planetf1.com

Pic's not a rookie, either.

Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

potter84 wrote:Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

Definitely about money then IMO as neither seems significantly better, basically 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other. Looking at the 1/2 season they faced off a Lotus, I'd say Petrov a little faster and Senna a little more consistent. Senna had the real promising performance right out of the box at Spa, but then generally settled in with lower performances on Sundays vs. Petrov with either better performances or DNFs. Senna did hold a points paying position for much of the Indian Grand Prix, but that was largely due to waiting until the final 5 laps to make a 2nd stop to put on the harder tires to meet regs.

So I guess from a purely racing perspective, the issue for me is, which of the 2 pay drivers offer better technical feedback. But I can't feel too bad for whichever of the 2 doesn't get the seat (though I'd probably opt for Vitaly as my personal choice as he seems to have a bit more personality), but I can't get excited about either at this point, the driver of interest at Caterham this year is the young Pic, who is still very much an unknown in terms of quality IMO.

As for the other open seat... looking at the calender today, it struck me that none of options for Force India must really set the decision makers hair on fire. It's not really a ringing endorsement of Sutil or Bianchi that a decision has yet to be announced. I think if either truly excited the team an announcement would have been made. FI will be very interesting to watch early in the season as it seemed to have some momentum the 2nd half of 2012, I'm wondering if they've allowed much of that to dissipate since Brazil.

(I've pretty much finished watching the races of the 2011 that I started watching after Brazil, and I will say, Alguersuari made a pretty good impression on me, routinely running in that P7 thru P11 range, usually ahead of drivers given a lot more respect. To the point I would like to see what he could do with another shot and a decent car. Both Algs and Buemi were under threat to produce or be replaced in that 2011 season, which really raises the question of just how badly the Toros must have dropped off from 2011 to 2012 that Ricciardo and JEV are getting a 2nd season if Algs' 26 points weren't good enough to be retained but the pair's combined 26 points were good enough to both return.)

Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:Definitely about money then IMO as neither seems significantly better, basically 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other. Looking at the 1/2 season they faced off a Lotus, I'd say Petrov a little faster and Senna a little more consistent. Senna had the real promising performance right out of the box at Spa, but then generally settled in with lower performances on Sundays vs. Petrov with either better performances or DNFs. Senna did hold a points paying position for much of the Indian Grand Prix, but that was largely due to waiting until the final 5 laps to make a 2nd stop to put on the harder tires to meet regs.

So I guess from a purely racing perspective, the issue for me is, which of the 2 pay drivers offer better technical feedback. But I can't feel too bad for whichever of the 2 doesn't get the seat (though I'd probably opt for Vitaly as my personal choice as he seems to have a bit more personality), but I can't get excited about either at this point, the driver of interest at Caterham this year is the young Pic, who is still very much an unknown in terms of quality IMO.

As for the other open seat... looking at the calender today, it struck me that none of options for Force India must really set the decision makers hair on fire. It's not really a ringing endorsement of Sutil or Bianchi that a decision has yet to be announced. I think if either truly excited the team an announcement would have been made. FI will be very interesting to watch early in the season as it seemed to have some momentum the 2nd half of 2012, I'm wondering if they've allowed much of that to dissipate since Brazil.

(I've pretty much finished watching the races of the 2011 that I started watching after Brazil, and I will say, Alguersuari made a pretty good impression on me, routinely running in that P7 thru P11 range, usually ahead of drivers given a lot more respect. To the point I would like to see what he could do with another shot and a decent car. Both Algs and Buemi were under threat to produce or be replaced in that 2011 season, which really raises the question of just how badly the Toros must have dropped off from 2011 to 2012 that Ricciardo and JEV are getting a 2nd season if Algs' 26 points weren't good enough to be retained but the pair's combined 26 points were good enough to both return.)

agree about their time at lotus/renault but at the same time petrov already had half a seasons racing under his belt by that point, look how long it took hulkenberg to get settled and up to racing speed again last season. They are of similar mid field ability but going on their lower formula i would imagine senna would probably edge him over a whole season, also whereas petrov Would generate a lot of interest in Russia, senna has a huge fanbase world wide, in fact bar the drivers in the top 3-4 teams he probably has a bigger fan base than anyone else on the grid which means more interest in Caterham in turn.

Media in brazil are reporting that senna has signed for Caterham as of 4th Jan. Still no official word from Caterham but they all seem pretty certain it has already been signed. Another rumor was that mark gillan is negotiating with Caterham also!?! Not sure about that one unless the reason he left Williams wasn't genuine.

Just reporting, a man is filling Force India's and Bruno Senna's Facebook pages with this comment:


"COMENTARIOS DE UM MECÂNICO DIZEM QUE BRUNO SENNA JÁ ASSINOU CONTRATO COM A FORCE INDIA NO LUGAR DE Nico Hulkenberg, E QUE O COTRATO DE BRUNO SENNA SERIA DE 2 ANOS, NO EMBROLIO DISSO AINDA A POSSIBILIDADE DE Vijay Mallya, CONTAR COM MOTORES RENAULT EM 2014.
A NOVELA SEGUE, MAS O QUE ESTA EM QUESTÃO AGORA É COMO VAI SER QUEBRADO O CONTRATO DE DI RESTA, POIS Vijay Mallya QUER TER UMA SEGUNDA OPÇÃO DE MOTORES EM 2014 QUE NO CASO SERIA O MOTOR FERRARI.
DE BOBO Vijay Mallya NÃO É, QUER ASSEGURAR UM DESSES MOTORES PRA 2014.
E CONTAR COM A $$$$$ DE BRUNO SENNA ( 25 MILHOES DE EUROS) E BIANCHI, ESTE ULTIMO SÓ ESTARIA CORRENDO ATRÁS DE PATROCINADORES PARA GARANTIR UM VALOR DE 15 MILHOES DE EUROS . OU SEJA, O TOTAL SERIA APROXIMADAMENTE 40 MILHOES DE EUROS DOS DOIS PILOTOS...
OU CERCA DE 130 MILHOES DE REAIS...
UM DINHEIRO QUE DARIA PRA PAGAR AS CONTAS, SOMANDO COM OS MAIS 70 MILHOES DE EUROS QUE RECEBERAM PELA POSIÇAO NO CAMPEONATO...
UM VALOR CONSIDEREVAL PARA ATE BRIGAR PELA 5 OU 6 POSIÇAO NO CAMPEONATO.
ANO PASSADO RECEBI A MESMA INFORMAÇÃO DESTE NOBRE AMIGO QUE DIZIA QUE BRUNO SENNA IRIA CORRER PELA WILLIAMS E DEU CERTO, AGORA VAMOS TORCER QUE ELE ESTEJA MESMO FALANDO UMA OUTRA VERDADE! CREIO QUE SIM!
VALEU..."

lolwut?

shift wrote:Just reporting, a man is filling Force India's and Bruno Senna's Facebook pages with this comment:


"COMENTARIOS DE UM MECÂNICO DIZEM QUE BRUNO SENNA JÁ ASSINOU CONTRATO COM A FORCE INDIA NO LUGAR DE Nico Hulkenberg, E QUE O COTRATO DE BRUNO SENNA SERIA DE 2 ANOS, NO EMBROLIO DISSO AINDA A POSSIBILIDADE DE Vijay Mallya, CONTAR COM MOTORES RENAULT EM 2014.
A NOVELA SEGUE, MAS O QUE ESTA EM QUESTÃO AGORA É COMO VAI SER QUEBRADO O CONTRATO DE DI RESTA, POIS Vijay Mallya QUER TER UMA SEGUNDA OPÇÃO DE MOTORES EM 2014 QUE NO CASO SERIA O MOTOR FERRARI.
DE BOBO Vijay Mallya NÃO É, QUER ASSEGURAR UM DESSES MOTORES PRA 2014.
E CONTAR COM A $$$$$ DE BRUNO SENNA ( 25 MILHOES DE EUROS) E BIANCHI, ESTE ULTIMO SÓ ESTARIA CORRENDO ATRÁS DE PATROCINADORES PARA GARANTIR UM VALOR DE 15 MILHOES DE EUROS . OU SEJA, O TOTAL SERIA APROXIMADAMENTE 40 MILHOES DE EUROS DOS DOIS PILOTOS...
OU CERCA DE 130 MILHOES DE REAIS...
UM DINHEIRO QUE DARIA PRA PAGAR AS CONTAS, SOMANDO COM OS MAIS 70 MILHOES DE EUROS QUE RECEBERAM PELA POSIÇAO NO CAMPEONATO...
UM VALOR CONSIDEREVAL PARA ATE BRIGAR PELA 5 OU 6 POSIÇAO NO CAMPEONATO.
ANO PASSADO RECEBI A MESMA INFORMAÇÃO DESTE NOBRE AMIGO QUE DIZIA QUE BRUNO SENNA IRIA CORRER PELA WILLIAMS E DEU CERTO, AGORA VAMOS TORCER QUE ELE ESTEJA MESMO FALANDO UMA OUTRA VERDADE! CREIO QUE SIM!
VALEU..."

lolwut?

Translated:

(Google Translate)

FEEDBACK FROM A MECHANIC SAYS THAT BRUNO SENNA ALREADY SIGNED CONTRACT WITH FORCE INDIA IN LIEU OF Nico Hulkenberg, AND THAT OF BRUNO SENNA COTRATO WOULD OF 2 YEARS IN ADDITION EMBROLIO STILL A POSSIBILITY OF Vijay Mallya, COUNT WITH RENAULT ENGINES IN 2014.
A NOVEL FOLLOW, BUT WHAT IS AT ISSUE NOW IS LIKE GOING TO BE BROKEN THE CONTRACT OF DI REMAINS AS Vijay Mallya WANT TO HAVE A SECOND OPTION OF ENGINES IN 2014 WHICH SHOULD BE THE FERRARI ENGINE.
DE BOBO Vijay Mallya IS NOT, WANT ONE OF THESE ENGINES TO ENSURE 2014.
AND TELL WITH $ $ $ $ $ FROM BRUNO SENNA (25 MILLION EUROS) AND BIANCHI, THIS LAST ONLY BE RUNNING BEHIND THE SPONSORS TO ENSURE A VALUE OF 15 MILLION EUROS. THAT IS, THE TOTAL WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY 40 MILLION EUROS OF TWO DRIVERS ...
OR APPROXIMATELY 130 MILLION REAL ...
A GIVE MONEY TO PAY THE BILLS, ADDING MORE WITH 70 MILLION EUROS BY RECEIVING POSITION IN CHAMPIONSHIP ...
A VALUE FOR CONSIDEREVAL even fight BY 5 OR 6 POSITION IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP.
LAST YEAR I RECEIVED THE SAME INFORMATION THAT THIS NOBLE FRIEND SAID THAT WOULD RUN BY BRUNO SENNA WILLIAMS AND GIVEN RIGHT, NOW LET'S TWIST THAT HE IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER TRUTH! I BELIEVE THAT YES!
Thanks ...

Sounds like a nutjob.

Quite shocked that teams have left it so late to pick their drivers. Did we have any that left it this late in 2012? I dont recall them being this late for a while (could be my crap memory however).

It leaves little time for the driver to get into the grove of working with the car, and next to no time for driver input to have effect on its development :/

RickM wrote:Quite shocked that teams have left it so late to pick their drivers. Did we have any that left it this late in 2012? I dont recall them being this late for a while (could be my crap memory however).

It leaves little time for the driver to get into the grove of working with the car, and next to no time for driver input to have effect on its development :/

*this.
They better get a move on, for driver's sake as they risk to start the season in the wrong way.

RickM wrote:Quite shocked that teams have left it so late to pick their drivers. Did we have any that left it this late in 2012? I dont recall them being this late for a while (could be my crap memory however).

It leaves little time for the driver to get into the grove of working with the car, and next to no time for driver input to have effect on its development :/

i think senna signed for Williams on like the 15th or 17th of Jan not 100% and i think another team finalized their lineup after Williams did.

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:Quite shocked that teams have left it so late to pick their drivers. Did we have any that left it this late in 2012? I dont recall them being this late for a while (could be my crap memory however).

It leaves little time for the driver to get into the grove of working with the car, and next to no time for driver input to have effect on its development :/

i think senna signed for Williams on like the 15th or 17th of Jan not 100% and i think another team finalized their lineup after Williams did.

in fact i think it was the team in question trulli did testing in Jan and then replaced him with petrov in feb

As long as they have a seat fitting before the first test then they aren't really missing anything out even if they sign a driver a week before the first test tbh. They only thing they miss is the chance to bond with mechanics at the factory and simulator time.

shift wrote:

potter84 wrote:Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

I'm not sure about whay they're going to achieve with a driver pairing of Senna and Pic?

pokerman wrote:

shift wrote:

potter84 wrote:Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

I'm not sure about whay they're going to achieve with a driver pairing of Senna and Pic?

senna is of a similar level to petrov who in turn was a match to kov he can bring in cash and media attention and a wide fan base thus making the Caterham brand more appealing, hopefully if the car is decent snatch a few points if they are lucky. Really it is the best for their situation having to pay kov or take on kob who would have his donators backing for one season wouldn't really help.

potter84 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shift wrote:

potter84 wrote:Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

I'm not sure about whay they're going to achieve with a driver pairing of Senna and Pic?

senna is of a similar level to petrov who in turn was a match to kov he can bring in cash and media attention and a wide fan base thus making the Caterham brand more appealing, hopefully if the car is decent snatch a few points if they are lucky. Really it is the best for their situation having to pay kov or take on kob who would have his donators backing for one season wouldn't really help.

Well i'm not convinced about either driver but i guess the budget both drivers bring should help towards a much better car, it worked for Williams last year

pokerman wrote:

potter84 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shift wrote:

potter84 wrote:Just read an article on a for foreign website says Caterham have gone back to Bruno sennas management and asked if their sponsors could up their backing and if so senna can have his 2 year contract he was requesting. I found this strange only because i thought with petrovs sponsors back they were going to keep him, but i guess if true they don't see petrovs sponsors staying for long they did threaten to pull out this year too after all

Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

I'm not sure about whay they're going to achieve with a driver pairing of Senna and Pic?

senna is of a similar level to petrov who in turn was a match to kov he can bring in cash and media attention and a wide fan base thus making the Caterham brand more appealing, hopefully if the car is decent snatch a few points if they are lucky. Really it is the best for their situation having to pay kov or take on kob who would have his donators backing for one season wouldn't really help.

Well i'm not convinced about either driver but i guess the budget both drivers bring should help towards a much better car, it worked for Williams last year

yeah well take them on if they perform great if not they have plenty of cash to invest in car or facilities

potter84 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

potter84 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

shift wrote:Interesting; Caterham is hungry of big money for the next years, we'll see if that means a step forward in terms of car performance.

Hope they conclude something in the next week, tired of waiting. (Force India too).

I'm not sure about whay they're going to achieve with a driver pairing of Senna and Pic?

senna is of a similar level to petrov who in turn was a match to kov he can bring in cash and media attention and a wide fan base thus making the Caterham brand more appealing, hopefully if the car is decent snatch a few points if they are lucky. Really it is the best for their situation having to pay kov or take on kob who would have his donators backing for one season wouldn't really help.

Well i'm not convinced about either driver but i guess the budget both drivers bring should help towards a much better car, it worked for Williams last year

yeah well take them on if they perform great if not they have plenty of cash to invest in car or facilities

I guess that might be the best thing to do in the short term

pokerman wrote:yeah well take them on if they perform great if not they have plenty of cash to invest in car or facilities

I guess that might be the best thing to do in the short term[/quote]

A team would need a very good test driver IMO to get a better feel for how effective their development and upgrades as if it has 2 weaker 'pay' drivers, they could get some misleading results on the track, as #1 their lack of ability could disguise progress made by engineering... #2 if the team is aware of the pay drivers' liabilities, it's possible they could also over-estimate actual improvement because they've come to expect so little of them. I guess the short way of putting it is, the baseline is so poor, it just doesn't allow for a good read.

That's why I really feel its a mistake doubling up on pay drivers on a team, unless you get someone with the rare combination of big sponsors but also with some real speed.... Of course, if a team is drowning in red ink, 2 pay drivers is probably the only way to go to survive

Looks like Caterham will be keeping Petrov: http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/838 ... rham-seat-

In a way I'm glad, but also know that it means Heikki will likely loose his seat.

Too many 'nice guy' drivers and not enough teams to keep them in F1 unfortunately

At this stage we're going to loose at least one of these guys: (1 FI seat, and 1 Caterham seat left unofficially)
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Bruno

Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

potter84 wrote:Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

True!

Although, I wonder if its actually the same sponsor. Maybe he's managed to find a new one.


Back on to seats. Whatever happen we're going to loose at least 5 drivers. As we've lost HRT (2 seats) and have 3 new drivers.

As of right now, (officially) the following are out of a drive:
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Senna
- Pedro
- Narain
- Petrov (although likely to get the Caterham Seat)
- Paul Di Resta (still no official confirmation from anyone that he's got a new contract with FI - but highly likely he has)

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

True!

Although, I wonder if its actually the same sponsor. Maybe he's managed to find a new one.


Back on to seats. Whatever happen we're going to loose at least 5 drivers. As we've lost HRT (2 seats) and have 3 new drivers.

As of right now, (officially) the following are out of a drive:
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Senna
- Pedro
- Narain
- Petrov (although likely to get the Caterham Seat)
- Paul Di Resta (still no official confirmation from anyone that he's got a new contract with FI - but highly likely he has)

i think they should make it up to 12 teams there is too much talent around with not enough seats, i hope brabham cant make a return, i know its not brabham but his son but at least his son is/was a racer too and runs teams in different formula so is not some company who has just paid for the name there is a sense of a family business and the return of a great name, who knows maybe in a few years matt brabham could even step up and have a 3rd generation in f1. He hasn't looked too bad so far in his young career.

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:Well apparently now petrov is all but secured, I'm sure it changes daily. Petrov did get them the 10th in the constructors so would make sense yo stick with him in that respect not til his sponsors have paid up though... Get the feeling Caterham think they may struggle getting the money out of them.

It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

True!

Although, I wonder if its actually the same sponsor. Maybe he's managed to find a new one.


Back on to seats. Whatever happen we're going to loose at least 5 drivers. As we've lost HRT (2 seats) and have 3 new drivers.

As of right now, (officially) the following are out of a drive:
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Senna
- Pedro
- Narain
- Petrov (although likely to get the Caterham Seat)
- Paul Di Resta (still no official confirmation from anyone that he's got a new contract with FI - but highly likely he has)

i think they should make it up to 12 teams there is too much talent around with not enough seats, i hope brabham cant make a return, i know its not brabham but his son but at least his son is/was a racer too and runs teams in different formula so is not some company who has just paid for the name there is a sense of a family business and the return of a great name, who knows maybe in a few years matt brabham could even step up and have a 3rd generation in f1. He hasn't looked too bad so far in his young career.

Personally I'd like to see another two teams drop out, Marussia and Caterham. The new Concorde Agreement says that if the grid falls below 20 then the rest of the remaining grid must run a third car to get numbers back up. We'd get extra seats at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren. Big teams would be able to hire an extra driver, people who have been looking for a chance at a top team would finally get it. We'd have nine extra cars instead of just 6 and the grid would go up from 18, if Caterham and Marussia left, to 27. I'd be fantastic!

That's a good point Laura. Wonder if we'd then get 'No 3' drivers, so Massa and Webber can be demoted...

Seriously though, I'm not opposed to the 3 cars per team idea.

Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:A team would need a very good test driver IMO to get a better feel for how effective their development and upgrades as if it has 2 weaker 'pay' drivers, they could get some misleading results on the track, as #1 their lack of ability could disguise progress made by engineering... #2 if the team is aware of the pay drivers' liabilities, it's possible they could also over-estimate actual improvement because they've come to expect so little of them. I guess the short way of putting it is, the baseline is so poor, it just doesn't allow for a good read.

That's why I really feel its a mistake doubling up on pay drivers on a team, unless you get someone with the rare combination of big sponsors but also with some real speed.... Of course, if a team is drowning in red ink, 2 pay drivers is probably the only way to go to survive

I'm wondering which driver helped to develop the Williams?

Laura23 wrote:

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:It seems to be quite common for sponsors to back out last minute. The same thing happened to Chandhok with HRT - thats (allegedly) why he lost his seat mid season.

well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

True!

Although, I wonder if its actually the same sponsor. Maybe he's managed to find a new one.


Back on to seats. Whatever happen we're going to loose at least 5 drivers. As we've lost HRT (2 seats) and have 3 new drivers.

As of right now, (officially) the following are out of a drive:
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Senna
- Pedro
- Narain
- Petrov (although likely to get the Caterham Seat)
- Paul Di Resta (still no official confirmation from anyone that he's got a new contract with FI - but highly likely he has)

i think they should make it up to 12 teams there is too much talent around with not enough seats, i hope brabham cant make a return, i know its not brabham but his son but at least his son is/was a racer too and runs teams in different formula so is not some company who has just paid for the name there is a sense of a family business and the return of a great name, who knows maybe in a few years matt brabham could even step up and have a 3rd generation in f1. He hasn't looked too bad so far in his young career.

Personally I'd like to see another two teams drop out, Marussia and Caterham. The new Concorde Agreement says that if the grid falls below 20 then the rest of the remaining grid must run a third car to get numbers back up. We'd get extra seats at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren. Big teams would be able to hire an extra driver, people who have been looking for a chance at a top team would finally get it. We'd have nine extra cars instead of just 6 and the grid would go up from 18, if Caterham and Marussia left, to 27. I'd be fantastic!

Good in that respect but team orders may then become a nightmare

The points system would have to change to encompass perhaps the top 16 finishers so other teams than the top teams get a look in

pokerman wrote:

Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:A team would need a very good test driver IMO to get a better feel for how effective their development and upgrades as if it has 2 weaker 'pay' drivers, they could get some misleading results on the track, as #1 their lack of ability could disguise progress made by engineering... #2 if the team is aware of the pay drivers' liabilities, it's possible they could also over-estimate actual improvement because they've come to expect so little of them. I guess the short way of putting it is, the baseline is so poor, it just doesn't allow for a good read.

That's why I really feel its a mistake doubling up on pay drivers on a team, unless you get someone with the rare combination of big sponsors but also with some real speed.... Of course, if a team is drowning in red ink, 2 pay drivers is probably the only way to go to survive

I'm wondering which driver helped to develop the Williams?

I'd say Maldonado was able to push the Williams to its limits. He's definitely lacking in race craft currently, but I'd also say he given the speed he showed and willingness to really challenge, he gave the car a very good shakedown. In terms of development, I think Williams probably got more and better info from him with a drive like Australia where he was stuck to Alonso's tail throughout only to end up point-less when he lost it on the final lap, than a day of driving conservative and trying to find the right strategy to edge the other midfield competitors for a couple points towards down around 8 thru 10.

From Maldonado's stand point the race highlighted his own shortcomings (punted a high-qualifying Grosjean early and either got careless or too aggressive late in the final lap when passing Alonso wasn't going to happen and threw away a P6 finish), but it also really showcased the improvement Williams had made from the 2011 dog. I'm sure Williams had to know after Melbourne that it was definitely on the right path with their development, they were working toward a car that could win races, not just battle for a better spot in the midfield.

I'd say he's one of those "pay drivers" who does bring a bit more than just the money (IMO, there's sort of 3 classes of 'pay drivers' guys with some very definite talent and money.... guys who bring money and are steady and won't really embarrass themselves, too often,.... and then the guys who are basically a joke, but have a license and money.... and sometimes it may take a little while to sort out whether someone falls into the 1st group or the 2nd group, and I do think sometimes guys wind up settling for a place among the 2nd group, happy to be able to have a seat, but given up serious challenges to become someone who wins races unless they somehow win the lotto and luck into a drive with a Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari under some odd circumstances.)

pokerman wrote:

Laura23 wrote:

potter84 wrote:

RickM wrote:

potter84 wrote: well petrov's sponsors were all set to back out at the end of last season so i guess the have reason to doubt, i guess that's why Caterham want the cash up front.

True!

Although, I wonder if its actually the same sponsor. Maybe he's managed to find a new one.


Back on to seats. Whatever happen we're going to loose at least 5 drivers. As we've lost HRT (2 seats) and have 3 new drivers.

As of right now, (officially) the following are out of a drive:
- Heikki
- Kamui
- Senna
- Pedro
- Narain
- Petrov (although likely to get the Caterham Seat)
- Paul Di Resta (still no official confirmation from anyone that he's got a new contract with FI - but highly likely he has)

i think they should make it up to 12 teams there is too much talent around with not enough seats, i hope brabham cant make a return, i know its not brabham but his son but at least his son is/was a racer too and runs teams in different formula so is not some company who has just paid for the name there is a sense of a family business and the return of a great name, who knows maybe in a few years matt brabham could even step up and have a 3rd generation in f1. He hasn't looked too bad so far in his young career.

Personally I'd like to see another two teams drop out, Marussia and Caterham. The new Concorde Agreement says that if the grid falls below 20 then the rest of the remaining grid must run a third car to get numbers back up. We'd get extra seats at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren. Big teams would be able to hire an extra driver, people who have been looking for a chance at a top team would finally get it. We'd have nine extra cars instead of just 6 and the grid would go up from 18, if Caterham and Marussia left, to 27. I'd be fantastic!

Good in that respect but team orders may then become a nightmare

The points system would have to change to encompass perhaps the top 16 finishers so other teams than the top teams get a look in

Simple solution would be just to ban Team Orders again. But if every team can do it then it's still fair to keep them as well.

Perhaps the third driver should be someone who's driven below a certain number of races in the last 24 months or something? Perhaps the points system should be like IndyCar and go from 1st to last? Perhaps only nominate two of your three cars for WCC points but all drives can score for themselves? It'd be very interesting and the more I think about it the more I want it!

Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Z3RoadstarTXF1 wrote:A team would need a very good test driver IMO to get a better feel for how effective their development and upgrades as if it has 2 weaker 'pay' drivers, they could get some misleading results on the track, as #1 their lack of ability could disguise progress made by engineering... #2 if the team is aware of the pay drivers' liabilities, it's possible they could also over-estimate actual improvement because they've come to expect so little of them. I guess the short way of putting it is, the baseline is so poor, it just doesn't allow for a good read.

That's why I really feel its a mistake doubling up on pay drivers on a team, unless you get someone with the rare combination of big sponsors but also with some real speed.... Of course, if a team is drowning in red ink, 2 pay drivers is probably the only way to go to survive

I'm wondering which driver helped to develop the Williams?

I'd say Maldonado was able to push the Williams to its limits. He's definitely lacking in race craft currently, but I'd also say he given the speed he showed and willingness to really challenge, he gave the car a very good shakedown. In terms of development, I think Williams probably got more and better info from him with a drive like Australia where he was stuck to Alonso's tail throughout only to end up point-less when he lost it on the final lap, than a day of driving conservative and trying to find the right strategy to edge the other midfield competitors for a couple points towards down around 8 thru 10.

From Maldonado's stand point the race highlighted his own shortcomings (punted a high-qualifying Grosjean early and either got careless or too aggressive late in the final lap when passing Alonso wasn't going to happen and threw away a P6 finish), but it also really showcased the improvement Williams had made from the 2011 dog. I'm sure Williams had to know after Melbourne that it was definitely on the right path with their development, they were working toward a car that could win races, not just battle for a better spot in the midfield.

I'd say he's one of those "pay drivers" who does bring a bit more than just the money (IMO, there's sort of 3 classes of 'pay drivers' guys with some very definite talent and money.... guys who bring money and are steady and won't really embarrass themselves, too often,.... and then the guys who are basically a joke, but have a license and money.... and sometimes it may take a little while to sort out whether someone falls into the 1st group or the 2nd group, and I do think sometimes guys wind up settling for a place among the 2nd group, happy to be able to have a seat, but given up serious challenges to become someone who wins races unless they somehow win the lotto and luck into a drive with a Red Bull, McLaren or Ferrari under some odd circumstances.)

So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I like the 3rd driver idea but maybe limit 2 per team otherwise lower teams could literally fill with drivers who solely bring money and it could be a worse situation than we have currently, i like the idea if having the third driver as a junior or rookie teams could even have say two junior drivers and swap mid season for a fair amount of drivers to get good f1 experience before needing to fully commit to one or the other as i think the amount of accidents currently has a lot to do with lack of f1experiwnce suddenly being under so much pressure to score for the teams ala grosjean, if not that you really need in season testing because sim and young drivers tests aren't enough in my view

I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Laura23 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Laura23 wrote:

potter84 wrote:Personally I'd like to see another two teams drop out, Marussia and Caterham. The new Concorde Agreement says that if the grid falls below 20 then the rest of the remaining grid must run a third car to get numbers back up. We'd get extra seats at Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren. Big teams would be able to hire an extra driver, people who have been looking for a chance at a top team would finally get it. We'd have nine extra cars instead of just 6 and the grid would go up from 18, if Caterham and Marussia left, to 27. I'd be fantastic!

Good in that respect but team orders may then become a nightmare

The points system would have to change to encompass perhaps the top 16 finishers so other teams than the top teams get a look in

Simple solution would be just to ban Team Orders again. But if every team can do it then it's still fair to keep them as well.

Perhaps the third driver should be someone who's driven below a certain number of races in the last 24 months or something? Perhaps the points system should be like IndyCar and go from 1st to last? Perhaps only nominate two of your three cars for WCC points but all drives can score for themselves? It'd be very interesting and the more I think about it the more I want it!

Me too, get rid of Marussia and Catherham, and no need for Torro Rosso, promote one driver to be the third driver at Red Bull, the other can be the reserve driver sharing Friday practice with the third driver, sorted

RickM wrote:I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

pokerman wrote: So Williams got lucky or they knew what they had with Maldonado after his rookie season so could afford to let go Barrichello?

I'd say probably more luck than anything (though honestly I'm not that familiar with Maldonado's pre-F1 history to know if he came to F1 with a good bit of success at lower levels). But the 2011 Williams was such a dog that I'd say it for sure would have hidden any talent that Maldonado had regardless of whether Williams felt he had some real skill.

I'm not sure of the timing of when decisions were made, but at the end of 2011 there was question about whether Maldonado would lose his backing or not as the Venezuelan congress was looking into whether Chavez overstepped his authority in committing that sponsorship money.

So I'm not sure if Senna was brought in when that issue was still up in the air, and his sponsorship dollars were Williams' security blanket in case PDVSA pulled out or not, or if it was a case of his money being additional dollars on top of that.

I really don't see Rubens as being an either Rubens or Pastor choice for 2012. He had a very good career, but was largely filling space on the grid by 2011.

I think the danger for a team is getting 2 veteran pay drivers who are strictly mediocre and content to be part of the big midfield crowd if the car is good enough to get them into that crowd and if not enjoy the ride and just try to better their teammate.

pokerman wrote:

RickM wrote:I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

Nope. Just 2. We've already lost HRT. There'll be 22 cars on the 2013 grid.

If two more teams dropped out we'd be down to 18, below the 20 the Concorde Agreement stipulates for 2 car teams.

RickM wrote:I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Totally forgot about STR. Probably says it all.

F1 wouldn't be F1 without controversy!

I do like the idea of a rookie in the 3rd car. The lower teams can use it to gain them experience without pressure, especially if only two cars can score WCC points. All teams could use the third car for development too during the races, meaning the FIA could still keep their stupid in season testing ban.

Laura23 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

RickM wrote:I like Laura's idea.

Although it doesnt necessarily have to be Caterham and Marussia. Ditch Toro Rosso - nobody would miss them :p

If we get another investment group trying to run an F1 team (I.E like with HRT) you can pretty much guarantee that'll end in closure.

We're much more likely to loose 2 teams than gain 2 right now. Especially since the likes of Toro Rosso have been up for sale for over a year with no apparent interest, and no interest in HRT either.

3 Cars per team could make it very interesting, but I guess it has the potential to be pretty controversial too!

Well the rules stipulate 3 teams would have to leave to allow for it

Nope. Just 2. We've already lost HRT. There'll be 22 cars on the 2013 grid.

If two more teams dropped out we'd be down to 18, below the 20 the Concorde Agreement stipulates for 2 car teams.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a: Marussia and Toro Roso wont be on the grid in 2014.

Edit: Wait a second. Now that I think about it. Thats not a crazy prediction. If Cosworth dont have engines for 2014 Marussia may well be saying goodbye unless they can get a decent deal with McLaren/Mercedes.