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I used to think Toto Wolff was the best ever team manager in F1, but I am starting to change my mind based on RB's performance this season.

Everyone in team from the pitstop crew, strategists to their engineers have been faultless.

Who would you hire?

I think it's easy to do all, and say all the right things when your winning. Or as Mike Tyson once put it - "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

No doubt Toto is a good manager. I've no idea if he's the best though. TBH the only one I currently rate is Seidl.

I'd have Todt. Or is it only current TM's?

Horner. I am not sure how Wolff will deal with real hardship. He’s had it super easy in his career.

Horner is the most proven team principle. He build up Red Bull, he’s a proven winner, and he’s dealt with actual hardship.

Seidl

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:19 pm

TBH the only one I currently rate is Seidl.

This is my feeling as well. Of all the current team principals, Seidl is the one I'd take in the foxhole.

But between Horner and Wolff, I'd take Horner. He's stood the test of time and been strong at every stage of RBR's existence. I'm not so certain about Wolff, particularly now that his interests seem to be moving more in the direction of investment and ownership. Horner still seems like a leader for the future, and I think Wolff's days at the top are rapidly dwindling.

Toto, Horner is insufferable.

I voted Horner cause I like his personality. He has this win at any cost mentality, which may toe the line occasionally.

Also, working in media corp myself, I interact with many Netflix peers who talk about DTS anecdotes, and based on that it seems Horner is very approachable and friendly.

However, the real test between the two really starts next season. New formula, so we will see whose approach pays off in the long run. If Wolf's team wins more WDCs with the new regs then Wolf would have done a better job than Horner. Wolf has obviously been more successful in the hybrid era. Horner winning one season doesnt make him a better team principal.

I hate both of them with a passion. Both too arrogant. Don't think either of them really play a major part in their teams successes.

Horner for me. Speaking of I came across this earlier, Bjorn Wirdheim (raced for Horner in F3000) in commentary over the weekend, and found it amusing:

https://streamable.com/xzhyyp

Hard one. Wolff has kept Mercedes at the top of its game for a long time, but that's not all down to him. He came into Mercedes when they were well on the way to developing what would be the most dominant car of all time. They had already recruited Rosberg and Hamilton and most of the key staff.

Horner has proven he can take a team from the midfield (at best) and put the elements in place to make it a title winner. RB had some lean years against Mercedes but through a successful partnership with Honda they've made their way into to the title race again.

Both are extremely competitive and will look for every edge and advantage on and off the track.

Both have had to deal with driver politics and incidents, in my opinion Red Bull seem better at keeping their drivers under control.

I'd tip my hat to Horner, just because he came into a team that was nowhere and built it into a 4-straight title winner.

Horner might be a bit of a whiner but the man has proven a successful leader since he was out in charge of the Red Bull team. He made them perennial contenders then winners and they have never not been relevant.

Wolff on the other hand, while I’ve come around to actually liking the guy quite a bit, he shoehorned his way into Ross Brawn’s team and pushed him out at a critical time, when the team was starting to turn the corner. Their supreme success is due in great part to having the best engine, in one of the best chassis, but since then they’ve continued to innovate and improve in several areas, but you can’t compare Wolff to Horner and what he’s done to build that team and keep them at the sharp end of the field.

Does Horner shoulder any blame for Red Bull’s relative lack of competitiveness from 2014-2020 and Red Bull falling out with Renault?

Depends whether you want to hire a team principal or a one-side-of-the-team principal...

JN23 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:01 am

Does Horner shoulder any blame for Red Bull’s relative lack of competitiveness from 2014-2020 and Red Bull falling out with Renault?

Absolutely. I don’t think Toto or any other team principal for that matter would publicly slate there current PU supplier thinking they could get a deal elsewhere and not having anything in place. Then only have to go back grovelling to get the PU they hated so much back so they could take part in the championship. I feel some people have short term memories.

Whilst you have to admire the longevity Horner has and where the team came from to where they are now. I just don’t know how much authority Horner has.

Harpo wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:27 am

Depends whether you want to hire a team principal or a one-side-of-the-team principal...

That applies to both. Maybe not in equal measures, but it does

Close call but Horner just edges it for me, mainly because we've never really seen Toto manage a team from a lower mid-field position. Also (and I could be imagining this) but this year now that Merc has some proper competition - and are not pre-ordained to win, I sense I am seeing a few cracks in Toto's normally unflappable and logical demeanor.

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:19 pm

I think it's easy to do all, and say all the right things when your winning. Or as Mike Tyson once put it - "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

No doubt Toto is a good manager. I've no idea if he's the best though. TBH the only one I currently rate is Seidl.

I don’t entirely follow your logic. You don’t rate Toto that highly because he hasn’t ever had to deal with real hardship, which is fair (he took over Mercedes in 2013), but how can you say the same thing about Horner? He’s been at Red Bull since 2005.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:04 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:19 pm

I think it's easy to do all, and say all the right things when your winning. Or as Mike Tyson once put it - "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

No doubt Toto is a good manager. I've no idea if he's the best though. TBH the only one I currently rate is Seidl.

I don’t entirely follow your logic. You don’t rate Toto that highly because he hasn’t ever had to deal with real hardship, which is fair (he took over Mercedes in 2013), but how can you say the same thing about Horner? He’s been at Red Bull since 2005.

I was referring specifically to Toto.

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

Was Mercedes successful in 2010-2012? Is that what you are saying here???

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:38 am

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

Was Mercedes successful in 2010-2012? Is that what you are saying here???

A lot more than Red Bull in 2005...

Horner took a failing team in Jaguar and managed it into a championship contending team in less than 5 years.

That's not bad.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:41 am

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:38 am

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

Was Mercedes successful in 2010-2012? Is that what you are saying here???

A lot more than Red Bull in 2005...

It wasn't a comparison...

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:38 am

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

Was Mercedes successful in 2010-2012? Is that what you are saying here???

No, I was meaning more the foundation for success was there, and he managed it. This was based on comments I’ve heard that Schumi got the ball rolling when it comes to their legacy. I’ve since seen Lauda joined after Toto, so I correct myself there.

For me, I think Christian turning what was essentially Jaguar into a 4 time champion is more impressive than what Toto has done at Mercedes.

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:16 am

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:38 am

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:47 pm

Ooh, this is a good one. I think I would vote Horner. He's shown he can take a midfield team, and make them contenders.

Toto, I don't know. I could have my timelines wrong, but I feel like he might have had some assistance from M. Schumacher and Lauda in the early days, and he's just managed what was already successful. That said, I could have my timelines out of whack, and happy to be challenged or proven otherwise.

Was Mercedes successful in 2010-2012? Is that what you are saying here???

No, I was meaning more the foundation for success was there, and he managed it. This was based on comments I’ve heard that Schumi got the ball rolling when it comes to their legacy. I’ve since seen Lauda joined after Toto, so I correct myself there.

For me, I think Christian turning what was essentially Jaguar into a 4 time champion is more impressive than what Toto has done at Mercedes.

Ok, got you. You are correct, Schumacher and Haug petitioned for bigger funding and they got it, Toto came in at the right time

Horners absolute commitment to zero objectivity in everything he does or thinks would grate on me, even if he was on my side.

Toto for that reason alone

I feel like one of the few who genuinely likes Horner. I also think he's severely underrated as a team principle. Of course he has the best in Adrian Newey, but with all the responsibilities of being a team principle, he's done a fantastic job. His Beyond the Grid podcast is worth a listen.

I like how Toto brought order to his team, but if I hired Christian Horner I'd get to flirt with Ginger every weekend.

Perhaps it would be useful to split the perceptions across the dimensions of:

• General team management,
• Engineering management,
• Competition strategy,
• Race tactics

My own general impressions:

• General team management - very close, Christian with a slight edge
• Engineering management - close, Toto with an edge
• Competition strategy - Toto
• Race tactics - Christian

JN23 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:01 am

Does Horner shoulder any blame for Red Bull’s relative lack of competitiveness from 2014-2020 and Red Bull falling out with Renault?

Of course he does, but, on his and the team's behalf, The Hybrid Renault engine was pretty abysmal for the time they ran them so he perhaps gets a bit of a pass on those seasons. Regardless, they've always been one of the most competitive teams while he's been at the helm.

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:21 pm

I like how Toto brought order to his team, but if I hired Christian Horner I'd get to flirt with Ginger every weekend.

Completely forgot about this. Lock the thread, we have an undisputed winner

Steam Coat Hun wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:06 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:21 pm

I like how Toto brought order to his team, but if I hired Christian Horner I'd get to flirt with Ginger every weekend.

Completely forgot about this. Lock the thread, we have an undisputed winner

Ooh - that's a little unfair on Suzie...

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:21 pm

I like how Toto brought order to his team, but if I hired Christian Horner I'd get to flirt with Ginger every weekend.

Sporty's phone number would be enough for me to hire Christian.

The issue I have with Horner, well one of them, is that i'm not entirely sure how much influence he has in the team.

I remember when RB were deciding to go with either Renault or Honda, i'm pretty sure Marko came out & said it'll be him & Mateschitz that'll be making the decision, not Horner. I'm sure Marko has tremendous influence as to who drivees not only for AT but also RB, maybe more than Horner. I'd hate to be in Horners position with Marko constantly lurking in the background.

In saying that though, i'd go with Wolff on this. I like his man management style better. A good example of this is how he's looked after Bottas for next season even though he had absolutely no obligation to do so. He was well within his rights to simply say '"Hasta La Vista Baby", but he didn't. Now compare that to how the RB drivers get treated.

Wolff comes across as a more magnanimous, objective & reasoned person, who seems to understands the balance between looking after both the team & the individual, whereas Horner comes across, with a few exceptions, as someone as who it's the team first, second & third.

I am surprised no one has mentioned Fred Vasseur yet. I think I would hire him. Great track record in the junior formulae, good sense of humour and politically savvy.

Delphic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:59 pm

I voted Horner cause I like his personality. He has this win at any cost mentality, which may toe the line occasionally.

Also, working in media corp myself, I interact with many Netflix peers who talk about DTS anecdotes, and based on that it seems Horner is very approachable and friendly.

However, the real test between the two really starts next season. New formula, so we will see whose approach pays off in the long run. If Wolf's team wins more WDCs with the new regs then Wolf would have done a better job than Horner. Wolf has obviously been more successful in the hybrid era. Horner winning one season doesnt make him a better team principal.

Want to bring this up, as I just thought about this thread after noticing Merc's struggles. I mentioned how each team comes into this year with the new regs will determine their vision and how they approach that.

Horner clearly is better than Toto in this aspect. If you think about it, his cars have been really good since a long time. If he had a decent engine he could very well have won more championships even in the hybrid era.
His pit crew is the best in the business. His strategy team is second to none, and he knows how to pick those low hanging fruits (e.g. Wheatley influencing Masi - it may be unsportsmanlike, but its not illegal and he knew that is a huge advantage towards winning).

At this point Red Bull as a team is miles and miles better than Merc. They went all in to win in 2021 and still have come with a great package in 2022. Merc looks like didn't take 2021 seriously, claiming to focus on 2022. You would have thought that by doing so they will come up with something with the new regs, but so far they have flopped massively.

Leaders are always held responsible for how their teams show up. Horner has gotten it right. Toto has not.

Delphic wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:52 pm

Delphic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:59 pm

I voted Horner cause I like his personality. He has this win at any cost mentality, which may toe the line occasionally.

Also, working in media corp myself, I interact with many Netflix peers who talk about DTS anecdotes, and based on that it seems Horner is very approachable and friendly.

However, the real test between the two really starts next season. New formula, so we will see whose approach pays off in the long run. If Wolf's team wins more WDCs with the new regs then Wolf would have done a better job than Horner. Wolf has obviously been more successful in the hybrid era. Horner winning one season doesnt make him a better team principal.

Want to bring this up, as I just thought about this thread after noticing Merc's struggles. I mentioned how each team comes into this year with the new regs will determine their vision and how they approach that.

Horner clearly is better than Toto in this aspect. If you think about it, his cars have been really good since a long time. If he had a decent engine he could very well have won more championships even in the hybrid era.
His pit crew is the best in the business. His strategy team is second to none, and he knows how to pick those low hanging fruits (e.g. Wheatley influencing Masi - it may be unsportsmanlike, but its not illegal and he knew that is a huge advantage towards winning).

At this point Red Bull as a team is miles and miles better than Merc. They went all in to win in 2021 and still have come with a great package in 2022. Merc looks like didn't take 2021 seriously, claiming to focus on 2022. You would have thought that by doing so they will come up with something with the new regs, but so far they have flopped massively.

Leaders are always held responsible for how their teams show up. Horner has gotten it right. Toto has not.

Do you not think that the fact RB have so often had the best car, is more down to a certain, well-known designer?

Other. I can't stand Horner, and I've had my doubts about Wolff even during the Rosberg era.

Toto. Horner can do one!

Delphic wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:52 pm

Delphic wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:59 pm

I voted Horner cause I like his personality. He has this win at any cost mentality, which may toe the line occasionally.

Also, working in media corp myself, I interact with many Netflix peers who talk about DTS anecdotes, and based on that it seems Horner is very approachable and friendly.

However, the real test between the two really starts next season. New formula, so we will see whose approach pays off in the long run. If Wolf's team wins more WDCs with the new regs then Wolf would have done a better job than Horner. Wolf has obviously been more successful in the hybrid era. Horner winning one season doesnt make him a better team principal.

Want to bring this up, as I just thought about this thread after noticing Merc's struggles. I mentioned how each team comes into this year with the new regs will determine their vision and how they approach that.

Horner clearly is better than Toto in this aspect. If you think about it, his cars have been really good since a long time. If he had a decent engine he could very well have won more championships even in the hybrid era.
His pit crew is the best in the business. His strategy team is second to none, and he knows how to pick those low hanging fruits (e.g. Wheatley influencing Masi - it may be unsportsmanlike, but its not illegal and he knew that is a huge advantage towards winning).

At this point Red Bull as a team is miles and miles better than Merc. They went all in to win in 2021 and still have come with a great package in 2022. Merc looks like didn't take 2021 seriously, claiming to focus on 2022. You would have thought that by doing so they will come up with something with the new regs, but so far they have flopped massively.

Leaders are always held responsible for how their teams show up. Horner has gotten it right. Toto has not.

But Mercedes had the best car by a mile in 2019 and 2020 and they ended 2021 with the best car again and I don' think you can say the engine was a large part of it. So far this year it looks like they got caught out with these new regulations but it's still early days. I mean, race 2 has not even happened yet. So it's too early to stick a fork in anyone I feel. I agree that Redbull's pitwall is superior but engineering wise I've still got to give it to Merc. As far as Toto vs Christian I prefer Toto. I just don't subscribe to Horner's bs antics, the way he chooses to throw his second drivers under the bus for Max and prefer the straight forward approach of Toto and how he manages his drivers. But those two have very little effect on what kind of car the team produces anyway. I'd say the drivers are more responsible for the car than the team principal, and the engineers and designers are the most responsible.