McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

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zedd
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McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by zedd »

Jun.29 (GMM) McLaren is considering following Ferrari's lead and introducing innovative pull-rod front suspension for its 2013 car.

That is the claim of the Spanish sports daily Marca, citing the information of multiple Italian specialist sources.

Ferrari raised eyebrows early this year when the aggressive F2012 was launched with pull-rod suspension: a configuration not seen since Fernando Alonso raced a Minardi more than a decade ago.

The Italian team's early struggles sparked rumours Ferrari could scrap the experiment, but the subsequent giant strides of progress have now reportedly attracted McLaren technical director Paddy Lowe's attention.

Marca said Lowe "is paying close attention to the front of the Ferrari in his preliminary studies for the MP4-28".

"He understands it could be a good solution in allowing more air to the diffuser".

Ferrari test driver Marc Gene has been driving the F2012 for aerodynamic straightline tests this week at the Idiada facility in Spain.

Team president Luca di Montezemolo said this week Ferrari cannot relax even though Alonso, the only multiple race winner in 2012, is comfortably leading the world championship.

"Yes, I am worried, because I expect three very tough races at Silverstone, Hockenheim and Budapest and because we have seen (at Valencia) that Red Bull is very strong," he said.

"If we want to achieve our goals then we must make a step forward."

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infi24r
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by infi24r »

McLaren are so reactive. It took Red Bull and Ferrari a few races to hit their stride this year but now they are in very good form.

McLaren just waits around to copy other teams, the F duct was their last innovation.

With the lack of proactive management in the aero/development front and the continual stuffups on race day its hard to see them as a true top team this year. It wouldn't surprise me if they finish behind Red Bull, Ferrari AND Lotus this year.

j man
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by j man »

A lot of credit must go to Ferrari for making the pullrod layout work. For the past decade we were that it wasn't possible on the current cars because of the height of the nose, and when Ferrari unveiled the car this year many were sceptical of this solution. When the car was so uncompetitive at the start of the year the front pullrod layout was widely criticised, most likely because it is the most distinctive element of the car that distinguishes it from their competitors, although it is entirely possible that their struggles could have been partially due to the team still learning how to get the most out of the system due to the lack of testing. With the Ferrari now looking pretty handy I imagine a number of teams will be looking at the merits of this layout for next year.

Faisal
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Faisal »

To me it doesn't look Ferrari's pull rod has anything to do with their current improvement. They came up to speed after some aero improvements, mainly exhausts IIRC. Pull rod was a problem initially, solving it did not give any benefits but prevented any failures/mistakes at part of drivers
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RunningMan
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by RunningMan »

I didn't think the pull rod was part of their problems.

It was mainly due to exhausts which they changed in Spain and Canada
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Asphalt_World
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Asphalt_World »

It may be that exhausts and other aero tweeks have helped Ferrari, but the fact remains the car is handling pretty well most of the time and is very good on the tyres.

Therefore although the front setup of the Ferrari may not have suddenly become a huge gain for them, it may be that other teams feel than without it, Ferrari would not be as quick and therefore it is worth investigating.
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TorrentialPace
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by TorrentialPace »

What are the advantages of a pull rod suspension?
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dave_the_fish
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by dave_the_fish »

TorrentialPace wrote:What are the advantages of a pull rod suspension?

Mainly a lower center of gravity, well front suspension that is, for the rear i think mainly airflow.
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RunningMan
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by RunningMan »

TorrentialPace wrote:What are the advantages of a pull rod suspension?


Here's an article on Ferrari's pull rod front suspension. An interesting read.
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TorrentialPace
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by TorrentialPace »

Thanks dudes :thumbup:
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flyboy10
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by flyboy10 »

Just looking at the pull-rod layout,

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2012/0/937.html

I thought this year's stepped noses were because the 'apron' nearer the driver needed to be high to accommodate the suspension's springs and dampers. Since the Ferrari's dampers are set much lower, couldn't they also lower the 'apron' or smooth out the step?

flyer
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by flyer »

dave_the_fish wrote:
TorrentialPace wrote:What are the advantages of a pull rod suspension?

Mainly a lower center of gravity, well front suspension that is, for the rear i think mainly airflow.


The pull-rods get in the way of the air less than the push-rods, IMO.

A few months ago Pat Fry said something like:

"The pull-rod suspension is not that big a deal. It brings a small aerodynamic advantage, and it carries a small weight penalty, but it is low-down, and in the end it was the right thing to do."
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

For the rear end, a pull rod makes sense, it cleans up the back end and aids airflow where it's needed. For the front, it's very debatable whether it's worth it, each system has their own benefits and penalties. It's not that clear-cut. But each team studies each other, and closely examine each innovation, and determine if it's beneficial to their own car. McLaren are just keeping an eye on the Ferrari front suspension, because if it is beneficial, they want to be ready.

infi24r wrote:McLaren are so reactive. It took Red Bull and Ferrari a few races to hit their stride this year but now they are in very good form.

McLaren just waits around to copy other teams, the F duct was their last innovation.

With the lack of proactive management in the aero/development front and the continual stuffups on race day its hard to see them as a true top team this year. It wouldn't surprise me if they finish behind Red Bull, Ferrari AND Lotus this year.


In 2011 McLaren tried a few experimental concepts, and some proved just wrong. That led the team to spending most of the first half of 2011 just fixing the mistake and making the car competitive. In the end, the McLaren was competitive against the Red Bull, but it was a story of too little, too late. But McLaren learned from that hard lesson, and their 2012 car was basically an evolution, and great care was made so that it was immediately competitive from day one. And even now, they are right there in the fight. The car is good, the drivers need to step it up. Button has been in some funk, he is not doing as expected, and that is the main reason why they are second in the manufacturer's title chase. And Hamilton... he has been doing wonderful all season, but chose to do battle with an unstable and unpredictable Maldonado, and that mental error cost him dearly.

Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. But I am also guessing that you completely missed the first pit stop, where the team ripped off a pit stop time of 2.6 seconds, the quickest in Formula One history. Imagine what may have happened if Hamilton had got it right on his second pit stop. Stop blaming the team when there's no longer any grounds for such actions.

McLaren are just as innovative as anyone else, everyone are now studying the McLaren adjustable brake ducting, that allow a team member to change the brake duct during pit stops. If you believe the F-duct was their last innovation, you are sadly out of date.

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WebberFanBoy
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by WebberFanBoy »

can someone explain how Gene is able o drive the F2012 in an aero test? wouldnt that be a breach of the ban on in-season testing?

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Johnston
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Johnston »

WebberFanBoy wrote:can someone explain how Gene is able o drive the F2012 in an aero test? wouldnt that be a breach of the ban on in-season testing?



Straight line testing which they can do a limited amount of times a year.

Basically they can go straight or around a corner that is a certain radius.


Probably going to a certain speed then lifting off to see how long it takes to slow down. Longer it takes the less drag it produces.
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

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callMEcrazy
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by callMEcrazy »

WebberFanBoy wrote:can someone explain how Gene is able o drive the F2012 in an aero test? wouldnt that be a breach of the ban on in-season testing?


That's straight line testing. They are always allowed.
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swillis
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by swillis »

... I could be wrong, but ... could the setup work better with the Pirellis? Ferrari and pretty much every who had pushrod in the rear didn't have a good year getting the power down, was their biggest undoing last year.

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infi24r
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by infi24r »

callMEcrazy wrote:
WebberFanBoy wrote:can someone explain how Gene is able o drive the F2012 in an aero test? wouldnt that be a breach of the ban on in-season testing?


That's straight line testing. They are always allowed.

I remember last year one of the Red Bull drivers tweeted about a sore neck after a straight line test. The tweet was quickly removed.

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infi24r
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by infi24r »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:For the rear end, a pull rod makes sense, it cleans up the back end and aids airflow where it's needed. For the front, it's very debatable whether it's worth it, each system has their own benefits and penalties. It's not that clear-cut. But each team studies each other, and closely examine each innovation, and determine if it's beneficial to their own car. McLaren are just keeping an eye on the Ferrari front suspension, because if it is beneficial, they want to be ready.

infi24r wrote:McLaren are so reactive. It took Red Bull and Ferrari a few races to hit their stride this year but now they are in very good form.

McLaren just waits around to copy other teams, the F duct was their last innovation.

With the lack of proactive management in the aero/development front and the continual stuffups on race day its hard to see them as a true top team this year. It wouldn't surprise me if they finish behind Red Bull, Ferrari AND Lotus this year.


In 2011 McLaren tried a few experimental concepts, and some proved just wrong. That led the team to spending most of the first half of 2011 just fixing the mistake and making the car competitive. In the end, the McLaren was competitive against the Red Bull, but it was a story of too little, too late. But McLaren learned from that hard lesson, and their 2012 car was basically an evolution, and great care was made so that it was immediately competitive from day one. And even now, they are right there in the fight. The car is good, the drivers need to step it up. Button has been in some funk, he is not doing as expected, and that is the main reason why they are second in the manufacturer's title chase. And Hamilton... he has been doing wonderful all season, but chose to do battle with an unstable and unpredictable Maldonado, and that mental error cost him dearly.

Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. But I am also guessing that you completely missed the first pit stop, where the team ripped off a pit stop time of 2.6 seconds, the quickest in Formula One history. Imagine what may have happened if Hamilton had got it right on his second pit stop. Stop blaming the team when there's no longer any grounds for such actions.

McLaren are just as innovative as anyone else, everyone are now studying the McLaren adjustable brake ducting, that allow a team member to change the brake duct during pit stops. If you believe the F-duct was their last innovation, you are sadly out of date.

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good post :thumbup:

ReservoirDog
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by ReservoirDog »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. [/img]


BS. Nothing like that ever happened.

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Johnston
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Johnston »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. [/img]


BS. Nothing like that ever happened.



he jack is debatable. But he did over shoot the marks.
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

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ReservoirDog
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by ReservoirDog »

Johnston wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. [/img]


BS. Nothing like that ever happened.



he jack is debatable. But he did over shoot the marks.


I personally refrain from debating against established facts. You know, like, a video evidence.

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Johnston
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Johnston »

ReservoirDog wrote:
Johnston wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Stuffups on race day? I am guessing you are referring to Hamilton's second pit stop at Valencia, where he overshot the pits and hit the front jack hard enough to trigger the release mechanism. [/img]


BS. Nothing like that ever happened.



he jack is debatable. But he did over shoot the marks.


I personally refrain from debating against established facts. You know, like, a video evidence.



Check the BBC Forum. Watch the video, hard to see but if you keep an eye at the right hand wheel man (Left as you look at the screens) you can see when he moves out of the way enough the Lewis is over the mark.
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by RunningMan »

The Forum will probably be off iPlayer now. It's been 1 week.
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Johnston
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Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Johnston »

RunningMan wrote:The Forum will probably be off iPlayer now. It's been 1 week.



Ok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMIpECXxm3s

Image

different vid than the one I was looking. But the in car shows it too.
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Blinky McSquinty

Re: McLaren considers Ferrari pull-rod for 2013 car

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

swillis wrote:... I could be wrong, but ... could the setup work better with the Pirellis? Ferrari and pretty much every who had pushrod in the rear didn't have a good year getting the power down, was their biggest undoing last year.


In the rear end, the airflow had to flow smoothly over the back end and down to the diffuser. If a car had pushrods, the shocks and other suspension components would have been mounted on top of the gearbox, which have been counter to the desire for clean airflow in that area. But with a rear pullrod, the shocks and stuff are mounted below the gearbox, which is exactly what is wanted in airflow control. So yes, a pushrod in the back was a bad idea in 2011 and 2012, but not for suspension and mechanical grip reasons, but for airflow to the rear end.

Although Hamilton overshot his mark very slightly in his second pit stop, it was a minor error. But that small mistake was enough to trigger the release mechanism in the front jack. For Whitmarsh, two things need to be done. First, the front jack has to be redesigned so it is not as sensitive to a bump, yet work just as quickly. Second, Hamilton (and Button) needs to be reminded to do a little better on hitting his marks. Both can be fixed, and egos and hurt feelings have nothing to do with racing. Just get on with the job.

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