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superuser wrote:In the first half of the season - worse than Alonso, in the second part - better than Alonso. On balance - probably the same. However there are few big factors here:

1. Vettel wouldn't want or accept Massa's gearbox "problems" in USA and therefore would probably have 5-10 pts less than Alonso in the end.

2. Vettle will qualify higher than Alonso and probably will have less "bad luck" at the starts.

3. Vettel wouldn't badmouth Ferrari engineers while patting himself on the back and they may have done a better job, ultimately hanging the right car to Vettel to win the championship.

RunningMan wrote:

garagetinkerer wrote:

RunningMan wrote:

Zekenwolf wrote:As has been discussed elsewhere, an interesting scenario would have been for Vettel and Alonso to have swapped places in 2012, the cars themselves remaining exactly the same with all the quirks etc.

Alonso would have done well in the RB8 and almost certsainly would have won all the races that Vettel himself did. He would also have scored close enough either way in the other points finish races but with two, possibly 3 exceptions. At Spa, Alonso might have achieved the same second place as Vettel did but IMO Alonso would not have been able to fight back to as high positions as Vettel did at Abu Dhabi or Brazil. That is not because I have any doubts about Alonso' talent but just the feeling that the RB8 suits Vettel more than it would suit Alonso. But it would be close.

Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton). Because of that advantage on the grid and the straight line speed of the Ferrari, Vettel would have won perhaps 1 or 2 more races than Alonso did and so got more points.

Putting Vettel in Massa's car alongside Alonso would have achieved even better results for Vettel IMO, assuming that there was no corporate interference either way. Once again, Vettel would have qualified better and won more races.

Since there were only 3 points between the two of them at the end of the 2012 season, I feel that Vettel would have won the WDC in the Ferrari as well irrespective of which car Alonso drove.

The Ferrari straightline speed. Which was one of the problems with the car in the first place? I don't think Vettel would have qualified that much further up the grid, if any further up to make much difference come race day. That Ferrari would qualify in an around 7th place. Alonso isn't a bad qualifier, and Vettel hasn't seemed to me to be that much better than him in that area.

Qualifying for me is more about the car than it is the driver. In races, it's a long 50+ lap event. You can benefit from unreliability, different strategies, overtaking etc etc, in quali, you can't do that. It's you and your car. However good your car is, has a massive effect on how good people will think of your're qualifying skills are.

I'm very interested in learning your opinion on Senna.

I personally have never had the chance to watch senna race. So I can't really comment fairly

Vettelmessi wrote:vettel would of won the title in any of the top 3 cars imo

pokerman wrote:

Vettelmessi wrote:vettel would of won the title in any of the top 3 cars imo

I guess he would have pushed the McLarens over the line?

Vettelmessi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Vettelmessi wrote:vettel would of won the title in any of the top 3 cars imo

I guess he would have pushed the McLarens over the line?

no he would of simply got more out of it in the races where it wasnt as fast rather than whine and upload dtat on twitter like hamilton did

'whats the point in racing guys' i can remember that line in one race this season.

when vettel had a slow car at the start of season he still kept himself in the title fight

bourbon19 wrote:Vettel would have not subjugated Massa, so they would have been racing one another

superuser wrote:1. Vettel wouldn't want or accept Massa's gearbox "problems" in USA and therefore would probably have 5-10 pts less than Alonso in the end.

Zekenwolf wrote:Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton).

metamorphomisk wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Oh really?

mikeyg123 wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Care to offer some recent DNF examples?

pokerman wrote:I'll repeat where was the evidence of Vettel being able to qualify well a car that is less than the best, he was all at sea in qualifying at the begining of the season when he had a lesser car

Vettelmessi wrote: no he would of simply got more out of it in the races where it wasnt as fast rather than whine and upload dtat on twitter like hamilton did

'whats the point in racing guys' i can remember that line in one race this season.

when vettel had a slow car at the start of season he still kept himself in the title fight

Vettelmessi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Vettelmessi wrote:vettel would of won the title in any of the top 3 cars imo

I guess he would have pushed the McLarens over the line?

no he would of simply got more out of it in the races where it wasnt as fast rather than whine and upload dtat on twitter like hamilton did

'whats the point in racing guys' i can remember that line in one race this season.

when vettel had a slow car at the start of season he still kept himself in the title fight

Armchair Expert wrote:

Zekenwolf wrote:Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton).

On what basis do you say that? When Hamilton and Alonso were teammates, there were evenly matched in qualifying, 9:8 for Alonso in low fuel Q2 and 8:7 for Hamilton in burning fuel Q3. To say Hamilton is much better qualifier is only wishful thinking, because facts from 2007 speak otherwise. And if Hamilton is rated by experts as the fastest driver in F1, then Alonso is pretty much as fast as him, which means 'much better qualifier' is rubbish.

Vettel? Please, he got rocketships since 2009 on his disposal, which were 20 kph (2010, in Campsa at Catalunya, according to Ross Brawn AFAIR) or 15 kph (2012 in India, according to Paul Hembery) faster in corners than all other cars . Mark Webber said he drove bad laps in India, yet he was P2, 0.050 behind Vettel on pole and 2 clear of Hamilton and 4 of Alonso, which only means Red Bulls are rocketships, much faster than any other car on the grid.

Armchair Expert wrote:

metamorphomisk wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Oh really?

mikeyg123 wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Care to offer some recent DNF examples?

-in Malaysia he collided with Karthikeyan
-in Spain he didn't slow down for yellow flags and received drive through penalty
-in Germany he overtook Button off the track and received drive through penalty
-in Italy he pushed Alonso onto grass and received drive through penalty
-in Abu Dhabi he collided with Senna
-in Abu Dhabi he hit DRS board behind Safety Car
-in Abu Dhabi he overtook Grosjean off the circuit and had to do it again, which means he lost time there
-in Brazil he caused collision with Senna turning into corner like no one was there

Did I forget about something?

kai_ wrote:

Armchair Expert wrote:

metamorphomisk wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Oh really?

mikeyg123 wrote:

lamo wrote:Less points than Alonso, once Vettel is into the pack he has all sorts of incidents and DNFs.

Care to offer some recent DNF examples?

-in Malaysia he collided with Karthikeyan
-in Spain he didn't slow down for yellow flags and received drive through penalty
-in Germany he overtook Button off the track and received drive through penalty
-in Italy he pushed Alonso onto grass and received drive through penalty
-in Abu Dhabi he collided with Senna
-in Abu Dhabi he hit DRS board behind Safety Car
-in Abu Dhabi he overtook Grosjean off the circuit and had to do it again, which means he lost time there
-in Brazil he caused collision with Senna turning into corner like no one was there

Did I forget about something?

And which of those led to a DNF? The only one of those that resulted in him not getting points was Karthikeyan in Malaysia and that happened very near the end of the race so there was no opportunity for him to make up the lost places. In addition to which Karthikeyan was being lapped and was in fact held responsible for that incident.

The penalty incidents are arguably not related to him racing in the pack as he has received penalties for not obeying the rules when second behind his teammate. Moreover, they're not accidents. The Grosjean one was hardly an 'incident' at all - he overtook off track, gave the place back and then executed a clean overtake. Did it really cost him time? That's entirely debatable given that we don't know how long he would have stayed behind Grosjean had he not executed that first overtake and he was barely held up behind him subsequently.

So that leaves his Abu Dhabi incident with Senna, his Abu Dhabi incident with the pitboard and the Brazil incident with Senna. In the case of the latter, Vettel very clearly explained his reasoning there. When heading for the first turn he had the inside line as Senna did on the fourth turn and because he was aware there were other cars he didn't head for the apex but compromised his own turn to avoid an incident. He assumed that other drivers would do the same, which was entirely reasonable, particularly in such a crowded situation as was the case at Turn 4. That also demonstrates Vettel's awareness to avoid incidents.

So that leaves the two Abu Dhabi incidents. Hardly significant over the course of the season.

james10171 wrote:

kai_ wrote:And which of those led to a DNF? The only one of those that resulted in him not getting points was Karthikeyan in Malaysia and that happened very near the end of the race so there was no opportunity for him to make up the lost places. In addition to which Karthikeyan was being lapped and was in fact held responsible for that incident.

The penalty incidents are arguably not related to him racing in the pack as he has received penalties for not obeying the rules when second behind his teammate. Moreover, they're not accidents. The Grosjean one was hardly an 'incident' at all - he overtook off track, gave the place back and then executed a clean overtake. Did it really cost him time? That's entirely debatable given that we don't know how long he would have stayed behind Grosjean had he not executed that first overtake and he was barely held up behind him subsequently.

So that leaves his Abu Dhabi incident with Senna, his Abu Dhabi incident with the pitboard and the Brazil incident with Senna. In the case of the latter, Vettel very clearly explained his reasoning there. When heading for the first turn he had the inside line as Senna did on the fourth turn and because he was aware there were other cars he didn't head for the apex but compromised his own turn to avoid an incident. He assumed that other drivers would do the same, which was entirely reasonable, particularly in such a crowded situation as was the case at Turn 4. That also demonstrates Vettel's awareness to avoid incidents.

So that leaves the two Abu Dhabi incidents. Hardly significant over the course of the season.

Why is NK responsible? Vettel moved on him too early, what did you want NK to go as far as going on the grass just to get out of queen Vettel's way?

I love how you ignore the Alonso incident, Vettel pushed him too much. Last year alonso gave him enough room at the same place.

Also in Germany he overtook button clearly on the outside, it's like as if he's not aware of the rules on occurrences. Remember the safety car period in Hungary 2010?

kai_ wrote:With regards to the Alonso incident, the rule on that changed from 2011 to 2012 in that drivers were in 2012 required to leave room for a car attempting an overtake. So it's not correct to assume that because Alonso wasn't penalised in 2011 he left enough room.

kai_ wrote:

james10171 wrote:

kai_ wrote:And which of those led to a DNF? The only one of those that resulted in him not getting points was Karthikeyan in Malaysia and that happened very near the end of the race so there was no opportunity for him to make up the lost places. In addition to which Karthikeyan was being lapped and was in fact held responsible for that incident.

The penalty incidents are arguably not related to him racing in the pack as he has received penalties for not obeying the rules when second behind his teammate. Moreover, they're not accidents. The Grosjean one was hardly an 'incident' at all - he overtook off track, gave the place back and then executed a clean overtake. Did it really cost him time? That's entirely debatable given that we don't know how long he would have stayed behind Grosjean had he not executed that first overtake and he was barely held up behind him subsequently.

So that leaves his Abu Dhabi incident with Senna, his Abu Dhabi incident with the pitboard and the Brazil incident with Senna. In the case of the latter, Vettel very clearly explained his reasoning there. When heading for the first turn he had the inside line as Senna did on the fourth turn and because he was aware there were other cars he didn't head for the apex but compromised his own turn to avoid an incident. He assumed that other drivers would do the same, which was entirely reasonable, particularly in such a crowded situation as was the case at Turn 4. That also demonstrates Vettel's awareness to avoid incidents.

So that leaves the two Abu Dhabi incidents. Hardly significant over the course of the season.

Why is NK responsible? Vettel moved on him too early, what did you want NK to go as far as going on the grass just to get out of queen Vettel's way?

I love how you ignore the Alonso incident, Vettel pushed him too much. Last year alonso gave him enough room at the same place.

Also in Germany he overtook button clearly on the outside, it's like as if he's not aware of the rules on occurrences. Remember the safety car period in Hungary 2010?

Karthikeyan was held responsible by the stewards.

With regards to the Alonso incident, the rule on that changed from 2011 to 2012 in that drivers were in 2012 required to leave room for a car attempting an overtake. So it's not correct to assume that because Alonso wasn't penalised in 2011 he left enough room.

But aside from which my point was to highlight that the provided examples were not demonstrative of Vettel having trouble racing in the pack per se and particularly in terms of running into other drivers. In the cases of the penalties he didn't run into other drivers.

kai_ wrote:I agree that Vettel is unproven in a car such as the F2012, both style and circumstances, but I do not agree with the assumption that he wouldn't have performed as well as Alonso in it.

A lot of this assumption seems to be based on Vettel's performance in the Red Bull this year - that when it was not to his liking he wasn't better than Webber and it was only when Red Bull sorted out the rear of the car that he performed well.

However, while Vettel did not qualify well in the early season Red Bull, he did race well.

Furthermore, the rear of the car was not a problem for long enough to judge whether Vettel would have adapted and picked up his performance. I recall a quote by Ascanelli in which he said that "sometime around the middle of 2008 Vettel figured out how to drive an F1 car faster". Over Vettel's career we have seen examples of this ability to adapt, such as when it comes to overtaking and in 2010 and 2011 when he was the fastest driver to adapt to the Pirelli tyres. There's nothing to say that given a few races in that car he wouldn't have adapted as necessary.

Vettel may be just familiar with the sort of car that has the characteristics of the Red Bull or it may be his preference, which all drivers have, but I don't think that means he can't perform in another style.

Armchair Expert wrote:

Zekenwolf wrote:Vettel in the 2012 Ferrari is more difficult to predict but most importantly, Vettel would have generally qualified in a higher position on the grid in most races than Alonso. I believe that Vettel is really a much better qualifier than Alonso (as is Hamilton).

On what basis do you say that? When Hamilton and Alonso were teammates, there were evenly matched in qualifying, 9:8 for Alonso in low fuel Q2 and 8:7 for Hamilton in burning fuel Q3. To say Hamilton is much better qualifier is only wishful thinking, because facts from 2007 speak otherwise. And if Hamilton is rated by experts as the fastest driver in F1, then Alonso is pretty much as fast as him, which means 'much better qualifier' is rubbish.

Vettel? Please, he got rocketships since 2009 on his disposal, which were 20 kph (2010, in Campsa at Catalunya, according to Ross Brawn AFAIR) or 15 kph (2012 in India, according to Paul Hembery) faster in corners than all other cars . Mark Webber said he drove bad laps in India, yet he was P2, 0.050 behind Vettel on pole and 2 clear of Hamilton and 4 of Alonso, which only means Red Bulls are rocketships, much faster than any other car on the grid.

pokerman wrote:

Vettelmessi wrote:vettel would of won the title in any of the top 3 cars imo

I guess he would have pushed the McLarens over the line?

Armchair Expert wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'll repeat where was the evidence of Vettel being able to qualify well a car that is less than the best, he was all at sea in qualifying at the begining of the season when he had a lesser car

Exactly!

Australia - lost to Webber by a whisker, but Webber had no KERS! that means he was 4 tenths slower than teammate
Malaysia - 2 tenths slower than Webber
China - Webber fastest in Q2, Vettel only 11th and out of Q3
Spain - Vettel with no time in Q3, Webber out of Q2 and slower than teammate only because team made horrible error and didn't try to set another lap, which would comfortably put Webber into Q3
Monaco - Webber pole, Vettel no time and P10, enough said
Great Britain - Webber 4 tenths faster
Belgium - Webber P4 in Q2, Vettel out of Q3 in 11th

Only when Newey brought EBD blowing back, Vettel started constantly outperforming Webber. And it has to be said that means very good car was transformed into another Red Bull rocketship, while Ferrari all year long was only good car, with average downforce, changing balance, top speed issues and tyres not heating enough for quali.

If Vettel is so good, even in lesser car, what he was doing before Singapore upgrades? Or was it his brother driving, like di Montezemolo likes to say?

Alcibiades wrote:I think its very difficult to say. The difference between the top drivers is small. I think Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel would all have won in the Red Bull. I think They would all have done well in the Ferrari. Their strengths, weaknesses and driving styles would have made it an interesting battle.

Blinky McSquinty wrote:My opinion is that Alonso dragged a car that was fourth best into a title fight. I consider what he did in 2012 as a great drive, and made him a worthy candidate for "driver of the year". It was one of the greatest drives of all time, despite falling short in the title chase.

Vettel, despite his many skills, rarely displays the ability to be able to wrestle an uncooperative car to a finish better than the machinery. The Ferrari never topped the time sheets in a straight-up fight and never set the quickest lap. I would expect 3rd, 4th, or a 5th place in the title.

Blake wrote:

Blinky McSquinty wrote:My opinion is that Alonso dragged a car that was fourth best into a title fight. I consider what he did in 2012 as a great drive, and made him a worthy candidate for "driver of the year". It was one of the greatest drives of all time, despite falling short in the title chase.

Vettel, despite his many skills, rarely displays the ability to be able to wrestle an uncooperative car to a finish better than the machinery. The Ferrari never topped the time sheets in a straight-up fight and never set the quickest lap. I would expect 3rd, 4th, or a 5th place in the title.

I second this post.... 3-5th in the WDC in the Ferrari. People just don't realize how good Alonso was this year...
As Mark Webber put it, ""I don't think he put a wheel wrong all year," Webber is quoted as saying by Autosport..."
"Was it his best season ever in terms of what he did? It could well be. He couldn't have done much more."

My personal belief is that, despite the respect I have for what he accomplished this year, Vettel could not have done at Ferrari what Alonso did, and that is what its. OK, Vettel fans you can start you bashing and name calling now!

bourbon19 wrote:

Armchair Expert wrote:

pokerman wrote:I'll repeat where was the evidence of Vettel being able to qualify well a car that is less than the best, he was all at sea in qualifying at the begining of the season when he had a lesser car

Exactly!

Australia - lost to Webber by a whisker, but Webber had no KERS! that means he was 4 tenths slower than teammate
Malaysia - 2 tenths slower than Webber
China - Webber fastest in Q2, Vettel only 11th and out of Q3
Spain - Vettel with no time in Q3, Webber out of Q2 and slower than teammate only because team made horrible error and didn't try to set another lap, which would comfortably put Webber into Q3
Monaco - Webber pole, Vettel no time and P10, enough said
Great Britain - Webber 4 tenths faster
Belgium - Webber P4 in Q2, Vettel out of Q3 in 11th

Only when Newey brought EBD blowing back, Vettel started constantly outperforming Webber. And it has to be said that means very good car was transformed into another Red Bull rocketship, while Ferrari all year long was only good car, with average downforce, changing balance, top speed issues and tyres not heating enough for quali.

If Vettel is so good, even in lesser car, what he was doing before Singapore upgrades? Or was it his brother driving, like di Montezemolo likes to say?

If he is as poor as you wish to pretend, why is it that he is such a hot commodity? There isn't a top team that didn't try to get him including Macca, RBR (prior to Red Bull) and Ferrari, Merc (post Red Bull). Do you think they look upon his ability like you? Or do you think they are just not as wise as you and haven't figured out yet that Vettel is a sham without a rocket?

Blake wrote:

Blinky McSquinty wrote:My opinion is that Alonso dragged a car that was fourth best into a title fight. I consider what he did in 2012 as a great drive, and made him a worthy candidate for "driver of the year". It was one of the greatest drives of all time, despite falling short in the title chase.

Vettel, despite his many skills, rarely displays the ability to be able to wrestle an uncooperative car to a finish better than the machinery. The Ferrari never topped the time sheets in a straight-up fight and never set the quickest lap. I would expect 3rd, 4th, or a 5th place in the title.

I second this post.... 3-5th in the WDC in the Ferrari. People just don't realize how good Alonso was this year...
As Mark Webber put it, ""I don't think he put a wheel wrong all year," Webber is quoted as saying by Autosport..."
"Was it his best season ever in terms of what he did? It could well be. He couldn't have done much more."

My personal belief is that, despite the respect I have for what he accomplished this year, Vettel could not have done at Ferrari what Alonso did, and that is what it is. OK, Vettel fans you can start you bashing and name calling now!


edited for typo - Blake

Blake wrote:Just because you hold him responsible, mkone, doesn't make it so. Most experts seem to be of the belief that Alonso made very few errors this year, as do some of his fellow drivers. You might want to consider why that might be.