planetf1.com

Exediron wrote:... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Sorry Exed

From the same article:

"former Lotus F1 tester Carmen Jorda and British GT class champion Jamie Chadwick are among the highest-profile names in the initial roster"

Jezza13 wrote:

Exediron wrote:... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Sorry Exed

From the same article:

"former Lotus F1 tester Carmen Jorda and British GT class champion Jamie Chadwick are among the highest-profile names in the initial roster"

Yeah, I saw that, but they don't have to give her a seat! She's still just in the larger pool for now!

I mean, what do Carmen Jorda and Jamie Chadwick have in common? One of them is a champion, and the other... has Carmen Jorda ever won a race? In anything?

Exediron wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Exediron wrote:... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Sorry Exed

From the same article:

"former Lotus F1 tester Carmen Jorda and British GT class champion Jamie Chadwick are among the highest-profile names in the initial roster"

Yeah, I saw that, but they don't have to give her a seat! She's still just in the larger pool for now!

I mean, what do Carmen Jorda and Jamie Chadwick have in common? One of them is a champion, and the other... has Carmen Jorda ever won a race? In anything?

Well what is she even doing throwing her hat into the ring anyway because, as per her wikipedia page, she stated in April 2015 "It's not fair that women have to compete in the same championship as men, because we're never going to become World Champion, and I think women deserve that chance."

So if she has that attitude, why even bother entering if this series is supposed to be a leg up into a mixed competition?

I've still got no idea what this series is supposed to achieve. If the likes of Jorda and Powell are among the highest profile drivers, it's not going to produce anyone good enough even for GP3. Chadwick is the only one who has achieved anything of note and she was only 8th out of 13 drivers who did the whole season in British F3.

Exediron wrote:The W Series has released their 'long list' of potential entries, which they say will be narrowed down to 18 through a 'three-day on-and-off-track trial' among the larger pool.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/14 ... 55-drivers

Out of the lot of them, 5 are former or current champions in some series:

Ayla Agren (F1600 champion)
Jamie Chadwick (GT4 champion)
Sarah Moore (Ginetta Junior champion)
Alice Powell (Formula Renault UK champion)
Carrie Schreiner (Middle East Pro-Am champion)

Obviously, a majority of the most prominent and successful female racing drivers are not on that list. No de Silverstro, no Mann - Sophia Floersch isn't on the list either. There are some drivers who are quite unknown to me, so it is possible that they will manage to discover a new star... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Problem for me is that several of those drivers have peaked already. They've done OK in junior series, managed to go up to the next level . but as all drivers find, it's like a knockout tournament where the further you get the better the competition is and none of them have really done anything to suggest they merit a seat in a higher-level series.

That's where I don't get what this will achieve - what will it prove? If they had won in the series they've done, they would have progressed or hit the same barriers any driver does .

So if they compete at say national level F3 or similar and come say 10th out of a grid of 20, then do this series and win it - what does that prove? It would sadly say more about the drivers they beat.

I feel the idea has some merit if it's an opportunity being afforded to youngsters showing potential in lower series, but not to drivers who have had a fair crack already. I guess the only benefit is they could be regarded a useful benchmark for the younger or less experienced drivers, but if they go on to win, it will devalue the series.

They should instigate almost the opposite of a super-license - limit the applications on age and experience. Otherwise it's just a glorified "come and give it a go" event, not a legit series.

In short, I'm all for the idea of creating something that may make more women try racing, but I'm not convinced this is the best way to do that and it could be quite counter-productive.

DOLOMITE wrote:

Exediron wrote:The W Series has released their 'long list' of potential entries, which they say will be narrowed down to 18 through a 'three-day on-and-off-track trial' among the larger pool.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/14 ... 55-drivers

Out of the lot of them, 5 are former or current champions in some series:

Ayla Agren (F1600 champion)
Jamie Chadwick (GT4 champion)
Sarah Moore (Ginetta Junior champion)
Alice Powell (Formula Renault UK champion)
Carrie Schreiner (Middle East Pro-Am champion)

Obviously, a majority of the most prominent and successful female racing drivers are not on that list. No de Silverstro, no Mann - Sophia Floersch isn't on the list either. There are some drivers who are quite unknown to me, so it is possible that they will manage to discover a new star... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Problem for me is that several of those drivers have peaked already. They've done OK in junior series, managed to go up to the next level . but as all drivers find, it's like a knockout tournament where the further you get the better the competition is and none of them have really done anything to suggest they merit a seat in a higher-level series.

That's where I don't get what this will achieve - what will it prove? If they had won in the series they've done, they would have progressed or hit the same barriers any driver does .

So if they compete at say national level F3 or similar and come say 10th out of a grid of 20, then do this series and win it - what does that prove? It would sadly say more about the drivers they beat.

I feel the idea has some merit if it's an opportunity being afforded to youngsters showing potential in lower series, but not to drivers who have had a fair crack already. I guess the only benefit is they could be regarded a useful benchmark for the younger or less experienced drivers, but if they go on to win, it will devalue the series.

They should instigate almost the opposite of a super-license - limit the applications on age and experience. Otherwise it's just a glorified "come and give it a go" event, not a legit series.

In short, I'm all for the idea of creating something that may make more women try racing, but I'm not convinced this is the best way to do that and it could be quite counter-productive.

I agree with this. The concept of the series should be centered around discovering talented female drivers who haven't had the opportunity (read: funds) to compete at an F3 level before, not finding drivers who already did that and failed to make a mark.

https://www.autosport.com/nascar/featur ... r-champion

Autosport Plus article, so I know not everyone will be able to read it. Here are a few excerpts that hopefully don't break any rules:

Deegan's route to that promising debut began by following her father's path, racing dirt bikes before moving into a successful karting career that yielded several titles.

By 2017, she had already begun the transition into late models as a 16-year-old - the conventional route for an aspiring NASCAR driver to learn asphalt oval racing in old machinery.

But the key moment in her career came from a chance phone call to team owner Lee McCall, asking to test one of his K&N Pro cars.

Deegan impressed McCall enough to earn a chance to drive one of the Toyotas against two-time series champion and Kyle Busch-backed driver Todd Gilliland. By the end of a day's testing, Deegan was lapping quicker than Gilliland.

But she felt that one of the most important moments of her year was taking pole position at Las Vegas, one of the more challenging tracks on the calendar, and a second one at Kern County in the finale.

That meant her season ended with one victory and two near-misses in her five top-five finishes. Deegan finished outside the top 10 just twice in her 14-race K&N Pro Series West season.

Now, Deegan is staying in the series for 2019 for a title bid ahead of what she hopes will lead to a graduation to the Truck Series the following year.

Not a lot of oval racing love here, I know, but certainly relevant to promising up-and-coming female drivers.

Exediron wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:

Exediron wrote:The W Series has released their 'long list' of potential entries, which they say will be narrowed down to 18 through a 'three-day on-and-off-track trial' among the larger pool.

https://www.autosport.com/other/news/14 ... 55-drivers

Out of the lot of them, 5 are former or current champions in some series:

Ayla Agren (F1600 champion)
Jamie Chadwick (GT4 champion)
Sarah Moore (Ginetta Junior champion)
Alice Powell (Formula Renault UK champion)
Carrie Schreiner (Middle East Pro-Am champion)

Obviously, a majority of the most prominent and successful female racing drivers are not on that list. No de Silverstro, no Mann - Sophia Floersch isn't on the list either. There are some drivers who are quite unknown to me, so it is possible that they will manage to discover a new star... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Problem for me is that several of those drivers have peaked already. They've done OK in junior series, managed to go up to the next level . but as all drivers find, it's like a knockout tournament where the further you get the better the competition is and none of them have really done anything to suggest they merit a seat in a higher-level series.

That's where I don't get what this will achieve - what will it prove? If they had won in the series they've done, they would have progressed or hit the same barriers any driver does .

So if they compete at say national level F3 or similar and come say 10th out of a grid of 20, then do this series and win it - what does that prove? It would sadly say more about the drivers they beat.

I feel the idea has some merit if it's an opportunity being afforded to youngsters showing potential in lower series, but not to drivers who have had a fair crack already. I guess the only benefit is they could be regarded a useful benchmark for the younger or less experienced drivers, but if they go on to win, it will devalue the series.

They should instigate almost the opposite of a super-license - limit the applications on age and experience. Otherwise it's just a glorified "come and give it a go" event, not a legit series.

In short, I'm all for the idea of creating something that may make more women try racing, but I'm not convinced this is the best way to do that and it could be quite counter-productive.

I agree with this. The concept of the series should be centered around discovering talented female drivers who haven't had the opportunity (read: funds) to compete at an F3 level before, not finding drivers who already did that and failed to make a mark.

I guess the ones that didn't make a mark can be used as a measure?

Exediron wrote:https://www.autosport.com/nascar/featur ... r-champion

Autosport Plus article, so I know not everyone will be able to read it. Here are a few excerpts that hopefully don't break any rules:

Deegan's route to that promising debut began by following her father's path, racing dirt bikes before moving into a successful karting career that yielded several titles.

By 2017, she had already begun the transition into late models as a 16-year-old - the conventional route for an aspiring NASCAR driver to learn asphalt oval racing in old machinery.

But the key moment in her career came from a chance phone call to team owner Lee McCall, asking to test one of his K&N Pro cars.

Deegan impressed McCall enough to earn a chance to drive one of the Toyotas against two-time series champion and Kyle Busch-backed driver Todd Gilliland. By the end of a day's testing, Deegan was lapping quicker than Gilliland.

But she felt that one of the most important moments of her year was taking pole position at Las Vegas, one of the more challenging tracks on the calendar, and a second one at Kern County in the finale.

That meant her season ended with one victory and two near-misses in her five top-five finishes. Deegan finished outside the top 10 just twice in her 14-race K&N Pro Series West season.

Now, Deegan is staying in the series for 2019 for a title bid ahead of what she hopes will lead to a graduation to the Truck Series the following year.

Not a lot of oval racing love here, I know, but certainly relevant to promising up-and-coming female drivers.

It's great to see. To be honest there's always been a few female drivers in the lower NASCAR formulas. She is getting some good results there so be interesting to see if she can progress further.

So we have a shortlist of 28 drivers for W Series.

I really want to be positive about this but I'm struggling. Let's take a look at the CV's of the selected drivers.

Sarah Bovy (Belgium, 28)
Mostly national level Touring Cars/GT. Belgian Touring Car Champion in 2013 but web suggests that series ended in 2011 so not sure exactly what series it was.
Some good results but not a single full season in single seaters from what I can make out.

Jamie Chadwick (UK, 20)
Some genuine promise; British GT Champion in 2015 and British F3 race winner but finished 8th overall.

Sabre Cook (USA, 24)
Karting and then US F2000 but looks to have placed 29th in 2018

Natalie Decker (USA, 21)
US Stock Cars/Trucks. Looks to be 7th out of 11 drivers doing the full series.

Marta Garcia (Spain, 18)
Good karting results, but dropped by Renault after disappointing season in F4 in '17. Doesn't look like she raced '18

Megan Gilkes (Canada, 16!)
Interesting! Wins and multiple podiums in Formula Vee and F1200.

Grace Gui (China, )
Asian Formula Renault in '17 but no Top 10's. Doesn't look like she raced in '18

Esmee Hawkey (UK, 18)
Since Karts it's been Ginettas then Porsche Carra Cup with 2 podiums last year, but that looks to be pretty much it. No single-seaters

Jessica Hawkins (UK,23)
Since karting, various low level tin-tops. Some wins in "Mini Challenge" in '17 but that's about it.

Shea Holbrook (USA,28)
10 years of touring car/GT type experience, no championships

Francesca Linossi (Italy,26)
Similar career to Holbrook above. Couple of podiums from 10 years racing.

Vivien Keszthelyi (Hungary,18)
"Two-times Hungarian national touring car champion". Hmmm. Mostly Gt/Touring Car but currently racing in F3 Asian Winter Series and not making much of an impression yet.

Emma Kimilainen (Finland,29)
Looked promising with a single-seat career in the late '00s but since then it's been average results in various touring car series. Gap in Cv from 2010-2013.

Natalia Kowalska (Poland, 29)
Not raced since 2011?! 20 races in F2, 3 points.

Stephane Kox (The Netherlands, 25)
Mostly national level tin-tops with little success. ADAC Formel Masters in '13 but 0 pts.

Miki Koyama(Japan, 21)
Japan F3 but 0 pts

Milou Mets (The Netherlands, 28)
Winner in Late Model V8 Oval Series - European stock-cars.Can't find much else.

Sarah Moore (UK,25)
10 years since winning Ginetta jnr, Mini, GT86 etc. Couple of wins.

Tasmin Pepper (South Africa, 19)
Stayed pretty much in SA Formula Volkswagen for several years. Couple of wins.

Vicky Piria (Italy, 25)
Doesn't look to have raced since 2014. No wins/poles/podiums in the years before that.

Alice Powell (UK,26)
10 years in mixed series since leaving karts. Won Formula Renault BARC in 2010 and an Asia F renault series in '14 so must be some talent there but career looks to have tailed off from '14

Gosia Rdest (Poland, 26)
Last 5 years in GT series with no significant success. Did F4 in '13 but no points.

Naomi Schiff (Belgium/South Africa, 24)
6-7 years in various GT type series with no notable results

Shirley Van Der Lof (The Netherlands, 32)
Grandad was an F1 driver! (Google it). Mostly GT series with a few podiums. 3 x wins in an F3 series...10 years ago..

Beitske Visser (The Netherlands, 23)
Another who showed some early promise with wins in ADAC Formula Masters early in her career, but results have tailed off. 13th in Formula V8 3.5 in 2016

Alexandra Whitley (Australia, ?)
Rcaing Ute's in NZ with some wins. No Single Seaters.

Fabienne Wohlwend (Liechtenstein, ?)
Can't find much but finished 35th(!) In Italian F4 in 2016.

Caitlin Wood (Australian)
GT Racing but seems focussed on Enduro


So... what to make of that? What are we looking at?

^^^
I'll re-quote David Coultard's quote regarding this series before I start:

“At the moment, however, women racing drivers tend to reach a ‘glass ceiling’ at around the GP3/Formula 3 level on their learning curve, often as a result of a lack of funding rather than a lack of talent.”

BIB from me.

So included in the top 28 candidates who have the talent to compete fairly with the men at GP3 level & above is a 29 year old who's not raced competitively in 8 years??

This is laughable and makes a mockery of the claims made by those promoting the series.

Based on the contents of the above list, I see no-one here with the CV or skills impressive enough to get anywhere near a GP3 seat let alone anything above with the exception of maybe Gilkes & Chadwick.

We have drivers here who've no chance at all of making it in mixed competition based on their age alone.

We have drivers who didn't race competitively in 2018.

We have drivers competing in basically internationally in-consequential racing series' with mediocre results.

I maintain my position that the lack of female participation in motor sports is not due to financial or gender restrictions but by biological & evolutionary. Women, in general, just aren't as interested in motor sport as men & as a result the talent pool available to identify a female driver with the aptitude & skills set to be competitive in the top echelon of world Motorsport is vastly smaller than the males.

As for Coulthard's claims regarding a financial glass ceiling, the various YDP's would short circuit any financial barrier a girl would have if she displayed the talent & had the results to warrant inclusion in those programs and I believe not 1 of these 28 drivers would even come close to getting a YDP contract based on the info above.


To me at least, this series is tokenistic, ill-conceived & pointless.

Jezza13 wrote: I maintain my position that the lack of female participation in motor sports is not due to financial or gender restrictions but by biological & evolutionary. Women, in general, just aren't as interested in motor sport as men & as a result the talent pool available to identify a female driver with the aptitude & skills set to be competitive in the top echelon of world Motorsport is vastly smaller than the males.

I'd agree to the extent female participation at the higher levels of Motorsport is largely not due to financial restrictions, however to claim biology/evolution as the reason is false
Biology would suggest physical issues, with modern cars I don't see physical restrictions being an issue -power steering and the like negates this.
Evolutionary again suggests something permanently ingrained, I'd say it's more issues with society and upbringing than evolution as evolution would suggest again physical issues as well as possibly mental capacity issues to me.
Society is still largely structured with gender roles engrained in upbringing, even with people who are striving towards equality. Boys tend to be brought up playing with cars, encouraged to do more adventurous things and girls towards dolls, cooking toys etc.
Views have moved faster than society can, more females are being seen in traditional male roles, more men in traditional female roles and more kids playing with a range of toys regardless of gender -there is still however a large gap in this leading to less interest by girls in engineering, Motorsports etc.
That said I don't think Formula W is a good step forward, as others have said lots of these women wouldn't make it with their skills whatever their gender.
Formula W to me is saying that women are not capable of competing on a level playing field with men when I think there is no reason they can't, the money would be better sheet at grass roots encouraging more females to try so we have more chance of finding one that has the talent to succeed

dompclarke wrote:

Jezza13 wrote: I maintain my position that the lack of female participation in motor sports is not due to financial or gender restrictions but by biological & evolutionary. Women, in general, just aren't as interested in motor sport as men & as a result the talent pool available to identify a female driver with the aptitude & skills set to be competitive in the top echelon of world Motorsport is vastly smaller than the males.

I'd agree to the extent female participation at the higher levels of Motorsport is largely not due to financial restrictions, however to claim biology/evolution as the reason is false
Biology would suggest physical issues, with modern cars I don't see physical restrictions being an issue -power steering and the like negates this.
Evolutionary again suggests something permanently ingrained, I'd say it's more issues with society and upbringing than evolution as evolution would suggest again physical issues as well as possibly mental capacity issues to me.
Society is still largely structured with gender roles engrained in upbringing, even with people who are striving towards equality. Boys tend to be brought up playing with cars, encouraged to do more adventurous things and girls towards dolls, cooking toys etc.
Views have moved faster than society can, more females are being seen in traditional male roles, more men in traditional female roles and more kids playing with a range of toys regardless of gender -there is still however a large gap in this leading to less interest by girls in engineering, Motorsports etc.
That said I don't think Formula W is a good step forward, as others have said lots of these women wouldn't make it with their skills whatever their gender.
Formula W to me is saying that women are not capable of competing on a level playing field with men when I think there is no reason they can't, the money would be better sheet at grass roots encouraging more females to try so we have more chance of finding one that has the talent to succeed

When I say biological I don't necessarily mean physical composition but chemical composition.

Males have a different chemical makeup than women and as a result of that difference men & women evolved to perform different roles that compliment each other. That's indisputable. One of the by-products of this variance is that, in the main, males will be attracted to different activities than women. Men tend to enjoy participating in & watching more combative, more competitive & more aggressive pursuits whereas females, in general, tend to prefer less aggressive & combative pursuits. That's not through choice, it's just the way we are.

How many people on this forum actually chose to like motor racing? I didn't. I saw a car race on TV when I was 6 yrs old & it sparked something in me. I didn't chose to like the sport anymore than I can chose to dislike it tomorrow. I wasn't guided towards it by my parents, in fact they were very benign in trying to influence my interests in life. A race just happened to be on TV, I watched it & I was hooked.

I don't know why but there seems to be this huge effort to deny any suggestion that males & females have a natural difference that cannot be changed by any amount of social influence or engineering and that this natural difference means that both sexes generally display different strengths & weaknesses, have different interests & different priorities none of which is result of a conscious choice but instead is a result of our evolutionary development.

Jezza13 wrote:I don't know why but there seems to be this huge effort to deny any suggestion that males & females have a natural difference that cannot be changed by any amount of social influence or engineering and that this natural difference means that both sexes generally display different strengths & weaknesses, have different interests & different priorities none of which is result of a conscious choice but instead is a result of our evolutionary development.

Well, I'm sure the reason would be that a lot of people don't think it's true.

I personally take a viewpoint somewhere in the middle. I do believe that there are fundemental biological differences, and that does extend to things that make up the personality to an extent. But I don't agree that those cannot be changed by, or are even more important to the shaping of an individual than, societal/upbringing pressures the person experiences as an adolescent.

I know women who love competitive, combative sports. I know men who don't. But they're both in the minority, so I do agree with your point about the available pool being so low that we're bound to see a lower quality. A bit like 1930s-era motorsport compared to today.

DOLOMITE wrote:So we have a shortlist of 28 drivers for W Series.

I really want to be positive about this but I'm struggling. Let's take a look at the CV's of the selected drivers.

Sarah Bovy (Belgium, 28)
Mostly national level Touring Cars/GT. Belgian Touring Car Champion in 2013 but web suggests that series ended in 2011 so not sure exactly what series it was.
Some good results but not a single full season in single seaters from what I can make out.

Jamie Chadwick (UK, 20)
Some genuine promise; British GT Champion in 2015 and British F3 race winner but finished 8th overall.

Sabre Cook (USA, 24)
Karting and then US F2000 but looks to have placed 29th in 2018

Natalie Decker (USA, 21)
US Stock Cars/Trucks. Looks to be 7th out of 11 drivers doing the full series.

Marta Garcia (Spain, 18)
Good karting results, but dropped by Renault after disappointing season in F4 in '17. Doesn't look like she raced '18

Megan Gilkes (Canada, 16!)
Interesting! Wins and multiple podiums in Formula Vee and F1200.

Grace Gui (China, )
Asian Formula Renault in '17 but no Top 10's. Doesn't look like she raced in '18

Esmee Hawkey (UK, 18)
Since Karts it's been Ginettas then Porsche Carra Cup with 2 podiums last year, but that looks to be pretty much it. No single-seaters

Jessica Hawkins (UK,23)
Since karting, various low level tin-tops. Some wins in "Mini Challenge" in '17 but that's about it.

Shea Holbrook (USA,28)
10 years of touring car/GT type experience, no championships

Francesca Linossi (Italy,26)
Similar career to Holbrook above. Couple of podiums from 10 years racing.

Vivien Keszthelyi (Hungary,18)
"Two-times Hungarian national touring car champion". Hmmm. Mostly Gt/Touring Car but currently racing in F3 Asian Winter Series and not making much of an impression yet.

Emma Kimilainen (Finland,29)
Looked promising with a single-seat career in the late '00s but since then it's been average results in various touring car series. Gap in Cv from 2010-2013.

Natalia Kowalska (Poland, 29)
Not raced since 2011?! 20 races in F2, 3 points.

Stephane Kox (The Netherlands, 25)
Mostly national level tin-tops with little success. ADAC Formel Masters in '13 but 0 pts.

Miki Koyama(Japan, 21)
Japan F3 but 0 pts

Milou Mets (The Netherlands, 28)
Winner in Late Model V8 Oval Series - European stock-cars.Can't find much else.

Sarah Moore (UK,25)
10 years since winning Ginetta jnr, Mini, GT86 etc. Couple of wins.

Tasmin Pepper (South Africa, 19)
Stayed pretty much in SA Formula Volkswagen for several years. Couple of wins.

Vicky Piria (Italy, 25)
Doesn't look to have raced since 2014. No wins/poles/podiums in the years before that.

Alice Powell (UK,26)
10 years in mixed series since leaving karts. Won Formula Renault BARC in 2010 and an Asia F renault series in '14 so must be some talent there but career looks to have tailed off from '14

Gosia Rdest (Poland, 26)
Last 5 years in GT series with no significant success. Did F4 in '13 but no points.

Naomi Schiff (Belgium/South Africa, 24)
6-7 years in various GT type series with no notable results

Shirley Van Der Lof (The Netherlands, 32)
Grandad was an F1 driver! (Google it). Mostly GT series with a few podiums. 3 x wins in an F3 series...10 years ago..

Beitske Visser (The Netherlands, 23)
Another who showed some early promise with wins in ADAC Formula Masters early in her career, but results have tailed off. 13th in Formula V8 3.5 in 2016

Alexandra Whitley (Australia, ?)
Rcaing Ute's in NZ with some wins. No Single Seaters.

Fabienne Wohlwend (Liechtenstein, ?)
Can't find much but finished 35th(!) In Italian F4 in 2016.

Caitlin Wood (Australian)
GT Racing but seems focussed on Enduro


So... what to make of that? What are we looking at?

I actually know Sarah Moore, Nigel Moore's sister who won Formula Palmer Audi then his money ran out, I will watch just to cheer Sarah on.

Exediron wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:I don't know why but there seems to be this huge effort to deny any suggestion that males & females have a natural difference that cannot be changed by any amount of social influence or engineering and that this natural difference means that both sexes generally display different strengths & weaknesses, have different interests & different priorities none of which is result of a conscious choice but instead is a result of our evolutionary development.

Well, I'm sure the reason would be that a lot of people don't think it's true.

I personally take a viewpoint somewhere in the middle. I do believe that there are fundemental biological differences, and that does extend to things that make up the personality to an extent. But I don't agree that those cannot be changed by, or are even more important to the shaping of an individual than, societal/upbringing pressures the person experiences as an adolescent.

I know women who love competitive, combative sports. I know men who don't. But they're both in the minority, so I do agree with your point about the available pool being so low that we're bound to see a lower quality. A bit like 1930s-era motorsport compared to today.

BIB
So you're suggesting Exed that you believe a persons biological composition can be influenced & modified simply via environmental manipulation?

Jezza13 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:I don't know why but there seems to be this huge effort to deny any suggestion that males & females have a natural difference that cannot be changed by any amount of social influence or engineering and that this natural difference means that both sexes generally display different strengths & weaknesses, have different interests & different priorities none of which is result of a conscious choice but instead is a result of our evolutionary development.

Well, I'm sure the reason would be that a lot of people don't think it's true.

I personally take a viewpoint somewhere in the middle. I do believe that there are fundemental biological differences, and that does extend to things that make up the personality to an extent. But I don't agree that those cannot be changed by, or are even more important to the shaping of an individual than, societal/upbringing pressures the person experiences as an adolescent.

I know women who love competitive, combative sports. I know men who don't. But they're both in the minority, so I do agree with your point about the available pool being so low that we're bound to see a lower quality. A bit like 1930s-era motorsport compared to today.

BIB
So you're suggesting Exed that you believe a persons biological composition can be influenced & modified simply via environmental manipulation?

No, I belive it can be overridden. What distinguishes humans from animals is that we have the requisite level of intelligence to make choice outside our biological parameters.

Sophia Floersch on W Series:

"I agree with the arguments - but it totally disagree with the solution. Women need long term support and trustful partners. I want to compete with the best of our sport. Please compare it with economics: Do we need separate Women Management / Advisory Boards? No. Wrong way."

My opinion is still that the biggest issue for female drivers is not a lack of opportunities but a lack of talent to actually warrant those opportunities. We've seen that in recent years, F1 teams are more than happy to completely overlook results when it comes to giving female drivers roles within their teams. Susie Wolff, Maria de Villota, Carmen Jorda, Simona de Silvestro and most recently Tatiana Calderon, none of them had results that warranted any interest from an F1 team. And I'm sure Sophia Floersch will find herself getting a similar role sooner or later, especially as whatever team gives her it can also highlight how she's a survivor after her massive Macau crash. Yet the excuse that gets banded about is that female drivers aren't getting opportunities, and the W Series would have us believe that an entirely new series is required to ensure the best of the best get the chance they're not getting to reach F2. I just don't buy it. I really don't. So in a way I'm actually looking forward to the W Series providing a better opportunity for the best female driver in the series to potentially reach F2, just so that excuse can be removed.

And FWIW, I do believe a female driver will reach F1 in the next 10/15 years. But it will be because of talent and results, not because of a helping hand like this.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:My opinion is still that the biggest issue for female drivers is not a lack of opportunities but a lack of talent to actually warrant those opportunities. We've seen that in recent years, F1 teams are more than happy to completely overlook results when it comes to giving female drivers roles within their teams. Susie Wolff, Maria de Villota, Carmen Jorda, Simona de Silvestro and most recently Tatiana Calderon, none of them had results that warranted any interest from an F1 team. And I'm sure Sophia Floersch will find herself getting a similar role sooner or later, especially as whatever team gives her it can also highlight how she's a survivor after her massive Macau crash. Yet the excuse that gets banded about is that female drivers aren't getting opportunities, and the W Series would have us believe that an entirely new series is required to ensure the best of the best get the chance they're not getting to reach F2. I just don't buy it. I really don't. So in a way I'm actually looking forward to the W Series providing a better opportunity for the best female driver in the series to potentially reach F2, just so that excuse can be removed.

And FWIW, I do believe a female driver will reach F1 in the next 10/15 years. But it will be because of talent and results, not because of a helping hand like this.

I see the problem as being a driver pool based issue. Cutting out completely the argument of why the female driver pool is so small, we can all agree that it is very small, and that starts at the lowest level. So right now we have a female driver pool that's the equivalent of what existed in maybe the 1950s for men; a few thousand worldwide, of whom most are mediocre and even the best aren't proper F1 level.

The W series - in my opinion - is fatally misguided in several ways, but the most prominent is that it's trying to fix the problem midstream, not at the source. Trying to promote a larger share of the mediocre females currently racing in the feeder series into one series and then promote the winner of that series to F2 is just going to put the best of a mediocre lot into F2. The best female drivers currently racing aren't even interested, making the credibility of the W-series champion low before she's even turned a wheel on track.

What they need to do is the same thing they would need to do if they wanted to increase the number of black drivers: start at the very lowest level, by increasing participation in karting from a young enough age that a genuinely competitive driver could be produced, then perhaps implement some sort of support mechanism to follow the best karters throughout their careers. That's how all of the best racing drivers are produced, and it wouldn't be any different for a female driver.

For the aforementioned example of black drivers, I assume a mix of socioeconomic opportunity and cultural bias towards other sports are the prevailing reason we don't see very many racing. For the females it won't be the socioeconomic factor, but cultural bias towards other activities is certainly a dominant factor.

Exediron wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:My opinion is still that the biggest issue for female drivers is not a lack of opportunities but a lack of talent to actually warrant those opportunities. We've seen that in recent years, F1 teams are more than happy to completely overlook results when it comes to giving female drivers roles within their teams. Susie Wolff, Maria de Villota, Carmen Jorda, Simona de Silvestro and most recently Tatiana Calderon, none of them had results that warranted any interest from an F1 team. And I'm sure Sophia Floersch will find herself getting a similar role sooner or later, especially as whatever team gives her it can also highlight how she's a survivor after her massive Macau crash. Yet the excuse that gets banded about is that female drivers aren't getting opportunities, and the W Series would have us believe that an entirely new series is required to ensure the best of the best get the chance they're not getting to reach F2. I just don't buy it. I really don't. So in a way I'm actually looking forward to the W Series providing a better opportunity for the best female driver in the series to potentially reach F2, just so that excuse can be removed.

And FWIW, I do believe a female driver will reach F1 in the next 10/15 years. But it will be because of talent and results, not because of a helping hand like this.

I see the problem as being a driver pool based issue. Cutting out completely the argument of why the female driver pool is so small, we can all agree that it is very small, and that starts at the lowest level. So right now we have a female driver pool that's the equivalent of what existed in maybe the 1950s for men; a few thousand worldwide, of whom most are mediocre and even the best aren't proper F1 level.

The W series - in my opinion - is fatally misguided in several ways, but the most prominent is that it's trying to fix the problem midstream, not at the source. Trying to promote a larger share of the mediocre females currently racing in the feeder series into one series and then promote the winner of that series to F2 is just going to put the best of a mediocre lot into F2. The best female drivers currently racing aren't even interested, making the credibility of the W-series champion low before she's even turned a wheel on track.

What they need to do is the same thing they would need to do if they wanted to increase the number of black drivers: start at the very lowest level, by increasing participation in karting from a young enough age that a genuinely competitive driver could be produced, then perhaps implement some sort of support mechanism to follow the best karters throughout their careers. That's how all of the best racing drivers are produced, and it wouldn't be any different for a female driver.

For the aforementioned example of black drivers, I assume a mix of socioeconomic opportunity and cultural bias towards other sports are the prevailing reason we don't see very many racing. For the females it won't be the socioeconomic factor, but cultural bias towards other activities is certainly a dominant factor.

BIB is 100% spot on.

Again skipping the "why" argument, if there's any hope to get a female to be competitive in the top level of the sport, they need to start working on the next generation. This generation of female drivers simply does not seem to possess the skill level required to make it all the way.

If the FIA was serious about this, my belief is they should be running promotional activities to attract & keep young female participants engaged in the sport, identify drivers who demonstrate an exceptional level of skill, offer scholarships to financially support them as they rise through the various categories with a view to attracting the attention of F1 teams & their various YDP's.

This series is not the answer to this "problem". It starts at the wrong point and with a group of drivers which does not include the best available.

In regards to having the opportunity/support... I had to read on lots of blogs and site to get the info posted above, and while doing so it was surprising how many of the drivers had also previously benefited from previous schemes supported by FIA Women In Motorsport and similar. Others have been thrown lifelines by friends/families and so on - pretty much the same as you'd read on any young drivers CV.

take some time to read their very well put together newsletters :https://www.fia.com/women-motorsport (see most recent 3 at the bottom).

At a roots level: https://www.fia.com/thegirlsontrack

Jezza13 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Exediron wrote:... just as long as they keep Carmen Jorda well away from the series.

Sorry Exed

From the same article:

"former Lotus F1 tester Carmen Jorda and British GT class champion Jamie Chadwick are among the highest-profile names in the initial roster"

Yeah, I saw that, but they don't have to give her a seat! She's still just in the larger pool for now!

I mean, what do Carmen Jorda and Jamie Chadwick have in common? One of them is a champion, and the other... has Carmen Jorda ever won a race? In anything?

Well what is she even doing throwing her hat into the ring anyway because, as per her wikipedia page, she stated in April 2015 "It's not fair that women have to compete in the same championship as men, because we're never going to become World Champion, and I think women deserve that chance."

So if she has that attitude, why even bother entering if this series is supposed to be a leg up into a mixed competition?

Jorda was apparently on the original list but was a no show. This from her:

""It has been a pleasure for me to help promote a championship for women as W Series during the past months but unfortunately we couldn't find an agreement that could fulfill my sponsors' needs"

DOLOMITE wrote:Jorda was apparently on the original list but was a no show. This from her:

""It has been a pleasure for me to help promote a championship for women as W Series during the past months but unfortunately we couldn't find an agreement that could fulfill my sponsors' needs"

I suspect this is her way of covering for that fact that she didn't have a hope in hell of being selected, personally.

Exediron wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:Jorda was apparently on the original list but was a no show. This from her:

""It has been a pleasure for me to help promote a championship for women as W Series during the past months but unfortunately we couldn't find an agreement that could fulfill my sponsors' needs"

I suspect this is her way of covering for that fact that she didn't have a hope in hell of being selected, personally.

well possibly , but given some of those that DID get through to the next stage I'd say she had a shot. She's certainly had a hell of a lot more single-seater experience than some of those that were chosen.

Meanwhile F1600 champ Agren didn't make the cut here and Poynting unimpressed here

Nice compilation of onboards with Agren in her champion year here


Apparently the judging panel didn't make public the scores/times so competitors are not sure on what basis they did/didn't make the cut.

Also, deeper digging has revealed that DC and Newey are both shareholders in the series but:

"The series is being bankrolled by Scottish businessman Sean Wadsworth, a schoolmate of Coulthard.

It will be overseen by chief executive Catherine Bond Muir, a lawyer and corporate finance banker, who dreamt up the idea while on maternity leave, having had her first baby aged 45."


The winners prize is apparently @ £380,000. For comparison the current FIA Euro F3 Champion gets @ £90k but figures I can trust are hard to find.

Chadwick takes her first single-seater championship (MRF Challenge)

https://www.motorsport.com/indian-openw ... n/4335261/

aice wrote:Chadwick takes her first single-seater championship (MRF Challenge)

https://www.motorsport.com/indian-openw ... n/4335261/

Saw that one. I don't know much about the series, but good on her. She seems like the most promising female driver making her way up through the junior series right now. You'd have to figure she's a strong favorite to win the W series at this (very early) juncture.

Exediron wrote:

aice wrote:Chadwick takes her first single-seater championship (MRF Challenge)

https://www.motorsport.com/indian-openw ... n/4335261/

Saw that one. I don't know much about the series, but good on her. She seems like the most promising female driver making her way up through the junior series right now. You'd have to figure she's a strong favorite to win the W series at this (very early) juncture.

I'd never heard of it before now but great to see. Looking at their site, in previous years Laura Tillet, Tatiana Calderon and Alice Powell all raced in it too. Along with Harrison Newey (won it) , Jake Dennis Mathias Lauda, Freddie Hunt and a certain Mick Schumacher.

Exediron wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:Jorda was apparently on the original list but was a no show. This from her:

""It has been a pleasure for me to help promote a championship for women as W Series during the past months but unfortunately we couldn't find an agreement that could fulfill my sponsors' needs"

I suspect this is her way of covering for that fact that she didn't have a hope in hell of being selected, personally.

The "agreement that could fulfill my sponsor's needs" probably being an agreement that would whitelist her for selection regardless of performance.

If that sounds cynical, it kind of is.

Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

Herb wrote:Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

and that's the dilemma isn't it. Nothing against Calderon but in her 3 years in GP she finished 21st, 18th and 16th...

DOLOMITE wrote:

Herb wrote:Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

and that's the dilemma isn't it. Nothing against Calderon but in her 3 years in GP she finished 21st, 18th and 16th...

And that was after three nothing years in F3. Six seasons without results. She'll be 26 at the start of the F2 season.

I'm all for female drivers getting more opportunities but she clearly hasn't got this one on merit. And while her being in F2 might generate a little exposure and perhaps make a tiny difference at grassroots/karting level (even that is debatable because only proper enthusiasts are going to be watching F2, not casual fans, so the chances of it having any impact on young girls is pretty low), I actually think she's more likely to inadvertently reduce future opportunities for female drivers at a higher level. The biggest concern for me would be that if she's as bad as I would expect her to be, it'll only reinforce the opinion some people have that female drivers cannot compete with male drivers.

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:

Herb wrote:Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

and that's the dilemma isn't it. Nothing against Calderon but in her 3 years in GP she finished 21st, 18th and 16th...

And that was after three nothing years in F3. Six seasons without results. She'll be 26 at the start of the F2 season.

I'm all for female drivers getting more opportunities but she clearly hasn't got this one on merit. And while her being in F2 might generate a little exposure and perhaps make a tiny difference at grassroots/karting level (even that is debatable because only proper enthusiasts are going to be watching F2, not casual fans, so the chances of it having any impact on young girls is pretty low), I actually think she's more likely to inadvertently reduce future opportunities for female drivers at a higher level. The biggest concern for me would be that if she's as bad as I would expect her to be, it'll only reinforce the opinion some people have that female drivers cannot compete with male drivers.

She obviously gets a lot of good backing but I wonder what's in it for her, if she believes she's going to make it to F1 then she's clearly delusional, otherwise is she being paid whilst she's racing, if she is then that's a nice earner for her so why not?

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:

Herb wrote:Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

and that's the dilemma isn't it. Nothing against Calderon but in her 3 years in GP she finished 21st, 18th and 16th...

And that was after three nothing years in F3. Six seasons without results. She'll be 26 at the start of the F2 season.

I'm all for female drivers getting more opportunities but she clearly hasn't got this one on merit. And while her being in F2 might generate a little exposure and perhaps make a tiny difference at grassroots/karting level (even that is debatable because only proper enthusiasts are going to be watching F2, not casual fans, so the chances of it having any impact on young girls is pretty low), I actually think she's more likely to inadvertently reduce future opportunities for female drivers at a higher level. The biggest concern for me would be that if she's as bad as I would expect her to be, it'll only reinforce the opinion some people have that female drivers cannot compete with male drivers.

She obviously gets a lot of good backing but I wonder what's in it for her, if she believes she's going to make it to F1 then she's clearly delusional, otherwise is she being paid whilst she's racing, if she is then that's a nice earner for her so why not?

From a driver POV, this is highly understandable. She gets an opportunity to drive in one of the more high-end single seater series around the world, she would have at least some idea in her mind that if she gets it right she can perform, so of course she takes the opportunity with both hands.

Heck I have no doubt that if her backers would get the budget together for a seat in F1 she'd jump at that opportunity as well.

But clearly it isn't based on talent. I mean, no doubt she can drive, but she isn't at the level required for F1 or even F2.

mds wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jenson's Understeer wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:

Herb wrote:Calderon will be racing in F2 with Arden:

https://www.crash.net/f2/news/913672/1/ ... -bwt-arden

and that's the dilemma isn't it. Nothing against Calderon but in her 3 years in GP she finished 21st, 18th and 16th...

And that was after three nothing years in F3. Six seasons without results. She'll be 26 at the start of the F2 season.

I'm all for female drivers getting more opportunities but she clearly hasn't got this one on merit. And while her being in F2 might generate a little exposure and perhaps make a tiny difference at grassroots/karting level (even that is debatable because only proper enthusiasts are going to be watching F2, not casual fans, so the chances of it having any impact on young girls is pretty low), I actually think she's more likely to inadvertently reduce future opportunities for female drivers at a higher level. The biggest concern for me would be that if she's as bad as I would expect her to be, it'll only reinforce the opinion some people have that female drivers cannot compete with male drivers.

She obviously gets a lot of good backing but I wonder what's in it for her, if she believes she's going to make it to F1 then she's clearly delusional, otherwise is she being paid whilst she's racing, if she is then that's a nice earner for her so why not?

From a driver POV, this is highly understandable. She gets an opportunity to drive in one of the more high-end single seater series around the world, she would have at least some idea in her mind that if she gets it right she can perform, so of course she takes the opportunity with both hands.

Heck I have no doubt that if her backers would get the budget together for a seat in F1 she'd jump at that opportunity as well.

But clearly it isn't based on talent. I mean, no doubt she can drive, but she isn't at the level required for F1 or even F2.

Oh yeah. I mean don't get me wrong, I wouldn't expect her to turn down the opportunity. And I'm sure in her mind she's got the talent to deserve the opportunity, irrespective of a lack of results. It's the same with Carmen Jorda; she probably completely believes she's got the talent to compete in F1. But from a neutral's point of view it's pretty clear that's not the case, and when she inevitably struggles, there are people out there who will use that to support their "women can't compete with men in motorsports" argument.

Yeah and at times like this I always wonder about the mindset of a driver. If I'd done 3 seasons in a Formula and basically come pretty much last , at what point do you think "I think I deserve a crack at the next level up".... Is there genuinely a belief that you can do well against drivers who have already (for the most part anyway) achieved more or are you just thinking it will be fun to have a go. I guess if you believe you've been in a backmarker team you explain away your results that way. Bit like Wolff in DTM.

Article hereon why Calderon deserves the F2 drive.

Whether you think she does or not I don't think it builds a compelling argument. The writer basically cites other drivers at that level that haven't won much at a high level - namely Galeal, Merhi, de Jong. It then cites Calderons achievements which are basically first woman to achieve X or highest placed women in series X.

Well I guess we'll see. Her teammate Hubert, reigning GP3 Champ so should be a pretty good benchmark.

Meanwhile I see Floersch is not a fan of W Series:

"I agree with the arguments - but it totally disagree with the solution. Women need long term support and trustful partners. I want to compete with the best of our sport. Please compare it with economics: Do we need separate Women Management / Advisory Boards? No. Wrong way.
"

DOLOMITE wrote:Whether you think she does or not I don't think it builds a compelling argument. The writer basically cites other drivers at that level that haven't won much at a high level - namely Galeal, Merhi, de Jong. It then cites Calderons achievements which are basically first woman to achieve X or highest placed women in series X.

It's highly debatable that any of those people belong in F2, either.

DOLOMITE wrote:Article hereon why Calderon deserves the F2 drive.

Whether you think she does or not I don't think it builds a compelling argument. The writer basically cites other drivers at that level that haven't won much at a high level - namely Galeal, Merhi, de Jong. It then cites Calderons achievements which are basically first woman to achieve X or highest placed women in series X.

Well I guess we'll see. Her teammate Hubert, reigning GP3 Champ so should be a pretty good benchmark.

Meanwhile I see Floersch is not a fan of W Series:

"I agree with the arguments - but it totally disagree with the solution. Women need long term support and trustful partners. I want to compete with the best of our sport. Please compare it with economics: Do we need separate Women Management / Advisory Boards? No. Wrong way.
"

Well after reading the article I think in an attempt to justify Arden's decision to hire Calderon, the Author, Elizabeth Werth, has actually done her a bit of a disservice. She's for all intents & purposes conceded Calderon is an average driver at best but has countered by saying she's not the first average driver to be signed by a motor sport team so everyone should get over it & pipe down.

It seems even Calderon's supporters end up indirectly criticising her ability.

A fairly average article at best. She even, inexplicably, had to go back 40 yrs to unbelievably accuse a F1 champion of being overrated in a vein attempt to add legitimacy to her flimsy argument.

Kudos to Sophie Floersche for having the right attitude to her career. She seems like a class act.

DOLOMITE wrote:

Exediron wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:Jorda was apparently on the original list but was a no show. This from her:

""It has been a pleasure for me to help promote a championship for women as W Series during the past months but unfortunately we couldn't find an agreement that could fulfill my sponsors' needs"

I suspect this is her way of covering for that fact that she didn't have a hope in hell of being selected, personally.

well possibly , but given some of those that DID get through to the next stage I'd say she had a shot. She's certainly had a hell of a lot more single-seater experience than some of those that were chosen.

Meanwhile F1600 champ Agren didn't make the cut here and Poynting unimpressed here

Nice compilation of onboards with Agren in her champion year here


Apparently the judging panel didn't make public the scores/times so competitors are not sure on what basis they did/didn't make the cut.

Also, deeper digging has revealed that DC and Newey are both shareholders in the series but:

"The series is being bankrolled by Scottish businessman Sean Wadsworth, a schoolmate of Coulthard.

It will be overseen by chief executive Catherine Bond Muir, a lawyer and corporate finance banker, who dreamt up the idea while on maternity leave, having had her first baby aged 45."


The winners prize is apparently @ £380,000. For comparison the current FIA Euro F3 Champion gets @ £90k but figures I can trust are hard to find.

Speaking of Jorda, when and where is the last time she has actually raced anything? Looking at her Instagram, she seems to project an image of active racing driver, but her Wikipedia page states she hasn't been active since 2016.