Ferrari team orders? ;)

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Khazrak134
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Khazrak134 »

it looked like an honest mistake. either that or he followed the team order very convincingly, but i strongly doubt that

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Asphalt_World »

You also have to take in to account the fact that he went ride at least half a lap after we got the radio message on the TV and they are normally broadcast at least half to one lap after they are actually transmitted to the driver. Therefore there is every chance he went wide a good lap or more after the radio transmission.

Hardly went wide because of an instant reaction to the message.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by CoalRage »

That was not a team order, that was a very concerned race engineer that Perez was going to lose 18 very valuable points via a risky overtake, 18 points, 4 more points than he achieved for the entire 2011 season.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Porsan »

The words and the emotional tone of voice of Andrea Stella don't look like it was a fake win, don't you think? (unless he is the best actor in the world)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF_lE6eV7RA
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

HOERSS wrote:
No, after all Red Bull is the owner of Torro Rosso. That's obivous. From a few youtube-clips it's also fairly obivous that Torro Rosso drivers are expected to get out of the way if they are about to get lapped by a RB. So it's plausible that Torro Rosso will make it a bit harder for a McLaren to pass. I can see that happening with Ferrari/Sauber as well. A McLaren might have a harder time lapping a Sauber than a Ferrari. That's plausible too. There's still a HUUGE difference between that and claiming Perez deliberately made a mistake to aid Alonso. It makes absolutely no sense that Perez would try to catch Alonso by pushing hard on a damp track, only to make a deliberate mistake and then push more afterwards. What for?? What exactly would they be trying to hide??? IT's not racefixing. Team orders are allowed today. So why?

At least i can argue for my cause... havn't seen anything but assumptions based on more assumptions.


There are some dubious points regarding Sauber team:

- Why didn't they just cover Alonso in terms of tire strategy (inters to dry tires)? For example, tell Perez to "come in whenever Alonso comes in". For keeping Perez out for 1 more lap on inters, he lost about 5 sec to Alonso at that point. The chase would have been much easier if Perez cover Alonso for the last pit stop.

- The radio call seemed ambiguous and could make the driver confused. The running wide COULD have been the result of that, though I do admit that what Perez did in those laps didn't really look like a driver trying to stay behind, but who knows? Running wide doesn't put you out of the race. It can be done on purpose. It's not a strong argument I know, but it can happen. Before knowing the truth, people said that Piquet Jnr would never risk his life just to give a win to Alonso...etc... But of course this one is 1000 times less drama than the Piquet Jnr / Alonso incident, so nobody will care about it after some days anyway.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by F1Thomas »

Far to suspicious, there's to many conflicts to suggest it was not some kind of order.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Porsan »

g.trung wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
No, after all Red Bull is the owner of Torro Rosso. That's obivous. From a few youtube-clips it's also fairly obivous that Torro Rosso drivers are expected to get out of the way if they are about to get lapped by a RB. So it's plausible that Torro Rosso will make it a bit harder for a McLaren to pass. I can see that happening with Ferrari/Sauber as well. A McLaren might have a harder time lapping a Sauber than a Ferrari. That's plausible too. There's still a HUUGE difference between that and claiming Perez deliberately made a mistake to aid Alonso. It makes absolutely no sense that Perez would try to catch Alonso by pushing hard on a damp track, only to make a deliberate mistake and then push more afterwards. What for?? What exactly would they be trying to hide??? IT's not racefixing. Team orders are allowed today. So why?

At least i can argue for my cause... havn't seen anything but assumptions based on more assumptions.


There are some dubious points regarding the Sauber team:

- Why didn't they just cover Alonso in terms of tire strategy (inters to dry tires)? For example, tell Perez to "come in whenever Alonso comes in". For keeping Perez out for 1 more lap on inters, he lost about 5 sec to Alonso at that point. The chase would have been much easier if Perez cover Alonso for the last pit stop.

- The radio call seemed ambiguous and could make the driver confused. The running wide COULD have been the result of that, though I do admit that what Perez did in those laps didn't really look like a driver trying to stay behind, but who knows? Running wide doesn't put you out of the race. It can be done on purpose. It's not a strong argument I know, but it can happen. Before knowing the truth, people said that Piquet Jnr would never risk his life just to give a win to Alonso...etc... But of course this one is 1000 times less drama than the Piquet Jnr / Alonso incident, so nobody will care about it after some days anyway.


And there is one even more dubious point regarding your post:

If they were not going to win, why the hell did Pérez push like a mad, setting lap record after lap record, when his second place was not in danger?

BTW, the radio call wasn't ambiguous at all, the message was very clear: "don't do stupid mistakes when we can get our best finish ever"
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

Porsan wrote:
And there is one even more dubious point regarding your post:

If they were not going to win, why the hell did Pérez push like a mad, setting lap record after lap record, when his second place was not in danger?

BTW, the radio call wasn't ambiguous at all, the message was very clear: "don't do stupid mistakes when we can get our best finish ever"


- Maybe that was before the radio call.

- When Perez looked very confident and around .5 sec per lap faster than Alonso, already at his tail, why giving such a discourage message (or better say it can be interpreted as a discourage message). I would think a normal message can be "you're faster than Alonso, we can win this. just don't do anything stupid". something like that. Of course we can't know for sure. just some thought.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Greg92 »

First of all, I'd like to stress the fact that although I understand the mods have a busy day today, most of the "tinfoil hats" and "toffee apple" replies should be reported and sanctioned according to the forum rules. They're totally unacceptable, are directed at posters instead of the posts therefore are subjective instead of objective, and completely lack arguments. The most important thing to consider here is that neither side of the debate possesses proof therefore both sides are simply speculating at this point. Taking a side because your logic leads you to accept one conclusion or reject it otherwise is OK but insulting another poster without being able to prove otherwise and what's worse without even attempting to prove otherwise shows nothing but conceit and pomposity.

Back on topic, personally I lean more towards the team order side than against it. Without speculating about the implications of Ferrari, the engine supply, the running wide, the Perez to Ferrari move etc. what I truly found suspicious was the timing of the message. If Sauber was truly worried about the second place points he would and should have asked Perez to be careful during the handful of laps after the pit stops when the guy was putting consecutive fastest laps, closing over 7 seconds of gap to Alonso and not when his nose was attached to Alonso's gearbox. It didn't help also that the message itself was confusing.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by ynot22 »

pathetic just pathetic op

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Porsan »

g.trung wrote:
Porsan wrote:
And there is one even more dubious point regarding your post:

If they were not going to win, why the hell did Pérez push like a mad, setting lap record after lap record, when his second place was not in danger?

BTW, the radio call wasn't ambiguous at all, the message was very clear: "don't do stupid mistakes when we can get our best finish ever"


- Maybe that was before the radio call.

- When Perez looked very confident and around .5 sec per lap faster than Alonso, already at his tail, why giving such a discourage message (or better say it can be interpreted as a discourage message). I would think a normal message can be "you're faster than Alonso, we can win this. just don't do anything stupid". something like that. Of course we can't know for sure. just some thought.


Then you're contradicting yourself about "Sauber not covering Fernando tyre change", because this was way before the Pérez pushed to catch Fernando and obviously before the radio call, so your only "obscure" point is the message itself. And the message only said, litteraly, "Hey, Checo, be careful and remember Maldonado last week", which is message which seems perfectly logical to me.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

Porsan wrote:
Then you're contradicting yourself about "Sauber not covering Fernando tyre change", because this was way before the Pérez pushed to catch Fernando and obviously before the radio call, so your only "obscure" point is the message itself. And the message only said, litteraly, "Hey, Checo, be careful and remember Maldonado last week", which is message which seems perfectly logical to me.

No, I'm not contradicting myself because the pit strategy was from the team, let's say Perez wasn't let known about the intention of the team until the radio call in the last laps when he was already at the tail of the Ferrari.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Pedrosa_4_Ever »

It looked like a genuine mistake from Perez but hey, didn't Piquet's crash at Singapore '08 look pretty genuine? The fact of the matter is, Ferrari and Sauber have previous on this sort of thing, most prominently being Jerez '97 when Noberto Fontana consistently blocked JV when he was trying to lap him. Maybe it was the same today, maybe it wasn't, but I think poo pooing the idea so quickly like some people are doing isn't the best idea, remember how much people laughed at the guy who suggested the crashgate conspiracy when it first happened?
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Blake »

g.trung wrote:
Porsan wrote:
Then you're contradicting yourself about "Sauber not covering Fernando tyre change", because this was way before the Pérez pushed to catch Fernando and obviously before the radio call, so your only "obscure" point is the message itself. And the message only said, litteraly, "Hey, Checo, be careful and remember Maldonado last week", which is message which seems perfectly logical to me.

No, I'm not contradicting myself because the pit strategy was from the team, let's say Perez wasn't let known about the intention of the team until the radio call in the last laps when he was already at the tail of the Ferrari.



I will give you this... you are persistent in your desperation to diminish the driving of Alonso. I have yet to see you explain the on the edge driving of Perez AFTER he went off. If it was the intention to finish second, why wouldn't have have just held place, it would have been easy to do after the off, claiming the car just was not the same.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Porsan »

g.trung wrote:
Porsan wrote:
Then you're contradicting yourself about "Sauber not covering Fernando tyre change", because this was way before the Pérez pushed to catch Fernando and obviously before the radio call, so your only "obscure" point is the message itself. And the message only said, litteraly, "Hey, Checo, be careful and remember Maldonado last week", which is message which seems perfectly logical to me.

No, I'm not contradicting myself because the pit strategy was from the team, let's say Perez wasn't let known about the intention of the team until the radio call in the last laps when he was already at the tail of the Ferrari.


OK.

So, Peter Sauber got a phone call from Dom and he was "ordered" to tell Sergio to slow down. Then, Herr Sauber let Sergio take all the risks he could (which could easily lead to Pérez destroying the best Sauber finish position ever), until he caught the Ferrari, and then he was instructed to let Fernando go, but making it in a way which seemed realistic and, therefore, assuming a 50% risk of finishing his race in the gravel. Do you really think all this makes any sense? I don't.

BTW, we are talking about the same Peter Sauber that we saw on tears of joy when Checo crossed the line in P2...Do you think that the mood at Sauber's garage was like they had been forbidden to win by another team?
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Johnston »

Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:It looked like a genuine mistake from Perez but hey, didn't Piquet's crash at Singapore '08 look pretty genuine? The fact of the matter is, Ferrari and Sauber have previous on this sort of thing, most prominently being Jerez '97 when Noberto Fontana consistently blocked JV when he was trying to lap him. Maybe it was the same today, maybe it wasn't, but I think poo pooing the idea so quickly like some people are doing isn't the best idea, remember how much people laughed at the guy who suggested the crashgate conspiracy when it first happened?



Thing is the Piquet crash was pre planned.

do you think Ferrari sit down with Sauber who then sits down with his drivers and says "If you are behind Alonso look like you are going for the win but run wide at corner x to hand them the win but make it look genuine" At every race???

NO Sauber would just come on the radio and say "look Sergio we're happy with 2nd don't balls it up and lose the points chasing for the win"
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Herbalist »

g.trung wrote:
HOERSS wrote:
No, after all Red Bull is the owner of Torro Rosso. That's obivous. From a few youtube-clips it's also fairly obivous that Torro Rosso drivers are expected to get out of the way if they are about to get lapped by a RB. So it's plausible that Torro Rosso will make it a bit harder for a McLaren to pass. I can see that happening with Ferrari/Sauber as well. A McLaren might have a harder time lapping a Sauber than a Ferrari. That's plausible too. There's still a HUUGE difference between that and claiming Perez deliberately made a mistake to aid Alonso. It makes absolutely no sense that Perez would try to catch Alonso by pushing hard on a damp track, only to make a deliberate mistake and then push more afterwards. What for?? What exactly would they be trying to hide??? IT's not racefixing. Team orders are allowed today. So why?

At least i can argue for my cause... havn't seen anything but assumptions based on more assumptions.


There are some dubious points regarding Sauber team:

- Why didn't they just cover Alonso in terms of tire strategy (inters to dry tires)? For example, tell Perez to "come in whenever Alonso comes in". For keeping Perez out for 1 more lap on inters, he lost about 5 sec to Alonso at that point. The chase would have been much easier if Perez cover Alonso for the last pit stop.

- The radio call seemed ambiguous and could make the driver confused. The running wide COULD have been the result of that, though I do admit that what Perez did in those laps didn't really look like a driver trying to stay behind, but who knows? Running wide doesn't put you out of the race. It can be done on purpose. It's not a strong argument I know, but it can happen. Before knowing the truth, people said that Piquet Jnr would never risk his life just to give a win to Alonso...etc... But of course this one is 1000 times less drama than the Piquet Jnr / Alonso incident, so nobody will care about it after some days anyway.


McLaren has made some stupid calls, every team has, surely Sauber is able to make a bad call? I can very well understand why they wanted to play it safe. Your possibility is the least likely i can think of, but why pick that one then?

I really can't see anything unusual about the radiocall either?? A team on the way to their best result ever, telling their inexperienced driver to be careful in damp conditions on slicks is not unusual, it should be expected. And if i understand you correctly you're assuming that Sauber intentionally radiocalled their driver in precious 2nd place... to give him a confusing message which would then result in a mistake ??? Come on.. It can't become more unlikely than that.

Just because something CAN happen, and in this case a very unlikely event, doesn't mean you have to treat it as a valid theory. Especially when everything is based on assumptions based on other assumptions.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by RunningMan »

Perez is a fast, but relatively inexperienced driver. He's in second place on slicks on a damp track. On the way to his best ever finish. Of course the team would want him to take it easy. A win's good, yes, but for a team battling in such a tight midfield, second place and 18 points is as good as a win for them.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

Porsan wrote:[

OK.

So, Peter Sauber got a phone call from Dom and he was "ordered" to tell Sergio to slow down. Then, Herr Sauber let Sergio take all the risks he could (which could easily lead to Pérez destroying the best Sauber finish position ever), until he caught the Ferrari, and then he was instructed to let Fernando go, but making it in a way which seemed realistic and, therefore, assuming a 50% risk of finishing his race in the gravel. Do you really think all this makes any sense? I don't.

BTW, we are talking about the same Peter Sauber that we saw on tears of joy when Checo crossed the line in P2...Do you think that the mood at Sauber's garage was like they had been forbidden to win by another team?


their might not be a communication between Ferrari and Sauber for this particular matter (i.e "let us win this"). May be it is quite awkward to make a direct inter-team request like that, but it's possible that Sauber knows what to do to please/not to upset Ferrari. So may be it's more of a implicit with that kind of relation between the two teams. Noone knows for sure, of course

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by RoadPilgrim »

How is this thread still going?
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Greg92 »

RunningMan wrote:Perez is a fast, but relatively inexperienced driver. He's in second place on slicks on a damp track. On the way to his best ever finish. Of course the team would want him to take it easy. A win's good, yes, but for a team battling in such a tight midfield, second place and 18 points is as good as a win for them.


So why didn't the team ask him to take it easy before? This is what I find suspicious. What about you?

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Fiki »

g.trung wrote:Before knowing the truth, people said that Piquet Jnr would never risk his life just to give a win to Alonso...etc... But of course this one is 1000 times less drama than the Piquet Jnr / Alonso incident, so nobody will care about it after some days anyway.

And don't lose sight of the fact that Perez's seat isn't under threat.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by dizlexik »

falb wrote:The most important thing to consider here is that neither side of the debate possesses proof therefore both sides are simply speculating at this point. Taking a side because your logic leads you to accept one conclusion or reject it otherwise is OK but insulting another poster without being able to prove otherwise and what's worse without even attempting to prove otherwise shows nothing but conceit and pomposity.


Wrong.I have no theory. The other side must prove that Sauber F1 Team are liars.




Sergio Perez (2nd)
“It is a great day for me. The team did a very good job and I feel very happy for them. It is a really nice feeling to have been on the podium here, but I think victory was also within reach. Twice in the race I was catching Fernando. On the final stint, when I was on the hard tyre compound, my tyres had degraded quite a lot. It wasn’t easy and I went wide and touched a curb. I actually was lucky not to go off. Before that Fernando had just pitted on the perfect lap for dry tyres, just one lap before me, and I lost a bit of ground to him. It was very difficult to make the right calls today and I want to thank my team. They always called me in at the right time, the first stop after lap one was especially important and it was also good to take the hard compound in the end, as the medium compound was not working too well for us. It is only our second race in 2012 and I think we have a great season ahead of us. I knew we had potential to fight today, our car is not far away from the top cars and a good crew and a driver can also make a difference in such conditions.”

Peter Sauber, Sauber team principal
“What a great result! Sergio drove an outstanding race and rose above our expectations. What surprised me most was the fact that he was very competitive in all conditions and with all tyres. Whether they were wet, intermediate or dry tyres he was always one of the fastest drivers on track if not the fastest. This obviously also shows the huge potential of the car. And I want to pay a big compliment to Giampaolo Dall’Ara and his team for doing a great job with the strategy. Thanks also to everybody in the factory in Hinwil. I’m sorry for Kamui who had to stop due to a technical problem. Nevertheless it was a great and important day for the team.”



Q: I’m sure Sergio it’s a Sunday that you’ll remember for the rest of your life as well. A phenomenal effort from yourself and the team but do you think this was a win that could have been yours?
Sergio Perez: I think so, I definitely think so. I mean, I was catching Fernando toward the end of the race, I knew I had to get him soon because all the sectors with the high speed I was losing already my front tyres with a lot of degradation going behind Fernando, so it wasn’t easy. Then I ran wide in the quick corner, I touched a kerb and I went to the dirty side. It was completely wet and that was the end of the win, probably. It was very difficult obviously to get Fernando but I think today the win was possible. I have to say the team has done an incredible job. They called me always on the right time, especially the first pit stop we did, it was really at the right moment. Unfortunately Fernando pitted one lap earlier than us, towards the end of the race when the track was already dry and he opened some gap there, and even then we managed to get him, the pace was fantastic, I was really quick. I have to say many thanks to the team, they have done a great job and I’m very happy for them.
Last edited by dizlexik on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eeee

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

HOERSS wrote:McLaren has made some stupid calls, every team has, surely Sauber is able to make a bad call? I can very well understand why they wanted to play it safe. Your possibility is the least likely i can think of, but why pick that one then?

I really can't see anything unusual about the radiocall either?? A team on the way to their best result ever, telling their inexperienced driver to be careful in damp conditions on slicks is not unusual, it should be expected. And if i understand you correctly you're assuming that Sauber intentionally radiocalled their driver in precious 2nd place... to give him a confusing message which would then result in a mistake ??? Come on.. It can't become more unlikely than that.

Just because something CAN happen, and in this case a very unlikely event, doesn't mean you have to treat it as a valid theory. Especially when everything is based on assumptions based on other assumptions.

It's less complicated for Sauber to make a call because Perez was P2, around 3 sec behind Alonso, and faster than him. So, just cover him and Perez would be good, wouldn't him? Only one opponent, and the race was approaching the end. 1 pit to go. Just cover him. McLaren case was at a chaotic time in the race thus much more complicated.

And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Blake »

falb wrote:So why didn't the team ask him to take it easy before? This is what I find suspicious. What about you?


Come now, Falb, you are better than this.

There are any number of reasons that could apply, the most likely thing being that they had actually by that point come to believe their inexperienced driver in their less than the best car just might be able to make the podium in the race. Up to that point, it was fun, but you would have been waiting for reality to set in.

Of course, another thing being that it was not intended as a "we are satisfied with 2nd" at all, instead just being a warning to be careful, as the points were quite valuable to the team... while not necessarily wanting him to give up and settle, just be careful for turns and situations coming up.

Why does it have to be "suspicious"...and don't give me the past history excuse, as virtually every team has had "suspicious" transmissions in the past, despite what some seem to think.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Blake »

g.trung wrote:
And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.


baloney
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by F108 »

I think his mistake was genuine, but I really do believe Sauber did not want to challenge their engine supplier for the win, if it was any other team they would have went for it. If they really wanted that win they would have covered Alonso in the pits instead of waiting.
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

Blake wrote:
g.trung wrote:
And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.


baloney

why?

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Guia »

g.trung wrote:
Blake wrote:
g.trung wrote:
And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.


baloney

why?

Because Blake - love him though we do - is an unapologetically partisan Tifoso who simply won't hear of it. Unless 'it' is directed at McLaren, of course.

Say it ain't so, Blake.

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Herbalist »

g.trung wrote:It's less complicated for Sauber to make a call because Perez was P2, around 3 sec behind Alonso, and faster than him. So, just cover him and Perez would be good, wouldn't him? Only one opponent, and the race was approaching the end. 1 pit to go. Just cover him. McLaren case was at a chaotic time in the race thus much more complicated.

And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.


*sigh*

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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Lotus38 »

So what about the radio call from Sauber?? Just look at what happened to Maldonado for pushing too much on the closing stages of Australia. They lost the best result they would have had in YEARS.

Don't some of you paranoids think that in view of what happened just a few days back the Sauber team may have been a little bit concerned that the same happened to their driver??

Christ, some of the conspiracy theories going on are utterly pathetic. Your fav driver did not win, your hated Alonso won ON MERIT. Live with it.

By the way, who did Ferrari bribe for Alonso's P5 last week? I seem to have missed it but I'm sure a lot of you can come up with some in depth obscure reason. Oh wait, Macca did a P1-P3 in Australia.. all is good!! :lol:
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

HOERSS wrote:
g.trung wrote:It's less complicated for Sauber to make a call because Perez was P2, around 3 sec behind Alonso, and faster than him. So, just cover him and Perez would be good, wouldn't him? Only one opponent, and the race was approaching the end. 1 pit to go. Just cover him. McLaren case was at a chaotic time in the race thus much more complicated.

And with that kind of teams relationship, especially regarding Ferrari, you can never get a black-and-white for a conclusion.


*sigh*

I can't argue with someone who has a predetermined view of an incident.

because the fact is, things do have been done under the table. Or, not that dramatic, it's just that Sauber knew what to do to please/not to upset his sister team. Quite understandable actually. No drama.

av-rated
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by av-rated »

dizlexik wrote:Ferrari haters are pathetic. Fact.


This. It would unbelievable if it were not so predictable. And like clockwork, it's from the same ilk that claim they wouldn't miss Ferrari if they parted ways with F1...the irony.
It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

Greg92
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Greg92 »

Blake wrote:
falb wrote:So why didn't the team ask him to take it easy before? This is what I find suspicious. What about you?


Come now, Falb, you are better than this.

There are any number of reasons that could apply, the most likely thing being that they had actually by that point come to believe their inexperienced driver in their less than the best car just might be able to make the podium in the race. Up to that point, it was fun, but you would have been waiting for reality to set in.

Of course, another thing being that it was not intended as a "we are satisfied with 2nd" at all, instead just being a warning to be careful, as the points were quite valuable to the team... while not necessarily wanting him to give up and settle, just be careful for turns and situations coming up.

Why does it have to be "suspicious"...and don't give me the past history excuse, as virtually every team has had "suspicious" transmissions in the past, despite what some seem to think.


Blake, as I previously said, I'm not invoking Ferrari and history in the discussion. As a Schumacher supporter I've always found it the wrong approach and to this day I still maintain that Monaco 2006 was an error punished harshly because of Schumacher's past.

However, the timing of the radio communication is the worst possible, there's no denying that or going around it. Perez was over seven seconds behind Alonso after his stop and comfortably ahead of Hamilton. He started lapping about a second faster than Alonso and even more than Hamilton. Logic would show that if Sauber TRULY wanted to play it safe, they had over seven laps to send the message to their driver instead of allowing him to lap faster than everyone in the 4th-7th best car and risking a mistake, a failure or an off in still dump conditions.

However, here's my possible scenarios:

1. Sauber showed incompetence by choosing the worst timing possible to remind their driver to be careful.
2. Sauber showed lack of trust in Perez to pull an overtake.
3. Sauber showed lack of trust in Alonso to play fair and safe during a possible pass.
4. Sauber showed political thinking when they allowed Perez to become a threat to Ferrari and Alonso and then "held him back", creating thus a good bargaining chip with their engine supplier and possible buyer of Perez.
5. Ferrari winked at Sauber.

The first three scenarios, even though possible are not probable in my mind because as I said, Sauber had over 7 laps to realize the risk Perez was taking by lapping faster than everyone and challenging Alonso.

The fourth, even though pure speculation, is not that far-fetched considering the political world of F1.

The fifth, I don't subscribe to, but I don't discount it either.

Greg92
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Greg92 »

dizlexik wrote:
falb wrote:The most important thing to consider here is that neither side of the debate possesses proof therefore both sides are simply speculating at this point. Taking a side because your logic leads you to accept one conclusion or reject it otherwise is OK but insulting another poster without being able to prove otherwise and what's worse without even attempting to prove otherwise shows nothing but conceit and pomposity.


Wrong.I have no theory. The other side must prove that Sauber F1 Team are liars.


I see, you have never considered something you have no proof of to be true. I have.

Deadly
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by Deadly »

Petruchio wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Petruchio wrote:
Deadly wrote:
morgana wrote:My conclusion from this thread is that some people are sore losers indeed.


It's not that they a sore losers... they're just ridiculous frankly

Blake wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the laughs!


Kinda reminds me of the Piquet Jr crash (Alonso win) and the "conspiracy" thread afterwards. People like you were laughing there donkeys off... and guess what?


That was truly an epic thread.
Based on Ferrari's and Alonso's history, I won't start calling anybody a conspiracy toffee apple or anything else, but I do think Sergio's off track excursion was a totally human mistake.


So do I...Just saying that nobody should ever use words like "ridiculous" and "laughs" together with Alonso and intentional error...Simple as that


I normally would feel that using the words I chose is an ignorant stance in a discussion but I'm just stuck on the opinion that it is a "ridiculous" suggestion to say Perez was not going for the win. Today was nothing like "crashgate" which was planned by various members of the Renault team. Perez was reeling in Alonso and made a mistake due to understeer from following closely. After that mistake he continued to try and catch Alonso.

Today both Perez and Alonso did great things in cars which ordinarily wouldn't be on the podium, they both deserve plaudits.

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dizlexik
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by dizlexik »

falb wrote:
Blake wrote:
falb wrote:So why didn't the team ask him to take it easy before? This is what I find suspicious. What about you?


Come now, Falb, you are better than this.

There are any number of reasons that could apply, the most likely thing being that they had actually by that point come to believe their inexperienced driver in their less than the best car just might be able to make the podium in the race. Up to that point, it was fun, but you would have been waiting for reality to set in.

Of course, another thing being that it was not intended as a "we are satisfied with 2nd" at all, instead just being a warning to be careful, as the points were quite valuable to the team... while not necessarily wanting him to give up and settle, just be careful for turns and situations coming up.

Why does it have to be "suspicious"...and don't give me the past history excuse, as virtually every team has had "suspicious" transmissions in the past, despite what some seem to think.


Blake, as I previously said, I'm not invoking Ferrari and history in the discussion. As a Schumacher supporter I've always found it the wrong approach and to this day I still maintain that Monaco 2006 was an error punished harshly because of Schumacher's past.

However, the timing of the radio communication is the worst possible, there's no denying that or going around it. Perez was over seven seconds behind Alonso after his stop and comfortably ahead of Hamilton. He started lapping about a second faster than Alonso and even more than Hamilton. Logic would show that if Sauber TRULY wanted to play it safe, they had over seven laps to send the message to their driver instead of allowing him to lap faster than everyone in the 4th-7th best car and risking a mistake, a failure or an off in still dump conditions.

However, here's my possible scenarios:

1. Sauber showed incompetence by choosing the worst timing possible to remind their driver to be careful.
2. Sauber showed lack of trust in Perez to pull an overtake.
3. Sauber showed lack of trust in Alonso to play fair and safe during a possible pass.
4. Sauber showed political thinking when they allowed Perez to become a threat to Ferrari and Alonso and then "held him back", creating thus a good bargaining chip with their engine supplier and possible buyer of Perez.
5. Ferrari winked at Sauber.

The first three scenarios, even though possible are not probable in my mind because as I said, Sauber had over 7 laps to realize the risk Perez was taking by lapping faster than everyone and challenging Alonso.

The fourth, even though pure speculation, is not that far-fetched considering the political world of F1.

The fifth, I don't subscribe to, but I don't discount it either.

They are all assumptions. They are wrong until you can prove them.


Facts are.

Perez was chasing Alonso. Team warns Perez when it was clear that he is about to pass Alonso. Then Perez ran wide, lost 5 seconds and he can't re-catch Alonso. All team members denied any false allegations.

I can tell you that you stole my lollipop, but I have to prove that, not you. This is the same situation when you create any theories about this incident.
eeee

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dizlexik
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by dizlexik »

falb wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
falb wrote:The most important thing to consider here is that neither side of the debate possesses proof therefore both sides are simply speculating at this point. Taking a side because your logic leads you to accept one conclusion or reject it otherwise is OK but insulting another poster without being able to prove otherwise and what's worse without even attempting to prove otherwise shows nothing but conceit and pomposity.


Wrong.I have no theory. The other side must prove that Sauber F1 Team are liars.


I see, you have never considered something you have no proof of to be true. I have.

But don't say that both sides are equal. They are not.
eeee

g.trung
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by g.trung »

dizlexik wrote:They are all assumptions

this is quite easy to say. of course what all we make are assumptions. what other else are we expected to make? these are very good and strong grounded assumptions from Falb.

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cdriel
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Re: Ferrari team orders? ;)

Post by cdriel »

What a thread. Maldonado made a mistake in Melbourne. I think you don't need to explain a professional F1 driver not to do such things.

First of all, I think none of us really knows what exactly happened, but calling the other opinion "stupid", doesn't really make sense right? After all, it is a forum. And the internet explodes about this subject, so it's out there and you can't deny it.
You can say that you think the evidence is thin. Okay, point taken.

I'm with the guys thinking this is set up. First of all, F1 is a business. Ferrari simply won't let this Perez win if they have such an influence on the Sauber team and driver. Would make no sense.
The radio message supports this. The run off on the safest part of the track support this and the whole situation as well.

It has nothing to do with conspiracy thinking. Especially not when *a lot* of people think this way. Can't shove that aside as a conspiracy.

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