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Why are people saying he's slow? Take a look at his silverstone lap in 04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZlpWqRhfns

Ev0lutionz wrote:Why are people saying he's slow? Take a look at his silverstone lap in 04.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZlpWqRhfns

...8 years?

Different kind of qualifying. These days you have to nail your lap three times in a row, that requires even better consistency.

Actually that's very impressive considering how much Shumi was Dominating 2004 in what in my opinion is the best F1 Car ever built.

REPLICATE wrote:Actually that's very impressive considering how much Shumi was Dominating 2004 in what in my opinion is the best F1 Car ever built.

McLaren '88. Ferrari were slower at times than competition in '04, but made up for it by strategy. Notable example is Mangy Cours from the same year you mention. Ferrari made 4 pitstops to out do Renault who were faster overall. We will know more may be in some more years about how they managed it.

Kimi was considered one of the best over a single lap until he went to Ferrari.

If there are people who are saying he's slow, I think the honourable thing to do is to forgive them for their ignorance.
There's being fast, there's having the car to use that speed, and there's team politics...

I don't think anybody thinks Kimi is slower. Maybe just slower than he was before. At Mclaren he was the fastest driver out there.

Personally, I think Kimi has just matured. When he first joined F1 he was fast but, because of circumstances, he didn't always get pole position or win the race. Now, he is mature enough to know that his qualifying position doesn't necessarily reflect his finishing place in the race, just like Alonso. Just my 2 cents worth

Whatever he was in the past, in 2012 he was underwhelming in qualifying. Time after time I found myself disappointed at his position in qualifying, and qualifying has proved just as important as it has always been (pre and post DRS). Grosjean, in my opinion, out-classed Raikkonen in qualifying; more often than Raikkonen, he showed the car's minimum qualifying position, and for a driver of Raikkonen's calibre, that's a pretty poor show.

It was on 05 and 06 when kimis qually was amazin, monza 05 when he stuck it on pole with twice as much fuel as montoya but had an engine penalty and then at monaco half a seccond faster than the field

me and my brothers would just play one of his monster laps around Spa... of course it was on repeat...

REPLICATE wrote:Actually that's very impressive considering how much Shumi was Dominating 2004 in what in my opinion is the best F1 Car ever built.

Although Schumi carried a lot more fuel and won the race reasonably handily.

But you're right the F2004 was a glorious car.

sgt.hartman wrote:Whatever he was in the past, in 2012 he was underwhelming in qualifying. Time after time I found myself disappointed at his position in qualifying, and qualifying has proved just as important as it has always been (pre and post DRS). Grosjean, in my opinion, out-classed Raikkonen in qualifying; more often than Raikkonen, he showed the car's minimum qualifying position, and for a driver of Raikkonen's calibre, that's a pretty poor show.

OTOH I think Kimi's tyre struggles in qualifying helped him in the race. But still it was surprising to see Grosjean outqualify him.

We shall see what happens this year.

Another duel between Alonso and Kimi 2005. He beat Alonso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMc8qy6U1o0

Impressive lap.

And Monza 2006,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8rvL6HC9hk

Beat MSC by -0002.

Kimi was considered one the best qualifier up until 2007. He trounced DC in 2003 and 2004 and then comfortably beat JPM (who was considered a qualifying specialist) in 2005/6.

I think Kimi more than anyone else set his car up to be a good RACE car, and for him that might mean a bigger gap between saturday and sunday performance. Can't say if that is a Kimi "issue" or a Lotus "issue". I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of speed or consistency in qualifying form. There were only a few times where I felt he could have had a better race result if he had qualified better.

Towards the end of last season he was better than Grosjean. If the team focuses on Kimi's feedback he can deliver, if not, he won't and his only problem that he won't bother to draw the attention back to him

Ev0lutionz wrote:Another duel between Alonso and Kimi 2005. He beat Alonso.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMc8qy6U1o0

Impressive lap.

And Monza 2006,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8rvL6HC9hk

Beat MSC by -0002.

Yes, I remember that time very well and was constantly impressed each GP weekend; I'd look forward to him doing something genuinely special (only to usually have it undone by a mechanical failure). But since the middle of 2008, I've always been somewhat worried every Saturday.

He lost the 2008 title by not being able to qualify and getting bogged down in the races in traffic with no overtaking (2008 aero regs) when he had clean air in the races he was untouchable hence his 10 fastest laps that year.

Coincidence or not, but his not been the same in qualifying since the Michelin days.

lamo wrote:Coincidence or not, but his not been the same in qualifying since the Michelin days.

Odd, isn't it, that Michelin want tyre manufacturers to actually compete in F1?

lamo wrote:He lost the 2008 title by not being able to qualify and getting bogged down in the races in traffic with no overtaking (2008 aero regs) when he had clean air in the races he was untouchable hence his 10 fastest laps that year.

Coincidence or not, but his not been the same in qualifying since the Michelin days.

This.

But at the same time, someone somewhere (maybe F1 Fanatic), had stats that showed qualifying position and finishing position are still about the same now as they were back at the height of dirty air (2008, I think), so it's still just as important.

The only time in his last 2 years in F1 that he really pulled something special out the bag in quali was Monaco 2009... Very very nearly took pole. I mean, there were things like this too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9UU0b8m7Us

KR/RG
Average (mean) of 18 qualifying sessions.
7.8/8.2

first 9 races
8.6/5.9

last 9 races
7.2/10.4

sgt.hartman wrote:

lamo wrote:He lost the 2008 title by not being able to qualify and getting bogged down in the races in traffic with no overtaking (2008 aero regs) when he had clean air in the races he was untouchable hence his 10 fastest laps that year.

Coincidence or not, but his not been the same in qualifying since the Michelin days.

But at the same time, someone somewhere (maybe F1 Fanatic), had stats that showed qualifying position and finishing position are still about the same now as they were back at the height of dirty air (2008, I think), so it's still just as important.

You know why that is, don't you?

The closeness of car performance. 2008 had big differences in car performance, 2012 has been closer to a spec series than ever.

I believe car performance in 2008 was also very close

TheThirdTenor wrote:I believe car performance in 2008 was also very close

Perhaps in qualifying but I believe there were bigger differences during the race. Partly because the drivers could push harder as it wasn't a tyre conservation formula.

When Maldonado inherited Hamilton's pole at Spain, I wasn't surprised when he won the race.

If something similar had happened in 2008 I would probably have been more surprised.

With tyre degradation so high if you are 5 or so cars and 10 seconds ahead of someone, you can conserve your tyres while they have to destroy theirs to get back at you.