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NetWorKzz wrote:Nico deserves a Ferrari drive. Give him two years to see how he handles himself vs. Seb.

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

pokerman wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

You make that sound like the Hulk knows something that we do not?

UnlikeUday wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

With due respect to Kimi, if Ferrari decide not to retain him, then does Bottas or Hulkenberg have a better chance to join Scuderia?

Wouldn't Kimi's replacement be termed as driver no. 2? In this case, Bottas wouldn't prefer being the shadow of Vettel whereas Hulk wouldn't mind as he'll get a big break & he has to consider the age factor as well.

If Bottas does go to Ferrari, Hulk getting to join Williams would be awesome as well.

UnlikeUday wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

With due respect to Kimi, if Ferrari decide not to retain him, then does Bottas or Hulkenberg have a better chance to join Scuderia?

Wouldn't Kimi's replacement be termed as driver no. 2? In this case, Bottas wouldn't prefer being the shadow of Vettel whereas Hulk wouldn't mind as he'll get a big break & he has to consider the age factor as well.

If Bottas does go to Ferrari, Hulk getting to join Williams would be awesome as well.

steoc4 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

With due respect to Kimi, if Ferrari decide not to retain him, then does Bottas or Hulkenberg have a better chance to join Scuderia?

Wouldn't Kimi's replacement be termed as driver no. 2? In this case, Bottas wouldn't prefer being the shadow of Vettel whereas Hulk wouldn't mind as he'll get a big break & he has to consider the age factor as well.

If Bottas does go to Ferrari, Hulk getting to join Williams would be awesome as well.

If Ferrari are just looking for a contracted number 2 then why bother replacing Kimi?

I think that anyone who joins Ferrari will get a fair shot, if they can keep up with or beat Vettel then the team aren't going to make them stop. If they prove significantly slower than Vettel and end up further back while Sebastien has a title shot, then of course they'll fall into a number 2 role, but I couldn't imagine either Valtteri or Nico believing they'd end up in that situation.

With all that said, there's nothing I've seen that makes Bottas a hotter property than Hulkenberg in my mind. If I was Ferrari I'd definitely choose Nico. But then I've been saying that for years, if I was Merc I'd have nabbed him instead of renewing Rosberg's contract last year, or if I was Red Bull I'd have got him in to replace Webber, F1 bosses have so far disagreed with me.

HawaiiF1Fan wrote:

steoc4 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

With due respect to Kimi, if Ferrari decide not to retain him, then does Bottas or Hulkenberg have a better chance to join Scuderia?

Wouldn't Kimi's replacement be termed as driver no. 2? In this case, Bottas wouldn't prefer being the shadow of Vettel whereas Hulk wouldn't mind as he'll get a big break & he has to consider the age factor as well.

If Bottas does go to Ferrari, Hulk getting to join Williams would be awesome as well.

If Ferrari are just looking for a contracted number 2 then why bother replacing Kimi?

I think that anyone who joins Ferrari will get a fair shot, if they can keep up with or beat Vettel then the team aren't going to make them stop. If they prove significantly slower than Vettel and end up further back while Sebastien has a title shot, then of course they'll fall into a number 2 role, but I couldn't imagine either Valtteri or Nico believing they'd end up in that situation.

With all that said, there's nothing I've seen that makes Bottas a hotter property than Hulkenberg in my mind. If I was Ferrari I'd definitely choose Nico. But then I've been saying that for years, if I was Merc I'd have nabbed him instead of renewing Rosberg's contract last year, or if I was Red Bull I'd have got him in to replace Webber, F1 bosses have so far disagreed with me.

Ferrari needs a solid and dependable #2 driver who consistently finishes in the points. I think both Bottas and the Hulk have proven that they are consistent and quick. To that point, so did Kimi when he was at Lotus, but something happened at Ferrari that's throwing him off.

I don't agree that either Bottas or the Hulk would be OK with being #2. They would fight to be #1 and if they weren't faster than Seb, then so be it. They seem to be very stable drivers.

With regards to the Hulk, I agree about Mercedes, but Nico has also proven to be very quick as well so I don't think it's in their interest at this time to change out their second driver. With Red Bull..........not happening. They cast aside their unpromising drivers very quickly and don't see them promoting any driver who isn't in their program.

With Fernando's backing of the Hulk I could see him potentially ending up at McLaren. If Jenson and/or Fernando left, the Hulk with Magnussen or Vandoorne would be a pretty good combination of experience and youth.

UnlikeUday wrote:

HawaiiF1Fan wrote:

steoc4 wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:

coulthards chin wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that the Hulk seems re-invigorated and Kimi is struggling.

With due respect to Kimi, if Ferrari decide not to retain him, then does Bottas or Hulkenberg have a better chance to join Scuderia?

Wouldn't Kimi's replacement be termed as driver no. 2? In this case, Bottas wouldn't prefer being the shadow of Vettel whereas Hulk wouldn't mind as he'll get a big break & he has to consider the age factor as well.

If Bottas does go to Ferrari, Hulk getting to join Williams would be awesome as well.

If Ferrari are just looking for a contracted number 2 then why bother replacing Kimi?

I think that anyone who joins Ferrari will get a fair shot, if they can keep up with or beat Vettel then the team aren't going to make them stop. If they prove significantly slower than Vettel and end up further back while Sebastien has a title shot, then of course they'll fall into a number 2 role, but I couldn't imagine either Valtteri or Nico believing they'd end up in that situation.

With all that said, there's nothing I've seen that makes Bottas a hotter property than Hulkenberg in my mind. If I was Ferrari I'd definitely choose Nico. But then I've been saying that for years, if I was Merc I'd have nabbed him instead of renewing Rosberg's contract last year, or if I was Red Bull I'd have got him in to replace Webber, F1 bosses have so far disagreed with me.

Ferrari needs a solid and dependable #2 driver who consistently finishes in the points. I think both Bottas and the Hulk have proven that they are consistent and quick. To that point, so did Kimi when he was at Lotus, but something happened at Ferrari that's throwing him off.

I don't agree that either Bottas or the Hulk would be OK with being #2. They would fight to be #1 and if they weren't faster than Seb, then so be it. They seem to be very stable drivers.

With regards to the Hulk, I agree about Mercedes, but Nico has also proven to be very quick as well so I don't think it's in their interest at this time to change out their second driver. With Red Bull..........not happening. They cast aside their unpromising drivers very quickly and don't see them promoting any driver who isn't in their program.

With Fernando's backing of the Hulk I could see him potentially ending up at McLaren. If Jenson and/or Fernando left, the Hulk with Magnussen or Vandoorne would be a pretty good combination of experience and youth.

Hulk would be better off at Williams even but till McHonda doesn't get reliable & pick up speed, it could be again a waste of time for Hulk to go there. Anyway, McLaren didn't choose him over Perez because of his height.

I believe Hulk has a decent shot to go to either Ferrari or a Williams.

DOLOMITE wrote:anyone?

DOLOMITE wrote:well the Alfa door has closed , Nico says no to Williams and I'd be shocked if Red Bull took him so sadly I think that's it for the Hulk. How on earth does a driver of his pedigree do 175 races and never manage even a podium?

mikeyg123 wrote:I don't think it's necessarily all over for him.

He'll be out for 2020 but he could come back. If anyone under performs next year he'll be the first to get a call. Who knows what will happen.

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I don't think it's necessarily all over for him.

He'll be out for 2020 but he could come back. If anyone under performs next year he'll be the first to get a call. Who knows what will happen.

Drivers don't come back very often when they're forced out of F1. Nico doesn't even have the backing of a major team.

DOLOMITE wrote:He's been a bit unlucky but you look at his pre-F1 record and it's impeccable, he was an absolute winning machine, how did that never convert into a top seat?

DOLOMITE wrote:

Exediron wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:I don't think it's necessarily all over for him.

He'll be out for 2020 but he could come back. If anyone under performs next year he'll be the first to get a call. Who knows what will happen.

Drivers don't come back very often when they're forced out of F1. Nico doesn't even have the backing of a major team.

and would be one of the oldest drivers on the grid with a less than glittering record - unlikely to be top of anyone's list with so many young guns about.

He's been a bit unlucky but you look at his pre-F1 record and it's impeccable, he was an absolute winning machine, how did that never convert into a top seat?

Heidfeld all over again. If you're German and your initial are NH....

Exediron wrote:

DOLOMITE wrote:He's been a bit unlucky but you look at his pre-F1 record and it's impeccable, he was an absolute winning machine, how did that never convert into a top seat?

I have to say that based on how he's matched up to Danny Ric, he likely wouldn't have won any races in a top car either. It's hard to find a top car without a top driver already in the other seat.

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

If Hulk had gotten Bottas' Merc drive, how well do you reckon he'd have done?

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:08 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

If Hulk had gotten Bottas' Merc drive, how well do you reckon he'd have done?

The same or worse. I don't see Hulk as having any strengths Bottas lacks, and I wouldn't rate his outright pace quite as high.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:08 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

If Hulk had gotten Bottas' Merc drive, how well do you reckon he'd have done?

The same or worse. I don't see Hulk as having any strengths Bottas lacks, and I wouldn't rate his outright pace quite as high.

I think he possibly he is better in terms of overtaking when there is an opportunity than Bottas, but I think his race pace isn't as good and Bottas quite possibly is one of the best on the grid over a single lap. So I doubt Hulkenberg would do better than him here either. The other negatives for Hulkenberg is that I think virtually every season of his, he's had one or two retirements he's been at fault for often involving him spinning or crashing himself. Just a few of the occasions I can remember was him hitting the wall twice in Baku, spinning in Russia 2015 at the start and retiring, crashing out in Germany 2019, flipping himself upside down against Grosjean in Abu Dhabi 2018, seeming rather oblivious to Massa coming out of the pits in Singapore one year and crashing. Unfortuantly, for these sorts of incidents involving retiring, I don't think the list ends there.

Bottas has only done this once in his entire career where he can take full blame for retiring. In that regard, even if Bottas appears to have no pace at times - it is better than making the level of mistakes Hulkenberg does. You could argue that as mercedes are often well ahead of the others that Hulkenberg wouldn't be involved as much with the other drivers, but even wehn Bottas was mixed with the pack at williams, he made a lot less mistakes than Hulkenberg. So with all this considered, I think Bottas has done a far better job at Mercedes than Hulkenberg will have done.

I think Perez will have been better than Hulkenberg but the qualifying gap would likely be simply massive. With the cars being so hard to overtake, I'm not sure how often Perez will have managed to beat hamilton. He possibly could have done a little better the times where Bottas was nowhere - but then I think Bottas and his strong starts were likely better than perez will have done. But it is all guessing really.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:08 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

If Hulk had gotten Bottas' Merc drive, how well do you reckon he'd have done?

The same or worse. I don't see Hulk as having any strengths Bottas lacks, and I wouldn't rate his outright pace quite as high.

I think he possibly he is better in terms of overtaking when there is an opportunity than Bottas, but I think his race pace isn't as good and Bottas quite possibly is one of the best on the grid over a single lap. So I doubt Hulkenberg would do better than him here either. The other negatives for Hulkenberg is that I think virtually every season of his, he's had one or two retirements he's been at fault for often involving him spinning or crashing himself. Just a few of the occasions I can remember was him hitting the wall twice in Baku, spinning in Russia 2015 at the start and retiring, crashing out in Germany 2019, flipping himself upside down against Grosjean in Abu Dhabi 2018, seeming rather oblivious to Massa coming out of the pits in Singapore one year and crashing. Unfortuantly, for these sorts of incidents involving retiring, I don't think the list ends there.

Bottas has only done this once in his entire career where he can take full blame for retiring. In that regard, even if Bottas appears to have no pace at times - it is better than making the level of mistakes Hulkenberg does. You could argue that as mercedes are often well ahead of the others that Hulkenberg wouldn't be involved as much with the other drivers, but even wehn Bottas was mixed with the pack at williams, he made a lot less mistakes than Hulkenberg. So with all this considered, I think Bottas has done a far better job at Mercedes than Hulkenberg will have done.

I think Perez will have been better than Hulkenberg but the qualifying gap would likely be simply massive. With the cars being so hard to overtake, I'm not sure how often Perez will have managed to beat hamilton. He possibly could have done a little better the times where Bottas was nowhere - but then I think Bottas and his strong starts were likely better than perez will have done. But it is all guessing really.

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:00 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:08 pm

Invade wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

If Hulk had gotten Bottas' Merc drive, how well do you reckon he'd have done?

The same or worse. I don't see Hulk as having any strengths Bottas lacks, and I wouldn't rate his outright pace quite as high.

I think he possibly he is better in terms of overtaking when there is an opportunity than Bottas, but I think his race pace isn't as good and Bottas quite possibly is one of the best on the grid over a single lap. So I doubt Hulkenberg would do better than him here either. The other negatives for Hulkenberg is that I think virtually every season of his, he's had one or two retirements he's been at fault for often involving him spinning or crashing himself. Just a few of the occasions I can remember was him hitting the wall twice in Baku, spinning in Russia 2015 at the start and retiring, crashing out in Germany 2019, flipping himself upside down against Grosjean in Abu Dhabi 2018, seeming rather oblivious to Massa coming out of the pits in Singapore one year and crashing. Unfortuantly, for these sorts of incidents involving retiring, I don't think the list ends there.

Bottas has only done this once in his entire career where he can take full blame for retiring. In that regard, even if Bottas appears to have no pace at times - it is better than making the level of mistakes Hulkenberg does. You could argue that as mercedes are often well ahead of the others that Hulkenberg wouldn't be involved as much with the other drivers, but even wehn Bottas was mixed with the pack at williams, he made a lot less mistakes than Hulkenberg. So with all this considered, I think Bottas has done a far better job at Mercedes than Hulkenberg will have done.

I think Perez will have been better than Hulkenberg but the qualifying gap would likely be simply massive. With the cars being so hard to overtake, I'm not sure how often Perez will have managed to beat hamilton. He possibly could have done a little better the times where Bottas was nowhere - but then I think Bottas and his strong starts were likely better than perez will have done. But it is all guessing really.

I would be hesitant in assuming Hulkenberg is outright slower than Bottas. According to racefans.net, the average gap between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg was just 7 hundredths to Ricciardo's favour. Qualifying is obviously Bottas' strongest point, but Hulkenberg has always been quick over one lap too. In race conditions, I would swing things in favour of Hulkenberg even further. Bottas has often times struggled in races - maybe it's down to him being too formulaic and not adaptable to changing conditions.

And on the topic of changing conditions, Hulkenberg would definitely beat Bottas in wet racing - I don't think many would disagree there.

I would also argue Bottas had been responsible for much more retirements than that - he had two incidents alone last year in Abu Dhabi and Germany. He has crashed many times in Q3 as well. Even if the count of Hulkenberg crashes is higher, I would put that mainly down to him being in the midfield and Hulkenberg taking more overtaking risks. Bottas is often way too cautious, only going for overtakes in which he clearly will pass them, and rarely ever shows any aggression.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:44 pm

Schumacher forever#1 wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:00 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:08 pm

The same or worse. I don't see Hulk as having any strengths Bottas lacks, and I wouldn't rate his outright pace quite as high.

I think he possibly he is better in terms of overtaking when there is an opportunity than Bottas, but I think his race pace isn't as good and Bottas quite possibly is one of the best on the grid over a single lap. So I doubt Hulkenberg would do better than him here either. The other negatives for Hulkenberg is that I think virtually every season of his, he's had one or two retirements he's been at fault for often involving him spinning or crashing himself. Just a few of the occasions I can remember was him hitting the wall twice in Baku, spinning in Russia 2015 at the start and retiring, crashing out in Germany 2019, flipping himself upside down against Grosjean in Abu Dhabi 2018, seeming rather oblivious to Massa coming out of the pits in Singapore one year and crashing. Unfortuantly, for these sorts of incidents involving retiring, I don't think the list ends there.

Bottas has only done this once in his entire career where he can take full blame for retiring. In that regard, even if Bottas appears to have no pace at times - it is better than making the level of mistakes Hulkenberg does. You could argue that as mercedes are often well ahead of the others that Hulkenberg wouldn't be involved as much with the other drivers, but even wehn Bottas was mixed with the pack at williams, he made a lot less mistakes than Hulkenberg. So with all this considered, I think Bottas has done a far better job at Mercedes than Hulkenberg will have done.

I think Perez will have been better than Hulkenberg but the qualifying gap would likely be simply massive. With the cars being so hard to overtake, I'm not sure how often Perez will have managed to beat hamilton. He possibly could have done a little better the times where Bottas was nowhere - but then I think Bottas and his strong starts were likely better than perez will have done. But it is all guessing really.

I would be hesitant in assuming Hulkenberg is outright slower than Bottas. According to racefans.net, the average gap between Ricciardo and Hulkenberg was just 7 hundredths to Ricciardo's favour. Qualifying is obviously Bottas' strongest point, but Hulkenberg has always been quick over one lap too. In race conditions, I would swing things in favour of Hulkenberg even further. Bottas has often times struggled in races - maybe it's down to him being too formulaic and not adaptable to changing conditions.

And on the topic of changing conditions, Hulkenberg would definitely beat Bottas in wet racing - I don't think many would disagree there.

I would also argue Bottas had been responsible for much more retirements than that - he had two incidents alone last year in Abu Dhabi and Germany. He has crashed many times in Q3 as well. Even if the count of Hulkenberg crashes is higher, I would put that mainly down to him being in the midfield and Hulkenberg taking more overtaking risks. Bottas is often way too cautious, only going for overtakes in which he clearly will pass them, and rarely ever shows any aggression.

Note that I am just including the races - which is by far the most critical point. As I followed Bottas very closely since 2014, I have noticed that the only time he's ever been responsible for crashing out of a race was Germany 2019. Even back in 2015 when bottas had his crash with Kimi in Russia, DC highlighted that Bottas had never been deemed responsible for any incidents for knocking himself or others out of a race. Since then, other than the race I mentioned, in this sense, he's been one of the most consistent drivers on the grid. You can't name many (if any) that have had 7+ years in the sport and only crashing out of a race once with themselves to blame. Even back when Bottas was in the midfield and had more drivers to battle with, my point with Hulkenberg is still valid as he was involved in quite a lot then too that he was at fault for. You could argue though that this is slightly similar to max chilton in 2013. Finishes every race but doesn't exactly stand out. He's not that weak, but I can see both advantages to this and some disadvantages to sometimes being too cautious.

Bottas has had quite a few smaller mistakes I'll admit, but not usually ones that cost him a great deal that regularly. Regarding Abu Dhabi last year, he did make a mistake in practice, but that was just practice. Although I do think that that attempt to pass grosjean was probably the most clumsy move I can remember seeing from Bottas. Probably deserved a reprimand at least. Not sure why he looked to be racing in practice.

If we start to include practice and qualifying, we could probably put a list of crashes Hamilton has had in the past few years too as he hasn't been without them. My point being that in the races over their career, Bottas has been far more consistent in that regard over Hulkenberg. And being careful as he is at times could be an advantage in that sense.

Many of the points I highlight about Hulkenberg wouldn't have been any different if he's been in a Mercedes as it wasn't related to being somewhere Mercedes wouldn't. Both crashes in Baku were literally driving into the wall which was just misunderstanding the handling of the car. Both looked 100% avoidable. And the crash with Massa in Singapore one year would be the same if he was in a Mercedes and came out in traffic - that happens at times. He was simply just unaware that Massa was there. Spinning in Russia 2015 could be another one to add that he didn't really have any disadvantage over Bottas. they were both in midfield cars, but he simply spun himself and got collected by Ericsson as he was blocking the track. Sorry to say, but I still think Hulkenberg is very error prone compared to Bottas and I don't think the main reason for that is that Bottas is no longer in the midfield. And a lot of his reasons for retiring also haven't been related to an attempted overtake because of being more aggressive than bottas and rather just being unaware of his surroundings.