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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:35 pm
by Battle Far
Gotz, like history, will not care how he won, his name will be on the trophy. Neither will Auer or Ellis as Mercedes will have made sure they didn't lose out financially.
Cynically I suspect that KvdL's apology was motivated more by the torrent of abuse, from both social & conventional media that followed the race rather than remorse.
Even given my views I think that extreme social media abuse is inappropriate, abusers wouldn't say what they said to KvdL's face.
The behaviour of the Mercedes cars in the mid-field really showed the company's attitude to fair competition, as Nick Cassidy (Lawson's team mate, delayed in the same first corner incident) attempted to recover through the field he was persistently driven at or into by Mercedes drivers who ganged up in order to prevent him being able to do precisely what Mercedes were doing as a manufacturer, i.e. manipulating the result.
Shame that the CEO of Mercedes didn't directly receive some KvdL level abuse, that's the only thing that would change team behaviour.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:43 pm
by EPROM
Battle Far wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:35 pm
Shame that the CEO of Mercedes didn't directly receive some KvdL level abuse, that's the only thing that would change team behaviour.
As a general point, market forces imposed by racing fans may be small, but still may be influential in helping a manufacturer to behave in "appropriate" manners regarding that racing series. As they say in the US at least - "Vote with your feet." "Boycotts" need not be
official to have some influence.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
by pokerman
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:45 pm
by EPROM
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
Or two cars at all (even in a single team - by extension)? Granted, I may have missed some important history here.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
by Tufty
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:25 pm
by pokerman
EPROM wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:45 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
Or two cars at all (even in a single team - by extension)? Granted, I may have missed some important history here.
Indeed you probably have, there was a time when team orders were banned however I would say common sense came to the fore and the rule was rescinded, after all no single team gains or loses by that.
However collusion between 2 teams I would say is rather different, in this situation any team that's in a position to compete directly against Red Bull are put at a disadvantage.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:26 pm
by pokerman
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
There seems to be a few interested buyers around, they could be forced to sell in the interests of fair competition.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:31 pm
by Tufty
pokerman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:26 pm
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
There seems to be a few interested buyers around, they could be forced to sell in the interests of fair competition.
There's always interested buyers. But look how many of them it took for Aston Martin to exist, and what happened in the meantime to that team.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:20 am
by pokerman
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:26 pm
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
There seems to be a few interested buyers around, they could be forced to sell in the interests of fair competition.
There's always interested buyers. But look how many of them it took for Aston Martin to exist, and what happened in the meantime to that team.
As far as I'm aware nothing too much untoward, they had the third best car last year.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:49 am
by Tufty
pokerman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:20 am
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:26 pm
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:14 pm
I've not been reading the posts but in respect to Red Bull and AlphaTauri there is clearly collusion, I guess ultimately if the sister team is able to overly influence the outcome of the title then there might be an enquiry into should one person be allowed to own two teams.
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
There seems to be a few interested buyers around, they could be forced to sell in the interests of fair competition.
There's always interested buyers. But look how many of them it took for Aston Martin to exist, and what happened in the meantime to that team.
As far as I'm aware nothing too much untoward, they had the third best car last year.
Of the owners since Jordan sold up:
Midland. Didn't even last 2 full seasons (and less than one under their own name).
Spyker. Did a season and 3 races.
Force India. Came good, but with the tiny flaw that they ended up not paying their staff, and the boss was wanted for some pretty major financial irregularities.
Aston Martin. Hard to tell so far but part of the motivation was getting a seat for Lance. And of course the questionable ethics behind the pink Mercedes.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:46 pm
by pokerman
Tufty wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:49 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:20 am
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:26 pm
Tufty wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:29 am
The outcome will simply be that F1 doesn't want to risk losing a solid midfield team.
There seems to be a few interested buyers around, they could be forced to sell in the interests of fair competition.
There's always interested buyers. But look how many of them it took for Aston Martin to exist, and what happened in the meantime to that team.
As far as I'm aware nothing too much untoward, they had the third best car last year.
Of the owners since Jordan sold up:
Midland. Didn't even last 2 full seasons (and less than one under their own name).
Spyker. Did a season and 3 races.
Force India. Came good, but with the tiny flaw that they ended up not paying their staff, and the boss was wanted for some pretty major financial irregularities.
Aston Martin. Hard to tell so far but part of the motivation was getting a seat for Lance. And of course the questionable ethics behind the pink Mercedes.
Clearly the people buying into F1 now are far more professional than in the past, the level of investment of the Stroll consortium far exceeds that of the original team Jordan, and look at the branding Aston Martin compared to the name of a flamboyant Irishman.
Then the latest acquisition we see is of the Williams team which was being run into the ground and now is being turned around by people with the necessary budget and business acumen, that seems to be working better than nepotism.
Re: Why Team Orders Stink...
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:54 pm
by Battle Far
Gerhard Berger wrote:Speaking to the Bild, Berger admitted that he wasn’t impressed by the events at the Norisring, acknowledging that the DTM failed to deliver a compelling title decider to its fans.
"Honestly, I slept really badly the last few nights,” Berger said. “I've been a motorsport fan through and through for 40 years and my sportsman's heart can't cope with such artificial changes of position.
"Both topics, the Mercedes team order and van der Linde's manoeuvre, have not only triggered discussions, but have done damage to the DTM.
...
“Of course, the issue is not new in sport. In Formula 1 in particular, there are many examples that are unacceptable from a sporting point of view, both from the fans' and the other teams' point of view.
“I only have to remind you of the wave of outrage Ferrari was confronted with from the fans when Rubens Barrichello gave up victory for Michael Schumacher [in Austria in 2002]
“In our case, however, we are talking about a cross-team arrangement [between Winward and HRT]. That is a completely different quality again, which I cannot accept either sportingly or personally on our platform.
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