Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread
Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pm
Bottas 10.0 seems to be getting worse as his training gets better.. Maybe he should try training in Mars for next season?
It is the media at first and now the fans that get carried away with these silly Bottas 3.0, 4.0 and upwards. He deserved that 2.0 I guess when he dominated pretty much the only race he ever has at the start of 2019, but other than that, it is getting a bit silly how often this is brought up.schumilegend wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pmBottas 10.0 seems to be getting worse as his training gets better.. Maybe he should try training in Mars for next season?
Bottas did make it easier for Hamilton. It was another example of his awful defending.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pmBoth passes are being discussed though, Hamilton's pass on Bottas was not outstanding it was just a rubbish defence from Bottas, well Hamilton had a lot easier pass on Max because of his driving error, I daresay if that had been Bottas that would be Bottas bottling it and why didn't he cover the inside line.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:55 pmVerstappen only got alongside Bottas. Had Bottas defended the inside he keeps the place DRS or not. It's being commented on because this is a constant issue with Bottas.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:38 pmAlso he keeps beating Perez, I must be missing something beyond seemingly his inability to beat Hamilton as often as some would like, against Max he was on cold tyres and Max also had DRS, let's not mention the slow Mercedes pitstop relative to Red Bull.pc27b wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:58 ami don't understand the constant bad mouthing of bottas. as a fan, would we all have liked vettel, or the last few seasons Verstappen, in the other merc, to see how those battles would go ? of course.
wolf has made it clear over and over that the last two season with Hamilton and rosberg where terrible for the team moral. (tension/arguments)
bottas does what he is hired to do, merc keep winning the constructor's championship. all good for them
I seem to recall a driving error from Max which enabled Hamilton an easy pass, where's the roast on that one?
I wonder what version Hamilton is by now.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pmIt is the media at first and now the fans that get carried away with these silly Bottas 3.0, 4.0 and upwards. He deserved that 2.0 I guess when he dominated pretty much the only race he ever has at the start of 2019, but other than that, it is getting a bit silly how often this is brought up.schumilegend wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pmBottas 10.0 seems to be getting worse as his training gets better.. Maybe he should try training in Mars for next season?
Yes, I agree at Williams he was good at defensive driving. That being said it must be remarked that the Mercedes engine still had a big advantage back then so undoubtedly that extra straight line speed made things easier.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:01 am
I still do wonder what the reason for this occurring so much more often now is though.
Just remembering several races from 2015:
Bahrain - Bottas managed to hold Vettel behind for a large number of laps to the end. Enough for Vettel to start making a few lockups towards the end.
Spain - Kimi was within a second and a half to DRS range for the last 10 laps in a far faster car, and Bottas put in plenty of good defending and kept him behind.
Russia - He dealt with Kimi pretty well and cleared Perez quickly on the last lap - the end result was kimi making a bad move rather than bottas's lack of defence.
In Mexico he was again racing with a Ferrari. It was quite a coincidence that it was Kimi following soon after Russia, but what was interesting about this is it probably was one of Bottas's solid overtakes that wasn't easy. It may have involved an incident, but Kimi should have been aware. Even the commentators were saying that was a brave move from Bottas and that Kimi should have been aware he was there. You have to question where his confidence with these moves has gone. He only seems to often show a bit of aggression at the start of races.
There are plenty of others I could list, but the vast majority of them are when he was at williams. Is he actually less comfortable with this car that it distracts him enough to have blank moments with lack of defence? It does seem strange.
Basically as i thought may be the case. Is he getting too distracted by trying to manage his tyres (which he is also now worse at) that he can't always process doing that while doing a decent defence. Obviously a weakness if it is.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:08 amYes, I agree at Williams he was good at defensive driving. That being said it must be remarked that the Mercedes engine still had a big advantage back then so undoubtedly that extra straight line speed made things easier.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:01 am
I still do wonder what the reason for this occurring so much more often now is though.
Just remembering several races from 2015:
Bahrain - Bottas managed to hold Vettel behind for a large number of laps to the end. Enough for Vettel to start making a few lockups towards the end.
Spain - Kimi was within a second and a half to DRS range for the last 10 laps in a far faster car, and Bottas put in plenty of good defending and kept him behind.
Russia - He dealt with Kimi pretty well and cleared Perez quickly on the last lap - the end result was kimi making a bad move rather than bottas's lack of defence.
In Mexico he was again racing with a Ferrari. It was quite a coincidence that it was Kimi following soon after Russia, but what was interesting about this is it probably was one of Bottas's solid overtakes that wasn't easy. It may have involved an incident, but Kimi should have been aware. Even the commentators were saying that was a brave move from Bottas and that Kimi should have been aware he was there. You have to question where his confidence with these moves has gone. He only seems to often show a bit of aggression at the start of races.
There are plenty of others I could list, but the vast majority of them are when he was at williams. Is he actually less comfortable with this car that it distracts him enough to have blank moments with lack of defence? It does seem strange.
He just doesn't seem hungry now. Maybe the issue is that he's actually become too comfortable? Rich, happy and altogether less desperate for success.
I don't think not being comfortable with the car could be used as an explanation. Why would you need to be comfortable with the car to try and defend your position? And he's still quick.
I don't know. It's possible. He just seems to make bad decisions when racing. He seems massively risk averse as well. That's good to a point but as Hamilton showed on Sunday you need to take risks sometimes.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 11:22 amBasically as i thought may be the case. Is he getting too distracted by trying to manage his tyres (which he is also now worse at) that he can't always process doing that while doing a decent defence. Obviously a weakness if it is.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:08 amYes, I agree at Williams he was good at defensive driving. That being said it must be remarked that the Mercedes engine still had a big advantage back then so undoubtedly that extra straight line speed made things easier.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:01 am
I still do wonder what the reason for this occurring so much more often now is though.
Just remembering several races from 2015:
Bahrain - Bottas managed to hold Vettel behind for a large number of laps to the end. Enough for Vettel to start making a few lockups towards the end.
Spain - Kimi was within a second and a half to DRS range for the last 10 laps in a far faster car, and Bottas put in plenty of good defending and kept him behind.
Russia - He dealt with Kimi pretty well and cleared Perez quickly on the last lap - the end result was kimi making a bad move rather than bottas's lack of defence.
In Mexico he was again racing with a Ferrari. It was quite a coincidence that it was Kimi following soon after Russia, but what was interesting about this is it probably was one of Bottas's solid overtakes that wasn't easy. It may have involved an incident, but Kimi should have been aware. Even the commentators were saying that was a brave move from Bottas and that Kimi should have been aware he was there. You have to question where his confidence with these moves has gone. He only seems to often show a bit of aggression at the start of races.
There are plenty of others I could list, but the vast majority of them are when he was at williams. Is he actually less comfortable with this car that it distracts him enough to have blank moments with lack of defence? It does seem strange.
He just doesn't seem hungry now. Maybe the issue is that he's actually become too comfortable? Rich, happy and altogether less desperate for success.
I don't think not being comfortable with the car could be used as an explanation. Why would you need to be comfortable with the car to try and defend your position? And he's still quick.
I have to ask what could Bottas have done better against Hamilton?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 pmBottas did make it easier for Hamilton. It was another example of his awful defending.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pmBoth passes are being discussed though, Hamilton's pass on Bottas was not outstanding it was just a rubbish defence from Bottas, well Hamilton had a lot easier pass on Max because of his driving error, I daresay if that had been Bottas that would be Bottas bottling it and why didn't he cover the inside line.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:55 pmVerstappen only got alongside Bottas. Had Bottas defended the inside he keeps the place DRS or not. It's being commented on because this is a constant issue with Bottas.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:38 pmAlso he keeps beating Perez, I must be missing something beyond seemingly his inability to beat Hamilton as often as some would like, against Max he was on cold tyres and Max also had DRS, let's not mention the slow Mercedes pitstop relative to Red Bull.pc27b wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:58 ami don't understand the constant bad mouthing of bottas. as a fan, would we all have liked vettel, or the last few seasons Verstappen, in the other merc, to see how those battles would go ? of course.
wolf has made it clear over and over that the last two season with Hamilton and rosberg where terrible for the team moral. (tension/arguments)
bottas does what he is hired to do, merc keep winning the constructor's championship. all good for them
I seem to recall a driving error from Max which enabled Hamilton an easy pass, where's the roast on that one?
I'm not sure what Max has to do with it but there's literally a thread made to discuss his mistakes. It's not exactly being swept under the carpet.
I think Hamilton is an unusual variety that simply keeps getting better with age, I guess it belies just how immature he was in the first part of his F1 career.Invade wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:56 pmI wonder what version Hamilton is by now.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:45 pmIt is the media at first and now the fans that get carried away with these silly Bottas 3.0, 4.0 and upwards. He deserved that 2.0 I guess when he dominated pretty much the only race he ever has at the start of 2019, but other than that, it is getting a bit silly how often this is brought up.schumilegend wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pmBottas 10.0 seems to be getting worse as his training gets better.. Maybe he should try training in Mars for next season?
To me it looks like Bottas has kinda capped out in the current environment.
I know you like the missed apex podcast. Have you listened to the Portuguese GP edition yet? They sum up my thoughts on the matter well.pokerman wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:54 pmI have to ask what could Bottas have done better against Hamilton?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 pmBottas did make it easier for Hamilton. It was another example of his awful defending.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pmBoth passes are being discussed though, Hamilton's pass on Bottas was not outstanding it was just a rubbish defence from Bottas, well Hamilton had a lot easier pass on Max because of his driving error, I daresay if that had been Bottas that would be Bottas bottling it and why didn't he cover the inside line.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:55 pmVerstappen only got alongside Bottas. Had Bottas defended the inside he keeps the place DRS or not. It's being commented on because this is a constant issue with Bottas.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 2:38 pm
Also he keeps beating Perez, I must be missing something beyond seemingly his inability to beat Hamilton as often as some would like, against Max he was on cold tyres and Max also had DRS, let's not mention the slow Mercedes pitstop relative to Red Bull.
I seem to recall a driving error from Max which enabled Hamilton an easy pass, where's the roast on that one?
I'm not sure what Max has to do with it but there's literally a thread made to discuss his mistakes. It's not exactly being swept under the carpet.
For myself I just see a collision and I guess that Bottas did as well, such a risk you might take against Max but not your teammate. We also have to contemplate a race ending collision or at least a gifted win for Max, how would that make Bottas' future job prospects?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 5:05 pmI know you like the missed apex podcast. Have you listened to the Portuguese GP edition yet? They sum up my thoughts on the matter well.pokerman wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:54 pmI have to ask what could Bottas have done better against Hamilton?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 pmBottas did make it easier for Hamilton. It was another example of his awful defending.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pmBoth passes are being discussed though, Hamilton's pass on Bottas was not outstanding it was just a rubbish defence from Bottas, well Hamilton had a lot easier pass on Max because of his driving error, I daresay if that had been Bottas that would be Bottas bottling it and why didn't he cover the inside line.
I'm not sure what Max has to do with it but there's literally a thread made to discuss his mistakes. It's not exactly being swept under the carpet.
Put it this way... Rolls reversed and it's Bottas attempting to overtake Hamilton with the same run down the straight do you seriously think Bottas makes the pass? I don't. Hamilton would successfully defend well enough to keep position.
I'm not so sure why you'd guarantee that, considering how Perez has raced teammates in the past. If he legitimately thought he could hold Max behind him, I think he'd risk it.
But Hamilton seemed happy with that risk? I don't see why Bottas not conceding the racing line causes a crash?pokerman wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:45 pmFor myself I just see a collision and I guess that Bottas did as well, such a risk you might take against Max but not your teammate. We also have to contemplate a race ending collision or at least a gifted win for Max, how would that make Bottas' future job prospects?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 5:05 pmI know you like the missed apex podcast. Have you listened to the Portuguese GP edition yet? They sum up my thoughts on the matter well.pokerman wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 3:54 pmI have to ask what could Bottas have done better against Hamilton?mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 pmBottas did make it easier for Hamilton. It was another example of his awful defending.pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pm
Both passes are being discussed though, Hamilton's pass on Bottas was not outstanding it was just a rubbish defence from Bottas, well Hamilton had a lot easier pass on Max because of his driving error, I daresay if that had been Bottas that would be Bottas bottling it and why didn't he cover the inside line.
I'm not sure what Max has to do with it but there's literally a thread made to discuss his mistakes. It's not exactly being swept under the carpet.
Put it this way... Rolls reversed and it's Bottas attempting to overtake Hamilton with the same run down the straight do you seriously think Bottas makes the pass? I don't. Hamilton would successfully defend well enough to keep position.
I can guarantee run that back with Perez being in Bottas' position against Max and there's no way he's risking a collision.
False I'm afraid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjZnd3V7JwI - Check 3:05 and 3:06 you can compare the position of their cars to the white line on track and see Bottas is actually just ahead on turn in.pokerman wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 3:31 pmHamilton was in front and picked his line through the corner leaving racing room on the inside, there's no way that Bottas could have got back in front without contact, he neither had the momentum going into the corner, the positioning or the line to take the same speed through the corner as Hamilton.
If it is wet, then this time he could well do. If it is dry, It is very unlikely that any others will finish ahead of him. Red bull is the only team that looks close on race day and Perez is nowhere near.schumilegend wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:35 pmUnnecessary derogatory comments about Bottas, removed by moderation team
I would say this was slightly worse than a typical bottas performance. He was 26 seconds behind Hamilton despite having the same number of pit stops and one of them even giving him a bit of an undercut. But he still finished 26 seconds behind and that doesn't include the 8 seconds or so he lost before the safety car.
Neither of them is a title contender. But I think Perez knows that, whereas Bottas (as you say) suffers from some level of delusion in regards to his ability to match Hamilton.
In this case maybe not, apparently Bottas pulled up slightly short of his pit box which meant the gun went on at an angle which lead to the damaged wheel nut, Bottas was responsible for the out come.
Drivers stop short or go past their marks all the time and we don't see this and besides, the other 3 wheel guns worked well enough. This reeks of desperation to pin the blame on Bottas, undeservedly, to me.
Black_Flag_11 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:15 amDrivers stop short or go past their marks all the time and we don't see this and besides, the other 3 wheel guns worked well enough. This reeks of desperation to pin the blame on Bottas, undeservedly, to me.
Pictures show this isn't true.
Siao7 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:24 amBlack_Flag_11 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:15 amDrivers stop short or go past their marks all the time and we don't see this and besides, the other 3 wheel guns worked well enough. This reeks of desperation to pin the blame on Bottas, undeservedly, to me.
Good find. To me it looks like Bottas has perfectly lined up the car and it is indeed the mechanic that's in the wrong position (partly because the new tyre is blocking him).mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:33 amPictures show this isn't true.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... claimed_by
Even if it was it still wouldn't make Bottas responsible. It's pretty odd with Toto's so called no blame culture that he seems very happy to falsely blame Bottas here.
come on toto. ridiculous statement. so the "wheel gun guy" never, ever adjusts the angle of the gun ? just laughable
While I am pretty certain it will be Russell if Bottas gets replaced next year, I'm not convinced Russell is showing to be any better than Bottas overall - yet. He had a great one off performance in Bahrian and several stand outs at williams, but even this year, his poor starts still occur too often. I would say at least a third of his launches in his F1 career have been bad enough to lose a couple of positions had he started further up. While he will likely be better than Bottas at recovering them, this mistake will be very costly at certain tracks. It won't be car related as Kubica frequently had launches where he passed a few cars off the line. And Latifi did that more than Russell too I believe -but didn't keep them. He's also not been anywhere near as impressive on a sunday compared to a saturday in most of the races - like Bottas. This isn't always a problem though. But if people question Latifi even deserving to be in F1, there were a few races last year where Latifi was very close, and last race was another example.pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 1:55 pmWolff seemingly didn't want to blame the team either for Hamilton's poor strategy, is he just being over defensive?
In respect to Bottas it perhaps doesn't say much for his position within the team amongst strong rumours he's going to get replaced by Russell for next year.
It makes you wonder how cordial things are, Bottas basically ignoring a team order, Wolff blaming Bottas for something that's not his fault.
Where does Bottas go from here, he's almost out of the title race already, how soon will he be called upon to help Hamilton, if he's to be replaced next year will he choose to help, if he doesn't help may he even get replaced mid season by Russell?
I really can't understand this comment either. Stroll is probably one of the worst for lining up his car correctly at the pit stop and his team has no problem with it. And I even remember maldonado having a break problem one time and crashing into the front jack man and he overlapped the pit box by over a metre i think. But I believe they still got the job done.mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:33 amPictures show this isn't true.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... claimed_by
Even if it was it still wouldn't make Bottas responsible. It's pretty odd with Toto's so called no blame culture that he seems very happy to falsely blame Bottas here.
It is precisely the same as stripping a screw, except that in this case the driver goes on the outside of the 'screw' instead of the inside. Otherwise, no different.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:51 pmHow can being a tiny fraction too far forward / back possibly be related to this? I would have thought that they started turning the machine (don't know the name) before putting it on the wheel and then that wrecked it. Similar to slipping on a screw with a screw driver. I don't see how it can't have either been a mistake that mechanic made, or an overtightened / cross threaded nut.
But Bottas's position was absolutely fine. We've seen far worse positions, people overshooting the position and hitting the mechanic with the front jack. The tools have flexible hoses for that exact reason, they are to be moved. It is a terrible reach from Toto (and from whoever brought this up) to try and blame Bottas. Golden balls didn't do well in one race and it's the team's fault. The team actually messes something up and it is... Bottas's fault? Give us a break. Double standards and all that. Bottas is caught in a weird Webber/Rubens situation, he needs to move for his own good; but where to go, would you leave the best car?Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 11:17 pmIt is precisely the same as stripping a screw, except that in this case the driver goes on the outside of the 'screw' instead of the inside. Otherwise, no different.TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:51 pmHow can being a tiny fraction too far forward / back possibly be related to this? I would have thought that they started turning the machine (don't know the name) before putting it on the wheel and then that wrecked it. Similar to slipping on a screw with a screw driver. I don't see how it can't have either been a mistake that mechanic made, or an overtightened / cross threaded nut.
Having worked with screws and power tools pretty much my whole life, this can only be the fault of the man on the wheel gun. Applying too much power at the wrong angle will strip a screw; also, applying power when not properly positioned behind the drill.
If Bottas came into his pit box incorrectly, it was up to the mechanic to reposition himself properly before applying power to the wheel. Bottas' pit box entry may have been a contributing factor, but it can not be his fault that the wheel flanges were destroyed.
Planet F1 reported that even Ferrari had a go after the GP concluded, with the same result; they couldn't get it off!tootsie323 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 9:57 amIf Wolff is suggesting that Bottas is primarily responsible for the wheel nut issue, surely he is barking up the wrong tree?
Edit: no pun intended with the use of Wolff and bark in the same sentence...