planetf1.com

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:17 pm**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:11 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:21 pm

F1_Ernie wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Rosberg and Bottas drove different cars, still dont think this year is as dominant as 14-16, plus Bottas is driving against a better Hamilton. Bottas would have picked up quite a few wins from reliability and better starts. Theres also 2015 when Hamilton qualified on pole 11 times out of the first 12 races against Rosberg and Rosberg put more wins on the board when the season was over early. Bottas will need what Rosberg got and that's certain things all happening in one season.
I think it is, and the only reason why one might think not is because Verstappen is so much better than Bottas that he is able to beat him regularly even despite a clear car disadvantage.

The qualifying gaps are identical or slightly bigger than they were circa 2014-2016.
Indeed. Mercedes' biggest challenger through 2014-2016 was Vettel; through 2019-2020 it's been Verstappen and Leclerc, and Verstappen and Leclerc are better drivers than Vettel.

Imagine Verstappen or Leclerc in the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm**

I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:17 pm
Imagine Verstappen or Leclerc in the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's.

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

I think Verstappen would have won the WDC. I've been consistent in saying Ferrari had the car to win in those years and failed to deliver.

As for Leclerc, it depends on how he would have taken to the role of leading the championship. If his frequent errors are the result of overdriving while trying to compensate for his car, then he would probably have won as well. If they're just an intrinsic part of his driving ability at this stage of his career, he would likely have choked and thrown away his lead similarly to how Vettel did.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:26 pm**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm

I think Verstappen would have won the WDC. I've been consistent in saying Ferrari had the car to win in those years and failed to deliver.

As for Leclerc, it depends on how he would have taken to the role of leading the championship. If his frequent errors are the result of overdriving while trying to compensate for his car, then he would probably have won as well. If they're just an intrinsic part of his driving ability at this stage of his career, he would likely have choked and thrown away his lead similarly to how Vettel did.

I do think that is a significant element. He's trying to maximise the performance from a mediocre car this year, and is on the limit to do so. I think there's little to doubt regarding his raw speed. He already has an argument for being the fastest man in F1. Perhaps it's easy to forget just how inexperienced Leclerc is, so I'm sure some of his errors are also simply down to that inexperience.

In other words, he isn't in his prime yet. He's the blazing talent which many of us assume will iron out his weaknesses and become a perennial contender for the very best thing going perhaps in the whole of motorsport, but he's still gotta do some hard yards to realise what many believe he has in him. I saw that earlier you mentioned that Leclerc is a better driver than Vettel, but I'm not sure he's put in a campaign as good as Vettel's 2017 yet or if he'll do that this year even. But I do think we've seen enough evidence of his qualifying pace, which is often outstanding, to suggest he'd have had grid position over Hamilton significantly more often.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:28 am**

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:26 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm

I think Verstappen would have won the WDC. I've been consistent in saying Ferrari had the car to win in those years and failed to deliver.

As for Leclerc, it depends on how he would have taken to the role of leading the championship. If his frequent errors are the result of overdriving while trying to compensate for his car, then he would probably have won as well. If they're just an intrinsic part of his driving ability at this stage of his career, he would likely have choked and thrown away his lead similarly to how Vettel did.
I do think that is a significant element. He's trying to maximise the performance from a mediocre car this year, and is on the limit to do so. I think there's little to doubt regarding his raw speed. He already has an argument for being the fastest man in F1. Perhaps it's easy to forget just how inexperienced Leclerc is, so I'm sure some of his errors are also simply down to that inexperience.

In other words, he isn't in his prime yet. He's the blazing talent which many of us assume will iron out his weaknesses and become a perennial contender for the very best thing going perhaps in the whole of motorsport, but he's still gotta do some hard yards to realise what many believe he has in him. I saw that earlier you mentioned that Leclerc is a better driver than Vettel, but I'm not sure he's put in a campaign as good as Vettel's 2017 yet or if he'll do that this year even. But I do think we've seen enough evidence of his qualifying pace, which is often outstanding, to suggest he'd have had grid position over Hamilton significantly more often.

to be fair he's not as prone to messing up as Verstappen was at the same level of experience and that turned out OK... They're the same age, but Max has over twice the F1 experience of Leclerc in terms of race starts.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:49 am**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:11 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:21 pm

F1_Ernie wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Rosberg and Bottas drove different cars, still dont think this year is as dominant as 14-16, plus Bottas is driving against a better Hamilton. Bottas would have picked up quite a few wins from reliability and better starts. Theres also 2015 when Hamilton qualified on pole 11 times out of the first 12 races against Rosberg and Rosberg put more wins on the board when the season was over early. Bottas will need what Rosberg got and that's certain things all happening in one season.
I think it is, and the only reason why one might think not is because Verstappen is so much better than Bottas that he is able to beat him regularly even despite a clear car disadvantage.

The qualifying gaps are identical or slightly bigger than they were circa 2014-2016.
Indeed. Mercedes' biggest challenger through 2014-2016 was Vettel; through 2019-2020 it's been Verstappen and Leclerc, and Verstappen and Leclerc are better drivers than Vettel.

Mercedes’ closest challenger in 2014 and 2016 was actually Ricciardo, and I think that Ricciardo is as good as Leclerc and only half a step behind Hamilton/Verstappen.

Speaking of which, we need to have a serious conversation about Ricciardo, and the way he has dismantled quality midfield drivers like Hulkenberg and Ocon with ease. That’s without mentioning what he did to Vettel in 2014.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:52 am**

If Ricciardo never gets even one shot in a serious WDC contender then... man... that would be a sickener.

Bottas is on his fourth chance right now and will get at least five.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:23 am**

Invade wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:52 am
Bottas is on his fourth chance right now and will get at least five.

And people wonder why we want to see someone else in the Mercedes...

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:20 am**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:23 am

Invade wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:52 am
Bottas is on his fourth chance right now and will get at least five.
And people wonder why we want to see someone else in the Mercedes...

I reckon Ricciardo would have pushed Hamilton for the title in at least one of those years.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am**

Sadly I think Ricciardo may go his career without ever getting a shot in a championship capable car. He is going to be 33yrs old before it is even possible, and even at that I still think it is a remote possibility. It might come at the very tail of his career.

Brings an interesting conversation - what drivers were better than him that went a career without ever getting a fair shot in a title capable car? I can't think of any from the 80s onwards.

Going with WDC drivers I remember as drivers. I rate Ricciardo to be as good, or better than - Piquet, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Button, Vettel and Rosberg (perhaps Hakkinen too) and that's 13x WDC there.

Bottas will get his 5th shot next year, and whilst he has the speed, he doesn't have either the killer instinct or X-factor that a champion has.

You'd back Hamilton to pull it out the bag when it matters, I'd back Bottas to be lukewarm.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm**

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am
Sadly I think Ricciardo may go his career without ever getting a shot in a championship capable car. He is going to be 33yrs old before it is even possible, and even at that I still think it is a remote possibility. It might come at the very tail of his career.

Brings an interesting conversation - what drivers were better than him that went a career without ever getting a fair shot in a title capable car? I can't think of any from the 80s onwards.

Going with WDC drivers I remember as drivers. I rate Ricciardo to be as good, or better than - Piquet, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Button, Vettel and Rosberg (perhaps Hakkinen too) and that's 13x WDC there.

Bottas will get his 5th shot next year, and whilst he has the speed, he doesn't have either the killer instinct or X-factor that a champion has.

You'd back Hamilton to pull it out the bag when it matters, I'd back Bottas to be lukewarm.

If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:56 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am
Sadly I think Ricciardo may go his career without ever getting a shot in a championship capable car. He is going to be 33yrs old before it is even possible, and even at that I still think it is a remote possibility. It might come at the very tail of his career.

Brings an interesting conversation - what drivers were better than him that went a career without ever getting a fair shot in a title capable car? I can't think of any from the 80s onwards.

Going with WDC drivers I remember as drivers. I rate Ricciardo to be as good, or better than - Piquet, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Button, Vettel and Rosberg (perhaps Hakkinen too) and that's 13x WDC there.

Bottas will get his 5th shot next year, and whilst he has the speed, he doesn't have either the killer instinct or X-factor that a champion has.

You'd back Hamilton to pull it out the bag when it matters, I'd back Bottas to be lukewarm.
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.

Because that isn't how F1 works.

I am of the opinion that Ricciardo is plenty good enough to beat Verstappen or Hamilton over a season if either of those two bring anything except their A game to the majority of races, and definitely good enough to be within striking distance should he get a bit better luck over a season than either. I feel that currently both drivers are beating their current team mates with a gear to spare (or 2 gears in Red Bulls case).

Given #1 status in a championship capable car, I feel Ricciardo would give it a good go - maybe not win - but surely nobody would argue that he is a potential WDC? I feel he is as good as, if not better, than many of the WDC I've seen in action.

As said name me drivers who are better, that have never had a seat in a championship capable car?

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:34 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.

Why do you root for a driver you've openly acknowledged is probably not as quick as Verstappen either?

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:38 pm**

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am
Sadly I think Ricciardo may go his career without ever getting a shot in a championship capable car. He is going to be 33yrs old before it is even possible, and even at that I still think it is a remote possibility. It might come at the very tail of his career.

Brings an interesting conversation - what drivers were better than him that went a career without ever getting a fair shot in a title capable car? I can't think of any from the 80s onwards.

Going with WDC drivers I remember as drivers. I rate Ricciardo to be as good, or better than - Piquet, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Button, Vettel and Rosberg (perhaps Hakkinen too) and that's 13x WDC there.

Bottas will get his 5th shot next year, and whilst he has the speed, he doesn't have either the killer instinct or X-factor that a champion has.

You'd back Hamilton to pull it out the bag when it matters, I'd back Bottas to be lukewarm.

I've been thinking similarly recently. I don't know enough about past drivers to say, but it looks like he could become the best driver never to win a championship. I know Sir Moss takes that title now, but I wouldn't be able to compare the two myself.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.

I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:00 am**

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:38 pm

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:49 am
Sadly I think Ricciardo may go his career without ever getting a shot in a championship capable car. He is going to be 33yrs old before it is even possible, and even at that I still think it is a remote possibility. It might come at the very tail of his career.

Brings an interesting conversation - what drivers were better than him that went a career without ever getting a fair shot in a title capable car? I can't think of any from the 80s onwards.

Going with WDC drivers I remember as drivers. I rate Ricciardo to be as good, or better than - Piquet, Mansell, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Button, Vettel and Rosberg (perhaps Hakkinen too) and that's 13x WDC there.

Bottas will get his 5th shot next year, and whilst he has the speed, he doesn't have either the killer instinct or X-factor that a champion has.

You'd back Hamilton to pull it out the bag when it matters, I'd back Bottas to be lukewarm.
I've been thinking similarly recently. I don't know enough about past drivers to say, but it looks like he could become the best driver never to win a championship. I know Sir Moss takes that title now, but I wouldn't be able to compare the two myself.

Not sure I'd rate him as the best never to win - but he will be up there should his career pan out as I can foresee.

However I do struggle to think of anyone better who may never get a shot at the title. (I am assuming Max will get a realistic shot at the title eventually. Leclerc and the rest are still unproven to a point, but again they've all got 11-12yrs). Unless McLaren nail it - DR will be mid 30s by the time a door might open - and with the young guns coming through, that door might shut as fast as it opens.

It is very rare, out with tragedy, for a WDC capable driver to go a career without getting at least a season in a WDC capable seat.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:12 pm**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:34 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
Why do you root for a driver you've openly acknowledged is probably not as quick as Verstappen either?

Did you not read the word CLEARLY, Verstappen maybe quicker but it's unproven and no driver in the same car has shown himself to be superior to Hamilton.

Of course you are aware of the respect I give to Verstappen, it's a shame I have to read in countless threads now the lack of respect shown to the Mercedes drivers.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm**

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.

I appreciate that but then you have better drivers that are still to win like Verstappen and perhaps Leclerc, that's the point I was making.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:39 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.
I appreciate that but then you have better drivers that are still to win like Verstappen and perhaps Leclerc, that's the point I was making.

But why are they better then. They haven't won anything yet, they may be quick but its the package that counts, the temperament, judgement when to move teams and to where, fitness, business acumen, data interpretation, engineer feedback, even political nouse. There are plenty of fast skilful football strikers who fail when it comes to crucial games.

Schumacher built a team around him developing the car to his tastes. MV seems to want the car delivered to him as evidenced by his, "I'm off if you stay with Renault stance" Is there much difference between the Renault and Honda engines currently.

Hamilton has gone the Schumacher route and Bottas is hoping to profit from that, time will tell if it works.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:09 pm**

Option or Prime wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.
I appreciate that but then you have better drivers that are still to win like Verstappen and perhaps Leclerc, that's the point I was making.
But why are they better then. They haven't won anything yet, they may be quick but its the package that counts, the temperament, judgement when to move teams and to where, fitness, business acumen, data interpretation, engineer feedback, even political nouse. There are plenty of fast skilful football strikers who fail when it comes to crucial games.

Schumacher built a team around him developing the car to his tastes. MV seems to want the car delivered to him as evidenced by his, "I'm off if you stay with Renault stance" Is there much difference between the Renault and Honda engines currently.

Hamilton has gone the Schumacher route and Bottas is hoping to profit from that, time will tell if it works.

Quite simply Verstappen showed himself to be better when they were teammates.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:11 pm**

Wouldn't it be great if Lewis took a one-year sabbatical. Then we'd see if Bottas can get the job done against Verstappen in 2021. Then again, who would partner Bottas?

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:29 pm**

Russell?

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:53 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.
I appreciate that but then you have better drivers that are still to win like Verstappen and perhaps Leclerc, that's the point I was making.

The reason why people are less desperate for Verstappen and Leclerc than Ricciardo is because age is still on their side.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm**

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:41 pm**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

Vettel has became under rated.

I don't hold him at the level of Alonso, Hamilton or Verstappen (based on how good we think MV is), but he is far better than he currently gets credit for.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:55 pm**

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:53 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:14 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:39 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 pm
If it's people's desire for the best driver to be World Champion then why would you route for a driver clearly not as good as Verstappen.
I don't have a problem with "tier 1.5" drivers sometimes winning titles, like Ricciardo, Rosberg or Button. It adds some variety to the sport.
I appreciate that but then you have better drivers that are still to win like Verstappen and perhaps Leclerc, that's the point I was making.
The reason why people are less desperate for Verstappen and Leclerc than Ricciardo is because age is still on their side.

Fair enough I guess i'm not one to want to give titles out like confetti, let's make everyone happy so to speak.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 pm**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

I guess it's just coincidence that Vettel's talent seems to come undone when paired against tier 1 drivers, in the last 7 years he will have taken 3 defeats to teammates yet in 2017 and 2018 he was carrying the car?

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.
I guess it's just coincidence that Vettel's talent seems to come undone when paired against tier 1 drivers, in the last 7 years he will have taken 3 defeats to teammates yet in 2017 and 2018 he was carrying the car?

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:09 am**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

Well, Ferrari's incompetence did not force the many, many driver mistakes by Vettel, costing them quite a number of wins and podiums. In reality, Vettel let Ferrari down big time.

Leclerc actually was treated as the number two when he joined Ferrari. Despite that he still outperfomed Vettel. He earned his current status in the team against the odds by performance - in contrast to Vettel who was always treated as the golden boy throughout his career.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:31 am**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.

There is no excusing 2018 for Vettel. Swap his and Hamilton's performance around and Vettel wins the Championship by a wide margin.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:38 pm**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.
I guess it's just coincidence that Vettel's talent seems to come undone when paired against tier 1 drivers, in the last 7 years he will have taken 3 defeats to teammates yet in 2017 and 2018 he was carrying the car?

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....

The Red Bull years clearly produced the best cars that Vettel ever drove, often dominant cars, Ferrari never gave Vettel a dominant car over a season but still cars good enough to challenge for a WDC in particular in 2018, there was reliability issues in 2017.

If you want to down grade Ricciardo's level than that by comparison only in turn impacts worse on Vettel, this also applies to Leclerc, you are criticising a driver that is beating Vettel.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm**

pokerman wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:38 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am

pokerman wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:05 pm

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:16 pm

Invade wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm
I think we need to slow down on Leclerc until he puts a campaign together which isn't littered with incidents in the Ferrari.

Verstappen could have won the title in 2018 in the Ferrari, or even in 2017 depending on how Hamilton would have dealt with the pressure of perhaps an even more fearsome challenge than the one Vettel provided. But Vettel did have a good, strong season in 2017.

The thing about Vettel is he probably gets extra "perception credit" for his dominance at Red Bull which flattered him and maybe he'll just always be and always was generally slower than what Verstappen can manage, and what Leclerc can manage in qualifying. Or maybe his 2017 campaign deserves quite major kudos. *BIG SHRUG*

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Vettel is better than we give him credit for and maybe it was Vettel's talent dragging those Ferraris to WDC contention and it was *mostly* Ferrari who made a mess of it in terms of development and strategy?

Certainly, we've seen Ferraris incompetence brought to the fore even more of late.

Furthermore, I'm still not sold on Charles until we see him in a proper WDC battle or battling for wins (I think he'll fold big time personally against Verstappen 9/10 times) or when Ferrari's comforting political arm is no longer around him and he becomes what Vettel is now. Then we'll see how mentally resilient he is. Vettel showed he isn't exactly brilliant in that department either.
I guess it's just coincidence that Vettel's talent seems to come undone when paired against tier 1 drivers, in the last 7 years he will have taken 3 defeats to teammates yet in 2017 and 2018 he was carrying the car?

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....
The Red Bull years clearly produced the best cars that Vettel ever drove, often dominant cars, Ferrari never gave Vettel a dominant car over a season but still cars good enough to challenge for a WDC in particular in 2018, there was reliability issues in 2017.

If you want to down grade Ricciardo's level than that by comparison only in turn impacts worse on Vettel, this also applies to Leclerc, you are criticising a driver that is beating Vettel.

Triangle (or square, in this case) do not always work. The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:19 am**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm
Triangle (or square, in this case) do not always work. The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.

You're right; that's why Stirling Moss has faded into anonymity, and we never waste any time talking about whether Senna was better than Prost. It really is all about the record.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:48 am**

This thread is going well..

Bottas gets married and divorced on page 6 over 3 years and now well over 20 of the last 30 recent posts or so have been totally unrelated to anything about him.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:56 am**

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:48 am
This thread is going well..

Bottas gets married and divorced on page 6 over 3 years and now well over 20 of the last 30 recent posts or so have been totally unrelated to anything about him.

That says about as much about Bottas as any of us could in a thousand posts.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:27 am**

LOL - good one mikey.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:04 am**

Exediron wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:19 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:44 pm
Triangle (or square, in this case) do not always work. The guy with the winning record ultimately will get all the accolades.
You're right; that's why Stirling Moss has faded into anonymity, and we never waste any time talking about whether Senna was better than Prost. It really is all about the record.

And have you reached a conclusion yet.....?

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:28 am**

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....

I hardly think that's all we've seen from Charles. He hasn't remotely disgraced himself vs Vettel regarding race pace, and I think we can agree that Vettel typically has quite strong race pace. His race pace isn't yet super consistent but he's shown high level performances in both qualifying and the race with regularity. I assume he'd be closer in the races generally to Hamilton than Bottas is. I think Bottas will do very well in Sochi, tho.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:55 am**

Invade wrote: ↑
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:28 am

Schermerhorn wrote: ↑
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:00 am

What was it then? Vettel winning those races or Ferrari/Red Bull being so dominant?

If Ricciardo is Tier 1, why are we overlooking his performances against Kvyat in 2015? He didnt exactly look AAA against a guy who has been mentally buried since 2016.....

All we have seen from Charles so far is good qualifying speed and him going against Max wheel to wheel at Silverstone 2019 and people hail him as the new F1 Messiah? I guess Lewis' dominance has got people looking anywhere for the next great hope and hyping any great F1 act they do.

For me personally, I am yet to be convinced by Charlie. Maybe he will prove to be an ATG one day....
I hardly think that's all we've seen from Charles. He hasn't remotely disgraced himself vs Vettel regarding race pace, and I think we can agree that Vettel typically has quite strong race pace. His race pace isn't yet super consistent but he's shown high level performances in both qualifying and the race with regularity. I assume he'd be closer in the races generally to Hamilton than Bottas is. I think Bottas will do very well in Sochi, tho.

For Bottas' sake, he better do well. Otherwise he'll be mentally tortured for the rest of his career that he was never the apex F1 driver he set out to be.

Posted: **Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:30 pm**

Stick a fork in him

He's done

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