apology of Vettel. My question is... Aren't that the same people who all got £ 10 000 each in the aftermath of Vettel's winning the title?

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront.


No, you wouldn't.

But he is clearly a two faced, lying little man child who spits the dummy when he doesn't get his way. I hope he needs Marks help later in the year, it's going to be hilarious watching his petted little lower lip tremble when it doesn't happen.


And that's why you wouldn't. Honestly. So much rage, anger, name calling, and ill wishes.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by A2jdl »

Prema wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to feel about this comment ??


I find it interesting that quite some people expect from other people to be of exactly same and equipoised state of mind in all different possible and impossible circumstances.

As far as your question about how the RBR workforce feel about this apology of Vettel. My question is... Aren't that the same people who all got £ 10 000 each in the aftermath of Vettel's winning the title?

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront.


No, you wouldn't.

But he is clearly a two faced, lying little man child who spits the dummy when he doesn't get his way. I hope he needs Marks help later in the year, it's going to be hilarious watching his petted little lower lip tremble when it doesn't happen.


And that's why you wouldn't. Honestly. So much rage, anger, name calling, and ill wishes.

That makes no sense

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by sixwheeler »

Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.
Last edited by sixwheeler on Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by sixwheeler »

Prema wrote:
And that's why you wouldn't. Honestly. So much rage, anger, name calling, and ill wishes.

He's simply expressing what the silent majority feel about it, but in overly strong terms. Those of the majority, that is, who can be bothered to spare a few brain cells to even think about it any more.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Laura23 »

Blake wrote:
Laura23 wrote:If he'd just said this in Sepang instead of the 'I'm really sorry to Mark' BS then it would have been a lot easier. Now he does sound like he's backtracking. I don't get why he apologised for doing his job in the first place. Racing drivers are supposed to fight for the win until the last moment, time teams sat back and let them.


My friend, that is easy to say when it is not your 100s of millions of dollars on the line to get results that best benefit the team. I know of no organization, be it a business, or a sport team that can tolerate letting the employees ignore orders and not suffer for it... this will be no different.

Vettel was very much in the wrong, that he feels no remorse is disturbing, but as I said earlier on the subject, I seriously doubt that we have seen the end of this issue... fireworks are likely going to appear soon. Webber got screwed and to quote a phrase, "...he ain't happy".
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Tbh if it were up to me then the WCC would mean nothing, either that or only the higher placing driver would score points for the team. But preferably no WCC. Teams would never agree to it so it won't ever happen. But it would solve the team orders issue once and for all, every driver would be for himself.

If this situation had happened to a driver other than Webber, who did the same to Vettel in 2011 and does sound like a hypocrite IMO, then I might sympathise far more. As it is it didn't and both Red Bull drivers are as bad as each other. Webber is not the squeaky clean driver many on this forum would have people believe.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by JBee »

according to the Beeb web Site (sorry Sky fans!), the German says hes not apologising for winning the race!!!!!

thats just about the same as saying "F*ck you Mark and the RBR team is it not?

that boy has a few things to learn yet, first one of which is NOT to bring down your team! Red Bull implosion will not be far behind!!!!!
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by sixwheeler »

Laura23 wrote:Webber is not the squeaky clean driver many on this forum would have people believe.


Maybe not squeaky clean. But he hasn't disobeyed instructions in the way that Vettel has. He may have shown that he'd like to, but that's not the same thing. He hasn't swerved into his team mate during a race and caused an accident either. Vettel has done all that, plus now he's arrived in China he's thumbing his nose at the rest of his team!

No comparison really is there.

Actually for the first time I'm now beginning to wonder what Red Bulls real thoughts are on Vettels future with them. He is probably secure for the time being even though he's made the management look weak and untruthful. But he's not quite the gemstone he has sometimes appeared to be. Only in 2011 did he win the Championship really convincingly. He finished 2010 and 2012 pretty well with some good drives at the end, but it could easily have gone either way both years.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by ob1kenobi.23 »

sixwheeler wrote:
Laura23 wrote:Webber is not the squeaky clean driver many on this forum would have people believe.


Maybe not squeaky clean. But he hasn't disobeyed instructions in the way that Vettel has. He may have shown that he'd like to, but that's not the same thing. He hasn't swerved into his team mate during a race and caused an accident either. Vettel has done all that, plus now he's arrived in China he's thumbing his nose at the rest of his team!

No comparison really is there.

Actually for the first time I'm now beginning to wonder what Red Bulls real thoughts are on Vettels future with them. He is probably secure for the time being even though he's made the management look weak and untruthful. But he's not quite the gemstone he has sometimes appeared to be. Only in 2011 did he win the Championship really convincingly. He finished 2010 and 2012 pretty well with some good drives at the end, but it could easily have gone either way both years.






"However, Horner pointed out that Webber has twice - at the 2011 British Grand Prix and also at last year's Brazilian Grand Prix - defied team orders not to race Vettel."

Taken from this article.
http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... st-of-2013
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Jo_ »

sixwheeler wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.

Quite the opposite I think this shows just how savvy Vettel is when it comes to managing things from a PR perspective.

In the aftermath of the race to say "Well I don't really care about taking the win from Webber" would have fuelled a massive fire. The media was chafing at the bit for anything that would make a headline and the audience was wider because that's when casual fans are paying attention. I would say that most people within the sport and who follow it closely felt that Vettel didn't care about denying his teammate, but it wasn't for them that Vettel made the statements he did: it was more likely to limit what the media had to say, give things time to settle down and minimise poking and prodding at the team. Three weeks on it's only the people in the sport and the more involved fans who will be paying attention.

IMO it's important to note the distinction Vettel made. He has maintained his regret at putting himself above the team, but not his regret at putting himself before his teammate who is also a competitor. That shows the respect to the team, which is IMO the major thing in this situation.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by tootsie323 »

Agree with the above. Seb has apologised for putting himself before the team but is not going to apologise for winning a race. What kind of serious race driver is going to? Will he be besides himself with remorse if he wins a fourth title???
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by specdecible »

Jo_ wrote:
sixwheeler wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.

Quite the opposite I think this shows just how savvy Vettel is when it comes to managing things from a PR perspective.

In the aftermath of the race to say "Well I don't really care about taking the win from Webber" would have fuelled a massive fire. The media was chafing at the bit for anything that would make a headline and the audience was wider because that's when casual fans are paying attention. I would say that most people within the sport and who follow it closely felt that Vettel didn't care about denying his teammate, but it wasn't for them that Vettel made the statements he did: it was more likely to limit what the media had to say, give things time to settle down and minimise poking and prodding at the team. Three weeks on it's only the people in the sport and the more involved fans who will be paying attention.

IMO it's important to note the distinction Vettel made. He has maintained his regret at putting himself above the team, but not his regret at putting himself before his teammate who is also a competitor. That shows the respect to the team, which is IMO the major thing in this situation.

Webber is also part of the team don't forget, along with the mechanics and engineers that work on his side of the garage. The competition between teammates is not just between the drivers and I think a lot of the team's personnel that work on Webber's side would have been feeling just as robbed as he was at the time which could cause for some disharmony inside the garage.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Prema »

A2jdl wrote:
Prema wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to feel about this comment ??


I find it interesting that quite some people expect from other people to be of exactly same and equipoised state of mind in all different possible and impossible circumstances.

As far as your question about how the RBR workforce feel about this apology of Vettel. My question is... Aren't that the same people who all got £ 10 000 each in the aftermath of Vettel's winning the title?

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront.


No, you wouldn't.

But he is clearly a two faced, lying little man child who spits the dummy when he doesn't get his way. I hope he needs Marks help later in the year, it's going to be hilarious watching his petted little lower lip tremble when it doesn't happen.


And that's why you wouldn't. Honestly. So much rage, anger, name calling, and ill wishes.

That makes no sense


That makes no sense

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Prema »

Jo_ wrote:
sixwheeler wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.

Quite the opposite I think this shows just how savvy Vettel is when it comes to managing things from a PR perspective.

In the aftermath of the race to say "Well I don't really care about taking the win from Webber" would have fuelled a massive fire. The media was chafing at the bit for anything that would make a headline and the audience was wider because that's when casual fans are paying attention. I would say that most people within the sport and who follow it closely felt that Vettel didn't care about denying his teammate, but it wasn't for them that Vettel made the statements he did: it was more likely to limit what the media had to say, give things time to settle down and minimise poking and prodding at the team. Three weeks on it's only the people in the sport and the more involved fans who will be paying attention.

IMO it's important to note the distinction Vettel made. He has maintained his regret at putting himself above the team, but not his regret at putting himself before his teammate who is also a competitor. That shows the respect to the team, which is IMO the major thing in this situation.


To add to that, I believe that the way Seb was acting and saying just after the race, was the way he was either told or expected from RBR to do. After he had disregarded the team order, he had to do a kind of "puddle". That was being a company man again.

When Seb is not a company man (disobeying that famous "multi") some people go for his throat for being "above the team". Then when he demonstrates that he was not above the team (with those apologies) same people keep hanging up on his throat for Seb not meaning what he said. Would Seb careless for any apologies and go minding his business, the people would rip his throat as that would be an additional proof for Seb's arrogance and keeping being above the team. And when he now tells how he feels about some aspects of it, guess what... the same people would like to tear him in pieces for hypocrisy, this time.

At least what is obvious is that Vettel is bringing some excitement in f1. Forget "Masses" and "deRestas" and "Nicos" and many others. We can't wait next races to see the duel Vettel-Webber, not Alonso-Massa.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Blake »

Prema wrote:At least what is obvious is that Vettel is bringing some excitement in f1. Forget "Masses" and "deRestas" and "Nicos" and many others. We can't wait next races to see the duel Vettel-Webber, not Alonso-Massa.


Speak for yourself, prema.... who made you spokesperson for the "we".
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Bruce_70 »

sixwheeler wrote:
Prema wrote:
And that's why you wouldn't. Honestly. So much rage, anger, name calling, and ill wishes.

He's simply expressing what the silent majority feel about it, but in overly strong terms. Those of the majority, that is, who can be bothered to spare a few brain cells to even think about it any more.


I disagree. I would say a minority. The majority doesn't like team orders. Thats a well known fact.
Vettel bashing on any level seems to be popular here in this forum though. So a majority here maybe, but dont be silly to think that this forum equals the worlds oppinion (i live in austria btw).

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Bruce_70 »

JBee wrote:according to the Beeb web Site (sorry Sky fans!), the German says hes not apologising for winning the race!!!!!

thats just about the same as saying "F*ck you Mark and the RBR team is it not?

that boy has a few things to learn yet, first one of which is NOT to bring down your team! Red Bull implosion will not be far behind!!!!!


Errr. Mark Webber is the one who is badmouthing the team, not Vettel. Standing on the podium, whining about stuff which should be talked internally. Especially when he wrote on his BBC column that he acted against team orders intentionally in Silverstone. Mark Webber and british/aussie media are the ones who always try to stir the pot. And then there are people like John Watson, who i think actually really hates Vettel for his driving talents. Pure envy that is.

But theres hope. There are people like Domenicali, Montezemolo and Whitmarsh, who clearly like Vettel and very highly regard him, persons which see that small mistakes doesnt make a bad person. Especially with a person like Vettel who rarely makes the same mistake twice.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by aryaputhra »

It's about time for MW to give that 'big-chin boy' an a$s-whooping. Hope to see it in China.

He's also clearly dissing the team as well by saying 'he won't apologise for winning'

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Blake »

Bruce_70 wrote:Errr. Mark Webber is the one who is badmouthing the team, not Vettel. Standing on the podium, whining about stuff which should be talked internally. Especially when he wrote on his BBC column that he acted against team orders intentionally in Silverstone. Mark Webber and british/aussie media are the ones who always try to stir the pot. And then there are people like John Watson, who i think actually really hates Vettel for his driving talents. Pure envy that is.

But theres hope. There are people like Domenicali, Montezemolo and Whitmarsh, who clearly like Vettel and very highly regard him, persons which see that small mistakes doesnt make a bad person. Especially with a person like Vettel who rarely makes the same mistake twice.


:?
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by blanken »

its going to be very interesting now that apparently there won't be anymore team orders issued. Not unlikely to think that Redbull will indeed lose a couple of 1-2 results they could have in the bag because the drivers continue to race until the end and destroy (possibly even delaminate) their tires

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Jo_ »

specdecible wrote:
Jo_ wrote:
sixwheeler wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.

Quite the opposite I think this shows just how savvy Vettel is when it comes to managing things from a PR perspective.

In the aftermath of the race to say "Well I don't really care about taking the win from Webber" would have fuelled a massive fire. The media was chafing at the bit for anything that would make a headline and the audience was wider because that's when casual fans are paying attention. I would say that most people within the sport and who follow it closely felt that Vettel didn't care about denying his teammate, but it wasn't for them that Vettel made the statements he did: it was more likely to limit what the media had to say, give things time to settle down and minimise poking and prodding at the team. Three weeks on it's only the people in the sport and the more involved fans who will be paying attention.

IMO it's important to note the distinction Vettel made. He has maintained his regret at putting himself above the team, but not his regret at putting himself before his teammate who is also a competitor. That shows the respect to the team, which is IMO the major thing in this situation.

Webber is also part of the team don't forget, along with the mechanics and engineers that work on his side of the garage. The competition between teammates is not just between the drivers and I think a lot of the team's personnel that work on Webber's side would have been feeling just as robbed as he was at the time which could cause for some disharmony inside the garage.

I was talking specifically about the manner in which he has presented the situation to the public.

However, I don't see it all that differently. The drivers' personal teams (the teams within the team) are a microcosm of the almost paradoxical element of F1: that it is both a team and an individual sport. On one hand they can be seen as members of the team overall and on the other as competitors with each other. One part of Vettel's apology applies to them - that as he disrespected the team's instructions he disrespected the team and is sorry about that. But regarding the other part there was an article by Mark Priestly (a McLaren mechanic during the 2007 season) and he talked about the fact that the drivers' personal teams within the team side with their driver almost blindly so perhaps if the team members do feel slighted by Vettel's actions that is more a product of the fact that the two sides of the garage are competitive with each other as well and therefore when it comes to the element of winning they can be included as part of the competition/an extension of Webber.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Race2win »

Reading the comments on here few things have become pretty clear...
1. Webber caused the crash with Vettel at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Silverstone, openly acknowledged not wanting to follow team orders, tried defending but lost Vettel in Malaysia, still cribs about the team in the media.... He doing the right thing.
2. Vettel was the victim of the crash at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Malaysia and won, apologised for not following TO but also says he not sorry for winning.... Hes the baddest bad guy ever to have walked the paddock.

Sensible conclusion by the posters here.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Zoue »

Jo_ wrote:
specdecible wrote:
Jo_ wrote:
sixwheeler wrote:
Bipolar_Lobster wrote:So shortly after the event he was sorry but now that that the dust has settled he isn't ??, I wonder how the Red Bull workforce, the people he made a point of offering a direct apology to, feel about this comment ??

I would have admired Seb if he had said this after stepping out of the car. It would have been honest and upfront. But he is clearly a two faced, ...etc etc

Yes, he's just shown his true colours hasn't he.

What the Red Bull workforce think about this latest utterance one can hazard a guess. Not much of a team player though is he. It's one thing thinking such things, but quite another making such public pronouncements while the dust is still flying around. I've got a strong feeling he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Fortunately for him he doesn't drive for a team like Williams. Frank would not have tolerated that, no way. Nor would some of the others.

Anyway, let's see what happens with Webber. He'll either step up to the mark - no pun intended - or he'll succumb. He would certainly be very foolish to ever trust Vettel again, and I'm sure most other drivers on the grid will feel the same. I wonder if that mistrust extends to the team he drives for as well. I haven't done any statistical analysis, but failures and strategic decisions such as pit stops don't seem historically to have disadvantaged Vettel as much as Webber.

Quite the opposite I think this shows just how savvy Vettel is when it comes to managing things from a PR perspective.

In the aftermath of the race to say "Well I don't really care about taking the win from Webber" would have fuelled a massive fire. The media was chafing at the bit for anything that would make a headline and the audience was wider because that's when casual fans are paying attention. I would say that most people within the sport and who follow it closely felt that Vettel didn't care about denying his teammate, but it wasn't for them that Vettel made the statements he did: it was more likely to limit what the media had to say, give things time to settle down and minimise poking and prodding at the team. Three weeks on it's only the people in the sport and the more involved fans who will be paying attention.

IMO it's important to note the distinction Vettel made. He has maintained his regret at putting himself above the team, but not his regret at putting himself before his teammate who is also a competitor. That shows the respect to the team, which is IMO the major thing in this situation.

Webber is also part of the team don't forget, along with the mechanics and engineers that work on his side of the garage. The competition between teammates is not just between the drivers and I think a lot of the team's personnel that work on Webber's side would have been feeling just as robbed as he was at the time which could cause for some disharmony inside the garage.

I was talking specifically about the manner in which he has presented the situation to the public.

However, I don't see it all that differently. The drivers' personal teams (the teams within the team) are a microcosm of the almost paradoxical element of F1: that it is both a team and an individual sport. On one hand they can be seen as members of the team overall and on the other as competitors with each other. One part of Vettel's apology applies to them - that as he disrespected the team's instructions he disrespected the team and is sorry about that. But regarding the other part there was an article by Mark Priestly (a McLaren mechanic during the 2007 season) and he talked about the fact that the drivers' personal teams within the team side with their driver almost blindly so perhaps if the team members do feel slighted by Vettel's actions that is more a product of the fact that the two sides of the garage are competitive with each other as well and therefore when it comes to the element of winning they can be included as part of the competition/an extension of Webber.

Agree 100% about the dynamics of the teams either side of the garage and the way alliances are formed. However, I don't see this latest declaration by Vettel as him being particularly savvy, nor do I think he's shown any respect for the team in what he's said.

The way it comes across to me is that his apology to the team is lip service to convention, but his real attitude is shown by his refusal to accept that winning the race was the wrong thing to do at the time. It shows he hasn't quite understood that he arguably only won the race because he disobeyed the team. And by effectively saying he's proud to have won he's making any apology to the team somewhat hollow. He's putting his own pride before the feelings of the team, which jhows them no respect IMO. He would have been far better off saying nothing and not fuelling the fire again

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Jo_ »

Zoue wrote:Agree 100% about the dynamics of the teams either side of the garage and the way alliances are formed. However, I don't see this latest declaration by Vettel as him being particularly savvy, nor do I think he's shown any respect for the team in what he's said.

The way it comes across to me is that his apology to the team is lip service to convention, but his real attitude is shown by his refusal to accept that winning the race was the wrong thing to do at the time. It shows he hasn't quite understood that he arguably only won the race because he disobeyed the team. And by effectively saying he's proud to have won he's making any apology to the team somewhat hollow. He's putting his own pride before the feelings of the team, which jhows them no respect IMO. He would have been far better off saying nothing and not fuelling the fire again

I think perhaps our difference of opinion here comes down to the different way in which we have taken the comment. I take it that Vettel is sorry for the way he achieved the win, but not for winning itself - as in, he's sorry for disobeying the order but not sorry for being a competitive animal who always strives to win. I also prefer that he has come out and made that distinction and been more honest and the reason I think it is savvy is because in the long run not doing that might have come back to bite him. He has made a big point in the past of saying that he's honest and genuine and that he will own mistakes and he can't maintain that stance if he doesn't live up to it. I felt he went too far in the aftermath trying to appease and calm down the situation, although I accepted that it was necessary at the time.

As for whether or not he won because he disobeyed the order IMO that's debatable, but I'm not going to go back into that in detail as my thoughts on it are well articulated right throughout this thread. I know what you're saying and I'm sure you know where I'm coming from on that as well. Whether or not that is the case is a major part of the issue as well, but unfortunately not something we can ever resolve without access to all the details.
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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Zoue »

Jo_ wrote:As for whether or not he won because he disobeyed the order IMO that's debatable, but I'm not going to go back into that in detail as my thoughts on it are well articulated right throughout this thread. I know what you're saying and I'm sure you know where I'm coming from on that as well. Whether or not that is the case is a major part of the issue as well, but unfortunately not something we can ever resolve without access to all the details.

I agree anything could have happened in the closing stages if they had both been allowed to race, but that's why I put "arguably" :twisted:. Like you say, that's a whole other debate :-P I was just trying to point out that the overtake at that time had a direct impact on the result, which in turn is why I felt him apparently ignoring that fact made his apology somewhat less than heartfelt.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by going_the_distance »

Based on what Webber just said in the PC Vettel really ought to be sorry. Webber goes into the final stop with over 4 second lead, calls in what lap he needs to pit but gets held out there a lap longer than he wants because the team are trying ensure Vettel doesn't have to fight with Hamilton for second again, so give him the optimal pit window. Webber's tyres are past it and he loses almost all of the gap he had built up over the race because the team are trying to preserve second place for Vettel. Then Vettel says thank you very much and nicks the win.

In the past Red Bull have been big on claiming the lead car gets pit stop priority, Mark has certainly lost some results over the years because of that policy. But not Vettel when the shoe is on the other foot.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by stranger »

Race2win wrote:Reading the comments on here few things have become pretty clear...
1. Webber caused the crash with Vettel at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Silverstone, openly acknowledged not wanting to follow team orders, tried defending but lost Vettel in Malaysia, still cribs about the team in the media.... He doing the right thing.
2. Vettel was the victim of the crash at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Malaysia and won, apologised for not following TO but also says he not sorry for winning.... Hes the baddest bad guy ever to have walked the paddock.

Sensible conclusion by the posters here.


I'm not hear to argue one way or another coz im seriously over this topic about which driver is in the right and wrong.

But I really don't think there are all that many on here who believe it is Webber's fault at the Turkey 2010 incident.
If you or anyone seriously thinks that Webber caused the crash at Turkey 2010, maybe just take another look at the incident again because perhaps your eyes have been playing tricks.

Its a known ediquette in driving, in just about any motorsport, that getting alongside another driver and even being in front of a driver, does not give you the authority to drive into them when you have not completely cleared the car. You have to have your ENTIRE car in front of the car you are trying to pass. Is anyone here seriously prepared to argue this point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU

Watch this videos, its for dummies of driver racing rules such as the few on here who actually believe Webber caused the crash, it shows in slow-mo how Vettel clearly drivers into Webber when he has not completely ahead of him. Both video angles of outside and cockpit view demonstrate this.


The rest of your conclusions are not far off truth. Webber did acknowledge he did want to keep racing Vettel despite being told not to at Silverstone.
Vettel on the other hand tried to label it a mistake when he not only tried to pass but did pass Webber after Webber had been instructed to turn his engine down and hold position.

Anyway, looking forward to China.

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by Zoue »

Jo_ wrote:
Zoue wrote:Agree 100% about the dynamics of the teams either side of the garage and the way alliances are formed. However, I don't see this latest declaration by Vettel as him being particularly savvy, nor do I think he's shown any respect for the team in what he's said.

The way it comes across to me is that his apology to the team is lip service to convention, but his real attitude is shown by his refusal to accept that winning the race was the wrong thing to do at the time. It shows he hasn't quite understood that he arguably only won the race because he disobeyed the team. And by effectively saying he's proud to have won he's making any apology to the team somewhat hollow. He's putting his own pride before the feelings of the team, which jhows them no respect IMO. He would have been far better off saying nothing and not fuelling the fire again

I think perhaps our difference of opinion here comes down to the different way in which we have taken the comment. I take it that Vettel is sorry for the way he achieved the win, but not for winning itself - as in, he's sorry for disobeying the order but not sorry for being a competitive animal who always strives to win. I also prefer that he has come out and made that distinction and been more honest and the reason I think it is savvy is because in the long run not doing that might have come back to bite him. He has made a big point in the past of saying that he's honest and genuine and that he will own mistakes and he can't maintain that stance if he doesn't live up to it. I felt he went too far in the aftermath trying to appease and calm down the situation, although I accepted that it was necessary at the time.

You know, it's possible that it may be just a language and interpretation thing. If he'd said "I don't apologise for being competitive," I would have had a little more sympathy. But the fact that he defends the win like he does is what makes me think he's being a little disingenuous. If he really felt for the team, he wouldn't try to rub their noses in it!

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Re: Vettel "I don't apologise for winning" in Malaysia

Post by stranger »

Jo_ wrote:
Zoue wrote:Agree 100% about the dynamics of the teams either side of the garage and the way alliances are formed. However, I don't see this latest declaration by Vettel as him being particularly savvy, nor do I think he's shown any respect for the team in what he's said.

The way it comes across to me is that his apology to the team is lip service to convention, but his real attitude is shown by his refusal to accept that winning the race was the wrong thing to do at the time. It shows he hasn't quite understood that he arguably only won the race because he disobeyed the team. And by effectively saying he's proud to have won he's making any apology to the team somewhat hollow. He's putting his own pride before the feelings of the team, which jhows them no respect IMO. He would have been far better off saying nothing and not fuelling the fire again

I think perhaps our difference of opinion here comes down to the different way in which we have taken the comment. I take it that Vettel is sorry for the way he achieved the win, but not for winning itself - as in, he's sorry for disobeying the order but not sorry for being a competitive animal who always strives to win. I also prefer that he has come out and made that distinction and been more honest and the reason I think it is savvy is because in the long run not doing that might have come back to bite him. He has made a big point in the past of saying that he's honest and genuine and that he will own mistakes and he can't maintain that stance if he doesn't live up to it. I felt he went too far in the aftermath trying to appease and calm down the situation, although I accepted that it was necessary at the time.

As for whether or not he won because he disobeyed the order IMO that's debatable, but I'm not going to go back into that in detail as my thoughts on it are well articulated right throughout this thread. I know what you're saying and I'm sure you know where I'm coming from on that as well. Whether or not that is the case is a major part of the issue as well, but unfortunately not something we can ever resolve without access to all the details.


Well yeah, I do agree, but its also a little weird.
He is either sorry or he is not, but I accept what your saying.
Vettel in my opinion is not really sorry though but its also a very difficult thing to come out and say "I am not sorry, I did it on purpose." We all know that is the real truth, but should he come out and say it that way it will only open up the media floodgates further as though he is confirming himself as higher in the team, openly.

The team would also not want him to say that. But sure, we all know its the truth that he did it on purpose.

Its like me coming up and knowing something is yours, stealing it and making it my own, and then saying sorry. Obviously I am not sorry or I would not have stolen it.

The fact that he is saying he is not sorry for actually winning, I see why, because I do agree, he strives to win regardless of what influences him not to. But in a way its almost like he is saying he was not really sorry at all, in a way that won't show him to be disrespectful to his team.

Arguable on all sides of the table but that is my personal opinion.

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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Toby. »

Race2win wrote:Reading the comments on here few things have become pretty clear...
1. Webber caused the crash with Vettel at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Silverstone, openly acknowledged not wanting to follow team orders, tried defending but lost Vettel in Malaysia, still cribs about the team in the media.... He doing the right thing.
2. Vettel was the victim of the crash at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Malaysia and won, apologised for not following TO but also says he not sorry for winning.... Hes the baddest bad guy ever to have walked the paddock.

Sensible conclusion by the posters here.


I don't think even the most deluded fans claim Vettel wasn't responsible for the Turkey crash anymore.
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by MikeyMoos67 »

Toby. wrote:
Race2win wrote:Reading the comments on here few things have become pretty clear...
1. Webber caused the crash with Vettel at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Silverstone, openly acknowledged not wanting to follow team orders, tried defending but lost Vettel in Malaysia, still cribs about the team in the media.... He doing the right thing.
2. Vettel was the victim of the crash at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Malaysia and won, apologised for not following TO but also says he not sorry for winning.... Hes the baddest bad guy ever to have walked the paddock.

Sensible conclusion by the posters here.


I don't think even the most deluded fans claim Vettel wasn't responsible for the Turkey crash anymore.



+1000000 .. Quite how that poster came to that conclusion is quite beyond me :?:
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Re: The Vettel/Webber/Sepang Uberthread

Post by Jo_ »

MikeyMoos67 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Race2win wrote:Reading the comments on here few things have become pretty clear...
1. Webber caused the crash with Vettel at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Silverstone, openly acknowledged not wanting to follow team orders, tried defending but lost Vettel in Malaysia, still cribs about the team in the media.... He doing the right thing.
2. Vettel was the victim of the crash at Turkey, disobeyed TO at Malaysia and won, apologised for not following TO but also says he not sorry for winning.... Hes the baddest bad guy ever to have walked the paddock.

Sensible conclusion by the posters here.


I don't think even the most deluded fans claim Vettel wasn't responsible for the Turkey crash anymore.



+1000000 .. Quite how that poster came to that conclusion is quite beyond me :?:

I am one of the people who advocates that Vettel was not to blame and I take umbrage at being called delusional.

That a vast majority believe something does not make it so and conversely just because someone is in a small minority does not make them wrong. History has proven that on many occasions. I have explained at length many times why I hold the opinion that I do, backing it up with evidence, even in this thread. I am not going to do that again because the Mods always ask that we stop debating that incident. However I have never had someone put something to me that demonstrates conclusively that I am wrong. I have seen a difference of opinion based on an alternative interpretation of the evidence, but never anything that proves that my interpretation of the information is inaccurate.

Statements like the one that has been made are just throwaway comments without any thought behind them and nothing makes me less inclined to post on this forum than things like that. Disagree, put forward an alternative perspective, be as out there and as over the top as you like with your opinion, but do so respectfully to others and actually back up what you say with evidence.
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