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Just caught up with Webber's last BBC blog and have to say he's disarmingly honest and uncompromising when talking about his former friend Lance Armstrong. It's taken me a long time to warm to Webber for some reason, but talk like this is admirable. I've seen a few drivers offer a comment on the controversy, but only when asked and only the usual stock corporate response, nothing seemingly heartfelt. I guess it might ruffle sponsors' feathers to talk like that or to admit an association with him (which many had). Massive kudos to Webber for laying out the whole story of their relationship and offering genuine and forthright critical opinion.

It struck me that Webber mentions Contador as being one of the cheats. I don't follow cycling in any way but I'm aware Alonso is/was good friends with him, what's the story there? Is Contador considered a cheat? (I see from wikipedia that there's a cloud of suspicion around him but when you don't know the sport and history it's hard to tell what that means in real life.) Are they still friends, if so presumably because Contador has not been found guilty of anything?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21240896

Good good good read. Typical Webber, no surprises there.

Balibari wrote:Is Contador considered a cheat? (I see from wikipedia that there's a cloud of suspicion around him but when you don't know the sport and history it's hard to tell what that means in real life.) Are they still friends, if so presumably because Contador has not been found guilty of anything?

Contador is somewhere in a grey zone if you ask me.
Mind you, he has been found guilty and he has been stripped of results (one of which a Giro win).

Thanks for drawing my attention to Webber's views Balibari. On Monday, as Dr. Fuentes's trial started, I was surprised to hear on the news here in Belgium (remember, Armstrong's long-time boss was a Belgian cyclist...) that the doctor had F1 driver(s) among his "patients". (I'm not sure I heard driver or drivers.) I couldn't help but wonder.
What didn't surprise me in reading this article, is that Armstrong was interested in Schumacher's methods. One thing they had in common was ruthlesness. Something I don't believe is the same as the will to win, in fact I believe it undermines a competitive spirit. But then, and this is where I feel the article falls short, Webber didn't touch upon the difference between sport and industry. Which I fear has long been decided in favour of the latter in both F1 and cycling. Money, money and more money.

As for Mark Webber, I dearly wish he still gets a shot at the title. Is there any driver out there who is more honest and honourable?

I don't see where Webber suggests Contador is a drug cheat. He simply lists a number of other riders that could have done better without Armstrong around.

I feel rather sad that the wonderful story about how Armstrong overcame such adversity has ended up being so badly tainted. He didn't know where to draw the line when it came to his ruthless determination. You can't turn the clock back though, it's better to just learn the lessons and avoid repetitions. I can imagine how Webber must have felt when Armstrong did a no-show at Monaco, but it's still worth taking inspiration from what he achieved recovering from cancer like he did.

Webber is a bit like Räikkönen in that he can't be bothered with all the bulls hit. Sometimes less really is more. Pity there aren't more like that. I like Hamilton a lot, but most times when he's being interviewed, you only have to look at his eyes to see that he's presenting himself rather than saying what he's really thinking. It's hardly worth listening to, but when the likes of Räikkönen or Webber speak, everyone takes notice.

Fiki wrote: As for Mark Webber, I dearly wish he still gets a shot at the title. Is there any driver out there who is more honest and honourable?

Well, Räikkönen must come pretty close.

sixwheeler wrote:I don't see where Webber suggests Contador is a drug cheat. He simply lists a number of other riders that could have done better without Armstrong around.

You're not reading that right, you should re-read. He's talking about unnamed clean drivers that didn't cheat and could have stood up to the ones he's mentioning. All the names he mentions have been proven guilty.

mds wrote:

sixwheeler wrote:I don't see where Webber suggests Contador is a drug cheat. He simply lists a number of other riders that could have done better without Armstrong around.

You're not reading that right, you should re-read. He's talking about unnamed clean drivers that didn't cheat and could have stood up to the ones he's mentioning. All the names he mentions have been proven guilty.

Yes, you're quite right, sorry.

I read it like this:-

We'll never know but some of them on their day could have challenged the likes of Armstrong. Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich, Alexander Vinokourov, Alberto Contador, Richard Virenque and so on.

My mistake.

I think it's pretty much correct, too.

I thought the cutout on the left side was interesting too, where Benson talks about how racers could benefit from doping. Thinking about that suddenly makes me very sympathetic toward cycle racing fans. Imagine if it was revealed Schumacher was doping throughout his reign at the top? I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing, I remember reading somewhere that MotoGP was signed up to the WADA system but I don't know if that's correct. If one of the main reasons for doping is to aid recovery, bike racers must be front of the line in terms of sports people who could benefit. Not suggesting for a moment anyone does it, it's just a dark cloud I'd never considered could effect motorsport.

Balibari wrote:I thought the cutout on the left side was interesting too, where Benson talks about how racers could benefit from doping. Thinking about that suddenly makes me very sympathetic toward cycle racing fans. Imagine if it was revealed Schumacher was doping throughout his reign at the top? I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing, I remember reading somewhere that MotoGP was signed up to the WADA system but I don't know if that's correct. If one of the main reasons for doping is to aid recovery, bike racers must be front of the line in terms of sports people who could benefit. Not suggesting for a moment anyone does it, it's just a dark cloud I'd never considered could effect motorsport.

Why would a driver dope?

I don't think it would change much in his abilities. And don't they go through drug tests? I have no idea if they do.

SchumieRules wrote:

Balibari wrote:I thought the cutout on the left side was interesting too, where Benson talks about how racers could benefit from doping. Thinking about that suddenly makes me very sympathetic toward cycle racing fans. Imagine if it was revealed Schumacher was doping throughout his reign at the top? I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing, I remember reading somewhere that MotoGP was signed up to the WADA system but I don't know if that's correct. If one of the main reasons for doping is to aid recovery, bike racers must be front of the line in terms of sports people who could benefit. Not suggesting for a moment anyone does it, it's just a dark cloud I'd never considered could effect motorsport.

Why would a driver dope?

I don't think it would change much in his abilities. And don't they go through drug tests? I have no idea if they do.

From the Link

Among these would be saline infusions for pre- and post-race hydration; plasma regulators for thermoregulation and certain stimulants for alertness and reaction time.

Although muscle bulk is not a requirement - lean, fast-reacting muscles are more effective - steroids and cortisone could be helpful in accelerating muscle and bone repair in the event of an injury.

Some steroids can also promote aggression and fearlessness, which could improve performance.

Interestingly it was Webber last year that said they should be tested more.

I wonder if he has a few suspicions.

Balibari wrote:I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing

They are tested very often. However, the problem is that the tests are always behind. A new drug gets developed, sportsmen will use it but tests can't identify them yet. By the time the tests are up to date, a new drug pops up.
This can be evidenced by the fact that blood samples that were negative 15 years ago suddenly can be positive when tested with today's tests.

The biological passport also helps. They take and document the blood profile of a sportsman so they can compare their blood, when tested, with the documented blood profile. If the blood sample doesn't match with the profile, they have an indication something's wrong.

Fiki wrote: I couldn't help but wonder.
What didn't surprise me in reading this article, is that Armstrong was interested in Schumacher's methods. One thing they had in common was ruthlesness. Something I don't believe is the same as the will to win,

... the first thing that came to my minds is cheat by using drugs ...
... or base their success on a lie ...

Johnston wrote:

SchumieRules wrote:

Balibari wrote:I thought the cutout on the left side was interesting too, where Benson talks about how racers could benefit from doping. Thinking about that suddenly makes me very sympathetic toward cycle racing fans. Imagine if it was revealed Schumacher was doping throughout his reign at the top? I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing, I remember reading somewhere that MotoGP was signed up to the WADA system but I don't know if that's correct. If one of the main reasons for doping is to aid recovery, bike racers must be front of the line in terms of sports people who could benefit. Not suggesting for a moment anyone does it, it's just a dark cloud I'd never considered could effect motorsport.

Why would a driver dope?

I don't think it would change much in his abilities. And don't they go through drug tests? I have no idea if they do.

From the Link

Among these would be saline infusions for pre- and post-race hydration; plasma regulators for thermoregulation and certain stimulants for alertness and reaction time.

Although muscle bulk is not a requirement - lean, fast-reacting muscles are more effective - steroids and cortisone could be helpful in accelerating muscle and bone repair in the event of an injury.

Some steroids can also promote aggression and fearlessness, which could improve performance.

Interestingly it was Webber last year that said they should be tested more.

I wonder if he has a few suspicions.

I read it afterwards.

Although the reaction stimulation makes sense, it would probably be obvious if a driver was on something.

SchumieRules wrote:

Balibari wrote:I thought the cutout on the left side was interesting too, where Benson talks about how racers could benefit from doping. Thinking about that suddenly makes me very sympathetic toward cycle racing fans. Imagine if it was revealed Schumacher was doping throughout his reign at the top? I wonder how stringent the tests are in bike racing, I remember reading somewhere that MotoGP was signed up to the WADA system but I don't know if that's correct. If one of the main reasons for doping is to aid recovery, bike racers must be front of the line in terms of sports people who could benefit. Not suggesting for a moment anyone does it, it's just a dark cloud I'd never considered could effect motorsport.

Why would a driver dope?

I don't think it would change much in his abilities. And don't they go through drug tests? I have no idea if they do.

Drivers are tested fairly regularly by WADA, including during the off season too. But as we've seen in cycling, testing is no guarantee of rumbling someone who's at it, at least not immediately.

As Benson explains, drivers could benefit from 'saline infusions for pre- and post-race hydration; plasma regulators for thermoregulation and certain stimulants for alertness and reaction time.' So it seems doping could offer a driver an advantage, though I'd imagine nowhere near as profound as cyclists or sprinters might experience. As I suggested, maybe injury recovery in motorcycle racing is the most likely way doping might manifest itself in motorsport.

It's not something I'd ever seriously considered, and I'd still assume it doesn't happen, but it's an issue I'm glad the FIA seem to be taking seriously.

I follow Webber on twitter, and he posts frequently. He has a very strong moral compass, and sincerely believes in doing the right thing. He embraces honesty and fair play.

One benefit of performance enhancing drugs is that they allow your body to recover quicker. Normally for a young and healthy person, it takes over 24 hours to recover. That is why most (clean) bodybuilders alternate body groups, one day core, the next upper body, the next lower body (for example). Each body group has over 48 hours to heal and recover. But if you are pumping juice into your body, you can work all the groups, every day. It's like compressing six months of hard training into two months.

How may this apply in such disciplines as motorsport? Hypothetically, in a back to back race separated by just 7 days, if you are juicing, you arrive at the next event stronger, more refreshed, and alert than someone still a bit shagged from the previous race.

But I don't believe it's done, all Formula One drivers are incredibly healthy, and follow a strict regime of diet and exercise. They take great efforts to take care of their bodies and stay healthy. And the consequences of getting caught are not worth the risk.

Blinky McSquinty wrote:I follow Webber on twitter, and he posts frequently. He has a very strong moral compass, and sincerely believes in doing the right thing. He embraces honesty and fair play.

One benefit of performance enhancing drugs is that they allow your body to recover quicker. Normally for a young and healthy person, it takes over 24 hours to recover. That is why most (clean) bodybuilders alternate body groups, one day core, the next upper body, the next lower body (for example). Each body group has over 48 hours to heal and recover. But if you are pumping juice into your body, you can work all the groups, every day. It's like compressing six months of hard training into two months.

How may this apply in such disciplines as motorsport? Hypothetically, in a back to back race separated by just 7 days, if you are juicing, you arrive at the next event stronger, more refreshed, and alert than someone still a bit shagged from the previous race.

But I don't believe it's done, all Formula One drivers are incredibly healthy, and follow a strict regime of diet and exercise. They take great efforts to take care of their bodies and stay healthy. And the consequences of getting caught are not worth the risk.

The way you make it sound, the benefits are pretty feeble considering it's illegal.

More plausible, but still a bit ridiculous, is using Cocaine or something. I once spoke to a guy in a pub who swore blind (fairly drunk he was) that David Coulthard used Cocaine back in the day (I think he meant the 90s)

Balibari wrote:
Drivers are tested fairly regularly by WADA, including during the off season too. But as we've seen in cycling, testing is no guarantee of rumbling someone who's at it, at least not immediately.

As Benson explains, drivers could benefit from 'saline infusions for pre- and post-race hydration; plasma regulators for thermoregulation and certain stimulants for alertness and reaction time.' So it seems doping could offer a driver an advantage, though I'd imagine nowhere near as profound as cyclists or sprinters might experience. As I suggested, maybe injury recovery in motorcycle racing is the most likely way doping might manifest itself in motorsport.

It's not something I'd ever seriously considered, and I'd still assume it doesn't happen, but it's an issue I'm glad the FIA seem to be taking seriously.

going by a few things said recently I get the impression that the checks in F1 are few and far between .

From Webber

"I've always been championing the idea to do more of it, but the FIA have never really been that strong on it,"

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=157

Eva09 wrote:

Blinky McSquinty wrote:I follow Webber on twitter, and he posts frequently. He has a very strong moral compass, and sincerely believes in doing the right thing. He embraces honesty and fair play.

One benefit of performance enhancing drugs is that they allow your body to recover quicker. Normally for a young and healthy person, it takes over 24 hours to recover. That is why most (clean) bodybuilders alternate body groups, one day core, the next upper body, the next lower body (for example). Each body group has over 48 hours to heal and recover. But if you are pumping juice into your body, you can work all the groups, every day. It's like compressing six months of hard training into two months.

How may this apply in such disciplines as motorsport? Hypothetically, in a back to back race separated by just 7 days, if you are juicing, you arrive at the next event stronger, more refreshed, and alert than someone still a bit shagged from the previous race.

But I don't believe it's done, all Formula One drivers are incredibly healthy, and follow a strict regime of diet and exercise. They take great efforts to take care of their bodies and stay healthy. And the consequences of getting caught are not worth the risk.

The way you make it sound, the benefits are pretty feeble considering it's illegal.

More plausible, but still a bit ridiculous, is using Cocaine or something. I once spoke to a guy in a pub who swore blind (fairly drunk he was) that David Coulthard used Cocaine back in the day (I think he meant the 90s)

Nobody seems to mention/remember it nowadays but an FIA or team medic once wrote a book claiming half the grid regularly did coke (for performance reasons) before races. I can't remember who it was, it was maybe 10 years ago, and I can't begin to imagine how agitated fiddling, unpredictable behaviour and talking *Definitely True* would improve your performance... though I'm starting to wonder if Briatore was ever tested. There was a lot of talk about investigations and then nothing. Presumably it was just some minor figure looking for publicity for his book.

Using cocaine doesn't always make everyone agitated, fiddling, unpredictable or talk a lot. Anyone who uses it often knows exactly how much helps, and how much is noticeable.

I think it a bit funny that so many think Mark has such a strict moral compass and always does the right thing. There have been many times I've thought "wow, what an donkey" about Mark, and no, they weren't anything to do with team orders on track.

^^ Like?

After reading a couple of these recent books on drugs in cycling it got me to wondering a lot more about drugs in F1. I mean, it's pretty clear that doping is huge across most sports, much more than I'd have guessed. And in a sport that's willing to spend millions on a performance upgrade to a car worth a few tenths, wouldn't there be pressure to make the driver himself an utterly reliable, perfect machine?

But is there a drug suitable for F1?

I know I've read that both Sebastian and Mark don't drink coffee, for example, before racing. Neither drink much alcohol either I understand. So it's hard to imagine them snorting coke for a boost.

What about EPO? Well an F1 race is physically taxing, but still only two hours so endurance drugs like this are unlikely to make much of a difference. That sort of drug is much more useful in cycling, triathlon even tennis.

HGH, testosterone? Doubtful, both are more about muscle tone I think and that's not that helpful to an F1 driver that needs to be as light as possible.

Ideally the drug would need to be something that helped concentration, focus. I'm not sure if this exists.

Find Webber refreshingly honest, something which a lot of the other drivers clearly lack. His twitter is good as you get a sense of what his life is like outside of the F1 world as opposed to the others who can seem quite boring. (Alonso only tweets about training and how hard he is working while Button's only interest seems to be triathlons). At least with Webber he comments on quite a few things and there is no PR talk!

Blinky McSquinty wrote: But I don't believe it's done, all Formula One drivers are incredibly healthy, and follow a strict regime of diet and exercise. They take great efforts to take care of their bodies and stay healthy. And the consequences of getting caught are not worth the risk.

Blinky, I don't think we can rule out the possibility based on this premise. Bike racers are incredibly healthy and follow a strict regime of diet and exercise as well...and face the consequences of getting caught as well.

I think that it would be foolhardy for the sport, or for us, to assume that it does not happen in F1, as some drivers in other racing disciplines have already been caught. I have no idea of how stringently F1 polices drug use and it's testing, but I would not be one bit surprised if one or more of our drivers have used drugs in the hope that it could help them in some manner or another.

Why would F1 be exempt when most other sports are not?

Body-altering drugs aren't much use to F1 drivers, and the consequences of using mind-altering drugs while driving a lethal weapon around at triple digit speeds are much greater than while running up a field, across a court, or riding a bicycle. Although that doesn't stop stupid people I guess. I can think of nothing dumber than doping up a 1200 lb animal and then getting on it, but thats the norm in the equestrian world.

Is there really that much of a benefit to an F1 driver using drugs? It's not like cycling where a competitor's performance is decided solely by his physical capability. F1 is much more reliant on the car and therefore I don't think the risk is worth the reward.

This says something about cycling I suppose, but the main issue with Armstrong isn't so much that he personally took drugs. More the scale of the conspiracy. The way he dealt with clean riders, those around him and people (who correctly) accused him.

Cheating is bad. But in a deeply flawed, very competitive environment with so much to gain it is at least understandable why some (or indeed many ) cannot resist the temptation to cheat. So maybe a rider that has cheated should not be totally written off as a person.

However, Armstrong's behaviour was just on a totally different level. Utterly disgusting and not really comparable.

Double post

All professional athletes juice, most notibly cyclists. Even all F1 drivers are on something. So there's no high horse regarding athletes accusing other athletes of "cheating" or being on something.

With regards to Armstrong, he did the worst thing imaginable. He admitted to cheating which just ruins your reputation and your accomplishments for the rest of his life.

Keeping coffee and alcohol consumption to a minimum would probably be because they are both diuretics, and the last thing you want is to be dehydrated going into a race. Alcohol is also a depressant so not good for keeping you up & focused when out of the car when there is still a lot of work to be done.

As for using cocain as a stimulant, aside from the regular legal issues, accurate dosing would be hard to achieve because it would be cut with different substances and at different ratios depending on the batch even if you always used the same dealer.

Governments have fed stimulants to fighter pilots, and special forces in order to try to keep them alert and focused for extended amounts of time, but I don't think there was ever a proven benefit from it, and I even think some friendly fire incidents were blamed on them during the Iraq war. This is something that I could see a driver trying, but I think their active ingredients are things that are tested for and wouldn't be too much help. Of course doesn't mean that someone looking to gain an edge wouldn't try it anyway.

All professional athletes juice, most notibly cyclists. Even all F1 drivers are on something. So there's no high horse regarding athletes accusing other athletes of "cheating" or being on something.

With regards to Armstrong, he did the worst thing imaginable. He admitted to cheating which just ruins your reputation and your accomplishments for the rest of his life.

Dalemac wrote:Maybe that's the cause of Grosjean and Maldonado's accidents?

LOL - that's exactly the thought that crossed my mind when I was reading this speculation, but I didn't dare say it.

I dont think the word " slams " is the right word for it.....

Balibari wrote: I can't remember who it was, it was maybe 10 years ago, and I can't begin to imagine how agitated fiddling, unpredictable behaviour and talking *Definitely True* would improve your performance... though I'm starting to wonder if Briatore was ever tested. There was a lot of talk about investigations and then nothing. Presumably it was just some minor figure looking for publicity for his book.

Montoya? Oh deer!

"Like a horse with horns"

Maybe they need to test engineers too

I'd be genuinely surprised if the drivers were taking cocaine before races. It only lasts for a short time before more is required so the effect would drop off during the race and depending on the individual's sensitivity they'd also be dealing with a comedown. I suppose if they found a way to do it during the race that would make for interesting onboards.

If drivers in F1 are doping then it would most likely be to improve injury recovery time or, at a pinch, prescription drugs for alertness.

Personally I've wondered more about the engineers and mechanics who often work around the clock at race weekends, or used to before the curfew came in. F1 is governed by WADA, but I don't know if that extends to the other personnel.

sixwheeler wrote:

Fiki wrote: As for Mark Webber, I dearly wish he still gets a shot at the title. Is there any driver out there who is more honest and honourable?

Well, Räikkönen must come pretty close.

Indeed.

Eva09 wrote:

Fiki wrote: I couldn't help but wonder.
What didn't surprise me in reading this article, is that Armstrong was interested in Schumacher's methods. One thing they had in common was ruthlesness. Something I don't believe is the same as the will to win,

... the first thing that came to my minds is cheat by using drugs ...
... or base their success on a lie ...

There was a thread on a comparison of Armstrong and Schumacher on the old forum. Your remark reminded me of that.

Fishy wrote:All professional athletes juice, most notibly cyclists. Even all F1 drivers are on something. So there's no high horse regarding athletes accusing other athletes of "cheating" or being on something.

With regards to Armstrong, he did the worst thing imaginable. He admitted to cheating which just ruins your reputation and your accomplishments for the rest of his life.

And you know that because you have met all of them?

That's at least disrespectful to a lot of athletes.

kai_ wrote:I'd be genuinely surprised if the drivers were taking cocaine before races. It only lasts for a short time before more is required so the effect would drop off during the race and depending on the individual's sensitivity they'd also be dealing with a comedown. I suppose if they found a way to do it during the race that would make for interesting onboards.

If drivers in F1 are doping then it would most likely be to improve injury recovery time or, at a pinch, prescription drugs for alertness.

Personally I've wondered more about the engineers and mechanics who often work around the clock at race weekends, or used to before the curfew came in. F1 is governed by WADA, but I don't know if that extends to the other personnel.

Yep well said, it would more likely be prescription amphetamines of some type

sixwheeler wrote: I feel rather sad that the wonderful story about how Armstrong overcame such adversity has ended up being so badly tainted. He didn't know where to draw the line when it came to his ruthless determination. You can't turn the clock back though, it's better to just learn the lessons and avoid repetitions. I can imagine how Webber must have felt when Armstrong did a no-show at Monaco, but it's still worth taking inspiration from what he achieved recovering from cancer like he did.

exactly how I see it - well put.