Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

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Who is the best British World Drivers Champion?

Mike Hawthorn
0
No votes
John Surtees
3
2%
Jim Clark
77
43%
Graham Hill
6
3%
Jackie Stewart
32
18%
James Hunt
8
4%
Nigel Mansell
13
7%
Damon Hill
7
4%
Lewis Hamilton
27
15%
Jenson Button
7
4%
 
Total votes: 180

chefgordiemac
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by chefgordiemac »

Gothnak....I would not entirely agree with the statement that the driver is only as good as his car...That might hold some bearing over a limited amount of time (see S Vettel, in my opinion)....It's what they accomplish in a car that's not a top flight vehicle....That's the telling stat, I would think
And, if my memory serves me correctly, Clark won in every category he raced...F1, Saloon Cars, Indy Cars (first man to ever lap at 150 MPH at Indy), Sports Cars...you name it
Thanks for your time

nike2die4
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by nike2die4 »

Blake wrote:Hiya, Nike...

As I said, they are entitled to their opinion, but when they proudly post on here that they don't know anything about the legends that are on the list, and that they can't be bothered to learn... to me, that is disrespectful on their part. Perhaps it was a little harsh on my part, but if it is not laziness, then it is a case of not wanting to know about the past greats (for what reason?, I bet that you know)... If they are on-line to post here then there is a whole world of information available to them at a click of the mouse, if only they wanted to know.

BTW, Who is stopping them from making their decisions and having their opinions? However, like you or me, when we make a post, they are subject to "review" by the forum. Heaven knows that some of my posts have gotten many a response, not all positive...and you have, no doubt, some of yours questioned as well.... so why should these be immune?

well if someone doesn't want to enlighten themselves then it's their loss imo....am not saying they should be immune,i just feel that there are alot of harsh comments directed at them though as i said,i could understand why it's mind boggling,it's like one coming out and saying that Obama is the best president America has had(without them researching about Americas past leaders and their works) it's nothing but an ill informed opinion and they are doing themselves no favour in having such an opinion.

predatore
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by predatore »

Clark.

Siao7
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Siao7 »

nike2die4 wrote:
Blake wrote:Hiya, Nike...

As I said, they are entitled to their opinion, but when they proudly post on here that they don't know anything about the legends that are on the list, and that they can't be bothered to learn... to me, that is disrespectful on their part. Perhaps it was a little harsh on my part, but if it is not laziness, then it is a case of not wanting to know about the past greats (for what reason?, I bet that you know)... If they are on-line to post here then there is a whole world of information available to them at a click of the mouse, if only they wanted to know.

BTW, Who is stopping them from making their decisions and having their opinions? However, like you or me, when we make a post, they are subject to "review" by the forum. Heaven knows that some of my posts have gotten many a response, not all positive...and you have, no doubt, some of yours questioned as well.... so why should these be immune?

well if someone doesn't want to enlighten themselves then it's their loss imo....am not saying they should be immune,i just feel that there are alot of harsh comments directed at them though as i said,i could understand why it's mind boggling,it's like one coming out and saying that Obama is the best president America has had(without them researching about Americas past leaders and their works) it's nothing but an ill informed opinion and they are doing themselves no favour in having such an opinion.


So harsh comments are kind of expected I guess!

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Guia
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Guia »

SchumieRules wrote:Did you seriously write that?

Seriously?

It's embarrassing. Beyond ignorant.

It's one thing to be willfully uninformed, but to fill in the gaps of such a meagre understanding by contriving arbitrary and self-evidently fallacious arguments is verging on the offensive. And that's before you look to the sentiments themselves, which are borderline toxic.

The poster has in one foul swoop destroyed any credibility they might have had. Which is a jolly good thing lest others might have thought to read a single word more.

EDIT - For the purposes of restraint.
Last edited by Guia on Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Siao7
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Siao7 »

Guia wrote:
SchumieRules wrote:Did you seriously write that?

Seriously?

It's embarrassing. Beyond ignorant.

It's one thing to be willfully uninformed, but to fill in the gaps of such a meagre understanding by contriving arbitrary and self-evidently fallacious arguments is verging on the offensive. And that's before you look to the sentiments themselves, which are borderline toxic.

The poster has in one foul swoop destroyed any credibility they might have had. Which is a jolly good thing lest others might have thought to read a single word more.

Shocking example of the corrupting power of intellectual deprivation.


Well, as pointed out, he used to post some nice posts in the past. And just like that;

Image

it's gone!

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Guia
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Guia »

SchumieRules wrote:Well, as pointed out, he used to post some nice posts in the past. And just like that;

Image

it's gone!

Yep, I know. Sad.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by schumi7 »

Laura23 wrote:Three people voted Hamilton? Over Clark and Stewart? You guys are mad.

I know right? People voted for Button and Hill too over those guys.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by lamo »

Jim Clark won over 50% of the races he finished. The highest proportion of any F1 driver.

He lost 2 WDCs in the last race due to reliability.

The guy won the British touring car championship and the Indy 500 during his F1 career.

He died 45 years ago and we are heavily debating him. They will be doing the same in 10, 20, 30 years time..

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by DOLOMITE »

I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

For the rest I'd have go from what I've read and come to the conclusion that it's Clark. It does seem that when he had the rigt machinery and didn't break down he was in a different league and the competation he faces was none too shabby.

What stands out most though when you view that list is just how wrong it is that there's a name 'missing'.. Stirling Moss.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Blake »

DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

For the rest I'd have go from what I've read and come to the conclusion that it's Clark. It does seem that when he had the rigt machinery and didn't break down he was in a different league and the competation he faces was none too shabby.

What stands out most though when you view that list is just how wrong it is that there's a name 'missing'.. Stirling Moss.


Dolo...

Thus the misfortune of Stirling Moss having never won the WDC, otherwise a legitimate debate between Clark, Stewart and Moss could be interesting.
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Guia
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Guia »

DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by nike2die4 »

Guia wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Fiki »

nike2die4 wrote:
Guia wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Blake »

Fiki wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.



Hi, Fiki,

I am a bit confused here.

As is obvious, I have been campaigning for Jim Clark in this thread... however, though I consistently rate him in the Top 3 of all time, and am a big fan of his, I am not sure who you are referring to as the most successful F1 driver in history? If you go by wins or points, it is Schumi, if you go by winning percentage it is Fangio, and if you WDCs, it is again Schumi. Now, those are just numbers and one can apply their own standards, I supposed, I was just curious what standard you are using here.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by lunatic »

Damon is my favourite but i voted Jackie, for everything he has done off the track as well as on it.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Fiki »

Blake wrote:
Fiki wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.



Hi, Fiki,

I am a bit confused here.

As is obvious, I have been campaigning for Jim Clark in this thread... however, though I consistently rate him in the Top 3 of all time, and am a big fan of his, I am not sure who you are referring to as the most successful F1 driver in history? If you go by wins or points, it is Schumi, if you go by winning percentage it is Fangio, and if you WDCs, it is again Schumi. Now, those are just numbers and one can apply their own standards, I supposed, I was just curious what standard you are using here.
:D
Surely you know I never play the percentages! :D Moreover, Damon never raced against Fangio, so it couldn't be him in the first place.

I voted for Jim Clark myself, I wish I had seen him drive. But Damon is certainly up there with the best, simply because he had to work harder than most to be so successful.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by SwSpeed »

nike2die4 wrote:
Guia wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?



Lol, the issue is really that you ignored Steward. He had his own team with Ford in 90s so ya should have seen him around. 3x champ, no controversies. Had b*lls big enough to stand up and discuss security for drivers despite was called afraid and wimp. That is really all in.
..

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Bigbazz »

Has to be Jackie Stewart for me, they are all deserving but Jackie stands out from my point of view.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by j man »

Fiki wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Guia wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.

And if we're to be consistent in applying that sort of logic then that's the same number of titles as Ayrton Senna....

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Guia »

nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

22 wins. 20 pole positions. 19 fastest laps. A percentage of wins-to-starts that even today puts him 10th in the all-time standings (at the time of his WDC win he was 4th behind Fangio, Ascari and Clark). Twice runner-up in the WDC. Third in his first full season. The only driver in history to win three consecutive races from maiden victory. A rookie performance so competitive that were it not for several retirements he would have usurped Senna and challenged team-mate Prost for the title - despite a clearly defined supporting role. Made winners again of Williams in the wake of Ayrton's death, even though they weren't winning while the Brazilian was still alive. Took a devastated and dejected team to the WCC, and within a single point of the WDC. Produced one of the drives of the decade to win the 1994 Japanese GP in torrential conditions. Won the season finale 1995 Australian GP by the second-largest margin in history, scoring a hat-trick along the way. A total of 5 hat-tricks (pole, win, fastest lap) would put him 7th in the all-time standings and equal with Hakkinen and Mansell. Claimed 8 wins from 16 races in 1996, putting him behind only Mansell, Schumacher and Vettel, and equal with Hakkinen and Senna. The only driver in history to qualify on the front row for every race in a season. Turned backmarkers Arrows into a team which by mid-season were regularly qualifying in the top 10, challenging for points and podiums, and passing Ferraris in the process. Spent a season out-qualifying team-mate Deniz by an average of more than 1.0s a lap. Led waning midfielders Jordan from early-season oblivion to late-season glory, in the last six rounds scoring as many points as third-placed Coulthard and fewer only than WDC Hakkinen and runner-up Schumacher. Gave Jordan their first win.

Casting doubt on Hill's record of achievement is perhaps not the way to go. You might want to question his outright abilities; by all means ask whether he had what it takes to truly get the job done; wonder as to whether Williams' failure to get on terms with Benetton in 1994 came down to a deficit of driver talent; query whether he might have mounted a serious title challenge in 1995 even had he not been constantly throwing his car off the road; speculate as to what Damon's disastrous last season says about his inherent skill; ponder, perhaps, whether he was ever the best man for the job.

But don't question his achievements. At least give yourself a fighting chance.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Clark or Stewart

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by toilet »

Guia wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?
it's just above


Indeed, Damon, his achievements and his ability, deserve far more respect than he generally receives. Everyone would do well to remember that he didn't start racing of at all until he was 21, and that was in bikes, funding himself as a labourer. He didn't move to cars until he was 23, and rarely raced until his first full season when he was 25. He moved through the ranks until he got his Williams chance, and so only started testing in F1 when he was already 31, the rest we all know.

To have not grown up racing, to have only started at all at 21, to have missed all that development, to have then had literally no money to eek out a racing career, or decent equipment, yet to have still made it to F1, even if not until in his 30's, and to have not just made it to F1, but to have excelled, taken his chance, won the title, and come runner up a couple of times, along with the extensive list of achievements given by Guia, is nothing short of astonishing and should never be considered as anything less.

Having said that, he'd probably only be 5th or 6th on my list of best British WDC's.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Gothnak »

Guia wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

22 wins. 20 pole positions. 19 fastest laps. A percentage of wins-to-starts that even today puts him 10th in the all-time standings (at the time of his WDC win he was 4th behind Fangio, Ascari and Clark). Twice runner-up in the WDC. Third in his first full season. The only driver in history to win three consecutive races from maiden victory. A rookie performance so competitive that were it not for several retirements he would have usurped Senna and challenged team-mate Prost for the title - despite a clearly defined supporting role. Made winners again of Williams in the wake of Ayrton's death, even though they weren't winning while the Brazilian was still alive. Took a devastated and dejected team to the WCC, and within a single point of the WDC. Produced one of the drives of the decade to win the 1994 Japanese GP in torrential conditions. Won the season finale 1995 Australian GP by the second-largest margin in history, scoring a hat-trick along the way. A total of 5 hat-tricks (pole, win, fastest lap) would put him 7th in the all-time standings and equal with Hakkinen and Mansell. Claimed 8 wins from 16 races in 1996, putting him behind only Mansell, Schumacher and Vettel, and equal with Hakkinen and Senna. The only driver in history to qualify on the front row for every race in a season. Turned backmarkers Arrows into a team which by mid-season were regularly qualifying in the top 10, challenging for points and podiums, and passing Ferraris in the process. Spent a season out-qualifying team-mate Deniz by an average of more than 1.0s a lap. Led waning midfielders Jordan from early-season oblivion to late-season glory, in the last six rounds scoring as many points as third-placed Coulthard and fewer only than WDC Hakkinen and runner-up Schumacher. Gave Jordan their first win.

Casting doubt on Hill's record of achievement is perhaps not the way to go. You might want to question his outright abilities; by all means ask whether he had what it takes to truly get the job done; wonder as to whether Williams' failure to get on terms with Benetton in 1994 came down to a deficit of driver talent; query whether he might have mounted a serious title challenge in 1995 even had he not been constantly throwing his car off the road; speculate as to what Damon's disastrous last season says about his inherent skill; ponder, perhaps, whether he was ever the best man for the job.

But don't question his achievements. At least give yourself a fighting chance.


I always thought that Hill's greatest ability was feedback and car development. It always seemed that when he drove for a team the car got a lot better very quickly. People then say 'well, he just did well for Williams because he had a fast car', i always assumed it was fast because he was there in the first place.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by toilet »

Gothnak wrote:I always thought that Hill's greatest ability was feedback and car development. It always seemed that when he drove for a team the car got a lot better very quickly. People then say 'well, he just did well for Williams because he had a fast car', i always assumed it was fast because he was there in the first place.

Quite, and in that respect his achievements rather speak for themselves, and not just on his own record. He's largely been credited with being hugely influential in the development of the Williams for 92 and 93, both constructors' and drivers' title winners.
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Fiki »

j man wrote:
Fiki wrote: Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.

And if we're to be consistent in applying that sort of logic then that's the same number of titles as Ayrton Senna....
As critical as I am of Senna, I would find it hard to agree outright, but you make a point worth pondering.

Guia wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

22 wins. 20 pole positions. 19 fastest laps. A percentage of wins-to-starts that even today puts him 10th in the all-time standings (at the time of his WDC win he was 4th behind Fangio, Ascari and Clark). Twice runner-up in the WDC. Third in his first full season. The only driver in history to win three consecutive races from maiden victory. A rookie performance so competitive that were it not for several retirements he would have usurped Senna and challenged team-mate Prost for the title - despite a clearly defined supporting role. Made winners again of Williams in the wake of Ayrton's death, even though they weren't winning while the Brazilian was still alive. Took a devastated and dejected team to the WCC, and within a single point of the WDC. Produced one of the drives of the decade to win the 1994 Japanese GP in torrential conditions. Won the season finale 1995 Australian GP by the second-largest margin in history, scoring a hat-trick along the way. A total of 5 hat-tricks (pole, win, fastest lap) would put him 7th in the all-time standings and equal with Hakkinen and Mansell. Claimed 8 wins from 16 races in 1996, putting him behind only Mansell, Schumacher and Vettel, and equal with Hakkinen and Senna. The only driver in history to qualify on the front row for every race in a season. Turned backmarkers Arrows into a team which by mid-season were regularly qualifying in the top 10, challenging for points and podiums, and passing Ferraris in the process. Spent a season out-qualifying team-mate Deniz by an average of more than 1.0s a lap. Led waning midfielders Jordan from early-season oblivion to late-season glory, in the last six rounds scoring as many points as third-placed Coulthard and fewer only than WDC Hakkinen and runner-up Schumacher. Gave Jordan their first win.

Casting doubt on Hill's record of achievement is perhaps not the way to go. You might want to question his outright abilities; by all means ask whether he had what it takes to truly get the job done; wonder as to whether Williams' failure to get on terms with Benetton in 1994 came down to a deficit of driver talent; query whether he might have mounted a serious title challenge in 1995 even had he not been constantly throwing his car off the road; speculate as to what Damon's disastrous last season says about his inherent skill; ponder, perhaps, whether he was ever the best man for the job.

But don't question his achievements. At least give yourself a fighting chance.
Remind me to take a hat with me to London next time, because if I were to meet you, I would take it off for that post alone.

It's a long time ago since we had a thread on this forum that delved deeper into 1994 (I believe it was around 2002), and one of my conclusions from what we were able to find out, was that Williams let Hill down very seriously indeed after the final race of that season. If they hadn't, we would likely be speaking about Damon Hill as a three times world champion, not (quite incorrectly) one. That inexcusable error still needs to be corrected.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

SomervilleF1
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by SomervilleF1 »

1st Clark by a margin. 2nd Stewart again by a margin. 3rd well that's harder, I'm open to debate on that. D Hill, Hawthorn, Button and Hunt need not apply.

In fact other than blinkered admiration or the 'I will only and always vote for my favourite' attitude, I have no idea why Damon or Jenson have ANY votes.

Jimmy was awesome and arguably the greatest ever, a natural talent with incredible speed. However, was a true gentlemen, sportsman, and admired by pretty much ALL his peers. Possibly the perfect race driver. The 'if only' argument about what he could have achieved is exactly that 'if only' but if he hadn't had that fateful accident his career end stats would have been even more outstanding.

Jackie has similiar outstanding stats, and again was held in high regard by his peers. Also what Stewart did for the sport must also be taken into account when talking about the 'best' or 'greatest'.

3rd place to me is rather difficult, Surtees for his versatility on different genres, but does that make him the BEST F1 champion. G Hill also for what he achieved away from F1 ( Indy 500 ) and the fact he's a multi-champion. Mansell for his sheer dogged determination and ultimate achievements both sides of the pond. Lastly Hamilton, not a fan, however has made such an impact to the sport, and is no doubt one of the most natural talented Brits.

I ultimately have respect for all the drivers on the list, all champions, and all winners, and this is only my opinion above after all.. and what do I know. Haha.

lamo

Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by lamo »

Senna ranked Fangio and Clark as the best two drivers ever. Jim Clark was Senna's F1 idol.


M.Nader -DODZ-
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by M.Nader -DODZ- »

lamo wrote:Jim clark documentary -


Was just about to post it, you beat me to it.

Anyhow great documentary, shows what a class act he was inside and outside of the car.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by Retro-Virus »

Jim Clark.
Clark, Senna, Hamilton

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flavio81
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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by flavio81 »

Fiki wrote:
nike2die4 wrote:
Guia wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:I don't know. Of the ones I've seen race (Mansell, Hill, Hamilton and Button) I'd rate them

Mansell
Hamilton
Button
Hill

Hamilton may well jump to the top of that list in time.

DOL! 8O

Just so as you know, it's...

Mansell
Hill
Hamilton
Button

Although Lewis may well jump to second on that list in time. :]

But all joking aside, it's a remarkably close bunch in terms of ability at any rate. And we can compare them against each other directly as team-mates, and relative to team-mates common to all four: Nigel partenered Damon for a while at Williams, while Damon has partnered JV who partnered Jenson at BAR, now of course partnering Lewis at Team GB.

Anyway. Differing drivers to be sure, and diverging characters it seems. But all four have realised similarly emphatic spates of competitiveness, achieved similar rates of rabbit-from-hat pulling, and showed similar margins of superiority over team-mates - except when they've gone up against each other, that is.

IMO, Hill remains underrated, Mansell a tad lionised, Hamilton polarises with no sane middle ground, and Button shifts public opinion everywhere but where it should be. IMO, the lot of them are comparable with Surtees and/or Hunt, if not Graham Hill himself.

Clark, Moss, and Stewart all clearly on another planet though.

why Hill in 2nd? i maybe playing ignorant here but what has Hill really done to be considered one of the best brit champions?

Won 2 titles against the most successful F1 driver in history. That's not bad going.


And was the only person to have Prost AND Senna as teammates... and performed decently along them.

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Re: Who is/was the best British World Drivers Champion?

Post by AxlPose »

Jim Clark.

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