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lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again

The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

Lewis drove brilliantly at Abu Dhabi and Korea but in the second half of the season he was beaten by Jenson at: (when both finished)

Hungary (Lewis' mistake spinning, subsequent drive through penalty for forcing Di Resta off the track when he rejoined the circuit and choosing to pit for Inters)

Monza

Singapore (Lewis recieved a drive through penalty for contact with Massa around lap 12 but he was running down in P7 after the first lap whereas Jenson was up in P2)

Japan

India (Lewis had a 3 place grid-penalty and started just behind Jenson on the grid, Lewis also had to pit later on in the GP after contact with Massa but after the first lap Jenson was up in to P2 whereas Lewis fell back to P6.

No offense, but I don't see how you can claim Lewis soundly beat Jenson in the second half of the 2011 season? Even in the races Lewis had a collision or a penalty, Jenson was ahead of him.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again

The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

most?

in the last 9 races (the second half you mentioned) Lewis beat him in only those 2! how is that "soundly beating him in most of the races". It is not Jenson's fault Lewis had those penalties or collisions, actually Lewis only had himself to blame at the time.

now how can someone question Jenson's motivation and say he is only interested in beating Lewis. actually IIRC last year his aim was to outscore Vettel in the second half (not overall of course), Hamilton was having a bad year and Jenson for those last 9 races was only outscored by Vettel

You are right its not Jenson fault he had those penalties, he took full advantage. But what happens when Lewis stops getting those penalties? 2012. He completely out performed him.

The motivation stuff is a load of tripe, both drivers race to finish as high as possible all the time.

And yes my statement holds. He finished ahead twice. Spa he retired way ahead of JB, Monza Schumacher ran Lewis off track allowing JB passed subsequently getting Lewis stuck behind MS again as he pitted as soon as Lewis passed him.

Singapore, Japan and Brazil 2011 JB was simply the better driver in that 9 race block.

India Lewis looked a lot quicker but the grid penalty and subsequent Massa incident ruined his race.

I only raised this in relation to you saying Jenson was consistently ahead of Lewis, which is nonsense.

The first half of 2011 Lewis was a long way ahead of Jenson and theres not "ifs", he was simply quicker just like Jenson was in that block of 3 races mentioned above.

Actually from what you say, that is SPA, Abudhabi and Korea.
India is speculation as the start would have been very different. and Monza Jenson was right behind Lewis, Lewis couldn't get past MSC but Jenson did, if anything it shows better Judgement and racecraft you can't say Lewis was better than Jenson that day!

still Lewis only was ahead 3 times? that means Jenson was consistently ahead. and if we were going to add SPA to the equation then we might as well add Brazil were Jenson was ahead till Lewis' gearbox decided not to work.

Jenson was consistently ahead during the last 9 races of 2011, i don't see how you can spin that. Lewis's own errors where his undoing last year. he was a lot better this year though!

Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

phfft... wrote:He had a difficult season and still finished just two points behind his extremely well regarded teammate. I see no reason why he couldn't win it next year.

Because there were four other people in front of him even if you remove Lewis that leaves Alonso Vettel
Kimi add to that list a new and improved Massa and Webber .

You then have young Perez who they will have to focus on so Jenson will have less attention not more as some of you think . Mclaren need the WCC .

Perez who's qualifying skills are similar to Jenson's will probably be near him on the grid Perez will want to prove himself so I fear Jenson may get a taste of his own medicine in having to fend off Perez at the start which then allows the Red Bulls to escape and the wily Alonso to slip past .

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again

The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

Lewis drove brilliantly at Abu Dhabi and Korea but in the second half of the season he was beaten by Jenson at: (when both finished)

Hungary (Lewis' mistake spinning, subsequent drive through penalty for forcing Di Resta off the track when he rejoined the circuit and choosing to pit for Inters)

Monza

Singapore (Lewis recieved a drive through penalty for contact with Massa around lap 12 but he was running down in P7 after the first lap whereas Jenson was up in P2)

Japan

India (Lewis had a 3 place grid-penalty and started just behind Jenson on the grid, Lewis also had to pit later on in the GP after contact with Massa but after the first lap Jenson was up in to P2 whereas Lewis fell back to P6.

No offense, but I don't see how you can claim Lewis soundly beat Jenson in the second half of the 2011 season? Even in the races Lewis had a collision or a penalty, Jenson was ahead of him.

I did say when he avoided penalties and collisions.

lamo wrote:Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

Because you said

Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

?

lamo wrote: Example used to show how fickle the casual fan can be. 3 wins in 3 (normal dry conditions) years does not yield titles. 88% of races have been dry since the start of 2010.

JB said last week that the same happened to him in 2009 as it did in 2012, so its not a one off. Thats why I am not too happy he is Mclarens lead driver.

Obviously you believe Lewis is a better lead driver. but since you say 88% of the races are dry and the fact that over 3 years both drivers amassed nearly the same number of points, then a natural conclusion would be that Jenson is not bad in dry weather, far from it! if he was Lewis would have destroyed him in those races, noway to cover a deficit like that in 12% of the races!

Points are what wins championships, and in that regard Jenson and Lewis are equals and if so then both are good enough to lead a team or neither of them is.

and for the record 2009 and 2012 are not in anyway similar. actually 2009 second half he was more often than not ahead of RB. 2012 was very troubling, but nothing like it happened before IMO ( 2003,2004, 2010 or 2011 as examples)

P.S Alonso this year benefited greatly from his wet weather skills in Malasya, Britian, Germany and Brazil, so why is this attack on JB and not Alonso?

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again

The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

Lewis drove brilliantly at Abu Dhabi and Korea but in the second half of the season he was beaten by Jenson at: (when both finished)

Hungary (Lewis' mistake spinning, subsequent drive through penalty for forcing Di Resta off the track when he rejoined the circuit and choosing to pit for Inters)

Monza

Singapore (Lewis recieved a drive through penalty for contact with Massa around lap 12 but he was running down in P7 after the first lap whereas Jenson was up in P2)

Japan

India (Lewis had a 3 place grid-penalty and started just behind Jenson on the grid, Lewis also had to pit later on in the GP after contact with Massa but after the first lap Jenson was up in to P2 whereas Lewis fell back to P6.

No offense, but I don't see how you can claim Lewis soundly beat Jenson in the second half of the 2011 season? Even in the races Lewis had a collision or a penalty, Jenson was ahead of him.

I did say when he avoided penalties and collisions.

I know, but I simply provided evidence that shows Lewis' penalties and collisions happened when Jenson was usually a fair few posistions up the field. If the incidents in Singapore and India hadn't occoured he still would of finished behind Jenson. (Even at Hungary he only had himself to blame for spinning and choosing to pit for Inters.)

lamo wrote: Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

I was talking about the second half, were Lewis was constantly behind and trying to prove motivation is not a problem to another poster. and then you stepped in and said Lewis actually beat him "soundly" in the second half. which nearly threw me off my chair!

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

Because you said

Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

?

Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty)
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint.
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins team mate battle
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

I was talking about the second half, were Lewis was constantly behind and trying to prove motivation is not a problem to another poster. and then you stepped in and said Lewis actually beat him "soundly" in the second half. which nearly threw me off my chair!

Please quote my correctly. Soundly beat "most" of the time I said and the key part was if you missed it first time around was when he was not having collisions or penalties.

If you were talking about the second half it would have been a lot clearer if you had said the second half.

lamo wrote: Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty) NOPE, lewis spun and Jenson was through, penaty was after Lewis switched to inters, before that Jenson was ahead after an on track battle.
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint. So? Jenson passed both him and shumacher, Lewis couldn't take the place back, how can Lewis be better at that race?
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend are you suggesting Lewis wins this based on quali pace?
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Germany, Spa, Korea and Abudhabi. 6-4. Jenson still ahead!

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

Because you said

Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

?

Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty)
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint.
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins team mate battle
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Might want to check who was leading in Hungary when Lewis recieved his penalty pal...

lamo wrote:Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.

What about Monza 2010 when he led the whole way but the team gave him a pit stop nearly a second slower than Alonso? Jenson was side by side with Alonso as Alonso exited the pits.
What about Monaco 2011 when Jenson was leading but McLaren gave him three stints on soft tyres? Everyone knows you do not surrender track position at Monaco but clearly McLaren forgot that on that day, or maybe they had a bunch of monkeys on the pitwall that day.

Jenson is just fine in the dry. He made a title challenge out of it in 2009 despite his car arguably not being the best throughout the whole season - Certainly the Red Bull was the most consistent car.

You are absolutely right though that this win does not paper over the cracks. He has had a very poor season, no doubt about it. However, the confidence comes from the fact that Jenson has succeeded more often than not when he's had strong equipment. You only have to look at 2004, or when he outscored everyone in the last few races of 2006, or 2009-2011. This year the first time he's failed, and one bad year does not make a bad driver.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Example used to show how fickle the casual fan can be. 3 wins in 3 (normal dry conditions) years does not yield titles. 88% of races have been dry since the start of 2010.

JB said last week that the same happened to him in 2009 as it did in 2012, so its not a one off. Thats why I am not too happy he is Mclarens lead driver.

Obviously you believe Lewis is a better lead driver. but since you say 88% of the races are dry and the fact that over 3 years both drivers amassed nearly the same number of points, then a natural conclusion would be that Jenson is not bad in dry weather, far from it! if he was Lewis would have destroyed him in those races, noway to cover a deficit like that in 12% of the races!

Points are what wins championships, and in that regard Jenson and Lewis are equals and if so then both are good enough to lead a team or neither of them is.

and for the record 2009 and 2012 are not in anyway similar. actually 2009 second half he was more often than not ahead of RB. 2012 was very troubling, but nothing like it happened before IMO ( 2003,2004, 2010 or 2011 as examples)

P.S Alonso this year benefited greatly from his wet weather skills in Malasya, Britian, Germany and Brazil, so why is this attack on JB and not Alonso?

Firstly because I am a Mclaren fan and being objective, not 50% of Alonsos career race wins have been in the wet.

Points are not everything, and not always a good reflection. Jenson had 1% less points than Lewis this year. If you were at team boss and had to hire one of the pair, based ENTIRELY on their performance in the car during the 2012 season. Who would you hire?

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

I was talking about the second half, were Lewis was constantly behind and trying to prove motivation is not a problem to another poster. and then you stepped in and said Lewis actually beat him "soundly" in the second half. which nearly threw me off my chair!

Please quote my correctly. Soundly beat "most" of the time I said and the key part was if you missed it first time around was when he was not having collisions or penalties.

If you were talking about the second half it would have been a lot clearer if you had said the second half.

My mistake for not pointing that out, thought it was understood from the context.

"when he was not having collisions or penalties" not a good or viable excuse, If Grosjean didn't crash a lot he would have been WDC.

A weakness he needs to fix, and he did this year.

benmc wrote:

lamo wrote:Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.

What about Monza 2010 when he led the whole way but the team gave him a pit stop nearly a second slower than Alonso? Jenson was side by side with Alonso as Alonso exited the pits.
What about Monaco 2011 when Jenson was leading but McLaren gave him three stints on soft tyres? Everyone knows you do not surrender track position at Monaco but clearly McLaren forgot that on that day, or maybe they had a bunch of monkeys on the pitwall that day.

Jenson is just fine in the dry. He made a title challenge out of it in 2009 despite his car arguably not being the best throughout the whole season - Certainly the Red Bull was the most consistent car.

You are absolutely right though that this win does not paper over the cracks. He has had a very poor season, no doubt about it. However, the confidence comes from the fact that Jenson has succeeded more often than not when he's had strong equipment. You only have to look at 2004, or when he outscored everyone in the last few races of 2006, or 2009-2011. This year the first time he's failed, and one bad year does not make a bad driver.

You are right, he could have had a couple more. But even with those it would still be 50% race wins in wet/dry races.

I think Jenson is a good driver, probably the 4th best on the grid. So read in to that what you will. The problem is, if the Mclaren is equal to the Red Bull and Ferrari I could not see him being able to handle Vettel and/or Alonso.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Your statement was for the entire season, no? Why are you only mentioning the last 9 races? Oh wait those were the ones Jenson did better in.

"but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind."

I was talking about the second half, were Lewis was constantly behind and trying to prove motivation is not a problem to another poster. and then you stepped in and said Lewis actually beat him "soundly" in the second half. which nearly threw me off my chair!

Please quote my correctly. Soundly beat "most" of the time I said and the key part was if you missed it first time around was when he was not having collisions or penalties.

If you were talking about the second half it would have been a lot clearer if you had said the second half.

My mistake for not pointing that out, thought it was understood from the context.

"when he was not having collisions or penalties" not a good or viable excuse, If Grosjean didn't crash a lot he would have been WDC.

A weakness he needs to fix, and he did this year.

If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:People around here really do like to go with "Lewis is better" "when Lewis leaves no one will push him" "no desire" someone even had the balls to say Lewis Leadership!

what seems common is that most think he cannot be consistent enough, 2011 he had 8 podiums and a 4th in the last 9 races.
to play the What if game: If not for Vettel Jenson would have been champion last year and his teammate was Lewis!, don't think that is possible? then don't say Lewis would have been champion this year IF not for DNFs.

Motivation coming from Lewis? well always having a challenging teammate MAY (sometimes things end sour) push you forward, the same for every driver on the grid. but where was Lewis pushing Jenson last year? he was consistently behind. Jenson's win in Canada, Lewis was long gone and Jenson was 30 seconds behind the last car. Motivation?


Given the right machinery he can be WDC again

The bolded is completely incorrect, they finished 7-7 when both finished, won 3 races each. Even in the middle on Jensons great run in the second half Lewis still soundly beat him in most of the races he avoided penalties and collisions in, namely Abu Dhabi and Korea.

Lewis drove brilliantly at Abu Dhabi and Korea but in the second half of the season he was beaten by Jenson at: (when both finished)

Hungary (Lewis' mistake spinning, subsequent drive through penalty for forcing Di Resta off the track when he rejoined the circuit and choosing to pit for Inters)

Monza

Singapore (Lewis recieved a drive through penalty for contact with Massa around lap 12 but he was running down in P7 after the first lap whereas Jenson was up in P2)

Japan

India (Lewis had a 3 place grid-penalty and started just behind Jenson on the grid, Lewis also had to pit later on in the GP after contact with Massa but after the first lap Jenson was up in to P2 whereas Lewis fell back to P6.

No offense, but I don't see how you can claim Lewis soundly beat Jenson in the second half of the 2011 season? Even in the races Lewis had a collision or a penalty, Jenson was ahead of him.

I did say when he avoided penalties and collisions.

He is saying most of those penalties and collisions happened when Lewis was behind Jenson. Which I agree last year Lewis on Massa territory (5-8th place) way too many times....

Button beat Lewis fair and square last year...

Sometimes I am very critical of Button but he drove very well today. He was better than Lewis and both he and Hulk managed to continue on slicks when everybody else switched to interns.... They were 40+ seconds in front of everybody else and if it weren't for safety car, they will have finished miles in front....

You cant even argue that Hamilton was nearly as good as Button in 2011, because Button was on top of his game and Hamilton was frankly, rubbish in every department.

lamo wrote: Firstly because I am a Mclaren fan and being objective, not 50% of Alonsos career race wins have been in the wet.

Points are not everything, and not always a good reflection. Jenson had 1% less points than Lewis this year. If you were at team boss and had to hire one of the pair, based ENTIRELY on their performance in the car during the 2012 season. Who would you hire?

Lewis, but i wouldn't be a team boss if i made my decisions that ill informed.

Points usually are everything, it is what wins championships. Just ask Kimi, or even Maldonado, or Hamilton and Button this year!

Once again i really want to make myself clear that i am not dissing Lewis in any way, he is a great driver. I am just hopelessly trying to prove to you that so is Jenson.

I believe leading a team is about Personalty and bagging the points, Jenson does both. Lewis has no upper hand on him in either.

If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...[/quote]
Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

FormulaFun wrote:You cant even argue that Hamilton was nearly as good as Button in 2011, because Button was on top of his game and Hamilton was frankly, rubbish in every department.

Except for Australia, China, Turkey, Spain, Europe, Germany, Korea and Abu Dhabi were Lewis out qualified and finished on average 2-3 places ahead of Jenson. Although Jenson did not finish in Germany but retired from P5 whilst Lewis was leading.

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty) NOPE, lewis spun and Jenson was through, penaty was after Lewis switched to inters, before that Jenson was ahead after an on track battle.
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint. So? Jenson passed both him and shumacher, Lewis couldn't take the place back, how can Lewis be better at that race?
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend are you suggesting Lewis wins this based on quali pace?
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Germany, Spa, Korea and Abudhabi. 6-4. Jenson still ahead!

Hungary - Lewis re-overtook Jenson after the spin

Monza - I am not suggesting Lewis was better, just giving the facts. Jenson caught the pair just as MS tyres hit the cliff and MS put Lewis on the grass allowing Jenson to pass Lewis. He then Dispatched MS immediately, Lewis then passed the very next lap but MS pitted for fresh rubber and once Lewis pitted was back behind MS (now on fresh rubber) and with 15 kmph straight line advantage and impossible to pass. That sequence of events worked perfectly to completely screw Lewis.

India - if you look at the race where Jenson outperformed Lewis he was always very very close in qualifying. Singapore, Japan and Brazil. When Jenson is around 0.5 down in qualifying he is always slower in the race. 0.1-0.2 between the pair in qualifying and its a close race. We will never know how that one goes without Lewis losing 3 grid places.

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty) NOPE, lewis spun and Jenson was through, penaty was after Lewis switched to inters, before that Jenson was ahead after an on track battle.
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint. So? Jenson passed both him and shumacher, Lewis couldn't take the place back, how can Lewis be better at that race?
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend are you suggesting Lewis wins this based on quali pace?
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Germany, Spa, Korea and Abudhabi. 6-4. Jenson still ahead!

Hungary - Lewis re-overtook Jenson after the spin

Monza - I am not suggesting Lewis was better, just giving the facts. Jenson caught the pair just as MS tyres hit the cliff and MS put Lewis on the grass allowing Jenson to pass Lewis. He then Dispatched MS immediately, Lewis then passed the very next lap but MS pitted for fresh rubber and once Lewis pitted was back behind MS (now on fresh rubber) and with 15 kmph straight line advantage and impossible to pass. That sequence of events worked perfectly to completely screw Lewis.

At Hungary they traded places a few times before Lewis choose to pit for Inters whereas Jenson stayed out on dry tyres (much like Brazil yesterday) then Lewis was given the drive through penalty 2 laps later.

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

Not making excuses, analysing the results. To me I like to know how Jenson Button can beat Lewis Hamilton. He hands down did it in three races - Brazil, Singapore and Japan. This year Australia, Spa and today he even overtook Lewis in a straight fight although Lewis returned the favour and then built a 5 second gap.
2010, he never really did it without tyre gambles or running complete different setup (Monza).

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

Not making excuses, analysing the results. To me I like to know how Jenson Button can beat Lewis Hamilton. He hands down did it in three races - Brazil, Singapore and Japan. This year Australia, Spa and today he even overtook Lewis in a straight fight although Lewis returned the favour and then built a 5 second gap.
2010, he never really did it without tyre gambles or running complete different setup (Monza).

arguments aside, by you evaluation criteria how many times has Lewis beat Jenson in a straight fight? no tyre gambles or different setups?

I am genuinely interested to know, not a trick question.

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

Not making excuses, analysing the results. To me I like to know how Jenson Button can beat Lewis Hamilton. He hands down did it in three races - Brazil, Singapore and Japan. This year Australia, Spa and today he even overtook Lewis in a straight fight although Lewis returned the favour and then built a 5 second gap.
2010, he never really did it without tyre gambles or running complete different setup (Monza).

I wasn't discussing their entire 3 seasons together, you brought up the second half of 2011 and made excuses that Lewis didn't beat him in more races because he had a collision or a penalty.

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Which is true.

Germany,win
Hungary, loses win by getting penalty (ahead of Jenson when takes penalty) NOPE, lewis spun and Jenson was through, penaty was after Lewis switched to inters, before that Jenson was ahead after an on track battle.
Belgian, collision when ahead of Jenson
Italy, ahead of Jenson when run off road by Schumacher. Terrible sequence of events mean he overtake schumacher the lap after Jenson did, but MS undercuts him by pitting and ruinning his next stint. So? Jenson passed both him and shumacher, Lewis couldn't take the place back, how can Lewis be better at that race?
Singapore - Jensons race
Japan - Jensons race
Korea - wins
India - massively quicker than Jenson in qualifying but grid penalty and poor start ruins weekend are you suggesting Lewis wins this based on quali pace?
Abu - wins
Brazil - retired when behind Jenson

Germany, Spa, Korea and Abudhabi. 6-4. Jenson still ahead!

Hungary - Lewis re-overtook Jenson after the spin

Monza - I am not suggesting Lewis was better, just giving the facts. Jenson caught the pair just as MS tyres hit the cliff and MS put Lewis on the grass allowing Jenson to pass Lewis. He then Dispatched MS immediately, Lewis then passed the very next lap but MS pitted for fresh rubber and once Lewis pitted was back behind MS (now on fresh rubber) and with 15 kmph straight line advantage and impossible to pass. That sequence of events worked perfectly to completely screw Lewis.

At Hungary they traded places a few times before Lewis choose to pit for Inters whereas Jenson stayed out on dry tyres (much like Brazil yesterday) then Lewis was given the drive through penalty 2 laps later.

It seems that Lewis and 2011 is the benchmark for Jensons 12 year career and that can't be right because 2011 was a dreadful year for everyone except Sebastian Vettel

Red bull made mincemeat of everyone so to use that year as an example of how Jenson could become WDC doesn't make sense .the way it's portrayed you would imagine a nail biting finale such as this year whereas Vettel had the championship pretty sealed up half way through the year , which incidentally was when Hamilton went ballistic .
He can't take his 2011 points into next year so he'll have to do much better than that to win a WDC again

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:

lamo wrote:

Dam_Noir wrote:If Jenson was having collisions and penalties it would be used against him, not as an excuse for poor driving...

Rightly so, the same for Lewis. He was terrible in that half of the season.

But you said Lewis would of beaten Jenson in those races if it had not been for penalties or collisions, that to me is an excuse.

Not making excuses, analysing the results. To me I like to know how Jenson Button can beat Lewis Hamilton. He hands down did it in three races - Brazil, Singapore and Japan. This year Australia, Spa and today he even overtook Lewis in a straight fight although Lewis returned the favour and then built a 5 second gap.
2010, he never really did it without tyre gambles or running complete different setup (Monza).

arguments aside, by you evaluation criteria how many times has Lewis beat Jenson in a straight fight? no tyre gambles or different setups?

I am genuinely interested to know, not a trick question.

I do not know but from memory this season...

Tempted to say Austin but Buttons qualifying woe adds ambiguity to it so I won't.

Abu Dhabi for sure.
India.
Singapore (although JB was on good form I have to say)
Italy
Hungary
Canada (although JB did not get much Friday running to be fair)
Monaco
Spain

A few others but cases can be made that it was not a straight fight. Like Korea where Lewis was 7 places ahead when JB was taken out.

You'll note some of those races Lewis did not even finish, but for me showed why I rate him that little bit higher than JB. A prime example being Abu Dhabi.

Looking at it from the other side.

JB beating Lewis...
Australia - hands down and a bitter weekend for Lewis and his fans
Malaysia - Race 2 and Jenson still looking strong compared to Lewis but collided with a back marker. I must admit I was worried that Jenson was equal for speed and more consistent than Lewis. However he crashed and fell away from this point onwards.
China - Lewis comes alive, Jenson finishes ahead but 5 place grid penalty hurts Lewis massively.

Jenson hits the setup wall.

Spa - hands down beat Lewis again. But with no Friday running car setup is tricky for all teams and Lewis ends up with a vastly inferior car which he is of course partly to blame for.

Germany - Button has an impressive run to 2nd, I was in the stands cheering for him , but lap 1 puncture for Lewis means we will never know.

Japan - Jenson quicker but later disclosed Lewis had a damper failure for qualifying and race.

Brazil - I would put as a draw, they both impressed me. Jenson for overtaking Lewis and edging away in stint one and Lewis for doing the same in stint two. Again Jenson has uncanny skill of predicting the weather just like his two wins in early 2010.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:

lamo wrote: Firstly because I am a Mclaren fan and being objective, not 50% of Alonsos career race wins have been in the wet.

Points are not everything, and not always a good reflection. Jenson had 1% less points than Lewis this year. If you were at team boss and had to hire one of the pair, based ENTIRELY on their performance in the car during the 2012 season. Who would you hire?

Lewis, but i wouldn't be a team boss if i made my decisions that ill informed.

Points usually are everything, it is what wins championships. Just ask Kimi, or even Maldonado, or Hamilton and Button this year!

Once again i really want to make myself clear that i am not dissing Lewis in any way, he is a great driver. I am just hopelessly trying to prove to you that so is Jenson.

I believe leading a team is about Personalty and bagging the points, Jenson does both. Lewis has no upper hand on him in either.

What does leading a team mean , I've seen Jenson use this term lately and it's often mentioned on this forum in reference to Jenson but I don't hear other teams speak of this role ,I'm puzzled by the term and feel its an illusion or just in his mind , not really a real position with a title like , number 1 driver or Team Principle .

Don't see why not. He will have a great car next year, RB will have some catch up work to do to maintain the same performance, Ferrari can be counted on to screw up somehow. If McLaren have an "off" year and don't screw up in turn as much as they normally do, he could be the dark horse! And he has won before, so why not again?

lamo wrote:

benmc wrote:

lamo wrote:Its amazing how fickle some F1 fans are, Hulk and Lewis don't take one another out today and JB comes home 3rd the new found optimism in here would be half as much. A win is great for his confidence but does not paper over the cracks of a bad season for Jenson, admitted by himself. No world champion could be pleased with his season especially off the back of out scoring Lewis in 2011 on merit.

My worry as a Mclaren fan is that 5 of his 8 Mclaren wins he has needed wet/dry races and some excellent gambles on tyres. It does not rain enough to make a title challenge out of that.

What about Monza 2010 when he led the whole way but the team gave him a pit stop nearly a second slower than Alonso? Jenson was side by side with Alonso as Alonso exited the pits.
What about Monaco 2011 when Jenson was leading but McLaren gave him three stints on soft tyres? Everyone knows you do not surrender track position at Monaco but clearly McLaren forgot that on that day, or maybe they had a bunch of monkeys on the pitwall that day.

Jenson is just fine in the dry. He made a title challenge out of it in 2009 despite his car arguably not being the best throughout the whole season - Certainly the Red Bull was the most consistent car.

You are absolutely right though that this win does not paper over the cracks. He has had a very poor season, no doubt about it. However, the confidence comes from the fact that Jenson has succeeded more often than not when he's had strong equipment. You only have to look at 2004, or when he outscored everyone in the last few races of 2006, or 2009-2011. This year the first time he's failed, and one bad year does not make a bad driver.

You are right, he could have had a couple more. But even with those it would still be 50% race wins in wet/dry races.

I think Jenson is a good driver, probably the 4th best on the grid. So read in to that what you will. The problem is, if the Mclaren is equal to the Red Bull and Ferrari I could not see him being able to handle Vettel and/or Alonso.

As a Jenson fan I agree, although I'd actually rank Kimi slightly higher. Thing is, Jenson doesn't necessarily need a car advantage, he just needs a car that he can get to work consistently, like he did towards the end of 2011. Obviously that isn't the best example since the Red Bull was a little faster at most races, but I thought I'd just throw that out there.