planetf1.com

I was asked to run this sortable poll by Alienturnedhuman. In their own words, which I have not edited in any way:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:Basically, with the discussion of Hamilton vs Schumacher people are discussing over how their competition stacked up and how their good their support drivers were etc... so I thought it would be a good idea to run a poll where people can rank the 'wingmen' drivers from the last 20 years or so. Mostly Schumacher's and Hamilton's - but figured I would stick in Webber (to Vettel, who wasn't subserviant, but was essentially relegated to a number 2 role) and also Coulthard who was basically Mika's back up in most seasons against Ferrari (see Australia '98)

PS you are the best mod

1. Barrichello

Barrichello was incredible in the setup and development of the great Ferrari's of 2001-2004 and was instrumental in Schumacher's 2003 triumph when he struggled to set up the car. Did everything required of him to clinch 5 consecutive WCCs.

2. Bottas

Bottas is a superb wingman and a key reason for Mercedes 4 consecutive WCCs since he joined the team. He is a very safe pair of hands with an incredibly low crash rate, unlike some of the drivers below and puts the car in Q3 without fail.

3. Massa

A capable number two to Schumacher but less effective with Alonso. Backed up Raikkonen's 2007 challenge well and made a big contribution to the WCC in 2008. Also one of two drivers on this list with a legitimate title challenge.

4. Irvine

A solid driver but less influential on Ferrari than Barrichello. Did a good job securing the WCC in 1999 but didn't have the speed to beat Hakkinen in arguably superior machinery.

5. Webber

A quick guy in the tyre war era who never got to grip with the Pirellis or EBD cars. He could have been a team leader in his own right but he prospects faded with the change in formula. His lack of adaptability cost him.

6. Coulthard

Terrible wingman at Williams in 1995 costing them the WCC but improved a McLaren with the WCC in 1998. Possibly robbed of a proper championship battle with Schumacher in 2001 with the legalisation of traction control that strongly suited Schumacher.

7. Kovalainen

Made Fisichella look bad but then got broke by Hamilton. Looked okay against an old Jarno Trulli.

Just saw this on Reddit, ranking number 2 drivers by their second place finishes:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _the_most/

I personally see Barrichello and Bottas as similar level; both were standout drivers in the midfield before being promoted to the top team alongside the best driver in the sport, and while both failed to mount any real challenge against their WDC teammate, neither truly disgraced themselves either.

I would see Massa, Irvine, Webber, and Coulthard being in a group behind. All were clearly outpaced by their teammate (with Coulthard probably the least so, at least at McLaren), but above average F1 drivers in their day.

Kovelainen would clearly take up the back for me. He was utterly out of his depth at a frontrunning team, and failed to provide the support McLaren needed in 2008 to take the WCC.

In the end, I've gone for:

1) Bottas -- Truly the ultimate wingman. Close enough in qualifying to get ahead of the enemy, not close enough in the race to take points off his teammate.

2) Barrichello -- Not nearly as close to his teammate (although race fuel qualifying muddies the picture) and that makes him slip a little.

3) Coulthard -- I'm judging mostly by the McLaren years here, when he was quite strong

4) Massa -- Not really quick enough, but he gets the nod over Webber for temperament.

5) Irvine -- Similar to Massa. I view the two quite interchangeably.

6) Webber -- Quicker than the above two at his peak, but he spent too much time fighting his teammate to earn the true Wingman award.

7) Kovelainen -- Just not good enough at the front.

Here is how I voted in the poll:

1	Bottas
2	Coulthard
3	Barrichello
4	Webber
5	Massa
6	Irvine
7	Kovalainen

Bottas has fearsome pace on his day, and even for Lewis he is just barely out of reach. He just needs to bring it to the track more often.

Coulthard had days where he destroyed the competition, but he also threw away some good opportunities that his raw performance had earned.

Barrichello I might be underrating here but he was beaten by Button before he really fell off his cliff, and I can't see the 2 above doing that.

Webber I see as about the same as Rubens, hard to choose there.

Massa is a strange one. The only one on the list who was (briefly) world champion, but in one of the most mistake-ridden campaigns I can remember.

Irvine I never knew where to rate. I think Jaguar, bad as those cars were, really showed his limits. The 1999 title chase was only on because the Ferrari that year was the best car - as proved by them taking the WCC without Schumacher for half of it. Salo isn't *that* good.

Kovalainen only got the McLaren seat through luck. As with Bottas he had the pace on occasion, but never when he had to face one of the title contenders.

Is this supposed to be ranking them on ability or how good they were as a wingman? I put Webber bottom assuming the latter, as the team dynamic within Red Bull was far from harmonious and he only played the support role because he couldn't keep up with Vettel. On ability alone, I'd have put him second to Barrichello.

j man wrote: ↑

Mon May 17, 2021 8:29 pm

Is this supposed to be ranking them on ability or how good they were as a wingman? I put Webber bottom assuming the latter, as the team dynamic within Red Bull was far from harmonious and he only played the support role because he couldn't keep up with Vettel. On ability alone, I'd have put him second to Barrichello.

I have learned on this forum not to be overly detailed with the poll criteria because someone always comes along with a clever asterix to explain some bizarre ordering, so it's easier just to leave it up to interpretation. But my intention was how these drivers rate against each other as barometers for measuring the driver they were wingmen to.

Not at how subservient or compliant they were.

Barrichello and Bottas are the best two drivers, however Bottas has a much better opportunity to achieve at Mercedes than Barrichello at Ferrari.

Barrichello was in Michael Schumachers team and "equality" was no consideration of Ferrari. Michael got new parts earlier (if only one was available) and in 2002 and 2005 got the new car an entire race earlier.

Also the way the the point system was back then, 10-6-4, just having one driver winning races was usually enough for the WDC and WCC. The number 2 was not needed as much as today with 25-18-15 and especially 10-8-6. It made much more sense under the 10-6-4 to put everything behind the better driver, new chassis, best engines off the dyno, best engineers, best mechanics (there is a reason why Michael had 1 mechnical DNF in 5 years and Rubens had 8 in that time period) etc etc

Mercedes seem obsessed with equality and rules of strategic engagement and two drivers are needed to guarantee a WCC these days, Red Bull are getting a harsh lesson in that this year. Can you imagine Brawn and Schumacher letting Barrichello back through when he was in the middle of a title run in like Hamilton did in Hungary 2017.

Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑

Mon May 17, 2021 7:46 pm

Just saw this on Reddit, ranking number 2 drivers by their second place finishes:
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... _the_most/

Interesting, but flawed I think. It should only really count second places while the drivers were number 2 drivers in a top team. Otherwise it's just a ranking of their second places across a career. We know that someone like Webber took a very long time to get in a competitive car, compared to someone like Verstappen.

When was Verstappen ever a number 2 driver?

For me this is a really hard question to answer. Are we ranking based on their ability to act as a wingman and take points away from other drivers? If so, then Barrichello would be my obvious pick. Never really quick enough to consistently challenge Michael, but always up there. Always taking points away from opposing team drivers.

Bottas for me hasn't really filled this role that well. He is cracking quick on his best days, but often is down the order. Hamilton has done well out of having a teammate who can't consistently challenge him, rather than having a teammate that supported him.

Webber was never really a wingman. He had his own ambitions and came very close to taking a title. On his day he was also unbeatable. But it never really looked like he was supporting Seb.

Massa reign as the most overrated driver of all time continues I see.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 6:45 am

Massa reign as the most overrated driver of all time continues I see.

Why? Massa was a reasonable wingman for Schumacher and Raikkonen and almost won the WDC himself. That places him above Coulthard for me who's opportunity to challenge Schumacher fizzled out completely in 2001 after being on similar points before Monaco. He also cost Williams and McLaren the WCC in 1995 and 1999 respectively.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 9:52 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 6:45 am

Massa reign as the most overrated driver of all time continues I see.

Why? Massa was a reasonable wingman for Schumacher and Raikkonen and almost won the WDC himself. That places him above Coulthard for me who's opportunity to challenge Schumacher fizzled out completely in 2001 after being on similar points before Monaco. He also cost Williams and McLaren the WCC in 1995 and 1999 respectively.

For me Massa lacked the consistency. I remember him being very quick in some races and then other races where he spun a lot... I have him above DC, possibly gave Massa and Irvine too high positions, as they mounted a legit WDC charge at least.

Massa was not a wingman for Raikkonen, the 2007/2008 driver line up was two wing men in the car.

Johnson wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 10:09 am

Massa was not a wingman for Raikkonen, the 2007/2008 driver line up was two wing men in the car.

I know he didn’t win a title in this period but he was to Alonso.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 9:52 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 6:45 am

Massa reign as the most overrated driver of all time continues I see.

Why? Massa was a reasonable wingman for Schumacher and Raikkonen and almost won the WDC himself. That places him above Coulthard for me who's opportunity to challenge Schumacher fizzled out completely in 2001 after being on similar points before Monaco. He also cost Williams and McLaren the WCC in 1995 and 1999 respectively.

I believe we are ranking on ability not how good they were at playing the wingman role.

Being an air force chap, I struggle with the term wingman. Perhaps the Top Gun movie gave people the impression that there was a definite number one and number two in a pair, but that was not the case in a loose deuce - a US Navy tactical formation. Applied to F1, this would mean that there is no favoured or "lead" driver.

I would also suggest ranking the true number 2 drivers requires some indication of the level of support those drivers enjoyed from their teams. With that in mind I think Barrichello was the one driver in that group who would have been a worthy world champion, besides Massa who should have been world champion in 2008 but for Crashgate. Also, how about if Webber hadn't had that spin in Korea, would a title have further 'unlocked' him?

Johnson's post is amusing, but his view is correct if you take my first paragraph as a concept that can work in F1. Villeneuve-Pironi come to mind in that respect.

I have Barrichello on top and Kovalainen at the bottom - the middle part is interesting for me. I feel Webber gets underrated due to him not being able to master the blown diffuser, otherwise he's as quick as anyone. I personally think Bottas is faster than Irvine, and also Massa (marginally - we only have comparative data for a past-it Massa), but the latter 2 have mounted legitimate title challenges which Bottas has not. Coulthard was blow-hot blow-cold, and possibly brings up the rear just ahead of Kovalainen.

It's tricky reading this thread topic out loud, those ring men must be having one heck of an evening.

I went with a bit of a departure from the norm so here goes.

1	Coulthard
2	Barrichello
3	Webber
4	Bottas
5	Massa
6	Irvine
7	Kovalainen

DC I felt gave Hakkinen more of a run for his money than any of the others and 99-01 he was unlucky with reliability and other incidents not to have a proper title shot.

The next three were all decent enough but never really had a year when they gave their team mate trouble. I know Webber had 2010 but really he had the measure of Seb for about 5 races. Technical problems for Seb, whilst leading in Melbourne, Korea and Bahrain flattered Mark somewhat.

Massa only ever beat two disinterested and off colour team mates in his whole career, IIRC. JV and Kimi in 2005 and 2008 respectively.

Likeable though he was, I think we're all agreed on Heikki.

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Coulthard crashed into Hakkinen in some crucial races ...

The Bottas-assessment is strange here. How is he less able to win than Barrichello was or less willing to play wingman than Webber or Coulthard?

What is true is that Barrichello was never even trying to be more than what he was hired to be: a clear No. 2.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Coulthard crashed into Hakkinen in some crucial races ...

I was going to say the same. Austria was so iconic that Leclerc later copied him!

Tufty wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 10:28 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Coulthard crashed into Hakkinen in some crucial races ...

I was going to say the same. Austria was so iconic that Leclerc later copied him!

I think Leclerc was more of a remove-your-wing man in that instance.

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 10:35 am

Tufty wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 10:28 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Coulthard crashed into Hakkinen in some crucial races ...

I was going to say the same. Austria was so iconic that Leclerc later copied him!

I think Leclerc was more of a remove-your-wing man in that instance.

That made me chuckle

Also, hi dad!

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

What is true is that Barrichello was never even trying to be more than what he was hired to be: a clear No. 2.

What strange assertions. I clearly remember that Barrichello sought guarantees that he would not be a number 2, like Irvine had been, before signing his first Ferrari contract. Other drivers had often made fun of what they called "brake problem clause" in Irvine's contract.
And while I don't know by heart which year it was, I also remember Ferrari (Todt?) coming out with his Driver 1A and Driver 1B nonsense, though it may have been post-Austria 2002.
I will, however, agree that Barrichello remained at Ferrari far longer than he needed to realize that he would never be treated equally to Schumacher. Only Monaco 2005 finally made it clear to him.

Whether the death of Senna had a lasting effect on Barrichello's speed is something only he and those nearest to him in his career may be able to shed light on.

Fiki wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 11:22 am

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

What is true is that Barrichello was never even trying to be more than what he was hired to be: a clear No. 2.

What strange assertions. I clearly remember that Barrichello sought guarantees that he would not be a number 2, like Irvine had been, before signing his first Ferrari contract. Other drivers had often made fun of what they called "brake problem clause" in Irvine's contract.
And while I don't know by heart which year it was, I also remember Ferrari (Todt?) coming out with his Driver 1A and Driver 1B nonsense, though it may have been post-Austria 2002.
I will, however, agree that Barrichello remained at Ferrari far longer than he needed to realize that he would never be treated equally to Schumacher. Only Monaco 2005 finally made it clear to him.

Whether the death of Senna had a lasting effect on Barrichello's speed is something only he and those nearest to him in his career may be able to shed light on.

I'll bite, what happened in Monaco 2005? Is that the one he went past Rubens and Ralf on the last lap, caught them napping?

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Bottas has frequently said that he needs to work out the areas Hamilton manages to get more out of the car than him. I think he realises the margin Hamilton is better than him than you think he does. He seems to set tricky targets such as beating Hamilton, but in reality, I'm pretty sure he knows.

And in terms of being a wingman, I don't understand how you can rank Bottas this low. Was it heavily influenced by the one and only occasion he ignored a team order and made hamilton lost around a second...?

Bottas has been known for sometimes being too obliging. The amount of times he's made it so clear that he's been told to let Hamilton through and he drives way off line - compromising his own line a little more than he needs to. But it still shows that he is good as a wingman.

A few examples where he moved over or accepted instructions with no fuss:

Bahrain 2017
Hungary 2017

Germany 2018
Russia 2018

Singapore 2019 - He basically got told to slow right down here as the team made a mistake when pitting Hamilton. Bottas slowed the drivers behind him down to avoid hamilton losing out to more than just him, and he obliged.


There are plenty of others. And as I said the only time he made it hard was last time out in Spain.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 11:35 am

Fiki wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 11:22 am

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Wed May 19, 2021 6:14 pm

What is true is that Barrichello was never even trying to be more than what he was hired to be: a clear No. 2.

What strange assertions. I clearly remember that Barrichello sought guarantees that he would not be a number 2, like Irvine had been, before signing his first Ferrari contract. Other drivers had often made fun of what they called "brake problem clause" in Irvine's contract.
And while I don't know by heart which year it was, I also remember Ferrari (Todt?) coming out with his Driver 1A and Driver 1B nonsense, though it may have been post-Austria 2002.
I will, however, agree that Barrichello remained at Ferrari far longer than he needed to realize that he would never be treated equally to Schumacher. Only Monaco 2005 finally made it clear to him.

Whether the death of Senna had a lasting effect on Barrichello's speed is something only he and those nearest to him in his career may be able to shed light on.

I'll bite, what happened in Monaco 2005? Is that the one he went past Rubens and Ralf on the last lap, caught them napping?

I can't say for sure that it was the same race where he passed Ralf near the line, and it isn't relevant to this thread or my post. But yes, the race where Ferrari proved that the normal team procedures are applicable to the number 2 driver, but the number 1 can do as he pleases.
In case you're wondering; after the final pitstops, the drivers don't attack their teammate anymore.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 1:12 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Bottas has frequently said that he needs to work out the areas Hamilton manages to get more out of the car than him. I think he realises the margin Hamilton is better than him than you think he does. He seems to set tricky targets such as beating Hamilton, but in reality, I'm pretty sure he knows.

And in terms of being a wingman, I don't understand how you can rank Bottas this low. Was it heavily influenced by the one and only occasion he ignored a team order and made hamilton lost around a second...?

Bottas has been known for sometimes being too obliging. The amount of times he's made it so clear that he's been told to let Hamilton through and he drives way off line - compromising his own line a little more than he needs to. But it still shows that he is good as a wingman.

A few examples where he moved over or accepted instructions with no fuss:

Bahrain 2017
Hungary 2017

Germany 2018
Russia 2018

Singapore 2019 - He basically got told to slow right down here as the team made a mistake when pitting Hamilton. Bottas slowed the drivers behind him down to avoid hamilton losing out to more than just him, and he obliged.


There are plenty of others. And as I said the only time he made it hard was last time out in Spain.

I think far too much is being made of Bottas costing Hamilton time in Spain - I would argue it was just for show. If he were serious about defending his position he wouldn't let Hamilton easily take the inside line into a corner where no other overtakes happened (afaik) - he was rolling over as always, while keeping a story about "that's not why I'm here" to feed to the media.

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 4:45 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 1:12 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Bottas has frequently said that he needs to work out the areas Hamilton manages to get more out of the car than him. I think he realises the margin Hamilton is better than him than you think he does. He seems to set tricky targets such as beating Hamilton, but in reality, I'm pretty sure he knows.

And in terms of being a wingman, I don't understand how you can rank Bottas this low. Was it heavily influenced by the one and only occasion he ignored a team order and made hamilton lost around a second...?

Bottas has been known for sometimes being too obliging. The amount of times he's made it so clear that he's been told to let Hamilton through and he drives way off line - compromising his own line a little more than he needs to. But it still shows that he is good as a wingman.

A few examples where he moved over or accepted instructions with no fuss:

Bahrain 2017
Hungary 2017

Germany 2018
Russia 2018

Singapore 2019 - He basically got told to slow right down here as the team made a mistake when pitting Hamilton. Bottas slowed the drivers behind him down to avoid hamilton losing out to more than just him, and he obliged.


There are plenty of others. And as I said the only time he made it hard was last time out in Spain.

I think far too much is being made of Bottas costing Hamilton time in Spain - I would argue it was just for show. If he were serious about defending his position he wouldn't let Hamilton easily take the inside line into a corner where no other overtakes happened (afaik) - he was rolling over as always, while keeping a story about "that's not why I'm here" to feed to the media.

Have you not seen Bottas' defending as hard as he possibly can?

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 7:26 pm

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 4:45 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 1:12 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Bottas has frequently said that he needs to work out the areas Hamilton manages to get more out of the car than him. I think he realises the margin Hamilton is better than him than you think he does. He seems to set tricky targets such as beating Hamilton, but in reality, I'm pretty sure he knows.

And in terms of being a wingman, I don't understand how you can rank Bottas this low. Was it heavily influenced by the one and only occasion he ignored a team order and made hamilton lost around a second...?

Bottas has been known for sometimes being too obliging. The amount of times he's made it so clear that he's been told to let Hamilton through and he drives way off line - compromising his own line a little more than he needs to. But it still shows that he is good as a wingman.

A few examples where he moved over or accepted instructions with no fuss:

Bahrain 2017
Hungary 2017

Germany 2018
Russia 2018

Singapore 2019 - He basically got told to slow right down here as the team made a mistake when pitting Hamilton. Bottas slowed the drivers behind him down to avoid hamilton losing out to more than just him, and he obliged.


There are plenty of others. And as I said the only time he made it hard was last time out in Spain.

I think far too much is being made of Bottas costing Hamilton time in Spain - I would argue it was just for show. If he were serious about defending his position he wouldn't let Hamilton easily take the inside line into a corner where no other overtakes happened (afaik) - he was rolling over as always, while keeping a story about "that's not why I'm here" to feed to the media.

Have you not seen Bottas' defending as hard as he possibly can?

Not sure what you mean - are you saying he was defending as hard as he possibly could? Or is it a rhetorical question? Sorry it's not clear to me.

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 8:14 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 7:26 pm

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri May 21, 2021 4:45 pm

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Thu May 20, 2021 1:12 pm

SlipstreamF1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 18, 2021 11:44 pm

I ranked them based on their sanity and willingness to be a wingman:

Barrichello - He knew his position and never once questioned it
Coulthard - He never had a run in with Hakkinen even though they were just about equals
Webber - He never stood a chance against Vettel. He had a chatty mouth but at the end of the day it was only his mouth that spoke not his driving
Irvine - He was a good driver, more than just a #2. I like everyone was surprised that he didn't win the WDC in '99.
Kovalainen - I still don't think he ever drove to his true potential. Like Bottas he let his results get the best of him, but unlike Bottas he couldn't keep pushing himself through it
Massa - I believe Schumacher's hype got to his head. He was fast sometimes, but only sometimes was not good enough. Massa always believed that he should be challenging for the WDC and he should've been
Bottas - We hadn't seen it until last year but he is clearly the most frustrated driver in F1, being handed a machine capable of winning but he isn't able to do it. It's not bad luck or having to let Lewis by as it's clear to everyone but himself that he's inferior

Bottas has frequently said that he needs to work out the areas Hamilton manages to get more out of the car than him. I think he realises the margin Hamilton is better than him than you think he does. He seems to set tricky targets such as beating Hamilton, but in reality, I'm pretty sure he knows.

And in terms of being a wingman, I don't understand how you can rank Bottas this low. Was it heavily influenced by the one and only occasion he ignored a team order and made hamilton lost around a second...?

Bottas has been known for sometimes being too obliging. The amount of times he's made it so clear that he's been told to let Hamilton through and he drives way off line - compromising his own line a little more than he needs to. But it still shows that he is good as a wingman.

A few examples where he moved over or accepted instructions with no fuss:

Bahrain 2017
Hungary 2017

Germany 2018
Russia 2018

Singapore 2019 - He basically got told to slow right down here as the team made a mistake when pitting Hamilton. Bottas slowed the drivers behind him down to avoid hamilton losing out to more than just him, and he obliged.


There are plenty of others. And as I said the only time he made it hard was last time out in Spain.

I think far too much is being made of Bottas costing Hamilton time in Spain - I would argue it was just for show. If he were serious about defending his position he wouldn't let Hamilton easily take the inside line into a corner where no other overtakes happened (afaik) - he was rolling over as always, while keeping a story about "that's not why I'm here" to feed to the media.

Have you not seen Bottas' defending as hard as he possibly can?

Not sure what you mean - are you saying he was defending as hard as he possibly could? Or is it a rhetorical question? Sorry it's not clear to me.

Sorry. I mean Bottas trying his best to defend put's up all the resistance of match stick in a hurricane. What we saw in Spain against Hamilton looked just as aggressive as any other defences situation we see him in.

Never mind wingmen. After this weekend, what Bottas needs are wingnuts.

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 3:21 pm

Never mind wingmen. After this weekend, what Bottas needs are wingnuts.

nice


Although they are a bit slack. He's be better off with nylocks!

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 3:21 pm

Never mind wingmen. After this weekend, what Bottas needs are wingnuts.

I haven't watched F1 long enough to follow all these drivers, but is it common for the wingmen to have much worse luck then the team leader? Bottas having 8 retirements since 2017 and 1 for Hamilton seems a bit odd. One was his fault in germany, but still...

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 10:14 pm

I haven't watched F1 long enough to follow all these drivers, but is it common for the wingmen to have much worse luck then the team leader? Bottas having 8 retirements since 2017 and 1 for Hamilton seems a bit odd. One was his fault in germany, but still...

Has happened quite a bit over the years at Red Bull too.

TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑

Sun May 23, 2021 10:14 pm

I haven't watched F1 long enough to follow all these drivers, but is it common for the wingmen to have much worse luck then the team leader? Bottas having 8 retirements since 2017 and 1 for Hamilton seems a bit odd. One was his fault in germany, but still...

I suspect that the number 1 driver is probably assigned with the better mechanics on his side of the garage.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Mon May 24, 2021 3:03 am

I suspect that the number 1 driver is probably assigned with the better mechanics on his side of the garage.

Been a common theme. Schumacher had superior reliability to Barrichello, Alonso and Hamilton have enjoyed similar.