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Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:38 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

I guess it's just coincidence that Vettel's talent seems to come undone when paired against tier 1 drivers, in the last 7 years he will have taken 3 defeats to teammates yet in 2017 and 2018 he was carrying the car?

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....

The Red Bull years clearly produced the best cars that Vettel ever drove, often dominant cars, Ferrari never gave Vettel a dominant car over a season but still cars good enough to challenge for a WDC in particular in 2018, there was reliability issues in 2017.

If you want to down grade Ricciardo's level than that by comparison only in turn impacts worse on Vettel, this also applies to Leclerc, you are criticising a driver that is beating Vettel.

Triangle (or square, in this case) do not always work. The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.

It's hard to know in the long term, Vettel's stats will take him a fair way but the likes of Jack Brabham seem to get little recognition for his 3 titles opposed to someone like Moss with no titles.

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:04 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:19 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm

The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.

You're right; that's why Stirling Moss has faded into anonymity, and we never waste any time talking about whether Senna was better than Prost. It really is all about the record.

And have you reached a conclusion yet.....?

My conclusion was that your point is obviously false. Sorry if my sarcasm didn't come across.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:14 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:04 am

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:19 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm

The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.

You're right; that's why Stirling Moss has faded into anonymity, and we never waste any time talking about whether Senna was better than Prost. It really is all about the record.

And have you reached a conclusion yet.....?

My conclusion was that your point is obviously false. Sorry if my sarcasm didn't come across.

Why is it false? Triangle theories never work.

It's now or never for Bottas I feel. For the first time since the opener, he's finally taken a decent chunk of points out of Hamilton. With a penalty point fiasco looming over the points leader, Bottas needs to whittle the gap down some more.

You have to go back to the Bahrain and Chinese Grand Prix's of 2018 to find an example of Bottas outscoring Hamilton for two races in a row. Now is a better time than any to do it again.

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:19 pm

It's now or never for Bottas I feel. For the first time since the opener, he's finally taken a decent chunk of points out of Hamilton. With a penalty point fiasco looming over the points leader, Bottas needs to whittle the gap down some more.

You have to go back to the Bahrain and Chinese Grand Prix's of 2018 to find an example of Bottas outscoring Hamilton for two races in a row. Now is a better time than any to do it again.

This is one reason why I thought Bottas's 2018 season was rather underrated. He was poor at the end, but would possibly say the first half was his best season opener even including australia. A lot seemed to not look into his bad luck at this stage that will have more than made up the difference from 5th to 3rd in the standings. He was unlucky in both China and Baku. he actually was on target to beat hamilton 3 times in a row, with China and Baku on merit.


One of the biggest problems with Bottas is that bad luck seems to effect his motivation. Maybe this win will help him improve a little for the rest of the season.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:36 pm

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:19 pm

It's now or never for Bottas I feel. For the first time since the opener, he's finally taken a decent chunk of points out of Hamilton. With a penalty point fiasco looming over the points leader, Bottas needs to whittle the gap down some more.

You have to go back to the Bahrain and Chinese Grand Prix's of 2018 to find an example of Bottas outscoring Hamilton for two races in a row. Now is a better time than any to do it again.

This is one reason why I thought Bottas's 2018 season was rather underrated. He was poor at the end, but would possibly say the first half was his best season opener even including australia. A lot seemed to not look into his bad luck at this stage that will have more than made up the difference from 5th to 3rd in the standings. He was unlucky in both China and Baku. he actually was on target to beat hamilton 3 times in a row, with China and Baku on merit.


One of the biggest problems with Bottas is that bad luck seems to effect his motivation. Maybe this win will help him improve a little for the rest of the season.

Yeah I agree with this BIB. He seems to be in a rut or confident. For example he was good at the start of last season and would 2 in 4 and then won 2 in 3 later in the season with the other being a good race in Mexico. For a lot in the middle of those two, he was a bit nowhere, like he has been for quite a bit of this season since Austria.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:36 pm

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:19 pm

It's now or never for Bottas I feel. For the first time since the opener, he's finally taken a decent chunk of points out of Hamilton. With a penalty point fiasco looming over the points leader, Bottas needs to whittle the gap down some more.

You have to go back to the Bahrain and Chinese Grand Prix's of 2018 to find an example of Bottas outscoring Hamilton for two races in a row. Now is a better time than any to do it again.

This is one reason why I thought Bottas's 2018 season was rather underrated. He was poor at the end, but would possibly say the first half was his best season opener even including australia. A lot seemed to not look into his bad luck at this stage that will have more than made up the difference from 5th to 3rd in the standings. He was unlucky in both China and Baku. he actually was on target to beat hamilton 3 times in a row, with China and Baku on merit.


One of the biggest problems with Bottas is that bad luck seems to effect his motivation. Maybe this win will help him improve a little for the rest of the season.

It certainly wasn't as bad a season as it was made to look. I know Hamilton had a sketchy start and didn't really hook up a weekend until Spain, but VB had so many points taken away from him in those races. Then of course he had to relinquish a near certain win in Sochi.

Happy for Bottas but have to say the "f you" to his critics comment doesn't really work this time, with Hamilton out of the running. Had Hamilton not had is penalty there's every indication this would have been another follow-my-leader weekend. Not trying to take the win away as such, just saying I don't feel this win proves anything other than he can pick up the pieces when Hamilton has an off-day, but we know that already.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:11 pm

Happy for Bottas but have to say the "f you" to his critics comment doesn't really work this time, with Hamilton out of the running. Had Hamilton not had is penalty there's every indication this would have been another follow-my-leader weekend. Not trying to take the win away as such, just saying I don't feel this win proves anything other than he can pick up the pieces when Hamilton has an off-day, but we know that already.

It shows he has been reading social media and it has got to him. To me it also show something about your mental state, fair enough if you took it to Hamilton and beat him to turn 2 but it was a inherited win. Was he being serious about the bee after the race? He has had so many excuses this year his no coming out with one about a bee why he went wide at turn 2.

F1_Ernie wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:02 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:11 pm

Happy for Bottas but have to say the "f you" to his critics comment doesn't really work this time, with Hamilton out of the running. Had Hamilton not had is penalty there's every indication this would have been another follow-my-leader weekend. Not trying to take the win away as such, just saying I don't feel this win proves anything other than he can pick up the pieces when Hamilton has an off-day, but we know that already.

It shows he has been reading social media and it has got to him. To me it also show something about your mental state, fair enough if you took it to Hamilton and beat him to turn 2 but it was a inherited win. Was he being serious about the bee after the race? He has had so many excuses this year his no coming out with one about a bee why he went wide at turn 2.

I thought the bee comment was weird. He didn't need to make an excuse for that, he won the race anyway!

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:11 pm

Happy for Bottas but have to say the "f you" to his critics comment doesn't really work this time, with Hamilton out of the running. Had Hamilton not had is penalty there's every indication this would have been another follow-my-leader weekend. Not trying to take the win away as such, just saying I don't feel this win proves anything other than he can pick up the pieces when Hamilton has an off-day, but we know that already.

I agree, I'm not sure how he can believe that today's drive (or indeed his whole weekend) addresses his critics in any way. I'd be reserving those comments for races where he outqualifies and beats Hamilton on pace alone, because he's shown in the past that he is capable of it.

i thought that message made little sense this time. Although i think if Hamilton didn't have these penalties, it will have been a similar situation to the USA last year. other than in Q3 I think Bottas has had Hamilton's pace this weekend, and with the better strategy, i for once think it is quite likely that Bottas will have had a big enough advantage to pass by the end. But as people say, today's race didn't really show that he's sorted the fact that he's almost always slower than Hamilton out. But then i don't think that deserves the critisism it gets - hamilton is just too good!

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time. Although i think if Hamilton didn't have these penalties, it will have been a similar situation to the USA last year. other than in Q3 I think Bottas has had Hamilton's pace this weekend, and with the better strategy, i for once think it is quite likely that Bottas will have had a big enough advantage to pass by the end. But as people say, today's race didn't really show that he's sorted the fact that he's almost always slower than Hamilton out. But then i don't think that deserves the critisism it gets - hamilton is just too good!

I don't think Bottas would have overtaken Hamilton. We've not seen anything from him that would suggest that.

The most encouraging thing I saw from him was that he at least made an OK attempt to overtake into turn 1-2 rather than just backing out and following meekly behind.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

I think the bumps have altered the track and made it more difficult to drive as we saw in some of the qualifying gaps, it was a strong track for Bottas when it was super smooth.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:24 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time. Although i think if Hamilton didn't have these penalties, it will have been a similar situation to the USA last year. other than in Q3 I think Bottas has had Hamilton's pace this weekend, and with the better strategy, i for once think it is quite likely that Bottas will have had a big enough advantage to pass by the end. But as people say, today's race didn't really show that he's sorted the fact that he's almost always slower than Hamilton out. But then i don't think that deserves the critisism it gets - hamilton is just too good!

I don't think Bottas would have overtaken Hamilton. We've not seen anything from him that would suggest that.

The most encouraging thing I saw from him was that he at least made an OK attempt to overtake into turn 1-2 rather than just backing out and following meekly behind.

Given that his long run pace looked good during practice and when he was last on far fresher tyres behind Hamilton (USA last year) he managed it. I still think he will have managed it this time with the advantage he had.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

Oh come on, Bottas got smashed in qualifying then had to do nothing but bring the car home.

F1_Ernie wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:52 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

Oh come on, Bottas got smashed in qualifying then had to do nothing but bring the car home.

And nobody has any proof that he couldn't even match hamilton with the advantage he had... What I'm saying is you can't claim that bottas won't have matched or beaten him in the race - given as i have said many times - he had a huge advantage... Bigger than any other this year. Even in britain he managed to stay close to hamilton. With significently better tyres, i personally think he will have managed to pass like the last time bottas was in this situation in the USA last year but yea we can't prove anything

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:37 pm

F1_Ernie wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:52 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:19 am

i thought that message made little sense this time.

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

Oh come on, Bottas got smashed in qualifying then had to do nothing but bring the car home.

And nobody has any proof that he couldn't even match hamilton with the advantage he had... What I'm saying is you can't claim that bottas won't have matched or beaten him in the race - given as i have said many times - he had a huge advantage... Bigger than any other this year. Even in britain he managed to stay close to hamilton. With significently better tyres, i personally think he will have managed to pass like the last time bottas was in this situation in the USA last year but yea we can't prove anything

Your talking about what ifs though and Bottas didn't have a huge advantage. Looking back at the weekend that just happened Bottas got smashed in qualifying and lucked into a win, it was nothing to silence the doubters. I don't think Bottas matched Hamilton at all, Hamilton just had a brain fart moment and the penalty could have been anything or not have even affected the race.

That Bottas can drive a race without messing up is clear. It's also clear he's got a fair bit of speed, he wouldn't be around in F1 for this long without it.

But yeah, being parked by your teammate in quali and handed the win without having to fight for it, offensive nor defensive, is not the way to silence any critics. I mean even Maldonado managed to hold on to the first position for an entire race, and at least he got the car on pole to begin with.

Lord Crc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:25 pm

That Bottas can drive a race without messing up is clear. It's also clear he's got a fair bit of speed, he wouldn't be around in F1 for this long without it.

But yeah, being parked by your teammate in quali and handed the win without having to fight for it, offensive nor defensive, is not the way to silence any critics. I mean even Maldonado managed to hold on to the first position for an entire race, and at least he got the car on pole to begin with.

The irony is that he didn't really, Hamilton was half a second clear and would have won the race but the bumbling McLaren mechanic managed to get him disqualified in qualifying so the circumstances were close to the same.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

The race doesn't mean much, that's true. I think it's more the expectation gap that led me to write that: Sochi was supposed to be a place Bottas could out-qualify Hamilton and beat him in a straight fight, and instead he needed multiple counts of luck to win.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:35 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:22 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:26 am

Yeah, agreed. The original 'to whom it may concern' message came after Bottas beat Hamilton into turn one and then opened a dominant gap of 20 seconds before the flag. That was a commanding performance (even if it was aided by some damage on Lewis' car), and truly did something to silence his doubters.

This was a lucky win, and proved nothing -- except that Bottas, even at his historically strongest track, can't match his teammate.

Agree with most of this other than what you last point out. How does this lucky win prove that he can't match his team mate? There isn't proof that he wouldn't have won it either, it was just made easier and with all that happened, i think we can say Bottas at least matched Hamilton this weekend or did a better job. I know that is rarely the case though.

The race doesn't mean much, that's true. I think it's more the expectation gap that led me to write that: Sochi was supposed to be a place Bottas could out-qualify Hamilton and beat him in a straight fight, and instead he needed multiple counts of luck to win.

Still don't see how exactly there is evidence of this. It can't be confirmed that he needed Hamilton to have those penalties to beat him. The worse strategy was only one, not multiple lucky points to his race and that could still have been enough. My point being that we can't confirm for certain that he needed hamilton to make every single mistake he made to win. there was no evidence on race day that Bottas was struggling on his stints which given it is his normal weakness, i think qualifying was a rare poor show from him and he had the pace with the advantage of the strategy to beat hamilton on merit. But guess as usual very few can agree with me. we can't know for certain, but i also don't see how you can imply that Bottas needed hamilton to suffer all that he did for Bottas to have a chance at winning. Bottas likely needed at least Hamilton's weaker strategy, but I certainly think that was enough to give him a good chance. There is no evidence that he needed hamilton to have a 10 second penalty at all.

I do believe that had all things been equal and hamilton had started ahead and been ahead in the first corner, he likely will have won, but this is just as much as a what if as what i have been saying about Bottas.

Mercedes didn't fill Hamiltons car up for 2 runs in Q2 after Hamiltons lap was deleted. Mercedes didn't send Hamilton out for his second run in Q2 before the traffic, yellow flag to stop Hamiltons second run. Hamilton begged for medium tyres but Mercedes made the final call. You could even add that Mercedes is the only engine that the MGU-K cant turn the engine back on so that stopped Hamilton going to the head of queue.Then there was Sundays error. Luck that favoured Bottas on a Saturday when he was awful and got beaten by Verstappen, great effort by Verstappen but Bottas shouldn't be beaten to 2nd place.

Bottas seems to be on a different level mentally this season, maybe Hamilton has got to him more than ever. The amount of excuses we have heard from Bottas this season including black overalls, a bee caused him to go off and all sorts. Then the radio message after Russia which actually made him look stupid rather than a f you to his critics. Fair play if he goes on and does it over a number of races, he has the speed but I just think he lacks in other departments and hearing all the different versions of Bottas doesn't help either, I've lost count.

you call him mentioning black overalls getting hot as an excuse? He was just pointing out that they get hot on a hot day... Don't see much wrong with that when it litrally is true - black soaks in heat. When did he ever say they were effecting his pace? I also think while he made a mistake of what flew by him at the start (which was a small peice of something from Hamilton's car), that could indeed have been a distraction and it could have been worse than it was. That excuse was relevant, the words he used just sounded a bit strange.


Hamilton did beg for mediums, but as some pointed out in the qualifying thread, softs were worth using simply because he may not have been able to get the mediums to the ideal temperature for the lap. not enough fuel in the car for 2 laps to begin with will likely be the case for everyone, and Hamilton was the one who did a poor first lap. I think we can only really blame hamilton for the situation he put himself into as he started it all. But yea it was lucky for Bottas.

I think Bottas's message at the end of this race was silly, but don't think many of his other comments haven't had a more reasonable reason behind them. A lot of them are when he's been asked something by the media and if he has to say something when he's clearly been beaten, excuses are often the case by many drivers even if they are not very well thought out. Given it is right after they get out the car, I don't think it is the best time to take them that seriously. At other times, bottas is usually very hard on himself and describes Hamilton's strengths vs his weaknesses pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gquVGoeYHsM

Well this video is both cruel, but also rather funny at times. Although I usually hate memes and thing they are just stupid childish videos. But there are some pretty relevant ones in this!

Maybe people may find this interesting despite it being about Bottas!

There's been a worrying trend in races this season where Bottas just doesn't seem to be able to make tyres last for full stints to anything like the extent that Hamilton can. It was in evidence today and to an extent even the last race.

Even in the opening race of the season in Austria, before safety car shenanigans, Hamilton had closed right up to him in stint 1 despite having to work his way through other cars.

I think the very changeable winds also negatively affected Bottas, whereas Hamilton has more natural instincts and adaptability and dealt very well with the tricky weather other than at the start. Huge gap in performance between the two drivers today.

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

The reality is that both drivers have lost the same amount of points, Hamilton not as obvious because of stewards decisions and a qualifying fiasco, we basically need Hamilton to have 100% of the bad luck like what we saw in 2016 and like you say that also needs to be combined with a dominant car.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

The reality is that both drivers have lost the same amount of points, Hamilton not as obvious because of stewards decisions and a qualifying fiasco, we basically need Hamilton to have 100% of the bad luck like what we saw in 2016 and like you say that also needs to be combined with a dominant car.

That's true enough.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

The reality is that both drivers have lost the same amount of points, Hamilton not as obvious because of stewards decisions and a qualifying fiasco, we basically need Hamilton to have 100% of the bad luck like what we saw in 2016 and like you say that also needs to be combined with a dominant car.

Hamilton has to be held partly responsible for his actions in Italy and Russia though. He also could have easily backed off in the first race (as well as qualifying come to think of it) to avoid his penalty. Bottas's two zero point finishes were both totally out of his control. Hamilton has certainly lost some points this year, but most of what he has lost have been avoidable had he done things differently himself.

So in terms of bad luck, I don't think it is very close in terms of points lost.

Either way, it's fascinating to consider just how close Bottas could have been in the WDC race because the Merc is so dominant if luck were on his side. Yet he hasn't been in league with Hamilton.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:44 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

The reality is that both drivers have lost the same amount of points, Hamilton not as obvious because of stewards decisions and a qualifying fiasco, we basically need Hamilton to have 100% of the bad luck like what we saw in 2016 and like you say that also needs to be combined with a dominant car.

Hamilton has to be held partly responsible for his actions in Italy and Russia though. He also could have easily backed off in the first race (as well as qualifying come to think of it) to avoid his penalty. Bottas's two zero point finishes were both totally out of his control. Hamilton has certainly lost some points this year, but most of what he has lost have been avoidable had he done things differently himself.

So in terms of bad luck, I don't think it is very close in terms of points lost.

True but it's not something you can rely on for next year, the points as they stand at the moment is a true reflection of the performance of the 2 drivers.

Also they can be called debateable penalties when other drivers are not penalised for similar incidents and at Monza it seems most opinion looks to blame the team.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:58 pm

Either way, it's fascinating to consider just how close Bottas could have been in the WDC race because the Merc is so dominant if luck were on his side. Yet he hasn't been in league with Hamilton.

Yes it's often the case with a dominant car that it gives best chance for the weaker driver to be WDC inpart because of the points system, a pet whinge of mine.

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:58 pm

Either way, it's fascinating to consider just how close Bottas could have been in the WDC race because the Merc is so dominant if luck were on his side. Yet he hasn't been in league with Hamilton.

It also shows how much raw speed is only a factor in making a great driver. In terms of raw speed, there isn't a massive amount between either of them - however Hamilton is a different league as a package.

A level above, dominant car, and the better of the luck - this is Hamiltons easiest championship yet.

However - I agree completely - it is crazy to think that things only need to happen slightly differently and Bottas could be right in the hunt with a 100pt swing.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:59 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:44 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:32 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:28 pm

So is (was) this Bottas' last chance for the WDC? Or will Mercedes just create another behemoth and destroy RBR again, giving Bottas another slim chance at a title?

Imagine that the Silverstone and Eifel GP fortunes were reversed. Bottas would now be right in the hunt for a Championship despite having been much worse than Hamilton throughout the season. Bottas has had 1 DNF and a virtual DNF and Hamilton has had 0. All it takes is a bit of luck, but it will likely only be meaningful if Mercedes have an extremely dominant car. Otherwise, what sort of hope can Bottas have in outdueling both Hamilton and Verstappen if RBR are able to compete? Pretty much zero, no?

But if Mercedes crush it yet again in 2021 and some luck goes Bottas' way, it's not out of the realms of possibility for him to achieve his dream. He'd need that luck, his best possible form, and a lull from #44.

The reality is that both drivers have lost the same amount of points, Hamilton not as obvious because of stewards decisions and a qualifying fiasco, we basically need Hamilton to have 100% of the bad luck like what we saw in 2016 and like you say that also needs to be combined with a dominant car.

Hamilton has to be held partly responsible for his actions in Italy and Russia though. He also could have easily backed off in the first race (as well as qualifying come to think of it) to avoid his penalty. Bottas's two zero point finishes were both totally out of his control. Hamilton has certainly lost some points this year, but most of what he has lost have been avoidable had he done things differently himself.

So in terms of bad luck, I don't think it is very close in terms of points lost.

True but it's not something you can rely on for next year, the points as they stand at the moment is a true reflection of the performance of the 2 drivers.

Also they can be called debateable penalties when other drivers are not penalised for similar incidents and at Monza it seems most opinion looks to blame the team.

When Bottas is the one that has had worse luck and a race win and second place has by far the biggest points gap between them, I don't think you can say the points gap is a representative difference at all. If luck had been equal and they were both at a worse team, the points difference would obviously be far narrower.

If for example there wasn't such an advantage for the winner and podium finishers and the points system system went like this:

20 for the winner, going down 2 at a time to 10th place getting 2 points. I know this isn't reality, but it completely changes the results for Hamilton, and not so much Bottas.

If things were scored this way, Bottas only loses 5 points. Hamilton loses 36. This would leave them 46 points apart rather than 77 (typical number!). Then just add up those two times Bottas effectively didn't finish but was on target for 2nd place, another 36 points leaving them just 10 points apart. But to be realistic in terms of them both having equal luck, I think around 20 points difference would be more representative.

My main point here is that the points system does allow Hamilton to make the points gap more large than the realistic gap between him and Bottas would be, and that is why I don't really agree with your point.


Still doesn't mean I think Bottas is close to Hamilton's level though.

If my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle.

You’ve just changed the point system and that makes Bottas artificially closer. If you add 43 points onto Bottas (what Bottas has lost) then the gap is about 34. Surely that’s what’s representative?

JN23 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:15 pm

If my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle.

You’ve just changed the point system and that makes Bottas artificially closer. If you add 43 points onto Bottas (what Bottas has lost) then the gap is about 34. Surely that’s what’s representative?

My specific point is talking about the difference between 2nd and 1st? I thought that was clear? It is true that Hamilton wins a lot more, but with the current points system that makes a bigger advantage.

I'm a bit confused as to how Bottas is missing 43 points. 18 in Britain, 18 / 15 in Eifel, so more like 33 - 36? I thought all the other races was down to his own driving rather than points missed due to luck.


Yea I've taken it a bit far, but I still think I have a point that race wins vs 2nd place wise stretch out the points making the performance gap (points wise) look bigger than drivers that are off the podium. That was my reasoning for doing this system as an example.