Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

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kingelessar
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Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season & quickly became a big fan of F1 & raikkonen!!!Even at that point when Fernando Alonso was struggling with poor Renault i always felt that this is a very intelligent & fast guy...so even if he was not that successful at that time i became his huge admirer.
But comes in Schumacher in 2010 & every body starts praising him as if he is some God.For me or any New Fan he was just a new comer.And as soon as season starts i saw nothing spectacular about him..on the contrary he was involved in immature crashes with Petrov & kobayashi.2 Year hence he has done nothing praiseworthy apart from 1 podium.thats bit low for a guy who has 91 victories.if we compare him with Raikkonen or Alonso both have shown more speed & consistency than this so called F1 God.
Also to add he is known to reach to any dangerous levels just to win & we can have many examples of it!!!
So is he just able to perform only when car is perfect??Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????
I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!
I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!



p.s=mods,honestly this is not schumacher bashing thread...I respect him but i just don't like him!!!
Last edited by kingelessar on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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WelshWayne1978
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by WelshWayne1978 »

You are being a bit silly here

Schumacher has won in cars that are nowhere near perfect, Spain 96 is one example!
But his return was a mistake, his performance levels had dropped near the end of his first stint in F1 and to try to recapture the past was brave but has proved foolish

I am not a Schumacher fan but you can't knock his first career apart from the first championship he won by smashing into his rival when he'd alread damaged his car and in 97 when he tried it again.
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Usman
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Usman »

Well i guess in F1 car matters a lot... There are very few instances of a driver in a bad car doing better than others over a whole season (can happen in a single race though)... At the most what happens is that there is a slight difference in times of two cars and the guy with slightly slower car is still ahead.... (Alonso defied this rule throughout this season though,..... which is amazing)
So yes, micheal's wins can surely be attributed to a good car... He is definitely a great driver but his car was also very competitive when he won. Now he is in a car which is not as competitive so he is struggling... Sadly, what hurts the most is that even his team mate has better points. and as a fan who started watching F1 in late 2006, i would agree to the OP here :(
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MistaVega23
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by MistaVega23 »

I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season

Says it all really.

Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????

If you had done your research you'd find that Ferrari were dominant because of him.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Adaemus »

kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.
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kingelessar
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by tootsie323 »

It's obvious that Michael's second career has not been nearly as successful as his first! A lot of the instinct is still there but he has neither car nor youth on his side. The spirit is willing etc...

Has you witnessed his entire career you would see the reasons behind the idolising. Even despite his relative lack of success lately he is still a huge crowd-puller.

Have a read through his history and seek out a few of the highlights from his earlier days. I was never his biggest fan but I do appreciate what an exceptional talent was on show and it's still good to see glimoses of it now.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

well he won his first F1 title in 1994 in a Benetton so it can't all be down to the Ferrari.

Undoubtedly the car played a part - no-one's ever going to win a WDC in the equivalent of today's HRT, but Schumacher made an impact on the sport pretty much as soon as he arrived. Even looking at the season before his first WDC, he never finished off the podium, and he finished third in his first full season in F1 in a team that hadn't really set the world alight before then.

As another poster has said, he contributed massively to Ferrari's success: they hadn't won a driver's title since 1979 and the last Ferrari constructor's title before MSC arrived was in 1983. Like him or loathe him, there's no denying his talent.

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MistaVega23
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by MistaVega23 »

kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


But we're not talking about Senna. We're talking about Schumacher. And he was racing in F1 for 16 years before you even started watching the sport. Hence the reactions.

Next time have a think before posting.
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Toby.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Toby. »

Of course he is. He's one of the greatest of all time. Even the best of drivers struggle in poor machinery. Ferrari and Bennetton were a force with Michael, but mainly because of Michael. Even questioning whether or not he was a great driver is laughable.
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kingelessar
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

MistaVega23 wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


But we're not talking about Senna. We're talking about Schumacher. And he was racing in F1 for 16 years before you even started watching the sport. Hence the reactions.

Next time have a think before posting.


Next time have a think before answering a thread with mere 3 words!!!
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

MistaVega23 wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


But we're not talking about Senna. We're talking about Schumacher. And he was racing in F1 for 16 years before you even started watching the sport. Hence the reactions.

Next time have a think before posting.

That's a bit harsh. The OP admitted he only started watching the sport comparatively recently and was asking for input from others in order to form an opinion on earlier times. There's no reason to put him down for that.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Amon »

MistaVega23 wrote:
I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season

Says it all really.

Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????

If you had done your research you'd find that Ferrari were dominant because of him.


I think you are very harsh. I started watching late eighties and saw a lot of great drivers never race but I reckon they were legends. However I can't judge how good they were by myself. I have to do it with articles and biographies or racing footage.

And it's not MS alone who made that team dominant. He got guys working with him at Bennetton in the team (Brawn, Byrne). He had a good relationship with the staff and also with Bridgestone. He didn't have to be concerned by his teammates either.

Yeah he was a great driver but IMHO not a class above Senna or Prost as statistics suggest.

So maybe some of you should back up with some good arguments instead of picking on the OP because he is a relative newcomer to the show.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Adaemus »

kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


No, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I can't see how you'd reach that conclusion if you'd gone back and watched the older races.

I wasn't around when Jim Clark was racing, but I wouldn't make a topic questioning how great he was, because you do the research first and see why everyone acknowledges how good a driver is/was.

Go back and watch him as a 'youngster' racing for Benetton etc, watch some of his onboard qualifying laps in the early 00s for Ferrari. I despised the man for most of his former career but you couldn't deny his ability.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

Toby. wrote:Of course he is. He's one of the greatest of all time. Even the best of drivers struggle in poor machinery. Ferrari and Bennetton were a force with Michael, but mainly because of Michael. Even questioning whether or not he was a great driver is laughable.


I completely agree...my only point is if he made Ferrari & benneton a strong force why can;t he make Mercedes the same.In fact Mercedes has both Man & Money power.Even then if you get beaten by your relatively younger team mate then that is surely questionable!!
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

kingelessar wrote:
Toby. wrote:Of course he is. He's one of the greatest of all time. Even the best of drivers struggle in poor machinery. Ferrari and Bennetton were a force with Michael, but mainly because of Michael. Even questioning whether or not he was a great driver is laughable.


I completely agree...my only point is if he made Ferrari & benneton a strong force why can;t he make Mercedes the same.In fact Mercedes has both Man & Money power.Even then if you get beaten by your relatively younger team mate then that is surely questionable!!

They are two different era's, I'm afraid. Part of Michael's strength lay in his work ethic regarding testing, something which simply isn't allowed today as it is enormously expensive. Driver input is far, far more restricted now than since his comeback and unless the rules are changed, something I can't see happening because of costs, that kind of consistent success is less likely to happen again

edit: to emphasise the point, Ferrari had their own test track and it was used throughout the season almost on a daily basis. Now teams bring parts to a race unsure as to whether they will work or not. In Michael's first career they would rarely bring a part unless it had already been comprehensively tested around the track
Last edited by Zoue on Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Toby. »

Check out James Allen's "Michael Schumacher: The Edge of Greatness". It's supposed to be the best Schumacher biography out there. It'll probably educate you a bit as to who Schumacher was before 2010.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

Schumacher was one of the best drivers in the history of F1. Not the fastest, but among the fastest. Not the best at setting a car up, but among the best at setting the car up.

It is too easy to say, as MistaVega23 does, that Ferrari were dominant because of him. They were dominant because of Todt, Brawn, a very competent design staff, and Schumacher. And to a certain extent, the FIA. What should also not be forgotten is what you can see on Schumacher's Ferraris, just behind the air intake. There is a very good reason why Marlboro and Ferrari are still thought of together - because you are meant to.

The problem a new race fan has, is that it is so difficult to read through the mythmaking. Race reports seldom do the races justice. But it is wrong to dismiss Schumacher's career simply on the basis of what you see these days; even though he reminds us from time to time about how fast, and stupid, he used to be.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by MistaVega23 »

Amon wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season

Says it all really.

Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????

If you had done your research you'd find that Ferrari were dominant because of him.


I think you are very harsh. I started watching late eighties and saw a lot of great drivers never race but I reckon they were legends. However I can't judge how good they were by myself. I have to do it with articles and biographies or racing footage.


Which the OP simply did not do. He just used what he's seen from 2010 onwards to assess whether Schumacher really was that great without even bothering to look at his first career.

Harsh, maybe. But fair.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


No, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I can't see how you'd reach that conclusion if you'd gone back and watched the older races.

I wasn't around when Jim Clark was racing, but I wouldn't make a topic questioning how great he was, because you do the research first and see why everyone acknowledges how good a driver is/was.

Go back and watch him as a 'youngster' racing for Benetton etc, watch some of his onboard qualifying laps in the early 00s for Ferrari. I despised the man for most of his former career but you couldn't deny his ability.


But you are missing my point again....yes for a moment I'll say he was great as a youngster...but what about 2010-2012...lets leave out 2010 season as he didn't have the practice & was off speed...but for some guy who has 91 victories it is hard to believe that he struggles most of the time to get even in Q3...If we directly compare him to alonso,Fernando can clearly get more than what the car has got but schumacher just cannot do it.if the car is no good he just accepts the defeat & lets it go.Never tries to outperform the car...& again i am talking about his comeback seasons not the earlier ones!!!
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Myoclonic Jerk »

Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

kingelessar wrote:Fernando can clearly get more than what the car has got but schumacher just cannot do it.if the car is no good he just accepts the defeat & lets it go.Never tries to outperform the car...& again i am talking about his comeback seasons not the earlier ones!!!

Your majesty, forget about outperforming a car. It is impossible. While at Ferrari the car was his and his alone. That privilege is gone, and he can not make the car do something the car cannot do. No driver can.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

Myoclonic Jerk wrote:Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before



Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

so then is it really fair to call him Champion of Champions or Greatest Of All Time????
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Adaemus »

kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Adaemus wrote:
kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season...


Stopped reading there.

:thumbdown:
Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you should only speak about F1 if you have watched it from senna era?,does that make you pundit in formula 1??..how stupid!!!


No, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I can't see how you'd reach that conclusion if you'd gone back and watched the older races.

I wasn't around when Jim Clark was racing, but I wouldn't make a topic questioning how great he was, because you do the research first and see why everyone acknowledges how good a driver is/was.

Go back and watch him as a 'youngster' racing for Benetton etc, watch some of his onboard qualifying laps in the early 00s for Ferrari. I despised the man for most of his former career but you couldn't deny his ability.


But you are missing my point again....yes for a moment I'll say he was great as a youngster...but what about 2010-2012...lets leave out 2010 season as he didn't have the practice & was off speed...but for some guy who has 91 victories it is hard to believe that he struggles most of the time to get even in Q3...If we directly compare him to alonso,Fernando can clearly get more than what the car has got but schumacher just cannot do it.if the car is no good he just accepts the defeat & lets it go.Never tries to outperform the car...& again i am talking about his comeback seasons not the earlier ones!!!


Do people judge Michael Jordon on his ill-advised comeback or on his original career as one of the greatest basketball players in history?

Do you judge the Alien series on Alien: Resurrection?

Do you judge Mick Jagger & David Bowie on 'Dancing In The Street'? (Okay, maybe that one's a bit too ridiculous)

You're looking at his comeback in isolation, which is just a backwards way to go about things. Look at who he once was before you decide how great he was. Consider the 'comeback' as a cameo.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

kingelessar wrote:But you are missing my point again....yes for a moment I'll say he was great as a youngster...but what about 2010-2012...lets leave out 2010 season as he didn't have the practice & was off speed...but for some guy who has 91 victories it is hard to believe that he struggles most of the time to get even in Q3...If we directly compare him to alonso,Fernando can clearly get more than what the car has got but schumacher just cannot do it.if the car is no good he just accepts the defeat & lets it go.Never tries to outperform the car...& again i am talking about his comeback seasons not the earlier ones!!!

Well that's slightly different to what you wrote originally. If you are just talking about 2010-2012 then he clearly hasn't made the impact that he did in his former incarnation, but of course he no longer has the benefit of testing (see my earlier post).

However, I don't think you can compare him directly to e.g. Alonso at the moment as the Mercedes is clearly not as competitive as the Ferarri. He's not doing too badly at the moment against the only real benchmark: his team mate. He's had arguably the most bad luck of anybody this season but he's only once finished a race behind Rosberg, who is very highly thought of in the paddock. His race craft is still there in spades. And let's not forget Monaco, a circuit which is one of the best tests of driver skill and where he got pole this year (before the grid penalty for the previous race). It's a shame the Mercedes is not that competitive.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Myoclonic Jerk »

kingelessar wrote:
Myoclonic Jerk wrote:Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before



Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

so then is it really fair to call him Champion of Champions or Greatest Of All Time????


Why not? The ability to get the team 100% behind you is not easy. He didn't pay for it for sure so that could be the talent that Greatest of All Times need to have so they can extract every bit of talent they poses

Look at Alonso and how he's praised by his performance like a god. I don't think he would've been able to demonstrate his abilities if he was in, say, McLaren
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

kingelessar wrote:
Myoclonic Jerk wrote:Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before



Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

so then is it really fair to call him Champion of Champions or Greatest Of All Time????

Hmm, you're moving the goalposts here. Your original posts questioned whether he was great, not whether he was the Greatest Of All Time(sic). You need to clarify what your question is as those two will get you two different answers!

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by moshbeard »

When he joined Ferrari their cars were pretty awful and he got some great results, it's a shame for him that he did get a run of fantastic cars because it did make it a bit too easy for him and people will always doubt his ability. From the second he got into F1 even in a car that wasn't great he was impressing a lot of people, he was in F1 for a good few years before he got put in the all-conquering Ferraris that we remember him for and he did plenty to demonstrate his talent in that time.

He's obviously not been hugely impressive since his return but there have been moments when he's pulled off some impressive maneuvers and I don't feel he's ever looked in danger of really embarrassing himself or absolutely destroying his reputation.

Just to be clear I used to hate Schumacher when I was young, I was 100% behind Williams and McLaren but looking back it's clear he's one of the greatest F1 drivers in history if not the best all-rounder.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by kingelessar »

Zoue wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Myoclonic Jerk wrote:Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before



Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

so then is it really fair to call him Champion of Champions or Greatest Of All Time????

Hmm, you're moving the goalposts here. Your original posts questioned whether he was great, not whether he was the Greatest Of All Time(sic). You need to clarify what your question is as those two will get you two different answers!



i Admit,i got bit carried over there....But the question remains the same....As a driver should we call him great if he is consistently failing in 'not that bad' Mercedes & consistently get beaten by much younger team mate!!!
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Laura23 »

What is with all the ????!!!!!?????!!!!!?????

Anyway, short answer, yes Schumacher is one of the greats. Just watch Spain 96, Spa 95, Monaco 97, Hungary 98, Suzuka 00, Spa 02, Suzuka 02, Brazil 06, Spain 94, Spa 92 etc. Great drive fter great drive that spanned across a decade and a half.
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

kingelessar wrote:
Zoue wrote:i Admit,i got bit carried over there....But the question remains the same....As a driver should we call him great if he is consistently failing in 'not that bad' Mercedes & consistently get beaten by much younger team mate!!!

It all depends on how you define greatness. I consider him one of the best drivers in the history of F1, but never a great one.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by RoadPilgrim »

kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season & quickly became a big fan of F1 & raikkonen!!!Even at that point when Fernando Alonso was struggling with poor Renault i always felt that this is a very intelligent & fast guy...so even if he was not that successful at that time i became his huge admirer.
But comes in Schumacher in 2010 & every body starts praising him as if he is some God.For me or any New Fan he was just a new comer.And as soon as season starts i saw nothing spectacular about him..on the contrary he was involved in immature crashes with Petrov & kobayashi.2 Year hence he has done nothing praiseworthy apart from 1 podium.thats bit low for a guy who has 91 victories.if we compare him with Raikkonen or Alonso both have shown more speed & consistency than this so called F1 God.
Also to add he is known to reach to any dangerous levels just to win & we can have many examples of it!!!
So is he just able to perform only when car is perfect??Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????
I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!
I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!



p.s=mods,honestly this is not schumacher bashing thread...I respect him but i just don't like him!!!


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Zoue
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

kingelessar wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kingelessar wrote:
Myoclonic Jerk wrote:Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

I don't believe that he lost all his speed/talent/geniousness or whatever you want to call it over a 3 years break. The guy has been doing this all his life. A musician will not lose his talent if he stops for that long, all he would need is few sessions to get him back on rhythm .. I believe Schumi is still the same drive, but he doesn't have the right support that he needs to shine like before



Some drivers might just not perform if they don't have the team 100% behind them. Schumi might be one of those?

so then is it really fair to call him Champion of Champions or Greatest Of All Time????

Hmm, you're moving the goalposts here. Your original posts questioned whether he was great, not whether he was the Greatest Of All Time(sic). You need to clarify what your question is as those two will get you two different answers!



i Admit,i got bit carried over there....But the question remains the same....As a driver should we call him great if he is consistently failing in 'not that bad' Mercedes & consistently get beaten by much younger team mate!!!

But he's not getting consistently beaten by his much younger team mate, far from it. You need to look beyond the points total and see what actually happened before you can make a judgement like that:

    Australia - terminal gearbox failure while in third (ahead of Nico)
    Malaysia - qualified third (ahead of Nico) but hit from behind by Grosjean
    China - forced to retire after wheel incorrectly fitted
    Bahrain - DRS failure and grid penalty pushed him to back of grid, al;though worked his way up to 10th at end
    Barcelona - accident with Maldonado - own fault
    Monaco - qualified on pole but dropped to 6th after grid penalty and again hit by Grosjean
    Canada - retired due to jammed DRS flap
    Europe - qualified 12th but finished third, ahead of...
    Britain - finished 7th, ahead of...
    Germany - finished 7th, ahead of Nico, and set fastest lap of the race
    Hungary - retired due to mechanical failure
    Belgium - finished 7th, again ahead of Nico, despite losing 6th gear

he's had an inordinate amount of bad luck with 6 retirements this year, only one of which can be attributed to him. When he's finished a race it's always been ahead of his team mate apart from one occasion, and that was in Bahrain where he started from 23rd due to a combination of DRS failure and gear box penalty. Even then he still managed to work his way back to 10th. Every other time he's bested Nico, so it's simply not true to say that he's getting consistently beaten by him

edit: left out Hungary and China.
Last edited by Zoue on Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

becker
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by becker »

In his first career he was a very hard worker. He was early to the track, late to leave, constantly working with his engineers. In testing he would put in crazy hours and laps, significantly more than for example Irvine or Barichello.

It surely contributed a lot to his success but was one of the reasons he cited for his retirement. He wanted to spend more time with his family.

Fiki
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

becker wrote:In his first career he was a very hard worker. He was early to the track, late to leave, constantly working with his engineers. In testing he would put in crazy hours and laps, significantly more than for example Irvine or Barichello.

It surely contributed a lot to his success but was one of the reasons he cited for his retirement. He wanted to spend more time with his family.
You should of course have pointed out that he put in more testing than Irvine or Barrichello, because that's the way the team decided it; it was a one driver team.

Also, with testing as good as gone these days, it's not just the poor third drivers who are hurt; Schumacher and Button are prime examples of drivers who crave more testing time.
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Usman
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Usman »

But why were his actions considered unethical? I have read about the championship stripped and how he parked car on track during qualifying? He is an awesome driver, but such moves prove h would never be a great!!!.... and dont try negating me by saying that others who are considered greats did such moves too.... IMO a great driver wins fair and square, not by hook or by crook!!!
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froze
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by froze »

kingelessar wrote:a guy who has 91 victories.

I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!

You just answered to your own question.
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Siao7
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

kingelessar wrote:OP


Look, you made a mistake and questioned the man's whole career because of his comeback. Which was always a danger with the youngest fans when he decided to come back racing. That is wrong.

You cannot compare this career with the previous one without understanding what made him great. As was reported here, it was his work ethics and his efforts. Maybe not the fastest ever, not the best qualifier, but by god he got the results every time. Surely the sharpest out there, or let's say on of the sharpest. But what made him standing out for me is that for more than a decade he was up there. Always near the top. Other drivers had a good year or two, maybe a bit longer. Schumacher was always at the cutting edge, always the yardstick. You can get a lucky break or a lucky win or two. But over that span, it stops being luck.

The reason that the Merc is not improving is because of two factors; firstly it is essentially the old BAR team; they got a lucky break in 2009 but they were never a top team (maybe in 2004). Secondly the car cannot be developed as it used to back at those days. Unlimited testing meant that Schumacher could (and often did, ending up sleeping in the garage) put lap times after lap times to improve the car. This cannot be done today with all the testing limitations; it is after all what they were designed for.

All in all, you don't have to like the man to appreciate him. Some reading would show you why he was that good. Not just by myths; for example, there was an article back in the day showing the telemetry from his car and Barrichello's car, showing how much more speed he could carry in and out of a corner in the same car. Or the book from Allen. And then there's also something else that can never be wrong; the praise from his fellow drivers.

JMILAT
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by JMILAT »

kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season & quickly became a big fan of F1 & raikkonen!!!Even at that point when Fernando Alonso was struggling with poor Renault i always felt that this is a very intelligent & fast guy...so even if he was not that successful at that time i became his huge admirer.
But comes in Schumacher in 2010 & every body starts praising him as if he is some God.For me or any New Fan he was just a new comer.And as soon as season starts i saw nothing spectacular about him..on the contrary he was involved in immature crashes with Petrov & kobayashi.2 Year hence he has done nothing praiseworthy apart from 1 podium.thats bit low for a guy who has 91 victories.if we compare him with Raikkonen or Alonso both have shown more speed & consistency than this so called F1 God.
Also to add he is known to reach to any dangerous levels just to win & we can have many examples of it!!!
So is he just able to perform only when car is perfect??Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????
I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!
I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!



p.s=mods,honestly this is not schumacher bashing thread...I respect him but i just don't like him!!!

You should not compare Schumacher now with the one that raced in his first career. Other than the ruthless streak still about him he is clearly a shadow of his formerself barring perhaps the rare occasion.

Its definetly not true he could only perform when the car was perfect. His best years weren't really his domination years, it was from about the mid nineties to 2000. In that time he didn't have the best cars and at times his cars would be considered difficult cars to drive but he consistently would fight and outrace drivers with better cars and in the process completely destroying his team-mates. It was in this period perhaps his most outworldly performances were made. His driving in those years was a sight to behold as he consistently would hustle and dance the car completely on the edge regularly conjuring incredible performances. I believe he was still great after that period (I believe in that period Alonso was the only one to eventually match or surpass him) but perhaps not quite as freakish.

Obviously he has not come back anywhere near the same. And to be honest it shouldn't really have been a surprise. In a sport that relies a lot on the bodies senses he was coming in at an age when they were obviously never going to be as good as they once were, particularly with a 3 year break. I'd say he has lost a good half a second although he has definetly improved this year. Rosberg is a good driver but has not done anything to suggest an outworldly talent. For example Nakajima who was effectively a pay driver was only on average 3 and a half tenths behind Rosberg in qualifying. Or even that Webber was quicker than him at Williams (although Rosberg's first season). Compare that to Schumacher who dominated all his team-mates and had half a second on Massa in 2006, the same Massa that was as fast as Raikkonen. I think the old Schumacher would have most likely dominated Rosberg.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

Usman wrote:But why were his actions considered unethical? I have read about the championship stripped and how he parked car on track during qualifying? He is an awesome driver, but such moves prove h would never be a great!!!.... and dont try negating me by saying that others who are considered greats did such moves too.... IMO a great driver wins fair and square, not by hook or by crook!!!
And yet we are in a minority with that point of view, usman.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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