Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

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SJM1337
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by SJM1337 »

The fact that he can still be as quick as he is at 43 years of age, to get pole in Monaco, to outqualify Nico several times this season, to be right up there in the wet conditions when the Mercedes isn't as quick in the dry (Silverstone, Hockenheim), is something people just fail to take into consideration, to mix it with guys like Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and co. Imagine he was at his peak, late 20s, early 30s against these lot...

People also always fail to look past the 5 year domination with Ferrari, they forget 1990s, they forget 2006, they even forget 2011, where if it wasn't for the 4 times Schumacher DNF'd which weren't his fault, he would of been set to beat Rosberg in the points, at least finish equal with him.

I wonder what people would be saying right now if Schumacher had finished all the races this season and been right up there in the top 4 in the championship, what excuses would people make to hate on him, I've never seen so much hate for 1 driver. The truth is this season, he's been generally quicker then Nico Rosberg, he's outperformed the car on several occasions in the wet, he's been mixing it at the front but been stopped by issues on his car, if this was Hamilton having all these issues on his car and Button taking all the points home, people would moan that he's had all the bad luck and he should be ahead of Button.

zaar
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by zaar »

number_two wrote:I see that theres alot of arguing here, but the man asked "prove me wrong", and i think that Michael himself is the best person to prove you wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0iW2lLRjM
Barcelona 1996 - Schumacher driving ALOT faster than anyone else, some laps even 4 seconds faster than Villeneuve. In a Ferrari which was slower than Williams and on par with Benneton.


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZVKs45wd7E&feature=related
[/url]
Hungary 1998 - He pulled 20 qualifying laps in a row, one faster than other, to make the 3 stop strategy work. And he did it, against McLaren that was faster car.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MYPbkkiWw&feature=related
Brazil 2006 - After being relegated to the back of the field because of torn tyre, he climbed back into 4th place at end of race. Overtaking numerous cars in process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txogz5SZ6u4
Japan 1998 - After starting last, he climbed up to 3rd before his tyre picked up a puncture. In a Ferrari that wasnt best car in race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-X45KU2WMk
Monaco 1996 qualy - Faster 0.8s than Hill in last sector to take pole.

And some you can google for yourself :

France 2004 - won with a 4 stop strategy to overcome Fernando Alonso (your favorite driver i see)
Canada 2011 - 4th place that would have been 2nd without DRS, really good race considering the car he drives
Spa 1998 - Had enourmous lead in race before Coulthard took him out
Spain 1994 - He got stuck in 5th gear for more than 40 laps, and he still managed to finish second!
Spa 1991 qualy - His debut in a Jordan, car that never got higher than 10th in qualy that season, he qualified 7th.
Spa 1992 - Won with a car more than 2 seconds slower than Mansell's Williams in qualy


There is more if you want. But i think its enough, and more than any other driver except maybe Senna, Prost and Clark managed. And thats why Michael Schumacher is great.

(as for his 2nd career, when you are 40, you will know why it is like it is)

Edit :

I just have to add 2 races.

Imola 2005 and China 2006.


One more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_jmPs5oZow
Monaco 1997 - the whole race starting with the formation lap. The first laps were a demonstration ... (beware: german tv ;))

Saorsa
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Saorsa »

Maybe the FIA should ban sequential gearbox's. When we had manual gearboxes, thats when the sport had men who were hard as nails and not skinny kids.

As out of the whole field only Schumacher has driven F1 car with a manual gearbox. Then we will be able to see how bad/good these playstation kids really are.

We could also include the clutch. None of this preset clutch flap on the steering wheel. Get the clutch pedal back and the driver has to feel for the bite point through their feet.

Again only Schumacher in the current field has experience of this.

Just by having these back the "racing" aspect would improve ten fold.

steoc4
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by steoc4 »

One more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_jmPs5oZow
Monaco 1997 - the whole race starting with the formation lap. The first laps were a demonstration ... (beware: german tv )


Within three laps he was beating the entire field by nearly 20 seconds, in a car his team-mate couldn't even get anywhere near the points with. And that was almost expected whenever rain fell during his peak.

So many races like that where he didn't just beat everyone, he looked like he was on a different planet to anyone else. Guys like Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are great drivers, but I can't think of a single drive from any of them that could match up to any of a a dozen or so of Schumi's best.

f1fan22
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by f1fan22 »

Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness

f1guyus
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by f1guyus »

Every time this subject comes up I'm reminded of Graham Hill's wonderful comment after finishing second to Jim Clark at the old Nurburging (by some 8 minutes) Asked if Clark was really that good Hill dryly replied "Well none of us could catch him" When the car was close nobody could catch Schumacher either. Just close. When it was right you had him lapping everybody but second place.

Zoue
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

Saorsa wrote:Maybe the FIA should ban sequential gearbox's. When we had manual gearboxes, thats when the sport had men who were hard as nails and not skinny kids.

As out of the whole field only Schumacher has driven F1 car with a manual gearbox. Then we will be able to see how bad/good these playstation kids really are.

We could also include the clutch. None of this preset clutch flap on the steering wheel. Get the clutch pedal back and the driver has to feel for the bite point through their feet.

Again only Schumacher in the current field has experience of this.

Just by having these back the "racing" aspect would improve ten fold.

there are many who would agree with you. Unfortunately, as F1 is supposed to be cutting edge it would seem a completely retrograde step to go back to old fashioned gearboxes and I'm fairly confident we will never see their like again in F1.

Siao7
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

zaar wrote:
number_two wrote:I see that theres alot of arguing here, but the man asked "prove me wrong", and i think that Michael himself is the best person to prove you wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi0iW2lLRjM
Barcelona 1996 - Schumacher driving ALOT faster than anyone else, some laps even 4 seconds faster than Villeneuve. In a Ferrari which was slower than Williams and on par with Benneton.


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZVKs45wd7E&feature=related
[/url]
Hungary 1998 - He pulled 20 qualifying laps in a row, one faster than other, to make the 3 stop strategy work. And he did it, against McLaren that was faster car.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03MYPbkkiWw&feature=related
Brazil 2006 - After being relegated to the back of the field because of torn tyre, he climbed back into 4th place at end of race. Overtaking numerous cars in process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txogz5SZ6u4
Japan 1998 - After starting last, he climbed up to 3rd before his tyre picked up a puncture. In a Ferrari that wasnt best car in race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-X45KU2WMk
Monaco 1996 qualy - Faster 0.8s than Hill in last sector to take pole.

And some you can google for yourself :

France 2004 - won with a 4 stop strategy to overcome Fernando Alonso (your favorite driver i see)
Canada 2011 - 4th place that would have been 2nd without DRS, really good race considering the car he drives
Spa 1998 - Had enourmous lead in race before Coulthard took him out
Spain 1994 - He got stuck in 5th gear for more than 40 laps, and he still managed to finish second!
Spa 1991 qualy - His debut in a Jordan, car that never got higher than 10th in qualy that season, he qualified 7th.
Spa 1992 - Won with a car more than 2 seconds slower than Mansell's Williams in qualy


There is more if you want. But i think its enough, and more than any other driver except maybe Senna, Prost and Clark managed. And thats why Michael Schumacher is great.

(as for his 2nd career, when you are 40, you will know why it is like it is)

Edit :

I just have to add 2 races.

Imola 2005 and China 2006.


One more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_jmPs5oZow
Monaco 1997 - the whole race starting with the formation lap. The first laps were a demonstration ... (beware: german tv ;))



I always liked this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhPHPvXfLY

He gambles with intermediate and he gets about 10 seconds faster than anyone else in one lap. Brilliant stuff

Fiki
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

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Usman
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Usman »

Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...


People often fail to read a thread properly..... Everyone is trying to prove how awesome a driver he is... no doubt about that... but being unfair on track is wrong. simple as that.... his driving skills are awesome but unethical. and proving that other driver like senna or anyone wouldnt make schumi eithical.... it is what it is.. accept it.
KIMI: Yeah,Winning feels good.But I am not the type of guy to jump up and down and rub it in everyone's face.

Siao7
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Usman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...


People often fail to read a thread properly..... Everyone is trying to prove how awesome a driver he is... no doubt about that... but being unfair on track is wrong. simple as that.... his driving skills are awesome but unethical. and proving that other driver like senna or anyone wouldnt make schumi eithical.... it is what it is.. accept it.


You are missing the point as well. His bad moves are a tiny fraction of his achievements. You can chose and ignore all the great stuff and hang on the little silly things, up to you. But it won't be the real image of the guy.

Fiki
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

SchumieRules wrote:
Usman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...


People often fail to read a thread properly..... Everyone is trying to prove how awesome a driver he is... no doubt about that... but being unfair on track is wrong. simple as that.... his driving skills are awesome but unethical. and proving that other driver like senna or anyone wouldnt make schumi eithical.... it is what it is.. accept it.


You are missing the point as well. His bad moves are a tiny fraction of his achievements. You can chose and ignore all the great stuff and hang on the little silly things, up to you. But it won't be the real image of the guy.
I suppose in the end it just turns on what you call silly little things. I have a problem with ramming someone on purpose, and making others consider the risk of even trying to pass you when they can. Little things? I think not.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Siao7
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Usman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...


People often fail to read a thread properly..... Everyone is trying to prove how awesome a driver he is... no doubt about that... but being unfair on track is wrong. simple as that.... his driving skills are awesome but unethical. and proving that other driver like senna or anyone wouldnt make schumi eithical.... it is what it is.. accept it.


You are missing the point as well. His bad moves are a tiny fraction of his achievements. You can chose and ignore all the great stuff and hang on the little silly things, up to you. But it won't be the real image of the guy.
I suppose in the end it just turns on what you call silly little things. I have a problem with ramming someone on purpose, and making others consider the risk of even trying to pass you when they can. Little things? I think not.


I agree, hitting someone on purpose is not a silly little thing, I should have worded this differently. In the grand scheme though, it is the minority, that's where I was going with my comment.


Also, others don't consider the risk of passing him, he's always been fair on that respect. I can remember obviously a few races where he pushed the limits, even went over the limits if you wish. But not more than others in that respect. In fact many drivers have come out and supported the view that he is a fair racer, Vettel did only yesterday, so I'll take their word before yours if you don't mind.

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Herbalist
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Herbalist »

Fiki wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Usman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...


People often fail to read a thread properly..... Everyone is trying to prove how awesome a driver he is... no doubt about that... but being unfair on track is wrong. simple as that.... his driving skills are awesome but unethical. and proving that other driver like senna or anyone wouldnt make schumi eithical.... it is what it is.. accept it.


You are missing the point as well. His bad moves are a tiny fraction of his achievements. You can chose and ignore all the great stuff and hang on the little silly things, up to you. But it won't be the real image of the guy.
I suppose in the end it just turns on what you call silly little things. I have a problem with ramming someone on purpose, and making others consider the risk of even trying to pass you when they can. Little things? I think not.


I find it inredible that someone is actually sour our something a sportsman did so many years. And that's even on a topic that can be debated. Based on previous posts, you "know" you're right, which makes arguing something about the topic damn hard. But whatever rocks your boat.

@OP: Why is research your last option?
Hint: One exclamation mark is enough

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ohwell
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by ohwell »

Are you for Real???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?????!!!?????!!!!!!!!????????????!

Talking about his comeback , have you watched this season so far ? Forget about doing a little research before unleashing your 5-yr old like questions upon this forum ??!!?!?!?!?!?!!!?????!

Oh btw .... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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dizlexik
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by dizlexik »

Fiki wrote:
f1fan22 wrote:Yes.

See proof below:

7 WDCs = Greatness
First title stolen = bye bye greatness...

6 titles is still more than anyone! You gladly ignore 6 reasons. :thumbdown:
eeee

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Bentrovato
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Bentrovato »

First title stolen from what? Schumacher is awesome. You've got to be a fool or carrying around a lot of baggage filled with reasons why a supreme racing driver isn't great. Did you guys watch Spa this weekend? Did you see what Vettel did? What a race. F1 is a sport where a great driver, backed by a strong team gets the package right and then everyone changes the rules to make it harder for them but the greats still find a way to win. That's what Schumacher did in the Ferrari, that's what they are doing to Vettel now and yet he's still hanging in there. Alonso, taking a car that's not as strong as the competition and leading the filed - greatness. Lewis and Jenson? They are good, they are not great. Big difference.

I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.

Greg92
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Greg92 »

The confusing thing is that the original question should be specific and it isn't and that's why this debate and similar ones keep raging.

The real question should be either: "Is Schumacher a great DRIVER?" or "Is Schumacher really a great SPORTSMAN?"

When put like this, I think there's little doubt about each answer.

The amazing drives that Schumacher put during his career, like finishing over half a race stuck in ONE gear (even making a pit stop in the process), lapping almost everyone in the rain in driver tracks like Monaco and Spa, putting consecutive qualy laps during the race, and so on, is stuff that belongs to F1 lore along with Nuvolari, Fangio and Senna to mention but a few.

The controversies that have followed his career though leave little doubt that at least during crucial moments his behavior is unacceptable and he can never rank along the likes of Moss and Collins.

The real question though that needs answered is: Why do we follow the sport? Ideally I would like the best of both worlds but since this world isn't ideal, if I'd have to chose between the two personally I'd prefer 24 Schumachers, 20 Maradonnas and 2 Tysons battling and fighting each other because I follow the sport for the drives, not the drivers.

tmzxaar
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by tmzxaar »

Bentrovato wrote:First title stolen from what? Schumacher is awesome. You've got to be a fool or carrying around a lot of baggage filled with reasons why a supreme racing driver isn't great. Did you guys watch Spa this weekend? Did you see what Vettel did? What a race. F1 is a sport where a great driver, backed by a strong team gets the package right and then everyone changes the rules to make it harder for them but the greats still find a way to win. That's what Schumacher did in the Ferrari, that's what they are doing to Vettel now and yet he's still hanging in there. Alonso, taking a car that's not as strong as the competition and leading the filed - greatness. Lewis and Jenson? They are good, they are not great. Big difference.

I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.


?
H&H

Schumi4ever
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Schumi4ever »

kingelessar wrote:WoW.......When i decided to start the thread i was expecting to have a lot of heat from Die hard schumi fans...but i never expected this kind of Craziness for schumacher.He has got millions of fans who just absolutely love his style of driving & adore him....but on the flip side of coin he has got lots of people who think he dominated just because of the machinery he had at that times(i am not telling which side i belong to :-P ) & hate his aggressive tactics to win the race by hook or crook ....all i can take from this debate that he was good driver in his First career but is not at all spectacular in his comeback season...Probably a very wrong decision which will totally destroy the legacy & will force new F1 Fanatics ask questions about his talent just like i did!!!!


Wow, am definitely glad am not a new F1 fanatic then. Especially if you guys think 1 wrong decision is enough to wipe out the legacy from the first 15years of a glorious career.

Mate, not saying you are wrong to question his talent, but googling would have given you all the answers you wanted if you truly were confused on seeing him now, instead of forming an opinion based on what you saw from the past 2yrs.

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the incubus
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by the incubus »

kingelessar wrote:I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!
I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!

p.s=mods,honestly this is not schumacher bashing thread...I respect him but i just don't like him!!!


Out 250 races he finishes on the podium of 155 times which means he finished in the top 3 positions an astounding 62% of the time.

Breaking down podium finishes further, you will find the following to be factually accurate.
1. 59% of his podium finishes were wins (91 total wins).
2. 86% of his podium finishes were in the top 2 spots (43 2nd place finishes).
3. 21 3rd place finishes (most drivers at their very best never make it to 3rd place as many times over their careers)


Although those numbers speak for themselves, I disagree with people who feel he was not one of the greatest, if not the greatest driver of all time. Was he the fastest?... maybe not, was he the best qualifier? no he wasn't, was he the best at car setup? Some say no but I believe him to be one of the top 5 of all time in that area. What he was however, was the driver who, when you average it all out together, was the best we've ever seen. For instance, Senna was a superior qualifier and Prost was superior in the political arena in how he gelled with his teams to rally them behind him and both were closely matched come sunday. From what I saw from them both, Schumacher was the best of both of them combined (were he in a better car perhaps he might still be). He was able to rally his teams around him and although was never the greatest qualifier comparatively to a very select few drivers (his 68 Pole Positions still tops the list so not too shabby), come Sundays his game face was on and he was much more often than not in the hunt for a win. He was a machine, executing the game plan with killer precision, giving his all at all times. In 2006 he was still sharp as ever and were it not for the ultra rare kablamo of his engine, he might now be an 8-Time World Champion. It was that close. Alonso was Brilliant no doubt but Michael was every bit as sharp.

Finally, looking at his tenure in the sport, it consisted of 14 years and the lowest he ever finished in the WDC was 5th and that was the 1999 season where he broke his leg and did not contest 6 of the races. Considering in that year Irvine finished a very close 2nd to Hakkinen just 2 points behind, Schumacher may have well won the championship that year, adding to the likelihood he could have been a 9-time world champion. I wrote this to illustrate for the OP just what an amazing force of sheer and utter dominance he was.

This should more than suffice in answering that bit I underlined above.
Second place is the first loser!

Taters82
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Taters82 »

kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season


You expect people to value your opinion on a driver before your time?

kingelessar wrote:I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!


You either like a driver or you don't. You can't want to like a sportsperson and make it happen. Especially somebody who reached their greatest before you were even born or started watching. Unless you were watching the sport from 94 onwards, you're just not gonna get it. I can watch videos of Senna vs Prost and admire their talents, but it's not the same as waiting 2 weeks for a championship deciding race and being emotionally involved in the outcome. I was a pretty big Schumi fan from the early 90's and have experienced a lot of emotion as a fan over those years, good and bad.

And yes, Schumacher is not the racer he once was and he was always facing an uphill battle. Though things haven't exactly gone his way this season and the car is getting worse in relation to the competition. Every driver will struggle as they age. And they are lucky enough to be able to have a good chance of surviving their racing careers to see that day. Nobody can beat the laws of physics, not even Schumacher or Hamilton or Alonso.....etc etc
Last edited by Taters82 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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the incubus
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by the incubus »

Fiki wrote:I suppose in the end it just turns on what you call silly little things. I have a problem with ramming someone on purpose, and making others consider the risk of even trying to pass you when they can. Little things? I think not.


What does Senna have to do with this conversation? ;)
Second place is the first loser!

Fiki
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

the incubus wrote:
Fiki wrote:I suppose in the end it just turns on what you call silly little things. I have a problem with ramming someone on purpose, and making others consider the risk of even trying to pass you when they can. Little things? I think not.


What does Senna have to do with this conversation? ;)

He's haunting it! :D
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Fiki
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

Bentrovato wrote:First title stolen from what?
Not from what, from whom. And that answer is pretty clear, isn't it? If I have to spell it out for you, here goes: two drivers are in the hunt for the title; and one puts his car in the wall. When the other wants to overtake, the one with the damaged car makes sure neither driver finishes. Clear now? If not, here goes: he tried the same trick within three years... Clear now?

Bentrovato wrote:I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.
You think it's weird because you make the error of thinking Prost would have killed to win the championship. Those who don't understand that that is an error need to discard the notion that something that happened twenty years ago, is somehow irrelevant. It isn't, especially so as the driver we consider in this thread is still racing. Perhaps I remember because I was there in 1991 when he had a very impressive qualifying at Francorchamps.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Siao7
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:First title stolen from what?
Not from what, from whom. And that answer is pretty clear, isn't it? If I have to spell it out for you, here goes: two drivers are in the hunt for the title; and one puts his car in the wall. When the other wants to overtake, the one with the damaged car makes sure neither driver finishes. Clear now? If not, here goes: he tried the same trick within three years... Clear now?

Bentrovato wrote:I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.
You think it's weird because you make the error of thinking Prost would have killed to win the championship. Those who don't understand that that is an error need to discard the notion that something that happened twenty years ago, is somehow irrelevant. It isn't, especially so as the driver we consider in this thread is still racing. Perhaps I remember because I was there in 1991 when he had a very impressive qualifying at Francorchamps.


While MS would?

A bit of a bold statement don't you think for a spur of the moment move at a low speed corner?

In fact, the only driver who had warned that he would willfully hit someone else at high speed is Senna.

ferdinand
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by ferdinand »

Back to the OP, it's not whether Schumacher is a great athlete or not, so it's not about "ramming into someone deliberately" as a factor of greatness that everybody can see it very differently. He/she asks what can be said "great" about a driver who is absolutely trounced by his team mate and does nothing significant in the races as what he/she sees now.

kingelessar wrote:For me or any New Fan he was just a new comer.And as soon as season starts i saw nothing spectacular about him..on the contrary he was involved in immature crashes with Petrov & kobayashi.2 Year hence he has done nothing praiseworthy apart from 1 podium.thats bit low for a guy who has 91 victories.if we compare him with Raikkonen or Alonso both have shown more speed & consistency than this so called F1 God.

I think the answers on this thread are more than enough to explain what he/she asks without having to debate on how sportmanship (which is very subjective) may affect the greatness.
Last edited by ferdinand on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

SchumieRules wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:First title stolen from what?
Not from what, from whom. And that answer is pretty clear, isn't it? If I have to spell it out for you, here goes: two drivers are in the hunt for the title; and one puts his car in the wall. When the other wants to overtake, the one with the damaged car makes sure neither driver finishes. Clear now? If not, here goes: he tried the same trick within three years... Clear now?

Bentrovato wrote:I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.
You think it's weird because you make the error of thinking Prost would have killed to win the championship. Those who don't understand that that is an error need to discard the notion that something that happened twenty years ago, is somehow irrelevant. It isn't, especially so as the driver we consider in this thread is still racing. Perhaps I remember because I was there in 1991 when he had a very impressive qualifying at Francorchamps.


While MS would?

A bit of a bold statement don't you think for a spur of the moment move at a low speed corner?

In fact, the only driver who had warned that he would willfully hit someone else at high speed is Senna.
I didn't say MS would. I sincerely hope he never would. But the fact remains that as late as 2010 he didn't mind putting a competitor in serious danger.

I know people think Senna said before the race at Suzuka that he would hit someone at high speed; but the fact is that he only admitted that a year later. I believe nobody knew his intention, as he would have been risking his super licence. And quite rightly so.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by the incubus »

SchumieRules wrote:In fact, the only driver who had warned that he would willfully hit someone else at high speed is Senna.

This is precisely why for me, brilliant as he was, there will always be a huge question mark on the man.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:First title stolen from what?
Not from what, from whom. And that answer is pretty clear, isn't it? If I have to spell it out for you, here goes: two drivers are in the hunt for the title; and one puts his car in the wall. When the other wants to overtake, the one with the damaged car makes sure neither driver finishes. Clear now? If not, here goes: he tried the same trick within three years... Clear now?

Bentrovato wrote:I also don't understand why people have a problem specifically about Schumacher ramming his car into Villeneuve to try and stop him from winning the championship. He got penalized for it - end of story. Senna and Prost would have killed each other to win the championship and DID ram into each other at full throttle yet we regard that as an epic battle. Weird.
You think it's weird because you make the error of thinking Prost would have killed to win the championship. Those who don't understand that that is an error need to discard the notion that something that happened twenty years ago, is somehow irrelevant. It isn't, especially so as the driver we consider in this thread is still racing. Perhaps I remember because I was there in 1991 when he had a very impressive qualifying at Francorchamps.


While MS would?

A bit of a bold statement don't you think for a spur of the moment move at a low speed corner?

In fact, the only driver who had warned that he would willfully hit someone else at high speed is Senna.
I didn't say MS would. I sincerely hope he never would. But the fact remains that as late as 2010 he didn't mind putting a competitor in serious danger.

I know people think Senna said before the race at Suzuka that he would hit someone at high speed; but the fact is that he only admitted that a year later. I believe nobody knew his intention, as he would have been risking his super licence. And quite rightly so.


Apologies Fiki, I jumped the gun there, took it completely the wrong way and it was unfair. I hope this is not going to offend you.

As for Senna, I thought he vowed not to yield the corner immediately after Belestre made obvious that he wouldn't swap the positions

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by the incubus »

Fiki wrote:I didn't say MS would. I sincerely hope he never would. But the fact remains that as late as 2010 he didn't mind putting a competitor in serious danger.

To be fair, Michael admitted he crossed the line and did apologize openly for the move on Rubens.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Formula1Fan. »

He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.
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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.


In that sense, Fangio also drove in one man teams, I mean his team mates were forced to give up their cars for him, right?

Is he a great?

Of course he is. Nothing to do with his driving.


But looking at how Schumacher and Hakkinen both pushed each other when they were at the top is something that would give you your answer; it really took out the best in both of them. Being in the same team would have done exactly the same, I have no doubt

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.

He closely matched his 3 times WDC team mate, Nelson Piquet, in his debut (half) season in 1991, and in fact out-qualified him 5 out of 6 times that year. Piquet was no slouch, so I'd say that Michael definitely showed even then that he had what it takes against tough opposition.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Retro-Virus »

kingelessar wrote:I started watching formula 1 from mid 2008 season & quickly became a big fan of F1 & raikkonen!!!Even at that point when Fernando Alonso was struggling with poor Renault i always felt that this is a very intelligent & fast guy...so even if he was not that successful at that time i became his huge admirer.
But comes in Schumacher in 2010 & every body starts praising him as if he is some God.For me or any New Fan he was just a new comer.And as soon as season starts i saw nothing spectacular about him..on the contrary he was involved in immature crashes with Petrov & kobayashi.2 Year hence he has done nothing praiseworthy apart from 1 podium.thats bit low for a guy who has 91 victories.if we compare him with Raikkonen or Alonso both have shown more speed & consistency than this so called F1 God.
Also to add he is known to reach to any dangerous levels just to win & we can have many examples of it!!!
So is he just able to perform only when car is perfect??Should we praise Ferrari for 2000-2005 dominance instead of him????
I really want to be big fan of his but i just don't know what should i like in him!!!
I really want to be proved wrong when i say that he is not that great....SO PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!



p.s=mods,honestly this is not schumacher bashing thread...I respect him but i just don't like him!!!


Hi OP, yes Schumacher is really that great, despite everything that has happened in his career. It would help, if you try to catch some old F1 season review videos on you-tube, and/or perhaps check out James Allen's "Driven to Extremes".

Cheers !
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Argentum »

Zoue wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.

He closely matched his 3 times WDC team mate, Nelson Piquet, in his debut (half) season in 1991, and in fact out-qualified him 5 out of 6 times that year. Piquet was no slouch, so I'd say that Michael definitely showed even then that he had what it takes against tough opposition.



Well yes, but Piquet was almost 40 then, and well past his prime. It's not dissimilar to comparing Rosberg with Schumacher now, and using that to say how Rosberg might have fared against him, in his heyday.


For the record, in answer to the OP's question: yes.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Zoue »

Argentum wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.

He closely matched his 3 times WDC team mate, Nelson Piquet, in his debut (half) season in 1991, and in fact out-qualified him 5 out of 6 times that year. Piquet was no slouch, so I'd say that Michael definitely showed even then that he had what it takes against tough opposition.



Well yes, but Piquet was almost 40 then, and well past his prime. It's not dissimilar to comparing Rosberg with Schumacher now, and using that to say how Rosberg might have fared against him, in his heyday.

For the record, in answer to the OP's question: yes.

very true, but Piquet was still a great driver (and the first driver I supported ;) ). It was still impressive for a rookie to come in mid-season and match him, though

edit: messed up quotes
Last edited by Zoue on Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Fiki »

SchumieRules wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.


In that sense, Fangio also drove in one man teams, I mean his team mates were forced to give up their cars for him, right?

Is he a great?

Of course he is. Nothing to do with his driving.


But looking at how Schumacher and Hakkinen both pushed each other when they were at the top is something that would give you your answer; it really took out the best in both of them. Being in the same team would have done exactly the same, I have no doubt
Have you heard about the team mate who gave up his car despite still being in the hunt for the title? Because he thought the best man should win? Not quite being forced, is it? And remember, taking over a team mate's car meant scoring only half the points...

How do you define greatness?
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Greg92 »

Fiki wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.


In that sense, Fangio also drove in one man teams, I mean his team mates were forced to give up their cars for him, right?

Is he a great?

Of course he is. Nothing to do with his driving.


But looking at how Schumacher and Hakkinen both pushed each other when they were at the top is something that would give you your answer; it really took out the best in both of them. Being in the same team would have done exactly the same, I have no doubt
Have you heard about the team mate who gave up his car despite still being in the hunt for the title? Because he thought the best man should win? Not quite being forced, is it? And remember, taking over a team mate's car meant scoring only half the points...

How do you define greatness?


Simple. Collins was a great sportsman for offering his car. Fangio wasn't for accepting it.

And let's not forget that Fangio took over Musso's car previously without Musso offering it.

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Re: Is Schumacher Really That Great??????????

Post by Siao7 »

Greg92 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:
Formula1Fan. wrote:He was a great driver, is he that great? difficult to say since he drove for one-driver teams

How would he have fared at McLaren for example against another world champion with equal status?

We'll never know but that question of being the preferred driver at unquestionably the best team hangs over his legacy.


In that sense, Fangio also drove in one man teams, I mean his team mates were forced to give up their cars for him, right?

Is he a great?

Of course he is. Nothing to do with his driving.


But looking at how Schumacher and Hakkinen both pushed each other when they were at the top is something that would give you your answer; it really took out the best in both of them. Being in the same team would have done exactly the same, I have no doubt
Have you heard about the team mate who gave up his car despite still being in the hunt for the title? Because he thought the best man should win? Not quite being forced, is it? And remember, taking over a team mate's car meant scoring only half the points...

How do you define greatness?


Simple. Collins was a great sportsman for offering his car. Fangio wasn't for accepting it.

And let's not forget that Fangio took over Musso's car previously without Musso offering it.


Fagioli is a good example. He was ordered to give up his car because Fangio's was misfiring. They swapped cars and he ended up finishing 22 laps behind. He didn't like it and even Fangio admitted that the sharing car system was totally unfair. Fagioli quit F1 after that

(http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/11773.html)

I wasn't around back then, but it seems that not everyone was happy about the car sharing

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