Who has more to prove?

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Who has more to prove?

Lewis Hamilton
1
3%
Max Verstappen
28
97%
 
Total votes: 29

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Alienturnedhuman
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Who has more to prove?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Hamilton hypothesised that Max has more to prove as it’s his first time fighting for the championship, meanwhile Ricciardo commented that Hamilton has proven his worth this season with the way he’s fought for victories. Certainly, there is a prevailing stance on social media that Hamilton is finally proving himself against a driver of Max’s stature - thus implying that Max has already proven his worth. So it begs the question, which one of them does have more to prove?

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Verstappen obviously. Needs to win his first title in single seater racing.
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
...but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.
At least Hamilton keeps his bad behaviour off the track unlike three drivers that spring to mind.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Asphalt_World »

How could Lewis possibly have more to prove than any other current F1 driver?
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Re: Who has more to prove?

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F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:22 pm
Verstappen obviously. Needs to win his first title in single seater racing.
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
...but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.
At least Hamilton keeps his bad behaviour off the track unlike three drivers that spring to mind.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Hamilton has absolutely nothing to prove in motorsport. You don't need to like him to acknowledge that - personally I find Hamilton quite hard to like outside of the car.

There will always be debate about how great he is and where he ranks in terms of GOAT - but he is definitely one of the best F1 drivers of all time, fully deserves to be in the conversation regarding the GOAT and statistically is the sports most successful driver.

Yip, he has lucked out a bit with this Mercedes team, but he still has to deliver.

Verstappen is clearly very good but we have yet to see him in a title capable car and in a title battle. That isn't his fault - it is just how the sport is at the moment and he hasn't had any opportunity to get a title winning seat. Perhaps this season will be the chance (although I cannot help but feel Mercedes are turning the screw now they are on top of the car)
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Flash2k11 »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.

No shame, it's more of his perfectly prepared mind games. And he is right too, if Verstappen doesn't make this season stick in what currently look like close enough cars for the drivers to make a difference, then his entire legacy is at stake. Lewis' legacy has long been sewn in the tapestry of F1.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

Flash2k11 wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:45 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.

No shame, it's more of his perfectly prepared mind games. And he is right too, if Verstappen doesn't make this season stick in what currently look like close enough cars for the drivers to make a difference, then his entire legacy is at stake. Lewis' legacy has long been sewn in the tapestry of F1.
I find it hard to believe that someone needing to draw attention to his own stats is playing mind games and not displaying his insecurities - Hamilton knows that the stats are all he has to fall back on at the end of the day, as no matter what his record says there will always be the asterisk of how much was him and how much was the car. If anyone can win the title in that machinery (as long as they beat a lowly Bottas), the stats don't add any value to the claim of greatness.

When the cars are close enough we have seen Verstappen taking the fight to Hamilton - shame that this year is trending towards another one of the easy Merc wins. 8 titles, and still the man will feel the need to tell people "look how good I am, swear it's all me".

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Option or Prime »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.
Not at all sure this is proof of insecurity. It is well known that top performers and ultimately champions often triumph because of metal toughness.

Take the close quarter battles for example. By saying "I think I have done well to avoid all the incidents, but we have 19 more [races] and we could connect. He feels he perhaps has a lot to prove. I'm not in the same boat." Hamilton is putting the onus on Verstappen to avoid contact at the next Grand Prix, one of the tightest of the season.

I think he is playing on the fact that Verstappen gets very emotional during races and applying additional psychological pressure.

Its a results business with Hamilton 3-1 up at some point Verstappen has to start winning races if he DNFs then the job becomes much more difficult.

The next couple of Grand Prix might set the trend for the season. Hamilton is just indulging in a bit of gamesmanship.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.
Not at all sure this is proof of insecurity. It is well known that top performers and ultimately champions often triumph because of metal toughness.

Take the close quarter battles for example. By saying "I think I have done well to avoid all the incidents, but we have 19 more [races] and we could connect. He feels he perhaps has a lot to prove. I'm not in the same boat." Hamilton is putting the onus on Verstappen to avoid contact at the next Grand Prix, one of the tightest of the season.

I think he is playing on the fact that Verstappen gets very emotional during races and applying additional psychological pressure.

Its a results business with Hamilton 3-1 up at some point Verstappen has to start winning races if he DNFs then the job becomes much more difficult.

The next couple of Grand Prix might set the trend for the season. Hamilton is just indulging in a bit of gamesmanship.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Exediron »

Max, of course. Lewis has nothing left to prove.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Option or Prime »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:05 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.
Not at all sure this is proof of insecurity. It is well known that top performers and ultimately champions often triumph because of metal toughness.

Take the close quarter battles for example. By saying "I think I have done well to avoid all the incidents, but we have 19 more [races] and we could connect. He feels he perhaps has a lot to prove. I'm not in the same boat." Hamilton is putting the onus on Verstappen to avoid contact at the next Grand Prix, one of the tightest of the season.

I think he is playing on the fact that Verstappen gets very emotional during races and applying additional psychological pressure.

Its a results business with Hamilton 3-1 up at some point Verstappen has to start winning races if he DNFs then the job becomes much more difficult.

The next couple of Grand Prix might set the trend for the season. Hamilton is just indulging in a bit of gamesmanship.
He feels the need to draw attention to his own success. Classic narcissism which stems from insecurity.

This is exactly what he displayed when he lost in 2016 to Rosberg ("let him celebrate, it's the first time in his life he has ever beaten me") - it is a clear pattern throughout his career.
That a bit excessive I'm afraid. He is supremely confident which is what you would expect from a multiple world champion.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

I don't recognise those symptoms in Hamilton. He praised Rosberg's win, has a real sense of importance, (7 time champion) and show considerable empathy with the disabled, disadvantaged and discriminated.

I get that you prefer Verstappen as a driver but Hamilton has nothing to prove, he has proven it nearly 100 times over.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by tootsie323 »

Yes, clearly Verstappen, solely on the basis of relative stats and experience. I think that Hamilton's 'marathon not a sprint' comment is a bit wide of the mark in implying that Verstappen has the 'sprint' mentality - he has been repeating his 'it's a long season' mantra and, I think, is keeping his head firmly screwed on in this respect.
As for the assertion that Hamilton has made his comments out of insecurity or arrogance - disagree. There will always be an element of mind games in these battles and successful sportspeople do not achieve what they do without self-confidence.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Asphalt_World »

I think it's fair to say that Lewis has had a small victory in the first psychological game of the season!
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Re: Who has more to prove?

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Asphalt_World wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:27 am
I think it's fair to say that Lewis has had a small victory in the first psychological game of the season!
Hamilton knows that Verstappen bins it here quite a lot. Turn up the heat and see if he breaks. Might even make Verstappen cautious in FP, Q1 and Q2 which could lead to a crash in Q3.

Of course now Hamilton will bin it in FP3 for maximum egg on my face. Will even up the WDC nicely though!
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Siao7 »

Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.
Not at all sure this is proof of insecurity. It is well known that top performers and ultimately champions often triumph because of metal toughness.

Take the close quarter battles for example. By saying "I think I have done well to avoid all the incidents, but we have 19 more [races] and we could connect. He feels he perhaps has a lot to prove. I'm not in the same boat." Hamilton is putting the onus on Verstappen to avoid contact at the next Grand Prix, one of the tightest of the season.

I think he is playing on the fact that Verstappen gets very emotional during races and applying additional psychological pressure.

Its a results business with Hamilton 3-1 up at some point Verstappen has to start winning races if he DNFs then the job becomes much more difficult.

The next couple of Grand Prix might set the trend for the season. Hamilton is just indulging in a bit of gamesmanship.
This. But obviously Max is the one driver that doesn't give a sh*t about these things, so there's that

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Exediron »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, this would actually be the first time Hamilton has beaten a driver rated as highly as himself, at the time, for a world championship.

When he beat (if you want to call it that) Alonso, neither one got the title. When he beat Vettel, what generally happened is that Vettel's reputation went down -- and that was later confirmed to be accurate.

Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle. Hamilton has nothing to prove, but this is a potentially more important fight for his legacy than he's had in a long while.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 10:07 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 9:05 pm
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:57 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 7:18 pm
I would say obviously Verstappen has more to prove, but it is illuminating to see Hamilton's insecurity and pompousness with his comments on this.

“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

As I said on another thread - shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. Clearly the mentality did not include any humility.
Not at all sure this is proof of insecurity. It is well known that top performers and ultimately champions often triumph because of metal toughness.

Take the close quarter battles for example. By saying "I think I have done well to avoid all the incidents, but we have 19 more [races] and we could connect. He feels he perhaps has a lot to prove. I'm not in the same boat." Hamilton is putting the onus on Verstappen to avoid contact at the next Grand Prix, one of the tightest of the season.

I think he is playing on the fact that Verstappen gets very emotional during races and applying additional psychological pressure.

Its a results business with Hamilton 3-1 up at some point Verstappen has to start winning races if he DNFs then the job becomes much more difficult.

The next couple of Grand Prix might set the trend for the season. Hamilton is just indulging in a bit of gamesmanship.
He feels the need to draw attention to his own success. Classic narcissism which stems from insecurity.

This is exactly what he displayed when he lost in 2016 to Rosberg ("let him celebrate, it's the first time in his life he has ever beaten me") - it is a clear pattern throughout his career.
That a bit excessive I'm afraid. He is supremely confident which is what you would expect from a multiple world champion.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

I don't recognise those symptoms in Hamilton. He praised Rosberg's win, has a real sense of importance, (7 time champion) and show considerable empathy with the disabled, disadvantaged and discriminated.

I get that you prefer Verstappen as a driver but Hamilton has nothing to prove, he has proven it nearly 100 times over.
I recognize these symptoms in my experience as an armchair psychologist - especially the excessive need for attention (just look at his clothes before the Hilfiger deal) and the inflated sense of his own importance (look up his Instagram posts if you don't believe me).

You should look up what he said about Rosberg's win, not the PR statements afterward (ditto for his alleged empathy towards the underprivileged). The "real" Hamilton comes out at times, and it isn't a pretty sight.

As for Verstappen vs. Hamilton - if you read my first comment I have already said it is obviously Verstappen who has to prove himself - I am not arguing otherwise.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
I know, I know, I wasn't trying to insult the poll. I guess I expected a conversation, not a poll!

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by DOLOMITE »

I think anyone that feels Hamilton still has something to prove hasn't been watching F1 closely for the last 15 years.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle.
It's interesting because it's happened more times than you think.

Fangio vs Moss (Moss was a contractual number 2 in 1955, Fangio won in 1956 and 1957), Lauda vs Prost (Lauda won Round 1 due to reliability, lost Round 2), Schumacher vs Raikkonen (Schumacher won in far superior machinery) and Schumacher vs Alonso (Alonso won)

We've only been denied Clark vs Stewart in the early 1970s and Senna vs Schumacher in the late 1990s.

Problem for Hamilton is that his legacy will only be strengthened if Verstappen is perceived to have had the mechanical potential to beat Hamilton. The narrative is already being built that Verstappen never had a chance due to car disadvantage (and that may be the case) but it's so early to see his advocates on the defensive.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:18 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle.
It's interesting because it's happened more times than you think.

Fangio vs Moss (Moss was a contractual number 2 in 1955, Fangio won in 1956 and 1957), Lauda vs Prost (Lauda won Round 1 due to reliability, lost Round 2), Schumacher vs Raikkonen (Schumacher won in far superior machinery) and Schumacher vs Alonso (Alonso won)

We've only been denied Clark vs Stewart in the early 1970s and Senna vs Schumacher in the late 1990s.

Problem for Hamilton is that his legacy will only be strengthened if Verstappen is perceived to have had the mechanical potential to beat Hamilton. The narrative is already being built that Verstappen never had a chance due to car disadvantage (and that may be the case) but it's so early to see his advocates on the defensive.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:18 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle.
It's interesting because it's happened more times than you think.

Fangio vs Moss (Moss was a contractual number 2 in 1955, Fangio won in 1956 and 1957), Lauda vs Prost (Lauda won Round 1 due to reliability, lost Round 2), Schumacher vs Raikkonen (Schumacher won in far superior machinery) and Schumacher vs Alonso (Alonso won)

We've only been denied Clark vs Stewart in the early 1970s and Senna vs Schumacher in the late 1990s.

Problem for Hamilton is that his legacy will only be strengthened if Verstappen is perceived to have had the mechanical potential to beat Hamilton. The narrative is already being built that Verstappen never had a chance due to car disadvantage (and that may be the case) but it's so early to see his advocates on the defensive.
Is that really a "narrative that is being built", or simply the absolute truth? You seem to be having difficulty distinguishing between the two. If it is Verstappen advocates who are being defensive and "building this narrative", I urge you to please show me how Verstappen could have challenged Hamilton for the title all these years and failed.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Fiki »

Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, this would actually be the first time Hamilton has beaten a driver rated as highly as himself, at the time, for a world championship.

When he beat (if you want to call it that) Alonso, neither one got the title. When he beat Vettel, what generally happened is that Vettel's reputation went down -- and that was later confirmed to be accurate.

Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle. Hamilton has nothing to prove, but this is a potentially more important fight for his legacy than he's had in a long while.
I think you're right.

Your post had me going back in time to the Senna/Prost era, and the anticipation we felt first when Senna got into F1, and then when he joined McLaren alongside the world champion.

Perhaps there is something Hamilton can still prove; that he can be competitive against Verstappen in the same team. Whether that would need to be Mercedes or Red Bull, or a different team altogether is another matter.
Last edited by Fiki on Thu May 20, 2021 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:33 am
Not in 2003 he didn't
I'd firmly argue that the F2003-GA was a superior car to the MP4-17D (the FW25 is another story), I wasn't specific enough in my summary. People are quick to extrapolate from post-2007 Raikkonen and his battles with Alonso in 2014 and Vettel in 2015-2018 and assume that Raikkonen had a faster car than Schumacher in 2003.

Within the the context of the sport in the early 2000's with the importance of the tyre war and good set-up was an environment the extracted the very best out of Raikkonen and elevated him to the ascendancy like Vettel in 2011 and 2013. I think Schumacher would have had to be at his very best to beat Raikkonen if he'd swapped seats with Coulthard in 2003.
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:40 am
Is that really a "narrative that is being built", or simply the absolute truth?
I'm speaking purely about the battle this year where there is too much uncertainty at the moment to say that Mercedes is comfortably the better car. People should wait until the summer break really.
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:40 am
I urge you to please show me how Verstappen could have challenged Hamilton for the title all these years and failed.
I'm completely open-minded that the 2021 season could be a false dawn for Verstappen vs Hamilton, I think people are being hasty. It's the best car Verstappen has had in his career and remains to be seen whether it's capable to propel him for the whole season. Lots of reverse extrapolation going on under the assumption that as Hamilton has prevailed in 3/4 Grand Prix so far, his car must be significantly better.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:40 am
Is that really a "narrative that is being built", or simply the absolute truth?
I'm speaking purely about the battle this year where there is too much uncertainty at the moment to say that Mercedes is comfortably the better car. People should wait until the summer break really.
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:40 am
I urge you to please show me how Verstappen could have challenged Hamilton for the title all these years and failed.
I'm completely open-minded that the 2021 season could be a false dawn for Verstappen vs Hamilton, I think people are being hasty. It's the best car Verstappen has had in his career and remains to be seen whether it's capable to propel him for the whole season. Lots of reverse extrapolation going on under the assumption that as Hamilton has prevailed in 3/4 Grand Prix so far, his car must be significantly better.
Agree with this :thumbup:

I do think the Merc overall seems to have a slight advantage over the RBR, but Hamilton has also maximized his chances (along with the huge slice of luck in Imola). Hopefully they stay close, but the pessimist in me sees this being yet another easy walkover for Hamilton the way things are trending.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:33 am
Not in 2003 he didn't
I'd firmly argue that the F2003-GA was a superior car to the MP4-17D (the FW25 is another story), I wasn't specific enough in my summary. People are quick to extrapolate from post-2007 Raikkonen and his battles with Alonso in 2014 and Vettel in 2015-2018 and assume that Raikkonen had a faster car than Schumacher in 2003.

Within the the context of the sport in the early 2000's with the importance of the tyre war and good set-up was an environment the extracted the very best out of Raikkonen and elevated him to the ascendancy like Vettel in 2011 and 2013. I think Schumacher would have had to be at his very best to beat Raikkonen if he'd swapped seats with Coulthard in 2003.
2003 was a peculiar year, the Ferrari was arguably the better car, but was not nice to it's tyres. The Macca never raced their latest car as it had problems, the car they raced was the evolution of the 2002 model. Overall it balanced out and they ended up pretty much equal in points. But my argument was the "far superior machinery", it just wasn't the case. Remember that they had some races that they wanted to forget, like being famously lapped in Hungary by Alonso or barely winning the WDC with an 8th place in the last race...

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:45 am
2003 was a peculiar year, the Ferrari was arguably the better car, but was not nice to it's tyres. The Macca never raced their latest car as it had problems, the car they raced was the evolution of the 2002 model. Overall it balanced out and they ended up pretty much equal in points. But my argument was the "far superior machinery", it just wasn't the case. Remember that they had some races that they wanted to forget, like being famously lapped in Hungary by Alonso or barely winning the WDC with an 8th place in the last race...
I'll concede I exaggerated. I do think Raikkonen gets a lot of stick when his performances were excellent from 2003-2006 and worthy of the two world titles he narrowly missed out on.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:51 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:45 am
2003 was a peculiar year, the Ferrari was arguably the better car, but was not nice to it's tyres. The Macca never raced their latest car as it had problems, the car they raced was the evolution of the 2002 model. Overall it balanced out and they ended up pretty much equal in points. But my argument was the "far superior machinery", it just wasn't the case. Remember that they had some races that they wanted to forget, like being famously lapped in Hungary by Alonso or barely winning the WDC with an 8th place in the last race...
I'll concede I exaggerated. I do think Raikkonen gets a lot of stick when his performances were excellent from 2003-2006 and worthy of the two world titles he narrowly missed out on.
Absolutely agree. I wonder if his later years would be seen differently if he was a 2xWDC by the time he moved to Ferrari.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:55 am
Absolutely agree. I wonder if his later years would be seen differently if he was a 2xWDC by the time he moved to Ferrari.
A lot like Vettel now I imagine. Only a triple champion version. 2014 would have murdered his reputation like Vettel's 2020 (and 2021 at the moment) did.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, this would actually be the first time Hamilton has beaten a driver rated as highly as himself, at the time, for a world championship.

When he beat (if you want to call it that) Alonso, neither one got the title. When he beat Vettel, what generally happened is that Vettel's reputation went down -- and that was later confirmed to be accurate.

Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle. Hamilton has nothing to prove, but this is a potentially more important fight for his legacy than he's had in a long while.
I think you're right.

Your post had me going back in time to the Senna/Prost era, and the anticipation we felt first when Senna got into F1, and then when he joined McLaren alongside the world champion.

Perhaps there is something Hamilton can still prove; that he can be competitive against Verstappen in the same team. Whether that would need to be Mercedes or Red Bull, or a different team altogether is another matter.
Hamilton has to prove he can be competitive against Max, in your example it was Senna who had to prove himself against Prost, the guy who was not a world champion.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 12:43 pm
Fiki wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:19 am
Well this will be a very one-sided poll, asking if the most successful driver ever has much to prove...
I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, this would actually be the first time Hamilton has beaten a driver rated as highly as himself, at the time, for a world championship.

When he beat (if you want to call it that) Alonso, neither one got the title. When he beat Vettel, what generally happened is that Vettel's reputation went down -- and that was later confirmed to be accurate.

Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle. Hamilton has nothing to prove, but this is a potentially more important fight for his legacy than he's had in a long while.
I think you're right.

Your post had me going back in time to the Senna/Prost era, and the anticipation we felt first when Senna got into F1, and then when he joined McLaren alongside the world champion.

Perhaps there is something Hamilton can still prove; that he can be competitive against Verstappen in the same team. Whether that would need to be Mercedes or Red Bull, or a different team altogether is another matter.
Hamilton has to prove he can be competitive against Max, in your example it was Senna who had to prove himself against Prost, the guy who was not a world champion.
Indeed. Which of those two challenges for Hamilton would you say is more.. erm... challenging? ;-)
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by karas »

Obviously Max. Depends on what your looking for, you could say both. I read hamilton comment as in more to do with avoiding crashes that seem like f1 want them to have.

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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Good_Year »

This will be the first time max will seriously be in a championship fight.

You would hope that he makes it to round 20, its ok if he doesn't win but if can stay the course he will hopefully learn some things.

Essentially they need to keep the fight going longer than ferrari did in 17 and 18 in my opinion. And If max is destroyed then he may never win a title, the next champion might be Charles or Lando.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by Exediron »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 10:18 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle.
It's interesting because it's happened more times than you think.

Fangio vs Moss (Moss was a contractual number 2 in 1955, Fangio won in 1956 and 1957), Lauda vs Prost (Lauda won Round 1 due to reliability, lost Round 2), Schumacher vs Raikkonen (Schumacher won in far superior machinery) and Schumacher vs Alonso (Alonso won)

We've only been denied Clark vs Stewart in the early 1970s and Senna vs Schumacher in the late 1990s.

Problem for Hamilton is that his legacy will only be strengthened if Verstappen is perceived to have had the mechanical potential to beat Hamilton. The narrative is already being built that Verstappen never had a chance due to car disadvantage (and that may be the case) but it's so early to see his advocates on the defensive.
Fangio and Moss is a bit of a weird one, owing to the huge differences in F1 during the 1950s. Their age gap certainly suggests they belonged to different generations, but Moss was a full-time F1 driver for half of Fangio's F1 career. On the whole, I would agree this is an example of a top driver going up against the best of the next generation and winning.

I personally see Clark and Stewart as too close to be considered different generations. Clark was only 3 years older than Stewart, and the only reason they didn't overlap for much of their careers is because Clark was killed; Prost and Senna were further apart in age than Clark and Stewart. Instead, I would probably say that the miss was seeing Stewart go up against Lauda, as Lauda only got into a competitive car the year after Stewart retired.

Lauda vs. Prost is a solid example of one generation going up against another, but although Lauda did win the championship, Prost proved himself decisively quicker during their time together.

Senna vs. Schumacher is indeed a miss, albeit a narrow one. We were on course to get it in 1994, and it didn't look like going Senna's way.

And finally, Schumacher vs. Raikkonen or Alonso. I wouldn't agree with Raikkonen. Kimi was never the best of his generation. Alonso certainly was, but as you highlighted Schumi didn't beat him. Alonso then lost to the best of the next generation, and that driver (Hamilton) has yet to see his time on the top end.

Personally, I would only classify Fangio/Moss and Lauda/Prost as examples of the best of one generation going up against the best of the next in an equal fight and winning. However, I don't think Hamilton would be particularly happy with a Lauda-style victory over Verstappen.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:41 pm
Instead, I would probably say that the miss was seeing Stewart go up against Lauda, as Lauda only got into a competitive car the year after Stewart retired.
Good call. It could even have been Clark vs Lauda but people tend to compartmentalise Clark in a different era. It's quite jarring to think he could have battled Stewart, Rindt and Fittipaldi.
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:41 pm
We were on course to get it in 1994, and it didn't look like going Senna's way.
I think we were denied a titanic battle over both 1994 and 1995 with Senna easily winning 1996 and 1997. Schumacher clearly got under Senna's skin but I think he would have at least shared one title each.
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:41 pm
I wouldn't agree with Raikkonen. Kimi was never the best of his generation. Alonso certainly was, but as you highlighted Schumi didn't beat him.
I'd challenge anyone to watch Raikkonen's campaigns in 2003 and 2005 and seriously claim they weren't watching one of the fastest drivers of that generation. He came undone with control tyres and his unwillingness to adapt. 2003 alone where he took the title battle to the final race in the 3rd best car puts him in the conversation.

Raikkonen was simply a contextual great much like Vettel was.
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:41 pm
However, I don't think Hamilton would be particularly happy with a Lauda-style victory over Verstappen.
Hamilton definitely shouldn't be happy with that but he's still at his peak and should be far more competitive than Lauda was in 1984 and 1985.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 12:43 pm
Fiki wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:18 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:01 am


I think that it is obvious the poll isn't actually about the answer to the question!

Obviously the answer is Max, and if there were any votes for Hamilton it would be a measure of the person casting that vote rather than adding uncertainty to the answer of the question.

It just struck me how all the narrative of the season was more about Hamilton validating his success by beating rather than Max validating his potential against the most successful driver the sport has seen. I also think that might be behind Hamilton's emphasis of his stats in the quote (that we don't have the context for) from Hamilton earlier in this thread. I suspect it's a little bit bemusing for Hamilton having broken or equalled every significant record to have it suggested this is the battle to end all battles, when in reality it's his 11th legitimate title fight. He's beaten Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car, and beaten Vettel in two seasons where the cars were roughly equal. Yet for some reason it's this one that's suddenly the most important.

The stupidity of the poll question is essentially to highlight that point.
Well, to play Devil's Advocate, this would actually be the first time Hamilton has beaten a driver rated as highly as himself, at the time, for a world championship.

When he beat (if you want to call it that) Alonso, neither one got the title. When he beat Vettel, what generally happened is that Vettel's reputation went down -- and that was later confirmed to be accurate.

Now, Hamilton has the chance to do something that very few (if any) historical greats have done: beat arguably the best driver of the next generation in a championship battle. Hamilton has nothing to prove, but this is a potentially more important fight for his legacy than he's had in a long while.
I think you're right.

Your post had me going back in time to the Senna/Prost era, and the anticipation we felt first when Senna got into F1, and then when he joined McLaren alongside the world champion.

Perhaps there is something Hamilton can still prove; that he can be competitive against Verstappen in the same team. Whether that would need to be Mercedes or Red Bull, or a different team altogether is another matter.
Hamilton has to prove he can be competitive against Max, in your example it was Senna who had to prove himself against Prost, the guy who was not a world champion.
Indeed. Which of those two challenges for Hamilton would you say is more.. erm... challenging? ;-)
I don't understand much of what you're saying beyond a 7 time world champion needing to prove himself against a driver that's never won a car title.
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Re: Who has more to prove?

Post by WHoff78 »

Thing is that Hamilton has nothing to prove but at the same time he absolutely relishes the challenge. That is part of the reason he is so successful and despite his 7 titles he'll go into the fight with more respect for the challenger than Max will. The spectator is the only guaranteed winner if Red Bull can stay in the fight.

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