Formula E

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Rubbertire
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Formula E

Post by Rubbertire »

Anyone have any thoughts on these electric cars, could be interesting. I'd like to see the specs and rules........RT

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AngusWolfe
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Re: Formula E

Post by AngusWolfe »

Despite my ideas on electric engines in F1 (NO) I am somewhat looking forward to Formula E. Hopefully some TV coverage considering it's supposedly in city centres (would rather it was on tracks), and maybe a few ex/Future F1 drivers.

Could have come up with a better name though.
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RaggedMan
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Re: Formula E

Post by RaggedMan »

AngusWolfe wrote:Despite my ideas on electric engines in F1 (NO) I am somewhat looking forward to Formula E. Hopefully some TV coverage considering it's supposedly in city centres (would rather it was on tracks), and maybe a few ex/Future F1 drivers.

Could have come up with a better name though.

The article on James Allen's site suggest that some of those who recently lost their F1 rides will be driving in the Formula E (FE? That's iron right?) series. Kobiashi, and Heiki were mentioned.
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Race2win
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Re: Formula E

Post by Race2win »

IMO, rather than Electric, they should have gone for Hydrogen power. We still use massive amounts of fossil fuel to generate it, not to mention the batteries that would be required to store it. Also in a compeitive environment, hopefully no mishaps happen. I really wouldnt want to see something like that Williams guy being electrocuted some years during the trial of KERS. This could prove fatal. More over, hydrogen technology has lot more scope for r&d. Having said that, from a customers point of view, this would benefit the road car technology in the future. But for me given a choice between electric or a hydrogen powered car, i'd take hydrogen power in a heart beat.
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specdecible
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Re: Formula E

Post by specdecible »

Race2win wrote:IMO, rather than Electric, they should have gone for Hydrogen power. We still use massive amounts of fossil fuel to generate it, not to mention the batteries that would be required to store it. Also in a compeitive environment, hopefully no mishaps happen. I really wouldnt want to see something like that Williams guy being electrocuted some years during the trial of KERS. This could prove fatal. More over, hydrogen technology has lot more scope for r&d. Having said that, from a customers point of view, this would benefit the road car technology in the future. But for me given a choice between electric or a hydrogen powered car, i'd take hydrogen power in a heart beat.

Not wanting to take this thread off topic but hydrogen has a long way to go before it's even anywhere near efficient enough for use in road cars, a long way to go to even measure up to electric cars infact, but thats enough of that.

I'm looking forwards to Formula E, if it has good and entertaining racing should it really matter how they're powered. It's not like they are trying to replace any other categories.
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mds
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Re: Formula E

Post by mds »

OK, I'll be "that guy" again, but since the OP asked to state any thoughts, I'll give mine.
I'm not really looking forward to it, I won't be watching. Dreaded R/C car sound gets me every time I hear it.
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Re: Formula E

Post by Race2win »

@specdecible: Im looking forward to it too. Any form of racing is always welcome. I agree that it is current inefficient compared to electric but then when motor racing start in late 1800s and early 1900s even the internal combustion engine was not efficient. Yet look at where we have reached today. The R&D that has gone into road cars is partly thanks to racing.
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jamei
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Re: Formula E

Post by jamei »

They do sound like toys though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZ4VSFC6z0

:D

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Balibari
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Re: Formula E

Post by Balibari »

Race2win wrote:@specdecible: Im looking forward to it too. Any form of racing is always welcome. I agree that it is current inefficient compared to electric but then when motor racing start in late 1800s and early 1900s even the internal combustion engine was not efficient. Yet look at where we have reached today. The R&D that has gone into road cars is partly thanks to racing.

Want a car that creates twice the emissions of a normal car during construction?

Want a car that's distracting attention, resources and finance from genuine earth-saving tech?

Want a car that you can tell your mates is zero emission (even though it's charged via a coal-fired power station)?

Then go electric!
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RaggedMan
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Re: Formula E

Post by RaggedMan »

Race2win wrote:IMO, rather than Electric, they should have gone for Hydrogen power. We still use massive amounts of fossil fuel to generate it, not to mention the batteries that would be required to store it. Also in a compeitive environment, hopefully no mishaps happen. I really wouldnt want to see something like that Williams guy being electrocuted some years during the trial of KERS. This could prove fatal. More over, hydrogen technology has lot more scope for r&d. Having said that, from a customers point of view, this would benefit the road car technology in the future. But for me given a choice between electric or a hydrogen powered car, i'd take hydrogen power in a heart beat.

Hydrogen isn't really found on its own in very large quantities where you can just harvest it in some way and then use it. So some process has to be used in order to separate it away from sources like coal, natural gas, and water where it's combined with other elements. There are several methods to do the separation and none of them are terribly efficient either, and all require the use of electricity or fossil fuels to work.

The most common type of hydrogen powered car is one that uses a fuel cell to generate electricity, which in that case all it is, is an electric car that makes its own electricity on board. So that means having the weight of the fuel cell, and the storage tank would offset not having to have batteries.

As far as safety goes, storing and transporting hydrogen in either gaseous or liquid forms has its own problems. Namely high pressures, or extremely low temperatures. And I don't believe the Williams mechanic was electrocuted, which would imply that he died, but he did get shocked badly enough to need medical attention. Nothing is totally safe, but I don't think hydrogen is a whole better than either electricity, or petrol.
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mac_d
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Re: Formula E

Post by mac_d »

Hydrogen isn't ready yet. We really need a proper nanoporous material that can take in and release hydrogen while keeping binding energy (heat of adsorption) low enough that we don't see huge temperature swings. This must be combined with a stable bulk material. So to engineer a material for hydrogen use is a massive, massive challenge. The current best materials (that I know of anyway) are zinc based metal organic frameworks, but the weight % uptake is still pretty low, water susceptibility is a large issue and the solvents are pretty hideous in general. You'd need about 1kg of storage material to store 50-100g of hydrogen. Hydrogen is wonderful and does have exciting prospects but storage needs to be improved. Otherwise we need someone to come up with a fuel that is liquid at atmospheric temperatures.


Anyway, I'll watch formula E, at least until I can make a more informed choice to whether I like it or not. I have no real issue with the cars being electric if it gives good racing. And I read Boris has organised for one to happen in London somewhere. I prefer proper race tracks in general to street circuits.

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Re: Formula E

Post by Race2win »

@Raggedman: FYI Electrocuted doesnt neccesarily mean died. It also means injure by electric shock.
Also regarding your explaination for the disadvantages of hydrogen power you've just copy pasted the article. I have read that article too. I know what it involves. My point is I know its a dangerous commodity, but so was regular fuel, Petrol, in the late 1800. Infact early 80s many teams in F1 used additives in fuel which was even more volatile than regular fuel, to give extra boost. But thats besides the point. Any fuel is dangerous. We also know what is required to be done to store, transport and use it safely. Its a hydrogen fuel cell car which also has a electric genenrator. But it doesnt neccessarily need charging. The electricity can be produced within the car. And since FIA seriously considering the 'GREEN' badge with this series, hydrogen power would be even better on a longer term basis as it uses much less fossil fuel.
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RaggedMan
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Re: Formula E

Post by RaggedMan »

Race2win wrote:@Raggedman: FYI Electrocuted doesnt neccesarily mean died. It also means injure by electric shock.
Also regarding your explaination for the disadvantages of hydrogen power you've just copy pasted the article. I have read that article too. I know what it involves. My point is I know its a dangerous commodity, but so was regular fuel, Petrol, in the late 1800. Infact early 80s many teams in F1 used additives in fuel which was even more volatile than regular fuel, to give extra boost. But thats besides the point. Any fuel is dangerous. We also know what is required to be done to store, transport and use it safely. Its a hydrogen fuel cell car which also has a electric genenrator. But it doesnt neccessarily need charging. The electricity can be produced within the car. And since FIA seriously considering the 'GREEN' badge with this series, hydrogen power would be even better on a longer term basis as it uses much less fossil fuel.

Electrocute:
e·lec·tro·cute/ɪˈlɛktrəˌkyut/ Show Spelled [ih-lek-truh-kyoot]
verb (used with object), e·lec·tro·cut·ed, e·lec·tro·cut·ing.
1. to kill by electricity.

Any way you store enough energy to provide propulsion for even a scooter much less a racecar is going to dangerous. I wasn't saying that hydrogen isn't safe, just that it isn't particularly safer than electric.

I didn't cut and paste anything, I just wrote what I know off the top of my head from reading many articles on the pros & cons of lots of types of altenative energy sources.

As for being "green" if your argument against battery powered cars is that fossil fuels are used to generate the electricity that gets stored in the battery, then you also have to consider the fossil fuels that are used to provide the energy that is used to separate the hydrogen from whatever it is bound to (which is the same as what's charging those batteries), as well as the fact that most hydrogen is gained by sepating it out of fossil fuels like coal or natural gas.

I'm neither for nor against any of the sources that are currently being researched, but it seems whenever a discussion about alternative energy comes up on any of the car or technology forums I follow there's always someone who brings up hydrogen as some sort of panacea even though there are just as many technological roadblocks and environmental concerns to it being practical as there are to any of the others.

There could be a big breakthrough in energy density, yeild, and usable biomass for ethanol; or battery density and recharging time for electric; or generation, storage, and transportation of hydrogen at any point. That's why I think it makes no sense when people say that Technology A will never work because XYZ, so we should put the money being used on it into Technology B.
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Rubbertire
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Re: Formula E

Post by Rubbertire »

Hydrogen, Hmmm didn't think of that.

Here are a few things I've been thinking about,
1, What would the car have to weigh to have a close to F1 performance, I quess they will run a 186,500 watt system(250 horse power). My quess would be roughly 600 pounds or 272 KG

2, To make all that power what voltage would be required, it's a easy calculation but what is right. Very high voltage to keep the amps down or lower voltage for safety. At 2000 volts we are looking at 93 amps, at 500 volts we get 373 amps.

3, From the sound in the video this car has a transmission, why? Electric motors have a much wider range of power than a IC engine, maybe a 2 speed just to keep the amp loads down when exiting corners.

4, Watch the video, watch when the driver is at full steering lock, why is there so much ackerman. All cars use some amount of ackerman but this seems extreme.

5, From what I read each driver will have 2 cars to compete in a 45 minute race and will change car mid race(pit stop). Why not change battery and keep the same car, the side pods now have no function other than aero so why not fill those with batterys and change both sidepods during a pit stop.....RT

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flavio81
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Re: Formula E

Post by flavio81 »

Balibari wrote:
Race2win wrote:@specdecible: Im looking forward to it too. Any form of racing is always welcome. I agree that it is current inefficient compared to electric but then when motor racing start in late 1800s and early 1900s even the internal combustion engine was not efficient. Yet look at where we have reached today. The R&D that has gone into road cars is partly thanks to racing.

Want a car that creates twice the emissions of a normal car during construction?

Want a car that's distracting attention, resources and finance from genuine earth-saving tech?

Want a car that you can tell your mates is zero emission (even though it's charged via a coal-fired power station)?

Then go electric!


That's perhaps true in your country. In other countries power comes clean. Here most power comes from hydroelectricity. Another fact to consider, the four biggest power plants in the world are hydroelectric:

1. Three Gorges Dam (China), 22500 MW
2. Itaipu (Brazil), 14000 MW
3. Guri (Venezuela), 10235 MW -- this in a country full of crude oil
4. Tucurui (Brazil), 8830 MW

For comparison the most powerful coal burning plant produces 5780 MW.

As for Hydrogen, to convert electricity to hydrogen and then back then to electricity should have an efficiency penalty compared to using batteries.

As for the "genuine earth-saving tech", i'm all ears!!

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Formula E

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Race2win wrote:IMO, rather than Electric, they should have gone for Hydrogen power. We still use massive amounts of fossil fuel to generate it, not to mention the batteries that would be required to store it. Also in a compeitive environment, hopefully no mishaps happen. I really wouldnt want to see something like that Williams guy being electrocuted some years during the trial of KERS. This could prove fatal. More over, hydrogen technology has lot more scope for r&d. Having said that, from a customers point of view, this would benefit the road car technology in the future. But for me given a choice between electric or a hydrogen powered car, i'd take hydrogen power in a heart beat.

A Hydrogen car IS an electric car. You mean a battery car.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Formula E

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Balibari wrote:
Race2win wrote:@specdecible: Im looking forward to it too. Any form of racing is always welcome. I agree that it is current inefficient compared to electric but then when motor racing start in late 1800s and early 1900s even the internal combustion engine was not efficient. Yet look at where we have reached today. The R&D that has gone into road cars is partly thanks to racing.

Want a car that creates twice the emissions of a normal car during construction?

Want a car that's distracting attention, resources and finance from genuine earth-saving tech?

Want a car that you can tell your mates is zero emission (even though it's charged via a coal-fired power station)?

Then go electric!

You are also referring to a battery car.

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Re: Formula E

Post by Race2win »

@ATH: I KNOW. Both have batteries. But in an electric car you have to recharge the batteries with a power source. But a Hyrdrogen powered car the Hydrogen power is used to recharge the batteries.
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Re: Formula E

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Race2win wrote:@ATH: I KNOW. Both have batteries. But in an electric car you have to recharge the batteries with a power source. But a Hyrdrogen powered car the Hydrogen power is used to recharge the batteries.

No, an electricity is not a energy source, it is a method of transferring energy.

A hydrogen full cell 'creates' electricity from the reaction of the hydrogen and the oxygen and that energy is transferred to drive electric motors.

A battery powered car - like the Tesla - uses the battery to 'create' the electricity to transfer the energy to drive electric motors.

Both are ELECTRIC cars. You can power an electric car using a multitude of power sources, be it battery, hydrogen fuel cell, solar panels, a million hamsters driving dynamos from their hamster wheel. It is a common misconception (mostly due to poor journalism) that an electric car means a battery car. A battery car is just one type of electric car and the great thing about the electric car is that once you find a better type of power source for it the rest of the technology in the car will be compatible. Once you find a new type a battery, or we develop a new type of material that generates electric somehow - you just strip out of the Lithium Ion batteries, solar panels or hamsters and can stick the new technology in its place.

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Covalent
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Re: Formula E

Post by Covalent »


phfft...
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Re: Formula E

Post by phfft... »

Looks great. Nice to see 18 inch rims, too. This is what F1 will look like in a few years.

CarlPotter
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Re: Formula E

Post by CarlPotter »

That front wing is mental! Looks like a shark!

They seem to have toned down the aerodynamics, compared to F1, which could make things interesting.

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Covalent
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Re: Formula E

Post by Covalent »

Yeah I think it looks stunning. I hope the series will be broadcast where I live as I'm very interested in this series.

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Re: Formula E

Post by RaggedMan »

Covalent wrote:Yeah I think it looks stunning. I hope the series will be broadcast where I live as I'm very interested in this series.

I read that there will be lots of Internet coverage. Which makes sense because they're really trying to target a younger demographic that F1.
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CarlPotter
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Re: Formula E

Post by CarlPotter »

Hopefully they'll show the races live on YouTube, like they do (or so I'm told - haven't checked it out yet) with the DTM series.

Is there any confirmation of which drivers are signed up to this yet? I'd forgotten about Formula E completely until I saw this thread!

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Re: Formula E

Post by Seanie »

phfft... wrote:Looks great. Nice to see 18 inch rims, too. This is what F1 will look like in a few years.

Not likely.

Bernie said Michellin wanted low profile tyres and it was a stumbling block, then went on to say Pirelli have signed deals with all the teams anyway...
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bertisport
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Re: Formula E

Post by bertisport »

Throwing my two cents in:

Difficulty of 'cracking' hydrogen from water:
-can be @ 12Vdc @3.5amps to produce 16L/m @atmospheric pressure
-'drying' the above product can be done on 12v at 10amps
-compressing to 1.5bar for a Pressurised PLM = 12v, 8amps
All of which can is well within the scope of a household electricity supply. So if your Fuel station has a tap and a mains plug you have an infrstructure.

if you consider the total use of energy, finding, harvesting , pumping transporting, refining, transport, pumping crued oil based fuel the above seems like childs play.

one of the best 'crackable' fluid is actually Urine (wee - gherkin - tinkle) by product are hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen(plant fertilizer)

Someone mentioned the potential solent leakages from Hydrogen cracking plants. true if you use a solvent based 'hard and fast' method. but Are we having a very acute form of selective amnesia? ever stood near the town-sized refinery plants used for oil??? ever thought about what they kick out? do you want to take into account the transport accidents involved.
Also have a think about the calorific energy use. With efficiency in the 80-90% range on a brushless electric motor compared to and IC in the 20%'s I'm struggling to see the massively inefficency of electricity energy form. I will grant you the current method of containment is its limit(battery weight) but that will only be improved through R&D and the fastest form of R&D is competition.



But to the OP yes I am looking forward to seeing Formula E

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Covalent
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Re: Formula E

Post by Covalent »

Image

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Source: MTV3

Feral9x
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Re: Formula E

Post by Feral9x »

I hope they fix the whiny noise before the series launches. Doesn't sound good.

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Re: Formula E

Post by angrypirate »

specdecible wrote:
Race2win wrote:IMO, rather than Electric, they should have gone for Hydrogen power. We still use massive amounts of fossil fuel to generate it, not to mention the batteries that would be required to store it. Also in a compeitive environment, hopefully no mishaps happen. I really wouldnt want to see something like that Williams guy being electrocuted some years during the trial of KERS. This could prove fatal. More over, hydrogen technology has lot more scope for r&d. Having said that, from a customers point of view, this would benefit the road car technology in the future. But for me given a choice between electric or a hydrogen powered car, i'd take hydrogen power in a heart beat.

Not wanting to take this thread off topic but hydrogen has a long way to go before it's even anywhere near efficient enough for use in road cars, a long way to go to even measure up to electric cars infact, but thats enough of that.

I'm looking forwards to Formula E, if it has good and entertaining racing should it really matter how they're powered. It's not like they are trying to replace any other categories.

Nothing wrong with hydrogen fuel cell efficiency. The issue is storing a large voume of hydrogen safely.

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Re: Formula E

Post by RaggedMan »

What's with the odd "dive plane" looking wings amidships?
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martyF1
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Re: Formula E

Post by martyF1 »

Such a shame that this series has no constructors yet, with Mclaren providing all the cars. Would be amazing to see teams formed that were given an aerodynamic package/shell, but were allowed to use any battery/motor/ERS system they could fit in there as the only regulations.

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Re: Formula E

Post by minchy »

Just had a look at the official website, and the good points so far for me:

- Although there are no circuit layouts yet, the locations look really good. Worldwide spread, diverse cultures and cities of very different ages.
- Good race day format with 1 hour practice, quali and 1 hour race all on 1 day.
- Only 3 teams confirmed as yet, but good mix having 1 British, 1 American and 1 Chinese so far.
- After race concert (not confirmed) at all locations (better than in F1 where you get big shows at richer events like Singapore and a few measly unfamous bands till about 5pm at Silverstone.)
- Official online streaming.
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Re: Formula E

Post by Toby. »

I quite enjoy the whining of the electric engine (at least on that on board video). The pitch goes higher and higher until it sounds like it's going to burst. If it's as loud as I'd like it to be (though I fear it isn't) it would be mega with 24 cars on a track.

It'd be like something out of a science fiction film.
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raceman
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Re: Formula E

Post by raceman »

I don't think battery-only electric cars will be the wave of the future - at least until battery technology improves by an order of magnitude in terms of cost and raw material requirements. I'm not looking forward to lithium prices in the next few years (as Tesla raises output).

In my nonexpert opinion hydrogen represents a far better alternative energy storage medium than lithium bases batteries as it is cleaner to produce, faster to refuel, and has a much smaller natural resource footprint.

With this in mind, formula e doesn't do much for me. F1 next year is far more relevant to the industry, IMO, and represents the real bridge to the next generation.

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Re: Formula E

Post by shift »

Looks great to me.
If important drivers will join the challenge, there will be no reason to miss this show!

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runningman67
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Re: Formula E

Post by runningman67 »

Is Formula E an improved version of Preparation H.
If so, where do I get some? :blush:

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Re: Formula E

Post by scuderia_stevie »

So not an open wheeled racing series as such at the moment?
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minchy
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Re: Formula E

Post by minchy »

scuderia_stevie wrote:So not an open wheeled racing series as such at the moment?

If by 'at the moment' you mean right now, then no, it won't be starting until next year.

If by 'not an open wheeled racing series' you mean the cars aren't open wheeled, what the heck would you call them?

They just have added safety features to reduce the risk of a Webber/Valencia acident, very similar to the current Indycar's.
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Re: Formula E

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

F1 teams would have those front wing endplates to cut the drag from the front wheels if they could.
It makes sense for the FE car aero to be about low drag and energy efficiency as that's what the series is about promoting.

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