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I think his problem is more he is so used to the McLaren that the merc just doesn't compare, but surely this is what he was expecting moving to a lesser team performance wise, or did he think that maybe it wouldn't be as behind McLaren as it is?

But couldn't that just mean that he needs more wing for his desired set up?

potter84 wrote:I think his problem is more he is so used to the McLaren that the merc just doesn't compare, but surely this is what he was expecting moving to a lesser team performance wise, or did he think that maybe it wouldn't be as behind McLaren as it is?

In another interview he said that the W04 had less downforce than last years McLaren.

I was going to post it at the time but decided against.

Johnston wrote:

potter84 wrote:I think his problem is more he is so used to the McLaren that the merc just doesn't compare, but surely this is what he was expecting moving to a lesser team performance wise, or did he think that maybe it wouldn't be as behind McLaren as it is?

In another interview he said that the W04 had less downforce than last years McLaren.

I was going to post it at the time but decided against.

The point I am making is not that the Merc has less downforce than the McLaren - the point isn't even relating specifically to Hamilton. The point I am making is drivers going back to their aero guys and saying "You need to put more downforce on the car" is like telling a driver he has to "drive faster" or a photographer than he has to "take better photographs" or tell a chef he has to "cook better food"

The aero guys are constantly looking for more downforce, a driver telling them they need to find more is telling them "keep doing your job"

I was trying to give Potter some perspective A2H.

Hamilton is one of the few in a position where he can say that IMO. But will it push the engineers or just gherkin them off? I have no idea

Wait, which drivers can't say they would like more downforce?

I thought Lewis didn't need any...I thought he just bosses the oversteery car around and it makes him faster everywhere else?

Oh i agree to a degree with the op, but then engineers do tell drivers what to do as well i guess its a way of getting them going l, often we hear teams saying things like "good lap times you pushed well but we need another few tenths on the next few laps" or "push push push" surely unless you have been told to conserve fuel or tyres you would be pushing anyway? I appreciate you don't mean Hamilton in particular i just found it strange as Hamilton is usually one of those drivers who say they team does their job i do mine sort of thing. Maybe its a case of him really wanting to help in the building and development of a successful team so he is being more outspoken, wanting to be seen trying to steer the team in a certain direction. But your right just saying to someone i need this when that's their job is like what my grandma used to say "teaching someone to suck eggs" i guess.. I never did fully understand that saying

And no, saying you need more downforce is not like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for downforce, and there are all sorts of ways that vehicle dynamics play a role (no pun intended). For starters the "feeling" of downforce isn't only enhanced by finding more (that is, altering an equation/coefficent with drag and force and all those goodies), its also changed with how you're using the rest of the mechanical bits on the car. Dynamic ride height for example plays a massive role in how air moves over, under, and around the car.

ashley313 wrote:And no, saying you need more downforce is not like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for downforce, and there are all sorts of ways that vehicle dynamics play a role (no pun intended). For starters the "feeling" of downforce isn't only enhanced by finding more (that is, altering an equation/coefficent with drag and force and all those goodies), its also changed with how you're using the rest of the mechanical bits on the car. Dynamic ride height for example plays a massive role in how air moves over, under, and around the car.

so what your saying is Hamilton is too much of a simpleton to set his car up correctly/ too many buttons I'm joking before any Hamilton fans threaten to hunt me down!

ATH - Hamilton won't just go back to the factory and say "we need more downforce"...

NO

He'll go back and tell the guys WHERE they need more downforce. Both where on the car (front end or back end) and when in terms of driving (slow corners, fast corners, etc).

Thing is, he's not gonna (unless he splurts it out) tell the world exactly what is wrong with the Merc car, cos then everyone else will know. Instead he'll keep it simple in interviews - "more downforce would be good"

Kind of like your analogy of the team telling the driver to drive faster. They won't just tell him that, but will tell him where he has to drive faster, or gain more time, etc...

potter84 wrote:

ashley313 wrote:And no, saying you need more downforce is not like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for downforce, and there are all sorts of ways that vehicle dynamics play a role (no pun intended). For starters the "feeling" of downforce isn't only enhanced by finding more (that is, altering an equation/coefficent with drag and force and all those goodies), its also changed with how you're using the rest of the mechanical bits on the car. Dynamic ride height for example plays a massive role in how air moves over, under, and around the car.

so what your saying is Hamilton is too much of a simpleton to set his car up correctly/ too many buttons I'm joking before any Hamilton fans threaten to hunt me down!

No, I'm saying that Lewis saying he thinks the car lacks downforce doesn't have to mean the designers must go to work on aero alone. Sometimes the key to making your aero work as you want it to is by working on other setup areas, or just increasing the adjustability of those setup areas to find the window where it works best. A lot of teams this year have made changes to their 2012 designs just to expand the range in which they can make adjustments to find a happy place.

Its not really his job to set the car up correctly anyway. His job is to effectively communicate what he feels and what he would like to feel, and then match that up with the data. The engineers and designers must extrapolate from that what changes to make.

ashley313 wrote:And no, saying you need more downforce is not like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for downforce, and there are all sorts of ways that vehicle dynamics play a role (no pun intended). For starters the "feeling" of downforce isn't only enhanced by finding more (that is, altering an equation/coefficent with drag and force and all those goodies), its also changed with how you're using the rest of the mechanical bits on the car. Dynamic ride height for example plays a massive role in how air moves over, under, and around the car.

Yes, but the mechanical side of the car is not the responsibility of the aero guys.

Johnston wrote:I was trying to give Potter some perspective A2H.

Apologies, misunderstood your point.

Gothalamide wrote:ATH - Hamilton won't just go back to the factory and say "we need more downforce"...

NO

He'll go back and tell the guys WHERE they need more downforce. Both where on the car (front end or back end) and when in terms of driving (slow corners, fast corners, etc).

Thing is, he's not gonna (unless he splurts it out) tell the world exactly what is wrong with the Merc car, cos then everyone else will know. Instead he'll keep it simple in interviews - "more downforce would be good"

Kind of like your analogy of the team telling the driver to drive faster. They won't just tell him that, but will tell him where he has to drive faster, or gain more time, etc...

Of course he's going to tell the aero guys where they need to focus on finding more downforce, that's obvious. Whether or not the Mercedes was lacking in downforce compared to competition a driver will always be refining the balance of the car in any area, aero included. But by saying "I've told the aero guys they need to find more downforce" implies there is a time where they don't need to find more downforce. Formula 1 cars will always want more downforce.

If he had said "the area the Mercedes needs to improve the most is in finding more downforce so I've spoken to the Ross/Technical Director and told them to focus on this" it would make more sense. The aero guys are constantly focused on achieving that goal, however the Technical Director is responsible for prioritising the development of the car so he would be the one who needs to know where to focus the efforts and give the aero team more support.

They all work together, extremely closely. You can't pen one without being conscious of and involved in the other.

As a driver who takes a keen interest in every aspect of the car, Lewis will be able to offer some valuable insights to the Mercedes boys on the workings of the McLaren setup. That said, due to the obvious chassis and aero differences, there wouldn't be much that could transfer, even conceptually.

He's essentially stepped out of one of the best cars on the grid and jumped into one of the most underwhelming, so the early stages are bound to be a bit of a culture shock. I'm sure he will get the best out of the machinery though, that's why they're paying him handsomely, and perhaps like Alonso during the second stint at Renault, he will find performance from the car that wouldn't otherwise be there.

As for getting more aero, maybe it's time to bring back these:

Agreed that it was just a rather obvious statement. I see it is a polite way of telling the aero engineers that the car needs improving. Clearly in Lewis' case here the car has less downforce that he has been used to in the previous year (and might well have been the case with Button in 2010 as well) and I suppose this would have been the first thing on his mind when stepping out of the car and going for an interview.

Ultimately while the drivers will know how to set up the car and the effect of changing various wing settings, none of them have any technical background in aerodynamics so would be unable to offer any advice to the engineers on how to find more downforce, other than the obvious fact that more downforce is required. As it always will be.

I bet a lot of them know quite a bit about how aero works. Wouldn't you, as a driver, ask how the latest part works, and wouldn't you, as an engineer or designer, want to explain to the driver what the purpose of a new part is, the theory behind it? Obviously none of them are coming in from free practice and saying "Hey guys, I think we should put a duct over here to help this problem," but I bet they know the overall concept for their car and what the more significant bits do, or are intended to do. No need to get into any of that in answering questions for the press though.

Adaemus wrote:As a driver who takes a keen interest in every aspect of the car, Lewis will be able to offer some valuable insights to the Mercedes boys on the workings of the McLaren setup. That said, due to the obvious chassis and aero differences, there wouldn't be much that could transfer, even conceptually.

He's essentially stepped out of one of the best cars on the grid and jumped into one of the most underwhelming, so the early stages are bound to be a bit of a culture shock. I'm sure he will get the best out of the machinery though, that's why they're paying him handsomely, and perhaps like Alonso during the second stint at Renault, he will find performance from the car that wouldn't otherwise be there.

As for getting more aero, maybe it's time to bring back these:

Am I the only one thinking that Pastor would have his version of that car with targets sights added in the middle of that extra bit - so he can aim at cars properly...

Pretty sure he wouldn't say to the engineers, can I get more downforce. It will just be something he says to the cameras, making it simple for everyone to understand the car needs to be better

ashley313 wrote:I bet a lot of them know quite a bit about how aero works. Wouldn't you, as a driver, ask how the latest part works, and wouldn't you, as an engineer or designer, want to explain to the driver what the purpose of a new part is, the theory behind it? Obviously none of them are coming in from free practice and saying "Hey guys, I think we should put a duct over here to help this problem," but I bet they know the overall concept for their car and what the more significant bits do, or are intended to do. No need to get into any of that in answering questions for the press though.

100% agree.

Except he's been asked to test the car and give his opinion. If the car was eating the tires, would he be lambasted for saying they need to sort the tires?

No team can do everything all the time, even Brawn confessed that last year they did not have enough resources to address all their problems, and they got their priorities wrong. All Hamilton is doing is adding his input on what area requires higher priority, that as a driver, this is what he considers the most important thing to address.

Got to remember, Lewis has said that in an interview and is words for the camera.

I am sure Mercedes were very keen for Lewis to explain where their car was weak and strong in relation to the class of the field Mclaren he drove last year.

The same with Alonso when he joined Mclaren in late 2006 and drove their car, one thing he said it lacked massively to the Renault was low end traction and he said he understood why Kimi was not in the title race.

If a driver is coming from a better car, theres a lot for a team to learn where they are weak and strong.

Out of interest does anyone know when a driver goes to a new team is there a clause by the old team stating they cannot share certain information with the new team.

Say Vettel went to Mclaren is there anything stopping him sharing everything he knows at Red Bull and the design secrets helping mclaren make their car better?

If you put the rest of the quote up it makes more sense, instead of picking 2 - 3 words from an entire interview.

In terms of moving to another team, you can probably tell them everything you remember but not produce any paperwork gained from a suspicious manner from your previous place of employment.

Engineers and aero guys have to go on like a 6month garden leave period, meaning they wont know any of the new developments so most of their info is not as useful

celticfc482 wrote:Out of interest does anyone know when a driver goes to a new team is there a clause by the old team stating they cannot share certain information with the new team.

Say Vettel went to Mclaren is there anything stopping him sharing everything he knows at Red Bull and the design secrets helping mclaren make their car better?

Of course not! but I am sure he (SV) doesn't know the real ins and outs of the tricks they use anyway.....I mean, it will just be a case of press this button to get more downforce, type of thing for the most part - or in the case of the off throttle blowing exhaust, he just gets 'told' it's happening and he can go round the corner faster?

celticfc482 wrote:Out of interest does anyone know when a driver goes to a new team is there a clause by the old team stating they cannot share certain information with the new team.

Say Vettel went to Mclaren is there anything stopping him sharing everything he knows at Red Bull and the design secrets helping mclaren make their car better?

I have never heard of such a confidentiality clause for a driver or even employee. If teams want to keep ex-staff quiet temporarily they put them on "gardening leave" before starting their new post.

It is one thing that keeps F1 a relatively close formula with nothing staying secret for too long.

Yeah, it's fairly easy to assume that Hamilton knows what he's talking about. He's not saying : "Add downforce, I don't care about drag" - What he's saying is: "add more downforce and reduce drag".

FringeUK wrote:

celticfc482 wrote:Out of interest does anyone know when a driver goes to a new team is there a clause by the old team stating they cannot share certain information with the new team.

Say Vettel went to Mclaren is there anything stopping him sharing everything he knows at Red Bull and the design secrets helping mclaren make their car better?

Of course not! but I am sure he (SV) doesn't know the real ins and outs of the tricks they use anyway.....I mean, it will just be a case of press this button to get more downforce, type of thing for the most part - or in the case of the off throttle blowing exhaust, he just gets 'told' it's happening and he can go round the corner faster?

I'd bet the house on Seb knowing exactly have off throttle blowing works. Anyone who understands how engines work and what the shape of an F1 car is knows how it works. Not a mystery, not a trick.

i'm sure that when a driver says he is asking for more downforce, it is just a simplified version of what he wants that he tells the media, when speaking to his engineers i would be certain they are more specific about what they want in regards to aero performance

Analysing every word said during interview doesn't make any sense. Look at nonsense that Perez is talking. I'm sure that internally Hamilton gives more constructive feedback. He is never going to tell us the truth about testing. Every team is sandbaging during testing. Teams officials will always tell you that they lack something, even if they feel that they have the best car.

Surely driver knows to a certain extent what developments are going onto the car and how the main parts work.

ie, If Newey has something special on the Red Bull which gives it alot more downforce compared to everyone else, surely Vettel will know about it and an overview of how it works. I am sure if he told that to the development team at a new team they could then figure out how it works.

celticfc482 wrote:Surely driver knows to a certain extent what developments are going onto the car and how the main parts work.

ie, If Newey has something special on the Red Bull which gives it alot more downforce compared to everyone else, surely Vettel will know about it and an overview of how it works. I am sure if he told that to the development team at a new team they could then figure out how it works.

ashley313 wrote:And no, saying you need more downforce is not like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for downforce, and there are all sorts of ways that vehicle dynamics play a role (no pun intended). For starters the "feeling" of downforce isn't only enhanced by finding more (that is, altering an equation/coefficent with drag and force and all those goodies), its also changed with how you're using the rest of the mechanical bits on the car. Dynamic ride height for example plays a massive role in how air moves over, under, and around the car.

And yes, saying you need more downforce IS like saying a driver needs to drive faster. There are all sorts of areas for driver improvement, and there are all sorts of ways that human dynamics play a role, including the cucumber factor. For starters the "feeling" of the hairs standing up the back of your neck isn't only caused by someone named A. Senna. Or is it?

ashley313 wrote:

FringeUK wrote:

celticfc482 wrote:Out of interest does anyone know when a driver goes to a new team is there a clause by the old team stating they cannot share certain information with the new team.

Say Vettel went to Mclaren is there anything stopping him sharing everything he knows at Red Bull and the design secrets helping mclaren make their car better?

Of course not! but I am sure he (SV) doesn't know the real ins and outs of the tricks they use anyway.....I mean, it will just be a case of press this button to get more downforce, type of thing for the most part - or in the case of the off throttle blowing exhaust, he just gets 'told' it's happening and he can go round the corner faster?

I'd bet the house on Seb knowing exactly have off throttle blowing works. Anyone who understands how engines work and what the shape of an F1 car is knows how it works. Not a mystery, not a trick.

Well, I only have a couple of degrees in engineering, but nothing to do with aero or CFD - so I'm probably not qualified to comment on how much a driver can understand about how such things works in great detail. Suffice to say, that I myself wouldn't have clue as to the ins and outs of the workings of such aero effects (even though i have built some planes and designed sail boat rigs - solid wing rigs too!) when it is coming out of an exhaust at a few hundred feet per second (or whatever).....I am pleased you know that the modern F1 driver is so well versed in these details...I stand corrected....
Perhaps one day, if I ever meet Mr Vettel, he can give me a quick lesson in the difference between turbulent and stratified flow regimes of a hot gas and the specific gas flow speeds and exhaust diameters that can lead to the different flow types, along with the way such flows change with external airflow influences, the recommended material characteristics required for the vanes, etc, to deal with the high gas temperatures involved, etc, etc!
Shoot - and I thought drivers just drove the darn things.........

That's not knowing how off throttle blowing works, that's knowing how to make it work better. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had a pretty good handle on both. Anyone who can read a couple of issues of Racecar Engineering or Race Tech can have a pretty good handle on them. You don't need to be a designer, an engineer, or an aerodynamicist to understand such things...which is different from coming up with design in the first place. An example of WHY he'd know about such things: Say you've chosen to decrease the diameter of your exhaust outlets to speed up the velocity of the air coming out and make better use of your aero concept rearward - since you'll be losing some power in the tradeoff, its something you want to explain to your driver as it could have an effect on how he must drive the car from a power, torque, and revs standpoint. A pretty high level of understanding is necessary to get the most out of a Formula 1 car. Yes, instinctive drivers can hop in and be quick, but the battle over the last few tenths can lie in the data.

ashley313 wrote:...but the battle over the last few tenths can lie in the data.

Which is why F1 teams employ engineers to review data in minute detail.

I might take you up on betting your house that Seb knows, and I quote, "exactly" how off throttle blowing works.
Understanding theory is one thing, practice is much more detailed. Do you have a nice house?

Engineers don't drive the car. There's no point in them understanding the data if they aren't using it to help the drivers get the best out of the tool they've crafted for them.

If I gave you a new computer program with a similar user interface to other commonly used ones, could you figure out generally how to use it by clicking around and exploring, using your experience with other programs to help guide you? Yes, probably. If I gave you a new computer program and sat the software guy who made it down next to you to explain in detail how the program works, would you be able to use it more effectively and more efficiently than just finding your way around? I hope so. Then, what if the software guy asked you for feedback to improve the program? Would your feedback be more useful or less useful if you understood the concepts behind the different features of the program and what he was trying to accomplish?