Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

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TitanMode
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by TitanMode »

I really don't know where all these Button fans suddenly are coming from, really, i have nothing against Button but Button is simply no match for Hamilton, period!. Where was Button the first half of 2011 then when things went fine with Hamilton ?, tell me where was he ?, all Buttons wins was simply because something was happening to Hamilton, for example Canada where Button throws Hamilton in the wall (Button was looking in his mirrors) , Hungry where the team (orded by Withmarsh) put Hamilton on wrong tires, coincidental giving Buttons 200st GP victory. And Japan where Hamilton had a puncture, Withmarsh will do anything to put Button above Hamilton, notice how Withmarsh even brought his daughter to victory ceremony in Canada 2011, i don't trust Withmarsh! and now get real, Hamilton will beat Button with his hands down!

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by mikeyg123 »

f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.

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floydhead
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by floydhead »

My meaningless stat for the day is..... :]

Button outqualified Hamilton 7 times and finished ahead 5 of those times. 71%
Hamilton outqualified Button 13 times and finished ahead 7 of those times 53%

So last year, Button finished ahead of Hamilton when behind him on the grid 47% of the time.

Edit: More stats...

On average JB gained 1.24 places during each race.
On average LH lost 0.2 places during each race.

This excludes races where the driver DNF
Even without Canada and Spa Jenson would still have a 0.33 place gain.
Last edited by floydhead on Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by floydhead »

mikeyg123 wrote:
f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.


Regarding what I've highlighted - I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion? :?
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ReservoirDog
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by ReservoirDog »

dizlexik wrote:Ross Brawn predict that: expecting the tightest start to a season we've seen for a number of years". I'm afraid that rivalry between Button and Hamilton will mean that none of McLaren drivers will win WDC.


You hear this every year - this year is going to be much closer. blah blah. Means nothing really.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by 4Dixie »

I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by mikeyg123 »

floydhead wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.


Regarding what I've highlighted - I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion? :?


Generally last year Hamilton was faster in races, yes. Obviously there are a few exceptions (Suzuka springs to mind) but i think Lewis had Jenson on speed maybe 75% of the time. Usually he ended up behind him due to a mistake rather than inferior speed.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by floydhead »

mikeyg123 wrote:
floydhead wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.


Regarding what I've highlighted - I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion? :?


Generally last year Hamilton was faster in races, yes. Obviously there are a few exceptions (Suzuka springs to mind) but i think Lewis had Jenson on speed maybe 75% of the time. Usually he ended up behind him due to a mistake rather than inferior speed.


I'm sure Button could have gone faster if he wished, however it might have resulted in more mistakes ;)
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formula1fanatic
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by formula1fanatic »

mikeyg123 wrote:
floydhead wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.


Regarding what I've highlighted - I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion? :?


Generally last year Hamilton was faster in races, yes. Obviously there are a few exceptions (Suzuka springs to mind) but i think Lewis had Jenson on speed maybe 75% of the time. Usually he ended up behind him due to a mistake rather than inferior speed.

To say he was 75% of the time quicker is just wrong most of the races there pace in clean air was very close.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by FormulaFun »

floydhead wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
floydhead wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.



I think this sums it up tbh. Hamilton faster Button more consistent. I think it says a lot about how people percieve these drivers that most people would say Hamilton has his worst season and Jenson had his best. And yet Lewis still qualified better, was faster in races, won the same amount of grand prixs and wasn't destroyed in points tally. As for whose better? I don't know but if I was a team boss who had a car that could potentially just scrape a championship if everything is wrung out of it I'd have to pick Hamilton.


Regarding what I've highlighted - I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion? :?


Generally last year Hamilton was faster in races, yes. Obviously there are a few exceptions (Suzuka springs to mind) but i think Lewis had Jenson on speed maybe 75% of the time. Usually he ended up behind him due to a mistake rather than inferior speed.


I'm sure Button could have gone faster if he wished, however it might have resulted in more mistakes ;)


well yeah maybe but that's the point isn't it, Jenson wasn't as fast but more consistent

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by ReservoirDog »

lonix2011 wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:They are both amazing drivers, yes Hamilton has won more races but Button over the last few years has been mighty!

Jenson's problem is qualifying if he can get on top of that he'll be fine, Lewis's problem is sometimes his own race craft, yes he's a very talented driver and one of the best over takers in F1 but some times his overtaking moves go wrong and go against him...

I'm looking forward to their battle this year!

His second half of last year was much better, he had a few times almost out pipped Vettel and/or Lewis.

He even admitted he has changed his driving style to be more aggressive and has improved his qualifying pace. Not only has he actually out done Lewis last season with or without Lewis's problems but he was much closer to Lewis in terms of pace. JB has such amount of experience if JB was a team mate to Alonso I really do wonder who would come out on top. If LH is naturally a tad bit faster then Alonso on a single lap then that would make Alonso/JB a great combo as well.

I honestly do not know who to place a bet on when it comes to JB/LH.



about 30 more races than Alonso, not a whole lot.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by infi24r »

Hamilton's dumb mistakes and constant crashing are allowing Button to beat him. If he can have a consistent season he will be on top.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by garagetinkerer »

I want Button to cream Hamilton... Also, it'd be entertaining to read all Lewis' fans whinge.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by OB1UKAB »

JB2012 wrote:It seems that JB must have to win all 20 races this season to earn respect from all these Hamilton fan boys on here.

JB beat Hamilton fair and square last season. He finished 43 points ahead of him.
And by no stretch of the imagination did Hamilton have an awful season.

1. Buttons form contributed to hamiltons downfall, and then gave his personal life as his excuse 3/4 of the way into the season.

2. Button has proved he is as good as anyone in the dry, and at many a time has proved more than capable of matching Hamilton, for example Monaco, Spain, Japan.

3. All this tosh about Hamiltons pace being miles quicker must stop. He only beat him 12-7 or something in qualifying and at least 5 of those times button was less than a tenth behind.

4. If you want pathetic excuses like Lewis gave, buttons ONLY 2 retirements last season were NOT HIS FAULT. Unlike LH. they could have cost him about 30 points.

5. To the man with the selective memory, Lewis past him once at China, and they both exchanged places at Hungary and Turkey. JB also past Lewis at Japan and Italy, so he infact did not get past JB 7 or 8 times without reply.

6. Jenson is, in my, or any unbiased opinion a more complete driver than Lewis is. And legends in the sport such as Moss, Damon hill and Christian Horner have taken that into account.

COME ON JB, WDC 2012!!

Give these Hamilton fan boys A SECOND CONSECUTIVE slice of humble pie.

Hamilton beat JB in 2010 so that's one season a piece. Professional racing pundits and ex-drivers have widely said LH had a bad season in 2011.

Both drivers have their strong points. But I think you'll have to give them another two seasons in the same team to fairly judge which driver is the better.

Like I said in my previous post if JB has a car to his liking then he is a def contender for WDC. If LH can drop his 'do or die' attitude to racing then he's going to be one of the quickest drivers on the grid.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Johnston »

4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

Johnston wrote:
4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)

It was more Buttons fault, as he run wide in the corner before, he knew Lewis was there, but now with the new rules it should be clear that the defending driver must leave a gap for the overtaking driver when he returns to the racing line.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

garagetinkerer wrote:I want Button to cream Hamilton... Also, it'd be entertaining to read all Lewis' fans whinge.

I want Lewis to destroy Button for the same reasons
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” ― Albert Einstein

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by callMEcrazy »

Let me see if I can call this straight down the line. Both men have won the teammate battle once so lets start fresh and weigh up the pros and cons.

*** Hamilton
- Better quali
- Better starter
- Better overtaker

*** Button
- Better tire management
- Better strategy calls
- Less incident prone

The way I see it if McLaren is 2nd or 3rd fastest, like the last 3 years, then Button has the edge because his qualities are better suited to deal with traffic. Although Hamilton overtakes better he is quite incident prone and that wipes out any advantage he gets from being so good at overtaking.

But if McLaren is the fastest car and the title fight is just down to those 2 guys then I expect Hamilton to come out on top, owing to one quality alone - quali. In that scenario quali is too much of an advantage and Hamilton will probably out sprint Button in clear air.

So the conclusion is that I can see Button beating Hamilton again but I don't see him winning another title.
Last edited by callMEcrazy on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

floydhead wrote:My meaningless stat for the day is..... :]

Button outqualified Hamilton 7 times and finished ahead 5 of those times. 71%
Hamilton outqualified Button 13 times and finished ahead 7 of those times 53%

So last year, Button finished ahead of Hamilton when behind him on the grid 47% of the time.

Edit: More stats...

On average JB gained 1.24 places during each race.
On average LH lost 0.2 places during each race.

This excludes races where the driver DNF
Even without Canada and Spa Jenson would still have a 0.33 place gain.

You calculations are wrong, it were 19 races not 20

Qualy was 13/6
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” ― Albert Einstein

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by ToughGuy »

f1madman wrote:Wow so is it now Lewis fans vs Jenson fans or what?

Anyway I peeked into F1 racing while in WHSmith today and over the last 2 seasons, Lewis has 1 more win (7-6), 2 more poles (2-0) and generally finishes ahead when both finish and in qualy, but Jenson has 20 more points and 5 more podiums (14-9).

Basically Jenson has been more consistent but Lewis is faster, and when doing well enough to get podium... is likely actually getting a win.

Disclaimer: those stats are what I think I remembered they're probably a little wrong.

:lol: yeah Lewis won both titles (didn't really)

Reason for posting, been having similar conversation on a similar thread.

I think Hamilton is going to get his karma together in 2012. And when he does, I think he will take his teammate.

Want to be clear, I'm not a fan of Lewis Hamilton. I'm a fan of his driving because I'm a true f1fan :thumbup:

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by floydhead »

Sabrina wrote:
floydhead wrote:My meaningless stat for the day is..... :]

Button outqualified Hamilton 7 times and finished ahead 5 of those times. 71%
Hamilton outqualified Button 13 times and finished ahead 7 of those times 53%

So last year, Button finished ahead of Hamilton when behind him on the grid 47% of the time.

Edit: More stats...

On average JB gained 1.24 places during each race.
On average LH lost 0.2 places during each race.

This excludes races where the driver DNF
Even without Canada and Spa Jenson would still have a 0.33 place gain.

You calculations are wrong, it were 19 races not 20

Qualy was 13/6


Damn, your right.
Well that's embarrassing.
It took me ages to work that out :uhoh:

The second stat stands though.
Last edited by floydhead on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by jimbo-macca »

Both are fantastic drivers.

As has been said Lewis is faster, Jensons more consistent im a fan of them both. Over a single Lap id put my money on Lewis every day. I personally think that Lewis will out perform Jenson this season. Infact i think that Lewis will outperform all. ( yes i am loooking through my lewis tinted shades ;) )

Anyway roll on Melbourne. Not long now..

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Johnston »

Sabrina wrote:
Johnston wrote:
4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)

It was more Buttons fault, as he run wide in the corner before, he knew Lewis was there, but now with the new rules it should be clear that the defending driver must leave a gap for the overtaking driver when he returns to the racing line.



If he ran wide why was he on the racing line?

And no the new rules wouldn't prevent it as it is if you move to defend. Button got a slow exit but he did not move off the line. Lewis moved off the line to take a lunge up the inside and put himself somewhere he shouldn't have been.

As for someone else said Button was looking in the mirrors. remember according to LEWIS you cannot see anything in the McLaren Mirrors so by Lewis's excuse Button couldn't have seen him and Lewis should have known that :D
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by garagetinkerer »

I sincerely don't understand all this talk about Lewis being great at overtaking. Kimi is mega, Alonso is mega, but Hamilton? The lad sure does try but how many of his moves don't stick? Also, can anyone argue that Massa was in a clearly slower car compared to Macca, and yet he couldn't do it incident free. Lewis is fast (i don't think the fastest out there, but yes fast indeed) i'll agree with that, but erratic as hell.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by formula1fanatic »

Sabrina wrote:
Johnston wrote:
4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)

It was more Buttons fault, as he run wide in the corner before, he knew Lewis was there, but now with the new rules it should be clear that the defending driver must leave a gap for the overtaking driver when he returns to the racing line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRNJJ_hzhoU Listen to anthony davidson explain why button was not at fault and why it was just a racing incident.

lamo

Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by lamo »

floydhead wrote:My meaningless stat for the day is..... :]

Button outqualified Hamilton 7 times and finished ahead 5 of those times. 71%
Hamilton outqualified Button 13 times and finished ahead 7 of those times 53%

So last year, Button finished ahead of Hamilton when behind him on the grid 47% of the time.

Edit: More stats...

On average JB gained 1.24 places during each race.
On average LH lost 0.2 places during each race.

This excludes races where the driver DNF
Even without Canada and Spa Jenson would still have a 0.33 place gain.


Jenson also thrashed Vettel with that statistic too!

Vettel went backwards on average...

oh wait..

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by formula1fanatic »

infi24r wrote:Hamilton's dumb mistakes and constant crashing are allowing Button to beat him. If he can have a consistent season he will be on top.

Everytime lewis and massa had a collision button was already ahead or not in the race so not really true.

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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by minchy »

garagetinkerer wrote:I want Button to cream Hamilton... Also, it'd be entertaining to read all Lewis' fans whinge.

isn't that what happening here?!
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

Johnston wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
Johnston wrote:
4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)

It was more Buttons fault, as he run wide in the corner before, he knew Lewis was there, but now with the new rules it should be clear that the defending driver must leave a gap for the overtaking driver when he returns to the racing line.



If he ran wide why was he on the racing line?

And no the new rules wouldn't prevent it as it is if you move to defend. Button got a slow exit but he did not move off the line. Lewis moved off the line to take a lunge up the inside and put himself somewhere he shouldn't have been.

As for someone else said Button was looking in the mirrors. remember according to LEWIS you cannot see anything in the McLaren Mirrors so by Lewis's excuse Button couldn't have seen him and Lewis should have known that :D

He braked himself out at the corner before and run wide, therefore Lewis had it so easy to make an overtaking attempt.
Button was not on the racing line as Lewis came alongside , he came back to that line as the accident happened and did not realise that Lewis was already there.
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

garagetinkerer wrote:I sincerely don't understand all this talk about Lewis being great at overtaking. Kimi is mega, Alonso is mega, but Hamilton? The lad sure does try but how many of his moves don't stick? Also, can anyone argue that Massa was in a clearly slower car compared to Macca, and yet he couldn't do it incident free. Lewis is fast (i don't think the fastest out there, but yes fast indeed) i'll agree with that, but erratic as hell.

Look at the 2007, 2008 & 2010 overtakings from Lewis
without the gimmicks like KERS & DRS and stronger tyres, there were some outstanding maneuvers like at Australia 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIo3BO9S ... ure=fvwrel
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cdT6Ox5bSc
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Swaf13 »

I totally don't buy into this "Hamilton was suffering all year because Button was beating him, he only brought personal issues in because he was loosing" tosh.

Yes, Button beat Hamilton, he did the better job over the year. He wasn't up until Monaco, he hadn't been doing any better than him, in face had he finished in front of him at all? After Monaco was where it the cracks started to show. I think it was far more a mixture of seeing another WDC slipping away and personal issues.

Button has done an amazing job for McLaren and he is a phenomenal racer, however he didn't thrash Hamilton at his best. If he beats him again this year, i'll be first in line to congratulate him and his fans. I just get the feeling this year that Hamilton beat himself, not Button.

3 wins apiece. The only win we saw them contest was ruined by a penalty. - Hungary. The others: Canada - Hamilton out, Germany - Button out, Japan - Hamilton slow puncture. Abu Dhabi - Button KERS issues. They rarely shared the same bit of track.
You can argue day and night, Button showed his best form of the season late on, which agruably is when it matters. He certainly didn't provide a thrashing though.

I think the reason some Hamilton fans whinge is because Button fans are sick of hearing about how he's no match for Hamilton so they are now sticking it to the guy. Simple facts are he's proved he is. Without the problems on Hamilton's side (which are a justified reason) he beat him on pace in a few races. Likewise Hamilton beat Button a few times on pace. They are more closely matched than people care to admit. I think Hamilton is better than Button but that doesn't make Button any lesser a driver. He's proved that consistency can be better than speed.

Each guy has shaded the other in a few races, and at the moment Button is leading the head to head. Kudos to him, some of the arguments here though are really transparent and clearly shallow attempts to rile a few. Stick to facts and make your opinion known, but keep the vilifying comments to a minimum. It's much more enjoyable that way. That goes to both sets of fans.
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Hamilton - Victory is good for the soul.

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Johnston
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Johnston »

Sabrina wrote:
Johnston wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
Johnston wrote:
4Dixie wrote:I recall Button driving his teammate into the wall in Canada and then acting like "What is Lewis trying to do". He was trying to pass you becouse you are so slow.



you mean the one when one driver dived into an ever shrinking gap?

in a car where according to Lewis you can't see in the mirrors on a clear day never mind one with poor visibility.

so Lewis being in the same car should have known he couldn't be seen in the mirrors and due to the racing line that gap was going to shrink. IMO he's lucky he didn't wipe out both McLarens ;)

It was more Buttons fault, as he run wide in the corner before, he knew Lewis was there, but now with the new rules it should be clear that the defending driver must leave a gap for the overtaking driver when he returns to the racing line.



If he ran wide why was he on the racing line?

And no the new rules wouldn't prevent it as it is if you move to defend. Button got a slow exit but he did not move off the line. Lewis moved off the line to take a lunge up the inside and put himself somewhere he shouldn't have been.

As for someone else said Button was looking in the mirrors. remember according to LEWIS you cannot see anything in the McLaren Mirrors so by Lewis's excuse Button couldn't have seen him and Lewis should have known that :D

He braked himself out at the corner before and run wide, therefore Lewis had it so easy to make an overtaking attempt.
Button was not on the racing line as Lewis came alongside , he came back to that line as the accident happened and did not realise that Lewis was already there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d78axmuMDp8

If Button went wide so did hamilton seeing as he was right below his gearbox the whole way through the corner .

Plus in the dry they virtually touch that wall so if button went wide he would have been out of the race.
Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

JB2012
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by JB2012 »

callMEcrazy wrote:Let me see if I can call this straight down the line. Both men have won the teammate battle once so lets start fresh and weigh up the pros and cons.

*** Hamilton
- Better quali
- Better starter
- Better overtaker

*** Button
- Better tire management
- Better strategy calls
- Less incident prone

The way I see it if McLaren is 2nd or 3rd fastest, like the last 3 years, then Button has the edge because his qualities are better suited to deal with traffic. Although Hamilton overtakes better he is quite incident prone and that wipes out any advantage he gets from being so good at overtaking.

But if McLaren is the fastest car and the title fight is just down to those 2 guys then I expect Hamilton to come out on top, owing to one quality alone - quali. In that scenario quali is too much of an advantage and Hamilton will probably out sprint Button in clear air.

So the conclusion is that I can see Button beating Hamilton again but I don't see him winning another title.

JB2012
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by JB2012 »

How is Hamilton a better over taker?! That's just close minded nonsense. Button overtook double the amount of cars than Hamilton last year, and he has been overtaking brilliantly all through his career. It's only because Hamilton has been in a leading car that we see his overtakes.
callMEcrazy wrote:Let me see if I can call this straight down the line. Both men have won the teammate battle once so lets start fresh and weigh up the pros and cons.

*** Hamilton
- Better quali
- Better starter
- Better overtaker

*** Button
- Better tire management
- Better strategy calls
- Less incident prone

The way I see it if McLaren is 2nd or 3rd fastest, like the last 3 years, then Button has the edge because his qualities are better suited to deal with traffic. Although Hamilton overtakes better he is quite incident prone and that wipes out any advantage he gets from being so good at overtaking.

But if McLaren is the fastest car and the title fight is just down to those 2 guys then I expect Hamilton to come out on top, owing to one quality alone - quali. In that scenario quali is too much of an advantage and Hamilton will probably out sprint Button in clear air.

So the conclusion is that I can see Button beating Hamilton again but I don't see him winning another title.

mikeyg123
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by mikeyg123 »

garagetinkerer wrote:I sincerely don't understand all this talk about Lewis being great at overtaking. Kimi is mega, Alonso is mega, but Hamilton? The lad sure does try but how many of his moves don't stick? Also, can anyone argue that Massa was in a clearly slower car compared to Macca, and yet he couldn't do it incident free. Lewis is fast (i don't think the fastest out there, but yes fast indeed) i'll agree with that, but erratic as hell.


I agree with you in away in that Hamilton can not be classed as a great over taker, and in my opinion he is not as good as Jenson in this area as he does end up in an awful lot of incidents. However Lewis does put in a hell of a lot of successful moves to, probably more than anyone else. Remember China? Germany 08 etc. This is a side issue but i have never thought of Kimi as somebody who makes a lot of moves (with the exception of his quite brilliant performance in Suzuka) I remember back in the mid noughtys i used to get frustrated with him because he would just sit behind people and play the waiting game. Probably the best way to play it but not the most fun to watch!

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f1madman
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by f1madman »

Am I reading this right?

Hamilton IS a great overtaker, yeah last year some of his moves didn't work out and most of them was Massa related.

However he still came up with some excellent overtakes in places barely anyone tries! He gives it a go and MOST of the time it pays off, and has done since 2007. The only driver that is as exciting to watch overtaking is Kobayashi who also lynches people in unexpected places.


f1madman wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17243875

The video showing the best overtakes of 2011... Most featured driver? Hamilton.
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ATM2
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by ATM2 »

Well, yeah, from this point of view Hamilton is a daredevil, he has that amount of craziness to try things that probably Button will not try unless having a gun to his head.
But, I guess it's like in poker, if you bluff it and it works you take the pot - if you're called, then you blew it and you pay with a pair of eights. Last year seems much more overtaking maneuvers were called a bluff (by Massa and others, even Button) - so...that's racing, sometimes it works by force, sometimes it takes strategy and patience. Last year it took patience.

And again, I must repeat myself that only the result counts and it prevails to any other excuses we might find (well, excepting the gentleman driving). I've said it on other threads as well -in 15 years nobody will remember the small details.
For the history, the 1999 champion was Mika Hakkinen and this is what it will count. Hardly anybody remembers that in fact the title was a cinch-to-be for Schumacher until his accident, and that even Irvine was nearly a champion that year, and that Coulthard backed the Finn however he could. NO, at the end of the year statistics said it was Hakkinen, period, and that was it. Similarly, people will not remember that in Austrialia...or Canada...or Spa...or whatever...Hamilton or Alonso or Webber was the fastest and he wiped the floor with the competition - until they crashed or the team blew it. As long as they didn't win and finished a distant 8th...or that Button was a back-marker but finished 3rd due to other people crashing...then this is what it will be remembered: 3rd place or 8th place, this is what counts for the championship table and for the points.
(boy, do I sound gritty).
Olivier Panis fan.
...and also Jenson Button fan.

garagetinkerer
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by garagetinkerer »

Sabrina wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:I sincerely don't understand all this talk about Lewis being great at overtaking. Kimi is mega, Alonso is mega, but Hamilton? The lad sure does try but how many of his moves don't stick? Also, can anyone argue that Massa was in a clearly slower car compared to Macca, and yet he couldn't do it incident free. Lewis is fast (i don't think the fastest out there, but yes fast indeed) i'll agree with that, but erratic as hell.

Look at the 2007, 2008 & 2010 overtakings from Lewis
without the gimmicks like KERS & DRS and stronger tyres, there were some outstanding maneuvers like at Australia 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIo3BO9S ... ure=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt2FCWor ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6kCpitU ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja8Gt1du ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cdT6Ox5bSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uk-35dT ... re=related


His style is to basically throw the car in what is many a times a non-existing gap and hope that the other driver isn't too hard on him. Case in point is your posted video of his overtake of Kimi. Notice how Kimi suddenly darts to the left... it is called getting a car home and not let others ruin your race. Had Kimi stuck it out, it would have been a "Massa". A "Massa" is where a "wooden eye" (Kimi's words) ruins your race. Let us go back to how Lewis earned that remark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCsG0DlXkU
Let me refresh your memory... that is from Canada 2008. This is what Lewis does with the fastest car on the grid. That year's championship should never have been so tight. He won it on the last lap, heck on the last corner and that was thanks to another car failing to finish. That's dumb luck and not talent, and which is why i do not rate Lewis very highly as a champion. You may have your reasons. When he wins in a championship in less than the best car (like Kimi in '07) on the grid i will eat my hat, but till then, it is sitting pretty atop my head. The odds of that happening aren't that great honestly.

minchy wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:I want Button to cream Hamilton... Also, it'd be entertaining to read all Lewis' fans whinge.

isn't that what happening here?!

I meant humiliate... AGAIN! His fans bring out something devilish in me :P
My Top 5 drivers of all times:
1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"

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Sabrina
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by Sabrina »

garagetinkerer wrote:
Sabrina wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:I sincerely don't understand all this talk about Lewis being great at overtaking. Kimi is mega, Alonso is mega, but Hamilton? The lad sure does try but how many of his moves don't stick? Also, can anyone argue that Massa was in a clearly slower car compared to Macca, and yet he couldn't do it incident free. Lewis is fast (i don't think the fastest out there, but yes fast indeed) i'll agree with that, but erratic as hell.

Look at the 2007, 2008 & 2010 overtakings from Lewis
without the gimmicks like KERS & DRS and stronger tyres, there were some outstanding maneuvers like at Australia 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIo3BO9S ... ure=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt2FCWor ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6kCpitU ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja8Gt1du ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cdT6Ox5bSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uk-35dT ... re=related


His style is to basically throw the car in what is many a times a non-existing gap and hope that the other driver isn't too hard on him. Case in point is your posted video of his overtake of Kimi. Notice how Kimi suddenly darts to the left... it is called getting a car home and not let others ruin your race. Had Kimi stuck it out, it would have been a "Massa". A "Massa" is where a "wooden eye" (Kimi's words) ruins your race. Let us go back to how Lewis earned that remark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnCsG0DlXkU
Let me refresh your memory... that is from Canada 2008. This is what Lewis does with the fastest car on the grid. That year's championship should never have been so tight. He won it on the last lap, heck on the last corner and that was thanks to another car failing to finish. That's dumb luck and not talent, and which is why i do not rate Lewis very highly as a champion. You may have your reasons. When he wins in a championship in less than the best car (like Kimi in '07) on the grid i will eat my hat, but till then, it is sitting pretty atop my head. The odds of that happening aren't that great honestly.

minchy wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:I want Button to cream Hamilton... Also, it'd be entertaining to read all Lewis' fans whinge.

isn't that what happening here?!

I meant humiliate... AGAIN! His fans bring out something devilish in me :P

Eat your hat, McLaren 2008 was not the best car on the grid (it was Ferrari)
And like it or not Lewis is one of the best overtakers ever.
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” ― Albert Einstein

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schnitt
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Re: Hamilton vs Button 2012 (Championship Edition)

Post by schnitt »

Johnston wrote:
lamo wrote:Lewis has his worst season ever and well below par...
Jenson has his best season ever...

Speak volumes of their respective talents when you look at the statistics.

Qualifying:
Hamilton 12
Button 7

Ahead when both finished:
Hamilton 7
Button 7



There is one important stat missing.

How many times did Button DNF through driver error. How many times did Lewis?

A season is over 20 races winning 10 is no good if you don't finish the rest and your competitor scores good points at every race.


You don't know Lewis. Lewis said he is in F1 to beat records. Every 1rst position in qualifying and every 1rst position after a race and every fastest lap per race counts toward his overall statistics. He doesnt care for getting a few points every race, he wants a 1rst on every race. He knew DWC was lost so he pushed as much as he could to get 1rst place often costing him a DNF.

Button is a stable performer, you know what to expect from him which is why he is "boring" to watch. Hamilton puts on a show and you never know what he will do, even if crashing is an option.

As a viewer, you can't say watching Button is more entertaining than Hamilton. Button is there to provide points for McLaren to win the Constructors championship, Lewis is there to get Drivers Championship and 1rst position as many times as his car will allow him to.

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