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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:03 am 
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These Vettel threads are getting a little silly. He drove great (did everything he needed to do barring a couple amateur front-wing incidents), optimized his strategy and had luck (didn't have to pass Massa).

Given that any team can change their setup after qualifying in exchange for starting from pit lane, how was Vettel lucky that he had a race setup? If that's a good strategy, surely others would adopt it periodically.

How is a driver lucky by pitting during the last lap of a safety car period only to come out last? Every driver/team has that option during any safety car period.

Just an observation, but Ferrari certainly should have noticed that Vettel would have needed to pit during the first safety car because of his wing meaning an alternate strategy that's hard to predict. They could have sent Massa to the pits to be a place or two in front of Vettel and have Massa hold Vettel up as long as possible. That way Vettel would have worn his tires down chasing Massa letting the front-runners get further away while they both move up the field slowly. At that time Hamilton was still in the race so maybe Ferrari underestimated Vettel and were focusing more on the WCC.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:39 am 
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Gumption wrote:
These Vettel threads are getting a little silly. He drove great (did everything he needed to do barring a couple amateur front-wing incidents), optimized his strategy and had luck (didn't have to pass Massa).

Given that any team can change their setup after qualifying in exchange for starting from pit lane, how was Vettel lucky that he had a race setup? If that's a good strategy, surely others would adopt it periodically.

How is a driver lucky by pitting during the last lap of a safety car period only to come out last? Every driver/team has that option during any safety car period.

Just an observation, but Ferrari certainly should have noticed that Vettel would have needed to pit during the first safety car because of his wing meaning an alternate strategy that's hard to predict. They could have sent Massa to the pits to be a place or two in front of Vettel and have Massa hold Vettel up as long as possible. That way Vettel would have worn his tires down chasing Massa letting the front-runners get further away while they both move up the field slowly. At that time Hamilton was still in the race so maybe Ferrari underestimated Vettel and were focusing more on the WCC.
You are right.

Unfortunately I think motor racing is like life itself; when people are very successful at what they are doing you will always get the little man trying to take a dig into their armour to try and find a way to justify why they are doing so well.

I think that the Vettel/Red Bull story is an absolute example of this. They are doing everything that they should be doing correctly and people find it so difficult to comprehend their success that they have to search out any minor kink in the armour or they try and explain it by using words like "lucky" instead of just accepting that they are just doing a better job than others and in order for others to achieve the same level of success they should just work harder and smarter.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:15 am 
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Of course he was lucky. You said it yourself. He drove his own frontwing off, is last, and then still ends up on the podium? That requires some luck. The 2nd safetety car helped him massively, Grosjean helped him massively for making a train in 5th place for a looong time and he benefitted greatly from the crashfest we witnessed. He still drove an amazing race no doubt, but that podium required luck. No reason to deny his luck or his great drive.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:19 am 
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HOERSS wrote:
Of course he was lucky. You said it yourself. He drove his own frontwing off, is last, and then still ends up on the podium? That requires some luck. The 2nd safetety car helped him massively, Grosjean helped him massively for making a train in 5th place for a looong time and he benefitted greatly from the crashfest we witnessed. He still drove an amazing race no doubt, but that podium required luck. No reason to deny his luck or his great drive.


I agree. Luck plays a part in everything (while I believe part of luck is your own work, some of it is just dumb luck). He was lucky, yes, but he went up by 21 or so places, while his team mate went backwards then crashed out. Even with Seb's **** ups, his speed throughout the race was very, very fast and we shouldn't belittle him because it took some luck to get him there.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:29 am 
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The problem/sad thing is, when most people start talking about luck, they use that as a stick to discredit his drive. "Nice drive, great luck." That's just jealousy/envy, as we've seen a little too often towards Vettel.

What I'm wondering is, when is the last time we saw a driver come through the field like that without any incident?
Button certainly didn't keep a clean car either.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:33 am 
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HOERSS wrote:
The 2nd safetety car helped him massively


How do you define "massively"? The second SC got him one extra place, which I wouldn't use the term "massive help" for. Also, he could have closed the gap to Button without that SC too - but that's ofcourse speculation, so I won't go on about that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:00 am 
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mds wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
The 2nd safetety car helped him massively


How do you define "massively"? The second SC got him one extra place, which I wouldn't use the term "massive help" for. Also, he could have closed the gap to Button without that SC too - but that's ofcourse speculation, so I won't go on about that.


He was gifted 12 sec or so. Mabey not massively, but it hink you understood what i meant.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:08 am 
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I thought you were somehow under the impression that he made up more places thanks to that second SC - I misjudged that. Yes, if you see it with regards to Button, obviously it benefitted him in a great way. In the grand race scheme, less so. At that point it wasn't "make or break" anymore, as he was pretty comfortable in fourth which was already a decent points haul.

Actually, put another way: between the two SC's he went from dead last to a comfortable fourth (P21 to P4 in 18(?) laps). I really consider it an impressive drive.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:42 am 
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As has been pointed out on another - some would say identical - thread, the SC bunched up the field in such a way that any time lost in pit stops was absolutely negligible. He gained 38 seconds on the leader from them alone. Additionally, the two stop strategy was forced upon him by the fact that his damaged front wing made him come in earlier than he would otherwise have done. This in combination with the safety cars meant that he was able to utilise the full benefit of fresher tyres against a bunched up field of drivers with relatively older tyres, without suffering any time penalty for replacing those tyres. Dream situation for any driver.

It would be churlish not to acknowledge that he drove extremely well to take advantage of the breaks given to him; it would be equally silly to claim that it was all down to superior driving and luck played no part at all. But as others have said, that's F1.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Whitmarsh after Can 2011:"I think it was one of the best wins in the history of F1, let alone his"
Button: "For me it was a fantastic race. Even if I hadn't won I would have enjoyed this race immensely, but it's a win, definitely my best"

Whitmarsh Yesterday: "I think he was pretty fortunate with sc's and the general demolition derby that was going on"
Button:"Vettel got lucky with the 2nd SC"

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
... with the safety cars meant that he was able to utilise the full benefit of fresher tyres against a bunched up field of drivers with relatively older tyres, without suffering any time penalty for replacing those tyres. Dream situation for any driver.


If what you have stated is a "dream situation for any driver", then why didn't any other driver do it? As stated in the OP, everybody had that option. AND... since Vettel came in on the last SC lap, any front runner (on soft tires) could have come in, put on fresh hard tires, been in front of Vettel and could have gone much longer than him. If that was a "dream situation", it has to go down to strategy since everyone had the option and only Red Bull/Vettel took it.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Zoue wrote:
... with the safety cars meant that he was able to utilise the full benefit of fresher tyres against a bunched up field of drivers with relatively older tyres, without suffering any time penalty for replacing those tyres. Dream situation for any driver.


If what you have stated is a "dream situation for any driver", then why didn't any other driver do it? As stated in the OP, everybody had that option. AND... since Vettel came in on the last SC lap, any front runner (on soft tires) could have come in, put on fresh hard tires, been in front of Vettel and could have gone much longer than him. If that was a "dream situation", it has to go down to strategy since everyone had the option and only Red Bull/Vettel took it.

are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?

I've already said that IMO Vettel drove extremely well. But if you can't even acknowledge that things fell into place for him that day then you're in denial I'm afraid.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?


Since you're specifically saying "after", you're talking about the second SC (which, I think, doesn't make a lot of sense if you're talking about the SC "bunching up drivers for easy overtaking").
Gumption's comment still stands for the first SC: any one driver could have used it to get rid of the options and run on the primes for the remainder of the race.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Gumption wrote:
Zoue wrote:
... with the safety cars meant that he was able to utilise the full benefit of fresher tyres against a bunched up field of drivers with relatively older tyres, without suffering any time penalty for replacing those tyres. Dream situation for any driver.


If what you have stated is a "dream situation for any driver", then why didn't any other driver do it? As stated in the OP, everybody had that option. AND... since Vettel came in on the last SC lap, any front runner (on soft tires) could have come in, put on fresh hard tires, been in front of Vettel and could have gone much longer than him. If that was a "dream situation", it has to go down to strategy since everyone had the option and only Red Bull/Vettel took it.

are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?

I've already said that IMO Vettel drove extremely well. But if you can't even acknowledge that things fell into place for him that day then you're in denial I'm afraid.


I apologize; I thought you were referring to the first safety car period. I did acknowledge that the timing of the second safety car was lucky for him because he didn't have to spend a dozen laps catching Button. If you read my OP, I made that clear by stating that he did have luck in addition to driving a great race.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:04 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?


Since you're specifically saying "after", you're talking about the second SC (which, I think, doesn't make a lot of sense if you're talking about the SC "bunching up drivers for easy overtaking").
Gumption's comment still stands for the first SC: any one driver could have used it to get rid of the options and run on the primes for the remainder of the race.

I'm struggling to understand some people. From the Formula1.com website:

Quote:
Vettel went from being 29.8s down on Raikkonen to just 3.3s thanks to the second safety car deployment

How can anyone not think that's beneficial? People were all excited about Alonso shaving a couple of tenths a lap off Kimi's lead in the closing laps, yet 26.6 seconds wiped out all at once is just "meh"?

From the same site:

Quote:
The first safety car helped Vettel to recover from his pit-lane start and a brush with Williams' Bruno Senna which damaged his front wing.


All the teams were talking about a single stop being by far the quickest solution in Abu Dhabi. Vettel was forced into making a very early stop because of his wing damage, which effectively changed his strategy to a two-stopper. The two safety cars meant that he lost almost no time making the stops, while the fresher rubber also helped him with his overtakes. He still had to go out there and drive his socks off, but to pretend that the safety cars didn't make it easier for him is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:08 pm 
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So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?


Since you're specifically saying "after", you're talking about the second SC (which, I think, doesn't make a lot of sense if you're talking about the SC "bunching up drivers for easy overtaking").
Gumption's comment still stands for the first SC: any one driver could have used it to get rid of the options and run on the primes for the remainder of the race.

I'm struggling to understand some people. From the Formula1.com website:

Quote:
Vettel went from being 29.8s down on Raikkonen to just 3.3s thanks to the second safety car deployment

How can anyone not think that's beneficial? People were all excited about Alonso shaving a couple of tenths a lap off Kimi's lead in the closing laps, yet 26.6 seconds wiped out all at once is just "meh"?

From the same site:

Quote:
The first safety car helped Vettel to recover from his pit-lane start and a brush with Williams' Bruno Senna which damaged his front wing.


All the teams were talking about a single stop being by far the quickest solution in Abu Dhabi. Vettel was forced into making a very early stop because of his wing damage, which effectively changed his strategy to a two-stopper. The two safety cars meant that he lost almost no time making the stops, while the fresher rubber also helped him with his overtakes. He still had to go out there and drive his socks off, but to pretend that the safety cars didn't make it easier for him is ridiculous.

Would Vettel have almost crashed into a weaving Riciardo if not for the safety car? No.
Would Vettel have had to change his front wing if not for the moment with Riciardo? No.
So did the first safety car deployment help Vettel? No!

And in all, it helped him absolutely nothing. By the time he was back to p12, the gap to the lead was back to 24 seconds (he won 0.4 seconds, woohoo), but he lost his tire strategy and 5 laps behind backmarkers. How is that beneficial?

The safety car helped him to minimize damage, but that damage would not have been done if not for the safety car in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Gumption wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Gumption wrote:
Zoue wrote:
... with the safety cars meant that he was able to utilise the full benefit of fresher tyres against a bunched up field of drivers with relatively older tyres, without suffering any time penalty for replacing those tyres. Dream situation for any driver.


If what you have stated is a "dream situation for any driver", then why didn't any other driver do it? As stated in the OP, everybody had that option. AND... since Vettel came in on the last SC lap, any front runner (on soft tires) could have come in, put on fresh hard tires, been in front of Vettel and could have gone much longer than him. If that was a "dream situation", it has to go down to strategy since everyone had the option and only Red Bull/Vettel took it.

are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?

I've already said that IMO Vettel drove extremely well. But if you can't even acknowledge that things fell into place for him that day then you're in denial I'm afraid.


I apologize; I thought you were referring to the first safety car period. I did acknowledge that the timing of the second safety car was lucky for him because he didn't have to spend a dozen laps catching Button. If you read my OP, I made that clear by stating that he did have luck in addition to driving a great race.

fair enough.

The "luck" element for the first SC was that Vettel only went in because of his wing damage - without it it's likely he wouldn't have felt the need to bother. At that stage it compromised his race strategy a little bit as it meant that he would have to stop again, although the fact that he lost little time making the stop meant that he didn't really lose much at all anyway (in fact he gained as the field closed up). However, the second safety car really put the icing on the cake for him. It meant that he spent a large part of the race on fresher rubber than others around him, helping him with traction and overtaking, while not having to worry about the traditional trade-off which is time spent in the pits. That's what was meant by dream situation


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
However, the second safety car really put the icing on the cake for him.


If by "icing on the cake" you mean "got him one extra place", then we agree.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:19 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:27 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?


Since you're specifically saying "after", you're talking about the second SC (which, I think, doesn't make a lot of sense if you're talking about the SC "bunching up drivers for easy overtaking").
Gumption's comment still stands for the first SC: any one driver could have used it to get rid of the options and run on the primes for the remainder of the race.

I'm struggling to understand some people. From the Formula1.com website:

Quote:
Vettel went from being 29.8s down on Raikkonen to just 3.3s thanks to the second safety car deployment

How can anyone not think that's beneficial? People were all excited about Alonso shaving a couple of tenths a lap off Kimi's lead in the closing laps, yet 26.6 seconds wiped out all at once is just "meh"?

From the same site:

Quote:
The first safety car helped Vettel to recover from his pit-lane start and a brush with Williams' Bruno Senna which damaged his front wing.


All the teams were talking about a single stop being by far the quickest solution in Abu Dhabi. Vettel was forced into making a very early stop because of his wing damage, which effectively changed his strategy to a two-stopper. The two safety cars meant that he lost almost no time making the stops, while the fresher rubber also helped him with his overtakes. He still had to go out there and drive his socks off, but to pretend that the safety cars didn't make it easier for him is ridiculous.

Would Vettel have almost crashed into a weaving Riciardo if not for the safety car? No.
Would Vettel have had to change his front wing if not for the moment with Riciardo? No.
So did the first safety car deployment help Vettel? No!

And in all, it helped him absolutely nothing. By the time he was back to p12, the gap to the lead was back to 24 seconds (he won 0.4 seconds, woohoo), but he lost his tire strategy and 5 laps behind backmarkers. How is that beneficial?

The safety car helped him to minimize damage, but that damage would not have been done if not for the safety car in the first place.

Wow. It's almost funny.

Vettel had already damaged his front wing in the clash with Senna. The second incident made it worse, which meant he had to come in, but without it it's possible he would not have had the same pace (OR tyres) to charge through the field the way he did. It also meant he could go longer relative to the others before having to pit again, which helped him gain places too. So yes, the first SC was beneficial for him. Do you seriously think that having fresh tyres (and a fixed wing!) would not have helped him overtake other cars?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:28 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


But gaining 26 seconds is.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:28 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.

no, it's not. See post above and try and consider the whole situation instead of just the stats


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


But gaining 26 seconds is.


"seconds" don't make points. Only places do. The second SC got him one place extra. Or made it easier to get that place, seeing as how he might have gotten Button without it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:39 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


Not one has labelled his drive as plain luck. Everyone actually acknowledges a very great drive from him. But also that events in the race went greatly in his favour. Most of them small, but they add up. The crashfest more than anything helped him get past a lot of the quicker cars. You don't have to treat his luck in the race as something that diminishes his great achievement. Denying his luck is just putting yourself in a worse situation.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


But gaining 26 seconds is.

What good is gaining 26 seconds (14,42 to Button, but ok) if it doesn't/hardly gains you any points? You're just grasping at things that make it seem like luck, while it was actually utterly insignificact.


Last edited by JacksparrowNinja on Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:40 pm 
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You could say strategy only looks good if you have the luck for it to work out.

You have to be in the right place to be hit by lightning or pass a car.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you serious? Because nobody had a crystal ball, that's why. The SC came out after Seb had made his stop, bunching up the field for him and effectively negating the time spent in the pits. He couldn't have known that was going to happen. Please don't try to argue that it was some amazing strategical decision. That helped him enormously - how can anyone suggest otherwise?


Since you're specifically saying "after", you're talking about the second SC (which, I think, doesn't make a lot of sense if you're talking about the SC "bunching up drivers for easy overtaking").
Gumption's comment still stands for the first SC: any one driver could have used it to get rid of the options and run on the primes for the remainder of the race.

I'm struggling to understand some people. From the Formula1.com website:

Quote:
Vettel went from being 29.8s down on Raikkonen to just 3.3s thanks to the second safety car deployment

How can anyone not think that's beneficial? People were all excited about Alonso shaving a couple of tenths a lap off Kimi's lead in the closing laps, yet 26.6 seconds wiped out all at once is just "meh"?

From the same site:

Quote:
The first safety car helped Vettel to recover from his pit-lane start and a brush with Williams' Bruno Senna which damaged his front wing.


All the teams were talking about a single stop being by far the quickest solution in Abu Dhabi. Vettel was forced into making a very early stop because of his wing damage, which effectively changed his strategy to a two-stopper. The two safety cars meant that he lost almost no time making the stops, while the fresher rubber also helped him with his overtakes. He still had to go out there and drive his socks off, but to pretend that the safety cars didn't make it easier for him is ridiculous.

Would Vettel have almost crashed into a weaving Riciardo if not for the safety car? No.
Would Vettel have had to change his front wing if not for the moment with Riciardo? No.
So did the first safety car deployment help Vettel? No!

And in all, it helped him absolutely nothing. By the time he was back to p12, the gap to the lead was back to 24 seconds (he won 0.4 seconds, woohoo), but he lost his tire strategy and 5 laps behind backmarkers. How is that beneficial?

The safety car helped him to minimize damage, but that damage would not have been done if not for the safety car in the first place.

Wow. It's almost funny.

Vettel had already damaged his front wing in the clash with Senna. The second incident made it worse, which meant he had to come in, but without it it's possible he would not have had the same pace (OR tyres) to charge through the field the way he did. It also meant he could go longer relative to the others before having to pit again, which helped him gain places too. So yes, the first SC was beneficial for him. Do you seriously think that having fresh tyres (and a fixed wing!) would not have helped him overtake other cars?

Vettel had damaged his front wing with Senna, but
  1. they said over the radio that the wing was not badly damaged.
  2. his lap times were the with and without the wing damage.

Those are two facts indicating that the initial damage was insignificant.
On his 'used' primes he was faster than anyone but Lewis and Kimi (softs didn't change that), so the 'benefit' of having to fight back and losing 5 laps is completely cancelled out by the fact he could have used those 5 laps to work his way further up the field and overtake the whole bunch when they pitted, while he had another 15 fast laps in his tires.

If a two-stop strategy was beneficial, they would have gone for that. It wasn't.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:43 pm 
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HOERSS wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


Not one has labelled his drive as plain luck. Everyone actually acknowledges a very great drive from him. But also that events in the race went greatly in his favour. Most of them small, but they add up. The crashfest more than anything helped him get past a lot of the quicker cars. You don't have to treat his luck in the race as something that diminishes his great achievement. Denying his luck is just putting yourself in a worse situation.

What crashfest? Hamilton? Massa?
Aside from 3 (de la Rosa, Hülkenberg and Rosberg; all cars whose team mates he breezed by) cars at the start, all the crashes happened BEHIND him. Just more stuff made up.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:46 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


Not one has labelled his drive as plain luck. Everyone actually acknowledges a very great drive from him. But also that events in the race went greatly in his favour. Most of them small, but they add up. The crashfest more than anything helped him get past a lot of the quicker cars. You don't have to treat his luck in the race as something that diminishes his great achievement. Denying his luck is just putting yourself in a worse situation.

What crashfest? Hamilton? Massa?
Aside from 3 (de la Rosa, Hülkenberg and Rosberg; all cars whose team mates he breezed by) cars at the start, all the crashes happened BEHIND him. Just more stuff made up.


I'm not going into an argument about how the race unfolded. We all saw it, so it should be clear. It also seems more and more clear that there's no point arguing with you.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:46 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
So if he had driven 21st to 4th, it would have been a great drive.
But now that he had the safety car help him get to 3rd, it's a lucky drive...
The things people come up with.

I agree. You come up with some strange things.

I already said several times that I thought Vettel drove really well ("drove his socks off" was I believe one phrase I used). But I'm not so blinkered that I can't see he was somewhat fortunate the way things around him panned out.


I'm sorry, but half the fortune you state is made up.
To say that he benefited from the first SC while without the the first SC he wouldn't have had to stop to begin with, is just made up.
And people saying he 'massively benefited' from the second safety car, is just made up. Gaining one position is not a massive benefit.


But gaining 26 seconds is.

What good is gaining 26 seconds (14,42 to Button, but ok) if it doesn't/hardly gains you any points? You're just grasping at things that make it seem like luck, while it was actually utterly insignificact.


Gaining that much time in a race is massive. Regardless of points. End of.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:50 pm 
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HOERSS wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
Not one has labelled his drive as plain luck. Everyone actually acknowledges a very great drive from him. But also that events in the race went greatly in his favour. Most of them small, but they add up. The crashfest more than anything helped him get past a lot of the quicker cars. You don't have to treat his luck in the race as something that diminishes his great achievement. Denying his luck is just putting yourself in a worse situation.

What crashfest? Hamilton? Massa?
Aside from 3 (de la Rosa, Hülkenberg and Rosberg; all cars whose team mates he breezed by) cars at the start, all the crashes happened BEHIND him. Just more stuff made up.


I'm not going into an argument about how the race unfolded. We all saw it, so it should be clear. It also seems more and more clear that there's no point arguing with you.

You're not pointing it out because you know you're plainly lying and you're too scared to admit you're wrong.
FACT IS that the 'crashfest' happened behind him.
This is exactly the problem in this whole discussion; people make up what happened in their mind and are wilfully blind when the facts tell them otherwise.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Nobody talk about Alonso benefiting from safety car. He was so far from Kimi and at the end almost had the pop. to overtake him. Or Alonso s luck when Vettel retired from Valencia with a healthy . lead.
Alonso has a fast car and they play it down all the time. Alonso overdrives and gives 120%. That s taking the good job away from the people who build the car at the factory. Ferrari (Alonso, Montzemelo and Domenicalli) are real idiots


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Mr-E wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Mr-E wrote:
But gaining 26 seconds is.

What good is gaining 26 seconds (14,42 to Button, but ok) if it doesn't/hardly gains you any points? You're just grasping at things that make it seem like luck, while it was actually utterly insignificact.

Gaining that much time in a race is massive. Regardless of points. End of.


So the final standings will read;
World Champion 2012: Sebastian Vettel, with 260 seconds gained in 2012.
Runner-up: Fernando Alonso, with 295 points in 2012.

Right...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:05 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
Not one has labelled his drive as plain luck. Everyone actually acknowledges a very great drive from him. But also that events in the race went greatly in his favour. Most of them small, but they add up. The crashfest more than anything helped him get past a lot of the quicker cars. You don't have to treat his luck in the race as something that diminishes his great achievement. Denying his luck is just putting yourself in a worse situation.

What crashfest? Hamilton? Massa?
Aside from 3 (de la Rosa, Hülkenberg and Rosberg; all cars whose team mates he breezed by) cars at the start, all the crashes happened BEHIND him. Just more stuff made up.


I'm not going into an argument about how the race unfolded. We all saw it, so it should be clear. It also seems more and more clear that there's no point arguing with you.

You're not pointing it out because you know you're plainly lying and you're too scared to admit you're wrong.
FACT IS that the 'crashfest' happened behind him.
This is exactly the problem in this whole discussion; people make up what happened in their mind and are wilfully blind when the facts tell them otherwise.

Wow, way to get personal Jack x( :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:08 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
You're not pointing it out because you know you're plainly lying and you're too scared to admit you're wrong.
FACT IS that the 'crashfest' happened behind him.
This is exactly the problem in this whole discussion; people make up what happened in their mind and are wilfully blind when the facts tell them otherwise.


You're misunderstanding me. Crashfest includes crashes and the subsequent safety cars. Which he benefitted from. I don't see your point in denying he had a helping hand in the race.

Quote:
This is exactly the problem in this whole discussion; people make up what happened in their mind and are wilfully blind when the facts tell them otherwise.

Be carefull saying that. All your posts reeks of a fanboy who is unable to be even slightly objective about your driver and you're treating opposing views like attacks on Vettel. Look at yourself mate and cut the bullshit if you want to debate properly


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:13 pm 
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JacksparrowNinja wrote:
Zoue wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
JacksparrowNinja wrote:
What crashfest? Hamilton? Massa?
Aside from 3 (de la Rosa, Hülkenberg and Rosberg; all cars whose team mates he breezed by) cars at the start, all the crashes happened BEHIND him. Just more stuff made up.


I'm not going into an argument about how the race unfolded. We all saw it, so it should be clear. It also seems more and more clear that there's no point arguing with you.

You're not pointing it out because you know you're plainly lying and you're too scared to admit you're wrong.
FACT IS that the 'crashfest' happened behind him.
This is exactly the problem in this whole discussion; people make up what happened in their mind and are wilfully blind when the facts tell them otherwise.

Wow, way to get personal Jack x( :thumbdown:

I'm sorry, but the only one who deserves a thumbs down is you for lying about simple facts and not owning up to them.

FYI you've been reported. You have no basis to call me a liar. Clearly it's not worth debating with someone like you


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:19 pm 
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I have a feeling you are all wasting your time trying to debate this with some pretty hardcore Vettel fans, I'm starting to understand why I get tarnished with the same brush as some pretty unreasonable Hamilton fans.

I could understand the virocity of the defense if you were all saying Vettel's drive was fairy cakes based totally on luck but most of the people who say it had an amount of fortune also congratulate him on a top drive.

Its a shame because I think some people don't like Hamilton because some fans can so nothing but a golden shining light, maybe the same can be said for Vettel.

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