planetf1.com

What is happening with Danny Ric, not feeling the love at McLaren, or just not up to scratch. He's being soundly beaten by Norris, when I realistically thought it would be the other way around.

He was pretty solid in the race. He's badly lacking one-lap pace so far, but he hasn't been hopeless.

Remember that when Dan switched to Renault he was also a bit slow to begin with, but he got past that and started to dominate Hulk (and later Ocon). I'd give him some more time, but also we should remember that Lando is a pretty handy driver. Consider how Sainz is comparing to Leclerc right now, also being new to the team.

I think as good as these guys are, to find that final couple of tenths, you have to be 100% confortable in the car. If you are still figurinh a few things out, getting that last bit of feel, you will not be at your quickest.

I'm hoping it's just a settling in thing, I highly rate Danny - but the body language in and out of the car just doesn't look right. Also have to say Norris has even upped his game on last year, really looking good.

yodasarmpit wrote: ↑

Mon May 03, 2021 10:10 am

I'm hoping it's just a settling in thing, I highly rate Danny - but the body language in and out of the car just doesn't look right. Also have to say Norris has even upped his game on last year, really looking good.

Yeah I believe Norris has upped his game and he needed to if he has ambitions to be world champion, with Ricciardo we have to remember that early on at Renault he was 3 tenths slower than the Hulk but this got somewhat masked by the Hulk having issues with his car.

I think without doubt Ricciardo will improve however I'm not so sure he will turn the tables on Norris like he did with the Hulk.

yodasarmpit wrote: ↑

Mon May 03, 2021 10:10 am

I'm hoping it's just a settling in thing, I highly rate Danny - but the body language in and out of the car just doesn't look right. Also have to say Norris has even upped his game on last year, really looking good.

Ricciardo also struggled in his first half season with Renault.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon May 03, 2021 3:03 pm

yodasarmpit wrote: ↑

Mon May 03, 2021 10:10 am

I'm hoping it's just a settling in thing, I highly rate Danny - but the body language in and out of the car just doesn't look right. Also have to say Norris has even upped his game on last year, really looking good.

Ricciardo also struggled in his first half season with Renault.

It actually only lasted 3 races.

Ouch. That will have hurt. Come Ricciardo, Norris is good, but this gap is not representative.

I am hoping McLaren find something amiss with Daniel's car.

Lando is good, but he's not a second faster than Ricciardo. That is a massive gap and can't be explained by settling in or driver skill.

oz_karter wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 10:50 pm

I am hoping McLaren find something amiss with Daniel's car.

Lando is good, but he's not a second faster than Ricciardo. That is a massive gap and can't be explained by settling in or driver skill.

I think it can be explained to a certain extent by settling in. I agree with you that it's absolutely not the true gap, however.

On the other hand, Dan was legitimately quicker than Norris just the last race weekend, in Spain. It's baffling how he suddenly went to being so far off at a track he usually enjoys, so you may be on to something.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon May 24, 2021 1:21 am

oz_karter wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 10:50 pm

I am hoping McLaren find something amiss with Daniel's car.

Lando is good, but he's not a second faster than Ricciardo. That is a massive gap and can't be explained by settling in or driver skill.

I think it can be explained to a certain extent by settling in. I agree with you that it's absolutely not the true gap, however.

On the other hand, Dan was legitimately quicker than Norris just the last race weekend, in Spain. It's baffling how he suddenly went to being so far off at a track he usually enjoys, so you may be on to something.

Well maybe, maybe not, apparently Norris damaged his car in qualifying and it's very hard to pass at Barcelona.

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

We're just 5 races into the season, I think it's far too soon to be thinking we are seeing career defining moments.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

Yeah I can't see that happening - certainly hope not. I'm just thinking Ricciardos stock was really high generally going into this season, despite a lack of top-line results due to his car. He seems to be rated up there as best of the rest after the holy trinity of HAM/VER/LEC. But if he can't at least get on a par with Lando that would change.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I agree with you that's how it should be. In practice I think the quality of the car effects people's perception a lot more. If Norris is hammering Ricciardo but only scoring occasional points because the McLaren is slow people won't be willing to put him on the top tier. If he's beating Ricciardo by less but in the fastest car and winning the WDC then he will be rated as a top driver.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:47 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I agree with you that's how it should be. In practice I think the quality of the car effects people's perception a lot more. If Norris is hammering Ricciardo but only scoring occasional points because the McLaren is slow people won't be willing to put him on the top tier. If he's beating Ricciardo by less but in the fastest car and winning the WDC then he will be rated as a top driver.

I'm not so sure, Leclerc was getting a lot of credit for what he was doing in that tank called a Ferrari, some good races and the anillation of Vettel, but I guess you're talking about being in even a worse car then that, Russell doesn't seem to get a bad press despite driving that dog of a Williams.

Like Leclerc in 2019 I think that Norris is establishing his reputation this season and then people will make allowance for him being in a bad car, Alonso didn't lose reputation during his McLaren Honda years this even despite not beating Button in 2015.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 2:07 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:47 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I agree with you that's how it should be. In practice I think the quality of the car effects people's perception a lot more. If Norris is hammering Ricciardo but only scoring occasional points because the McLaren is slow people won't be willing to put him on the top tier. If he's beating Ricciardo by less but in the fastest car and winning the WDC then he will be rated as a top driver.

I'm not so sure, Leclerc was getting a lot of credit for what he was doing in that tank called a Ferrari, some good races and the anillation of Vettel, but I guess you're talking about being in even a worse car then that, Russell doesn't seem to get a bad press despite driving that dog of a Williams.

Like Leclerc in 2019 I think that Norris is establishing his reputation this season and then people will make allowance for him being in a bad car, Alonso didn't lose reputation during his McLaren Honda years this even despite not beating Button in 2015.

Russell isn't rated top tier. Norris already had that 2019 season where he could compete for regular wins. Alonso had years of running at the top.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I think a problem with this logic is that it seems to assume every driver drives at a constant level. For whatever reason, Ricciardo could be underperforming this year. If Ricciardo is underperforming, then it could possible that Norris is driving at the same level as last year, we just don't know.

It seems clear at least one of Ricciardo and Norris has changed their level since last year. It could even be that both have changed their level. But I can't see how we can assume that Ricciardo must be at the same level, allowing us to assume Norris is now at a new level.

Until we can be confident we know the level Ricciardo is in at in comparison with previous years, it is difficult to use him as a yardstick for Norris.

iano wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 8:03 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I think a problem with this logic is that it seems to assume every driver drives at a constant level. For whatever reason, Ricciardo could be underperforming this year. If Ricciardo is underperforming, then it could possible that Norris is driving at the same level as last year, we just don't know.

It seems clear at least one of Ricciardo and Norris has changed their level since last year. It could even be that both have changed their level. But I can't see how we can assume that Ricciardo must be at the same level, allowing us to assume Norris is now at a new level.

Until we can be confident we know the level Ricciardo is in at in comparison with previous years, it is difficult to use him as a yardstick for Norris.

I don't think that is clear especially with Sainz doing well against Leclerc. I think Norris is a quality driver who going into his third season has likely improved a little and Dan is adjusting to his new team. I'd expect Ricciardo to start closing the gap to Norris.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 8:23 am

iano wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 8:03 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I think a problem with this logic is that it seems to assume every driver drives at a constant level. For whatever reason, Ricciardo could be underperforming this year. If Ricciardo is underperforming, then it could possible that Norris is driving at the same level as last year, we just don't know.

It seems clear at least one of Ricciardo and Norris has changed their level since last year. It could even be that both have changed their level. But I can't see how we can assume that Ricciardo must be at the same level, allowing us to assume Norris is now at a new level.

Until we can be confident we know the level Ricciardo is in at in comparison with previous years, it is difficult to use him as a yardstick for Norris.

I don't think that is clear especially with Sainz doing well against Leclerc. I think Norris is a quality driver who going into his third season has likely improved a little and Dan is adjusting to his new team. I'd expect Ricciardo to start closing the gap to Norris.

Hmmm... you feel it is not clear that at least one of Ricciardo and Norris has changed their level since last year?
But you think Norris has improved, but has done so while remaining at the at the exact same level as last year? I am missing something in what you are saying there..... probably the fault is that what I was trying to say was unclear. Anyway.

I feel your analysis that Norris is up on last year, and Riccardo may be down a little due to adjusting to the new car sounds very likely spot on. But this would mean the performances of both, so far at least, are different from their levels last year.... Riccardo, at least so far, would be below level demonstrated last year because he is adjusting, and Norris above last year level having improved.

If that is true, and I think it likely, the question as to how much Norris has improved, will be difficult to answer until we feel Ricciardo has completed his adjusting.

I feel that while those who should be experts find Ricciardo's results so far "very weird", it is too early to be able to use performance relative Ricciardo to judge how well Norris is driving. I agree Norris has most likely lifted his level, I just do not feel I can base that opinion on performance relative to Ricciardo, as I suspect Ricciardo is not yet showing his true level.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

That's a very fair point. Norris stock has certainly risen so far this year and the fact that's he's doing well against a known-quantity teammate is a big part of that.

But I guess to a lesser extent it still "devalues" Ricciardo. It doesn't make him less of a driver, but it does mean there are other (younger) drivers available at that level and as soon as the teams have options you are not in the position you were. If Ricciard was seen as best of the rest, that may now become a group of him, Norris and Sainz for example.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 6:04 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 2:07 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:47 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I agree with you that's how it should be. In practice I think the quality of the car effects people's perception a lot more. If Norris is hammering Ricciardo but only scoring occasional points because the McLaren is slow people won't be willing to put him on the top tier. If he's beating Ricciardo by less but in the fastest car and winning the WDC then he will be rated as a top driver.

I'm not so sure, Leclerc was getting a lot of credit for what he was doing in that tank called a Ferrari, some good races and the anillation of Vettel, but I guess you're talking about being in even a worse car then that, Russell doesn't seem to get a bad press despite driving that dog of a Williams.

Like Leclerc in 2019 I think that Norris is establishing his reputation this season and then people will make allowance for him being in a bad car, Alonso didn't lose reputation during his McLaren Honda years this even despite not beating Button in 2015.

Russell isn't rated top tier. Norris already had that 2019 season where he could compete for regular wins. Alonso had years of running at the top.

That's because he's not had a decent teammate to compare against even then it's not done him a lot of harm.

I think with Norris you mean podiums and not wins, the bottom line is that he got beat by Sainz, beating Ricciardo this year is clearly a step up from the last 2 years, that's the main factor the podiums are a nice extra.

If he builds his reputation around beating Ricciardo then that can stave off a few bad cars.

iano wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 8:03 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

I think a problem with this logic is that it seems to assume every driver drives at a constant level. For whatever reason, Ricciardo could be underperforming this year. If Ricciardo is underperforming, then it could possible that Norris is driving at the same level as last year, we just don't know.

It seems clear at least one of Ricciardo and Norris has changed their level since last year. It could even be that both have changed their level. But I can't see how we can assume that Ricciardo must be at the same level, allowing us to assume Norris is now at a new level.

Until we can be confident we know the level Ricciardo is in at in comparison with previous years, it is difficult to use him as a yardstick for Norris.

You're replying to my post were I said we can make such a determination if Norris is still beating Ricciardo after 3 years as teammates, I wasn't offering a short term verdict of who is the better driver between Norris and Ricciardo.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Fri May 28, 2021 9:19 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Thu May 27, 2021 12:29 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 11:09 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:47 am

Just thinking about Ricciardos age and the contract/driver market. If he can't get up to Landos current level this could be a career-ending move. I think the contract is through to 23 so the pressure isn't immediate but if next time Ricciardo is on the market he is 34 (I think) and has been spanked by a younger less experienced driver he won't be on the shopping list of any top teams. Come on DR!

If he's spanked for 3 years solid then maybe. Kind of depends on how Norris is rated as well. That really depends on the car McLaren deliver in 2022.

At this moment I think Norris has a fluid rating because of his age and inexperience, ultimately after 3 years if Norris is still beating Ricciardo that shouldn't down rate Ricciardo but uprate Norris, it was thought that only a tier 1 driver could beat Ricciardo, that would be how we would have to rate Norris.

That's a very fair point. Norris stock has certainly risen so far this year and the fact that's he's doing well against a known-quantity teammate is a big part of that.

But I guess to a lesser extent it still "devalues" Ricciardo. It doesn't make him less of a driver, but it does mean there are other (younger) drivers available at that level and as soon as the teams have options you are not in the position you were. If Ricciard was seen as best of the rest, that may now become a group of him, Norris and Sainz for example.

Yeah I guess it puts Ricciardo one place further down the pecking order, I guess what I meant is that if Norris comes out on top during their time as teammates we can't be down rating Ricciardo in order to also down rate what Norris achieves against Ricciardo.

Interesting article here

Short version - we've made a fast car, now it's over to the driver to figure out how to drive it as fast as we know it can go. Can't really argue with that.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:43 am

Interesting article here

Short version - we've made a fast car, now it's over to the driver to figure out how to drive it as fast as we know it can go. Can't really argue with that.

One part of that stands out to me, and is in keeping with something I've said a bunch of times. Drivers simply don't get enough practice anymore, and it's a huge impediment to transferring teams.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:55 am

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:43 am

Interesting article here

Short version - we've made a fast car, now it's over to the driver to figure out how to drive it as fast as we know it can go. Can't really argue with that.

One part of that stands out to me, and is in keeping with something I've said a bunch of times. Drivers simply don't get enough practice anymore, and it's a huge impediment to transferring teams.

Exactly. No amount of sim-racing will ever give them the real feel of the car

brutal but fair enough tbh - the designers/engineers have done what they are paid to do - now over to the driver to do his bit. He's paid enough to make it a fair expectation.

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I don't know, I think there's a difference. You can apply the pressure smoothly and firmly to a point where X amount of pressure is applied, or you can stamp on it and end up with the same pressure. Watching Ricciardo's late-braking moves, my amazement isn't that he's managed to slow the car, it's that he's managed to slow it but still has enough control to steer into the corner without any drama. It's not like there's massive lock-ups or him steaming in on opp lock Piquet style. That suggests to me he is very progressive with the application.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I'd consider aggressive braking to be braking hard on the initial phase/bite then easing pressure relative to traction. Some (maybe even most) drivers braking style may be more progressive - scrubbing less speed in the initial phase but braking gradually harder relative to the limit of traction as speed is scrubbed. The former probably being marginally faster, the latter more consistent.

It is different when you are overtaking a car though as that car can become your brake marker.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:04 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I don't know, I think there's a difference. You can apply the pressure smoothly and firmly to a point where X amount of pressure is applied, or you can stamp on it and end up with the same pressure. Watching Ricciardo's late-braking moves, my amazement isn't that he's managed to slow the car, it's that he's managed to slow it but still has enough control to steer into the corner without any drama. It's not like there's massive lock-ups or him steaming in on opp lock Piquet style. That suggests to me he is very progressive with the application.

Possibly, I mean it is something that telemetry would show, when he applies the brakes. It doesn't appear that he stomps on it, I think it is an art! But it also begs the question what Macca mean with that statement, they want the drivers to stomp on the brakes?

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:07 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I'd consider aggressive braking to be braking hard on the initial phase/bite then easing pressure relative to traction. Some (maybe even most) drivers braking style may be more progressive - scrubbing less speed in the initial phase but braking gradually harder relative to the limit of traction as speed is scrubbed. The former probably being marginally faster, the latter more consistent.

It is different when you are overtaking a car though as that car can become your brake marker.

I believe that in F1 (or other high downforce cars), almost every driver begins with 100% braking and bleeds off the pressure as the downforce decreases. It's simply the fastest way to brake when you have downforce. Locking a tyre in the initial braking phase is virtually impossible, and becomes easier the slower you go -- almost opposite of a normal car.

I'm also surprised that they identify Ricciardo as a non-aggressive braker, but it's been obvious that braking is a huge part of his driving style since his first season at Renault. It took him a while to adjust to the brakes there, as well.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:04 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I don't know, I think there's a difference. You can apply the pressure smoothly and firmly to a point where X amount of pressure is applied, or you can stamp on it and end up with the same pressure. Watching Ricciardo's late-braking moves, my amazement isn't that he's managed to slow the car, it's that he's managed to slow it but still has enough control to steer into the corner without any drama. It's not like there's massive lock-ups or him steaming in on opp lock Piquet style. That suggests to me he is very progressive with the application.

Apparently a trait of the Red Bull car is carrying high corner entry speed so what we saw with Ricciardo perhaps wasn't late braking as such but just the ability of the car to go into the corner much quicker.

Badgeronimous wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:07 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:53 pm

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am

Having read the article, one thing strikes me in the beginning. They mention that Daniel does not like the aggressive braking; how can that be? He's the king of late braking, surely that means he's hard on the brakes when needed. Am I reading this wrong?

Good spot. But I guess late braking doesn't necessarily mean hard/aggressive?

I would think that it means very hard braking, exactly the opposite, but I am not sure. Maybe they mean under normal circumstances, who knows.

I'd consider aggressive braking to be braking hard on the initial phase/bite then easing pressure relative to traction. Some (maybe even most) drivers braking style may be more progressive - scrubbing less speed in the initial phase but braking gradually harder relative to the limit of traction as speed is scrubbed. The former probably being marginally faster, the latter more consistent.

It is different when you are overtaking a car though as that car can become your brake marker.

Thanks Badgeronimous, I didn't see your reply until now. I always thought that drivers do the first one, wait until the last possible moment, brake hard and easing pressure. This is my view from seeing many drivers locking up going into the corner and then easing off the brakes. The second one sounds more like normal every day driving style

Good to see the Honey Badger back at the sharp-end.