Re: Mclaren Driver PR work..
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:25 pm
what are you, 5 years old?Johnston wrote:Thats because I am still waiting on your good self answering mine.
what are you, 5 years old?Johnston wrote:Thats because I am still waiting on your good self answering mine.
so if there's only one type, what's the difference between satisfactory and world class?Johnston wrote:One it's not illegal. It's not discrimination.Zoue wrote: I'm hoping the final comment is tongue in cheek as it took me god knows how many requests before you answered my question.
But I'll give it a shot.
I'm assuming you are not concerned with the (illegal) discriminatory factor when considering one candidate's dyslexia?
the information you have provided isn't enough to provide the answers to your questions. For instance, are you looking for a welder with stores experience, or vice versa? Which part of the job is more demanding and requires more expertise? What kind of welding would have to be done and how good a job (i.e. is it for "behind the scenes" stuff or will the results be in plain view? What assistance will be provided for the potential applicant's dyslexia? Etc etc.
I know you've weighted this (highly improbable) job advert to make out that time spent on one aspect means that that particular aspect is more important, but that's not always the case. Let me give you a counter argument:
I need a salesman for my company, to develop new business for the company. He/she will be spending most of the time initially on the telephone trying to drum up business and make appointments and sales, with a further chunk of the day involved in the inevitable admin and computer skills to record all his/her interactions. On average the day breaks down into 55% phone calls, 35% admin / computer work and 10% visiting clients. Now what would you consider the prime factor of the job, and should I be looking for a telephonist, administrator or salesperson?
But no you haven't answered the questions.
It's easy, the options are
Part a) Which is the primary factor?
Welding 1 day a week
Or
Stores 4 days a week
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part b) Who gets the job?
The guy who is better at stores and a satisfactory welder for the job.
OR
The guy who is a better welder but totally useless at stores.
----------------------------------------------------------
As for Welding and
What kind of welding would have to be done and how good a job (i.e. is it for "behind the scenes" stuff or will the results be in plain view?
There is only one type of good weld. Whether it's in view or not. A peaky looking weld is a peaky weld. However a good looking one doesn't always stick. You need both to do a good weld.
well then it depends on what weighting you would give the welding, doesn't it? On the basis that it only happens once a week that suggests that there is some kind of time constraint on the welding that needed to be done, which would favour the world class welder, and given that welding requires a greater skillset than stock control, I would say that welding is the primary factor, with the world class welder getting the job (with the risk that he might be totally bored four days a week of course). On the other hand, if time wasn't an issue and speed and consistency was less of a factor, that would favour the satisfactory welder with the store pedigree, given that he can perform both jobs adequatelyJohnston wrote:consistency, speed of work. Many other things.
You were talking about type of Weld not type of Welder.
Zoue wrote:well then it depends on what weighting you would give the welding, doesn't it? On the basis that it only happens once a week that suggests that there is some kind of time constraint on the welding that needed to be done, which would favour the world class welder, and given that welding requires a greater skillset than stock control, I would say that welding is the primary factor, with the world class welder getting the job (with the risk that he might be totally bored four days a week of course). On the other hand, if time wasn't an issue and speed and consistency was less of a factor, that would favour the satisfactory welder with the store pedigree, given that he can perform both jobs adequatelyJohnston wrote:consistency, speed of work. Many other things.
You were talking about type of Weld not type of Welder.
with the provisos I've put in place, yesJohnston wrote:Zoue wrote:well then it depends on what weighting you would give the welding, doesn't it? On the basis that it only happens once a week that suggests that there is some kind of time constraint on the welding that needed to be done, which would favour the world class welder, and given that welding requires a greater skillset than stock control, I would say that welding is the primary factor, with the world class welder getting the job (with the risk that he might be totally bored four days a week of course). On the other hand, if time wasn't an issue and speed and consistency was less of a factor, that would favour the satisfactory welder with the store pedigree, given that he can perform both jobs adequatelyJohnston wrote:consistency, speed of work. Many other things.
You were talking about type of Weld not type of Welder.
So is that your final answer in bold?
er, what? You're asking me to make a call based on almost zero information. How is that relevant to anything? Assuming you want to somehow tie this back to F1 (at least, I hope so), how does making a choice in the dark have any bearing on what we have been discussing? Who hires someone blind? Any answer I'd give would be meaningless because it would basically be flipping a coin.Johnston wrote:Nope no provisos.
Lay your hat.
The work ratio is 4:1 in the stores favour.
One can do both the job requirements. One can do only one.
who gets the job?
Welder or storeman who can weld .
One or the other. a or B black or White. No ifs and or buts.
Hire the guy who can do both satisfactory. There, that wasn't so hard was it.Johnston wrote:I have given you the information.
In it's simplest form. Stores is 4x the welding.
One guy can do both to satisfaction one can only do 1/5th of the work load.
It's anything but blind.
You can only hire one.
It can't be made any simpler. No other factors involved.
OK, but you do understand I'm sticking the pin in the donkey just to see what the point of all this is, right? Eeenie, meenie, I'll pick satisfactory guyJohnston wrote:I have given you the information.
In it's simplest form. Stores is 4x the welding.
One guy can do both to satisfaction one can only do 1/5th of the work load.
It's anything but blind.
You can only hire one.
It can't be made any simpler. No other factors involved.
Johnston wrote:
I'll asky you this.
A job comes up in the motorsport news. .
Job entails.
On average 4 days a week PR duty, 1 day racing.
Which is the primary factor of the job?
Who is going to get the job?
The world class racer who is socially inept and can't talk in public Or the Satisfactory racer exemplary in front of an audience and after dinner speeches ?
ah, I see where you're going with this. World class racer, every timeJohnston wrote:Johnston wrote:
I'll asky you this.
A job comes up in the motorsport news. .
Job entails.
On average 4 days a week PR duty, 1 day racing.
Which is the primary factor of the job?
Who is going to get the job?
The world class racer who is socially inept and can't talk in public Or the Satisfactory racer exemplary in front of an audience and after dinner speeches ?
Zoue wrote: ah, I see where you're going with this. World class racer, every time
Unless I'm missing something from the world of welding it's not a competitive sport, which racing is. There's a lot of PR value in sticking your car ahead of where it should be in races, and there's a lot of negative PR value in having your car trundling around at the back of the grid or not being driven to it's full potential. i feel compelled to use Heikki as my go to example here - he's just as capable as Button with his PR duties, but his racing skills were underwhelming, at least during his time at McLaren, which is why he had to go.Johnston wrote:Zoue wrote: ah, I see where you're going with this. World class racer, every time
Really?
so when it's welders and storemen you take the one that can do both jobs.
when it's racing you take the one that does the minority.
With someone poor with sponsors where do you get the money to fund the team? They pay for more than a fast moving bill board.
When he doesn't do the Press commitments what do you tell the FIA?
ah, the baton has been passed again, I see.ashley313 wrote:
Saying something is "utter garbage" doesn't make it untrue. And just because you would always choose a better racer over a PR superstar doesn't mean that's what teams do, as we've shown you many times. So some of us have chosen to look at what the sport has dictated as the prime roles of Formula 1 drivers, and you have chosen what YOU think it is, based on...who knows what? Idealism maybe. And one thing I have learned about reality and idealism is never the twain shall meet.
No you can't. Sponsors have distinct wants from the people they sponsor. If you don't fulfil those wants they go elsewhere. Just like any other business where one end does not do what is required.You can structure PR events so the chimp doesn't have to speak much and maybe just smile and nod his head with a little coaching,
Its what the sport has dictated because....its what happens in the sport. Drivers are hired for reasons beyond their driving capabilities. That is a fact, supported by evidence. You have even agreed to that. I don't understand why you're so stuck on the idea that the primary role of an employee can be multifaceted. There aren't many jobs with a singular primary role. Assembly line jobs maybe, where all you are responsible for is stamping a logo into a piece of metal or something. If multiple parts of a job have equal importance, then they are all part of the primary role.Zoue wrote:ah, the baton has been passed again, I see.ashley313 wrote:
Saying something is "utter garbage" doesn't make it untrue. And just because you would always choose a better racer over a PR superstar doesn't mean that's what teams do, as we've shown you many times. So some of us have chosen to look at what the sport has dictated as the prime roles of Formula 1 drivers, and you have chosen what YOU think it is, based on...who knows what? Idealism maybe. And one thing I have learned about reality and idealism is never the twain shall meet.
You're right, utter garbage isn't always untrue, but in your case it is. You are saying a secondary consideration is more important than a primary one, which just isn't true.
As for the rest of your quote, oh dear. Essentially because you have said it, it's what the sport has dictated, whereas if I have said it, it's something I've made up on my own. Little bit presumptuous don't you think?
And sorry to disabuse you of your own self importance but you haven't proven a thing. In fact, as pointed out earlier Johnston agreed with me that driving ability determined whether a driver stayed or went, so you're on your own there.
Zoue wrote:Johnston,
first off, you seem to be taking a literal and extreme view of every circumstance. I answered your questions, but it's highly unlikely that any driver would be as extremely PR illiterate as the example you gave. Nevertheless, given the choices I had I still believe that's the best outcome for a racing team.
As I've stated before. "primary" is not interchangeable with "exclusively," yet you seem to imply that if a driver's primary function is driving then he can't possibly handle any PR or other related work. That's just not true. And just because they spend the most man-hours doing one activity that doesn't make that activity their primary role. It just means that it takes a lot of their time.
F1 drivers are hired primarily to race cars. Not exclusively. Primarily. They will have other duties, including of course PR, but the reason for getting them on board is to race the team's car and get it as high up the points as possible. If they can't do that, then they won't be around long enough to do much in the way of PR for the team, either. Sorry to use the same old example but McLaren didn't get rid of Heikki because he didn't smile enough for the camera; it was because he didn't perform on track. And as pointed out earlier in this thread, PR takes a lot of the McLaren boys' time so that's as good an example as any.
Johnston wrote:I have yet to say if his primary function is racing he can't do PR work. I'm saying other things are more important than the driving. Some teams it's the PR as I have shown examples, some it's the Money they bring . I'm saying if the best driver in the world is a tool head that gets on with no one annoys the sponsors, no one will touch him.
Take a look through the grid, how many got their starts through driving? If more drivers get into F1 through things like bringing money or Sponsors than natural given driving talent, how can Driving be the primary function of a driver?
If teams turn down some of the supposedly best drivers on the grid in favour of "Journey men" how can driving be the primary function?
If the likes of McLaren are willing to lose the likes of Lewis and Kimi over PR days how can driving be the primary function. If driving came first wouldn't they dump the PR to keep the drivers?
For driving to be the primary function. Then it has to be the decider not the tie break.
Johnston wrote:Obviously they were willing too they didn't bow to his demands .
If driving is the primary factor they would drop everything to keep him. Unless of course they think Perez is the better driver.
Or other factors were more important.
it was not a case of McLaren not offering him enough, it was a case of Lewis not wanted to drive for McLaren anymoreJohnston wrote:Obviously they were willing too they didn't bow to his demands .
If driving is the primary factor they would drop everything to keep him. Unless of course they think Perez is the better driver.
Or other factors were more important.
well no, not really. They tried but they're not a bottomless pit of funds. Everybody has his price and every company has a limit somewhere. And besides, the fact that they did offer him more than anyone else shows they wanted him. He just didn't want them.Johnston wrote:Obviously they were willing too they didn't bow to his demands .
If driving is the primary factor they would drop everything to keep him. Unless of course they think Perez is the better driver.
Or other factors were more important.
I could equally say that I don't understand why you insist that everything a driver does has equal merit, when it clearly doesn't. I don't understand why you feel that a driver's primary role is to race the car, when to me its's as clear as day. At the end of a season no-one talks about how good they were at their PR duties or whether they were nice to women and children. It's the driving that is the focus of attention and the reason these guys even exist.ashley313 wrote:Its what the sport has dictated because....its what happens in the sport. Drivers are hired for reasons beyond their driving capabilities. That is a fact, supported by evidence. You have even agreed to that. I don't understand why you're so stuck on the idea that the primary role of an employee can be multifaceted. There aren't many jobs with a singular primary role. Assembly line jobs maybe, where all you are responsible for is stamping a logo into a piece of metal or something. If multiple parts of a job have equal importance, then they are all part of the primary role.Zoue wrote:ah, the baton has been passed again, I see.ashley313 wrote:
Saying something is "utter garbage" doesn't make it untrue. And just because you would always choose a better racer over a PR superstar doesn't mean that's what teams do, as we've shown you many times. So some of us have chosen to look at what the sport has dictated as the prime roles of Formula 1 drivers, and you have chosen what YOU think it is, based on...who knows what? Idealism maybe. And one thing I have learned about reality and idealism is never the twain shall meet.
You're right, utter garbage isn't always untrue, but in your case it is. You are saying a secondary consideration is more important than a primary one, which just isn't true.
As for the rest of your quote, oh dear. Essentially because you have said it, it's what the sport has dictated, whereas if I have said it, it's something I've made up on my own. Little bit presumptuous don't you think?
And sorry to disabuse you of your own self importance but you haven't proven a thing. In fact, as pointed out earlier Johnston agreed with me that driving ability determined whether a driver stayed or went, so you're on your own there.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Offering money in return for services is hardly unique to F1. What is there to admit to? (Note the question mark).Johnston wrote:They offered him more money, supposedly more than Merc. However it appears they didn't change on things like PR and the trophies did they?
So in that case what was more important to Macca than the driving ability?
But wait isn't driving ability most important so why didn't they relax on the PR and trophies?
Nice of you to admit to the money thing too.
Well one way of looking at it is McLaren thought trophies PR etc etc were more important.Zoue wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by that. Offering money in return for services is hardly unique to F1. What is there to admit to? (Note the question mark).Johnston wrote:They offered him more money, supposedly more than Merc. However it appears they didn't change on things like PR and the trophies did they?
So in that case what was more important to Macca than the driving ability?
But wait isn't driving ability most important so why didn't they relax on the PR and trophies?
Nice of you to admit to the money thing too.
So money was a prime factor above talent.They tried but they're not a bottomless pit of funds. Everybody has his price and every company has a limit somewhere.
Sometimes I think you live in an alternate universe. They offered him money in order to keep his talent. If anything it demonstrates that his talent was the prime factor. What were they supposed to do? Offer him beans?Johnston wrote:Well one way of looking at it is McLaren thought trophies PR etc etc were more important.Zoue wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by that. Offering money in return for services is hardly unique to F1. What is there to admit to? (Note the question mark).Johnston wrote:They offered him more money, supposedly more than Merc. However it appears they didn't change on things like PR and the trophies did they?
So in that case what was more important to Macca than the driving ability?
But wait isn't driving ability most important so why didn't they relax on the PR and trophies?
Nice of you to admit to the money thing too.
the other
So money was a prime factor above talent.They tried but they're not a bottomless pit of funds. Everybody has his price and every company has a limit somewhere.
OK, you're really getting confused about the whole thing now. For starters, you've mixed up what's important for the team (e.g. talent) with what's important for the driver (e.g.money). So your examples are always going to give a skewed result.Johnston wrote:They could have offered more or relax on the terms he wanted.
so your options are.
They weren't willing to stop up the cash he wanted making the cash more important.
weren't willing to relax on the trophies making them more important
Weren't willing to relax on the PR days making that more important.
Weren't willing to give him the private camper van with pink velour interior making that more important.
Weren't willing to relax on any number of things making them more important
a combination of all or any of the above.
OR
Lewis was never going to sign and was only stringing them along.
Or it's truly about driving and they think Perez is better hence why they weren't willing to give lewis what he wanted.
Zoue wrote: OK, you're really getting confused about the whole thing now. For starters, you've mixed up what's important for the team (e.g. talent) with what's important for the driver (e.g.money). So your examples are always going to give a skewed result.
If the team bends over backwards to keep a driver and offer him anything including money, fewer PR days, trophies, camper vans and/or cuddly toys, it shows that they value his talent. Whatever they offer is simply the price they put on his talent. That's pretty much the only conclusion you can draw. If they don't offer him anything, then they don't value his talent. Again, that's pretty much the only conclusion you can draw. Whether the driver accepts it or not is a whole other ball game.
well, yes. There's bankruptcy, for a start. Nobody has bottomless funds, but that doesn't mean they don't value the talent, only that they might not be able to afford it. That doesn't lessen it's importance in any way.Johnston wrote:Zoue wrote: OK, you're really getting confused about the whole thing now. For starters, you've mixed up what's important for the team (e.g. talent) with what's important for the driver (e.g.money). So your examples are always going to give a skewed result.
If the team bends over backwards to keep a driver and offer him anything including money, fewer PR days, trophies, camper vans and/or cuddly toys, it shows that they value his talent. Whatever they offer is simply the price they put on his talent. That's pretty much the only conclusion you can draw. If they don't offer him anything, then they don't value his talent. Again, that's pretty much the only conclusion you can draw. Whether the driver accepts it or not is a whole other ball game.
No I haven't.
In this case instead of receiving money it was keeping it. As the saying goes "Everyman has his price" . something was more important to McLaren than Lewis talent OR he was never going to sign.
The rest I have no quarrel with. But the fact the teams will only go so far shows there is something more important than the talent.
The fact their is a limit on the value of the talent shows that somethings > than talent. That is undeniable.
Otherwise they would give them what ever the hell the driver asked for.
Here's another way of looking at it. If driver talent is paramount. Why is Newey such a big deal? Why do team bosses like Williams think it's to do with the car more than the driver?
I stopped reading after this point. You've already admitted that drivers are hired, or re-signed, for reasons other than their driving skill. If you can't understand that that logically makes those reasons as important, or in some cases more important, as driving skill...then there's something lacking from your learning of logic, and as I'm only paid to teach horsemanship I'm afraid I can't keep trying to give you free lessons.Zoue wrote: I could equally say that I don't understand why you insist that everything a driver does has equal merit, when it clearly doesn't.
perhaps you can refresh my memory, as I don't recall saying that any reasons were more important than driving abilityashley313 wrote:I stopped reading after this point. You've already admitted that drivers are hired, or re-signed, for reasons other than their driving skill. If you can't understand that that logically makes those reasons as important, or in some cases more important, as driving skill...then there's something lacking from your learning of logic, and as I'm only paid to teach horsemanship I'm afraid I can't keep trying to give you free lessons.Zoue wrote: I could equally say that I don't understand why you insist that everything a driver does has equal merit, when it clearly doesn't.
Perhaps McLaren prioritizing PR over ability has something to do with their chronic incompetence and inability to win as many Championships as any of their closest rivals. There a racing team not a modeling agencyJohnston wrote:They offered him more money, supposedly more than Merc. However it appears they didn't change on things like PR and the trophies did they?
So in that case what was more important to Macca than the driving ability?
But wait isn't driving ability most important so why didn't they relax on the PR and trophies?
Nice of you to admit to the money thing too.