Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

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tootsie323
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by tootsie323 »

Greenman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:56 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:34 pm
Greenman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 1:22 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 11:58 am

To be fair, the wings have passed the static load test and that was the criteria for determine the legality of the wing. If the FIA changes its test (criteria) then its surely right to allow the affected team to change its design.
NO !

I asked for people to remeber what happened with the flexible front wings. The tests are NOT the whole of the problem, the REGULATIONS say that the wings should not flex (irrespective of any tests). The cameras show now (as they showed with the front wings) that the rear wing flexes IN CONTRAVENTION OF OF THE REGULATION.

It is pointless just parroting the false arguments about the front wings passing the tests when the FIA just pointed to the actual regulation and said that they were wrong.

Why do people insist on ignoring the facts ?

.
I'm not seeking to ignore facts. I accept that the wings should not (excessively) flex but am simply pointing out that the test criteria has been limited to a static load (and that Red Bull has exploited this - again, it seems).
I'm just stating that I think it's a little unfair to penalise them for passing a test which they are about to change the criteria for. You're more than welcome to disagree with me on that point.
The criteria (as with the illegal flexible front wing, is NOT passing the test, it is obeying the regulation which demand no flexing.

Every team knows this (because of the illegal flexing front wing) so there is no excuse for having a flexing rear wing.

.
'No flexing' is not an absolute, is it? It would be nigh on practically impossible to design a wing that had absolutely zero flex. There must be a tolerance within which the wing should pass under test. Presumably, the test for 'zero wing flex' exists and Red Bull has passed it (unless somebody can tell me that the team has been allowed to race under appeal / exemption).
If the powers-that-be have deemed that the (present - static load?) test used is inadequate and that the use of an onboard camera is required than so be it. But if the team finds itself having to comply to the rule under a new criterion it should be allowed the opportunity (and time) to redesign the wing accordingly if necessary.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

It's impossible to engineer something that doesn't flex - even if it was constructed from solid diamond, it would move - so the regulations allow for the natural movement of the bodywork given the extreme forces that exist. However, there is no way to define that criteria in a legally enforceable way.

The stress tests are essentially a guideline, a way of proving non compliance. But the cleverness of Red Bull's flexible wing designs is that they will not flex when the test is applied to them, but bend a whole lot more under race conditions - at a materials engineering level, it's ingenious, but it's bit like they discovered a material that has a mass of 700kg when stationary, but 350kg when moving and made their car out of it to pass the weight check.

The FIA could put in a rule that says "materials deliberately designed to pass the flex test but behave differently when the car is in motion are prohibited" - but this again would be very difficult to prove. Unless they had recording from their meetings, or a whistleblower, it would be entirely circumstantial.

Everyone knows that Red Bull have designed their wing to do this deliberately, to pass the test but behave differently on track, but it's a lot more difficult to have a wing do that than to comply with the rules as intended. Red Bull know that they know. But Red Bull also know that it is impossible to prove it is being doing intentionally, and everyone knows it's impossible to prove it's being done intentionally. The only thing the FIA can do is to introduce more flex tests that make it more difficult to engineer bendy wing that passes.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Greenman »

.

Whilst I agree in principle, as with the flexing front wing, the FIA CAN take the visual evidence as proof that the wing is not in accordance with the regulations.

As with the flexing front wing (which every team will remember - even if some here "seem" to have "forgotten") the visual evidence is enough for the FIA to act.

.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by UnlikeUday »

Helmut Marko has claimed even Alpine & Alfa Romeo are using flexible wings.
https://f1i.com/news/405484-marko-red-b ... tests.html
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:41 am
Helmut Marko has claimed even Alpine & Alfa Romeo are using flexible wings.
https://f1i.com/news/405484-marko-red-b ... tests.html

I mentioned this at the start, which is why the trip into 'Mercedes get preferential treatment' thread seems just a personal crusade.

Bendy front wing is interesting though but would that reduce grip speed would unchanged I'd have thought. Aero is so complex I've probably got that all wrong!
Option or Prime wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:38 pm
A.J. wrote:
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pokerman wrote:
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A.J. wrote:
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:56 pm
If it is Mercedes that have noticed dodgy things. then good on them for bringing it up with the FIA.

By the way, are there any pictures on-line that show what they are talking about?
Sure - but when they do dodgy things it is considered innovation (such as DAS, which never should have been allowed imo).

Here's a video I found of the wing from Spain: https://streamable.com/6xb9xv (mods: not sure if this is allowed - please feel free to remove if not)
How was DAS cheating when they ran it through the stewards before using it?
How are the wings illegal if they pass all the tests? Your logic (I'm being kind in using this word) is circular.
Its all explained in the article. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57086036 Not sure why you seem so angry about this, its an FIA crackdown.
No team was mentioned so how do we know its not an issue other teams are guilty of.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

The latest I'm hearing is that the stewards are going to use the FIA cameras already in use to monitor the rear wings in order to measure the flex, to this end the teams have to make several markings in the desired positions in respect to the rear wings so measurement can be made whilst the cars are on the track, thus taking away the ability to fool any static tests.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by A.J. »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:25 am
Are front wings allowed to flex as well? The 2 videos are from Portugal. Keep an eye on the bottom left of Bottas' front wing. The 2nd video is of Red Bull for comparison.





https://www.sportvideos.tv/video-merced ... E_mIc1QAvI
Can't believe I missed this - am curious to hear what the people bashing RBR have to say about this.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Harpo »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 1:34 pm

Can't believe I missed this - am curious to hear what the people bashing RBR have to say about this.
I'd say that both front wings "vibrate" but don't flex.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by A.J. »

Hamilton stirring the pot again: https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... ggle-room/

Got to love the insecure comments from Hamilton:

"“I think perhaps, as you know, he feels perhaps he has a lot to prove. I’m not necessarily in the same boat there. I’m more long term, kind of ‘it’s a marathon not a sprint’ sort of mentality, which is ultimately why I have the stats I have."

Shame he has to bring down his rivals and big himself up in the media even after all these years. :thumbdown:

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

Seidel and Wolff stating there are 4 teams running 'bendy rear wings' at the moment Red Bull, Ferrari. Alfa Remeo and ?

Mercedes might have a bendy front wing. The decision to delay testing has annoyed Seidel and Wolff. Not much FIA favouritism there obviously.

Wing test delay 'incomprehensible'

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by A.J. »

Waiting for Hamilton's comments on his bendy front wing.

I'm going to have a stroke laughing if the new flex tests hurt the Merc more than the RBR.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?
There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by JN23 »

Approaching this a technical novice... Is there different rules/tests between front and rear?

I’m fairly confident Mercedes will know the front wing is fine otherwise they wouldn’t have made such a big play on the rear wings of others.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

There's a deflection test and a camera fitted to check the rear wing flex, with the Red Bull rear wing the whole structure seems to rotate backwards and lower, I'm sure that Horner could protest the front wings if he feels he has a leg to stand on but at this point it seems pure deflection by Horner, if you pardon the pun. :)

Horner seems quite blaza about any future load tests like we will design the rear wing around that as well, also as both Mercedes and McLaren have ventured there is quite a blaza approach from the stewards as well, it's their own cameras that have highlighted the flexing of the rear wings yet it took Mercedes to point it out, I'm not entirely sure about the stewards saying they already knew about it and were going to take some action giving how long it's actually going to take them to act and in the meantime despite video evidence they seem quite happy for these wings to carry on being used and what's the point of the cameras anyway when what the stewards see they apparently are happy for it to carry on at least in the short term, given the slowness to react from the stewards I've not convinced anything was going to be done without a third party pointing it out.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?
There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Ah, thank you, there's quite a lot of flexing there.

I think Mercedes also had a few of these reports the last few years, so to be the first ones to cast a stone is a bit amusing.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:01 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?
There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Ah, thank you, there's quite a lot of flexing there.

I think Mercedes also had a few of these reports the last few years, so to be the first ones to cast a stone is a bit amusing.
Looking at the video its actually hard to see that it is hoping in any way, it just looks wobbly!

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:08 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:01 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?
There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Ah, thank you, there's quite a lot of flexing there.

I think Mercedes also had a few of these reports the last few years, so to be the first ones to cast a stone is a bit amusing.
Looking at the video its actually hard to see that it is hoping in any way, it just looks wobbly!
Don't look at the wobble on the apex, check the elements flexing when the car hits the brakes, just before the turns. It is quite noticeable.

Edit: check between 0:13-0:18
Last edited by Siao7 on Thu May 20, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

What I find amusing is how people think they are technical experts, I certainly am not, I however can understand a simply load test of a rear wing that requires it not to move in one specific direction of which we can observe through a camera, if the likes of Christian "I like a protest" Horner is doing nothing about the Mercedes front wing, I believe that tells you all you need to know.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

The Mercedes front wing https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ng_of_the/ was flexing like that a year ago, see comments and video so its not new.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:31 pm
The Mercedes front wing https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ng_of_the/ was flexing like that a year ago, see comments and video so its not new.
Nothing new doesn't make it right, for any of the teams.

Re Mercedes, their rear was flexing as well (although a bit more subtle than RB):

https://streamable.com/vkuiaj

And this is the little T-wing last year in Turkey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPUMWL ... hannel=BOZ

I think in 2018 Ferrari was ready to report them for the rear wing flex at some point

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:31 pm
The Mercedes front wing https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... ng_of_the/ was flexing like that a year ago, see comments and video so its not new.
I have to wonder why some of the self appointed technical experts were not aware of that?

In respect to the rear wings they are allowed to flex a little bit, see the Mercedes rear wing moved a little bit, gotcha. :lol:
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by UnlikeUday »

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm
Woah....Ferrari too! :o

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... n/6512037/
That's the point: everyone does it, so for one team to come out finger pointing, it is a bit rich. I'm sure there will be certain Merc lovers that will deny this at all costs, but hey ho

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:19 pm
Yeah, Sky just showed the Merc front wing bending at least as much as the Red Bull rear wing.
Is there a link or a vid I wonder?
There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Is there an uncropped version of that video because with the edges cut out that looks no different to any front wing on a modern f1 car - see Verstappen‘s here: https://youtu.be/V2vGlUqVGQ0

That type of flex is a consequence of a cantilevered design, the front wing takes the brunt of the air flow and it will be pushed down, the issue with the red bull ones from 2010 were they were designed to be rigid and suddenly pop down once a certain set of conditions were met

It’s impossible to tell from that video whether the Mercedes is doing the former or the latter.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:18 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm


There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Is there an uncropped version of that video because with the edges cut out that looks no different to any front wing on a modern f1 car - see Verstappen‘s here: https://youtu.be/V2vGlUqVGQ0

That type of flex is a consequence of a cantilevered design, the front wing takes the brunt of the air flow and it will be pushed down, the issue with the red bull ones from 2010 were they were designed to be rigid and suddenly pop down once a certain set of conditions were met

It’s impossible to tell from that video whether the Mercedes is doing the former or the latter.
OK, this could get confusing. Firstly, is it possible to say if the type of movement showing flex in Portugal is the same as that shown in the year old video. It looks the same to me?

Given the 'Flexi wing' exploitation by Red Bull previously I find it hard to believe that Mercedes were allowed to win a WDC with a front wing issue and it not be picked up by any other team or the FIA.

So secondly if it were legal then is it legal now or its that why you need an uncropped video?

Thirdly, if the Mercedes front wing were found to be illegal now what happens about last season?

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by SlipstreamF1 »

Mercedes opened a can of worms out of desperation and panic. This was brought up before the last race which they ended up dominating. So if the FIA goes after bendy front and rear rings, half the grid is in deep trouble. I reckon they won't do anything this year but will make changes for the rules next year.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Greenman »

.

Wolf now making an issue of the FIA's slow response ;

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... p-in-court

Mercedes’ Toto Wolff warns F1 wings row could end up in court

Mercedes chief unhappy at delay to new tests on wing rigidity
Sergio Pérez tops the timesheets in first practice for Monaco GP



Mercedes’ Toto Wolff warns F1 wings row could end up in court
Mercedes chief unhappy at delay to new tests on wing rigidity
Sergio Pérez tops the timesheets in first practice for Monaco GP
Max Verstappen’s Red Bull during practice on Thursday for the Monaco Grand Prix.
Max Verstappen’s Red Bull during practice on Thursday for the Monaco Grand Prix. Photograph: DPPI/Florent Gooden/LiveMedia/Rex/Shutterstock
Giles Richards in Monaco
@giles_richards
Thu 20 May 2021 16.14 BST

6
The Mercedes team principal, Toto Wolff, has warned the row over flexible wings in Formula One could end up in the FIA international court of appeal. As the teams took to the streets of Monaco for practice on Thursday there was increasing tension behind the scenes where official protests are being considered.

Any protest and subsequent ICA ruling could affect what is already a finely balanced title fight with Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton leading Red Bull’s Max Verstappen by 14 points.

The issue was first raised after the Spanish Grand Prix when Hamilton questioned the advantage Red Bull may have gained from what he described as a “bendy” rear wing. The regulations have banned movable aerodynamic parts for many years. Some teams, however, have looked to exploit the rules by designing a rear wing that flexes under load to reduce drag on straights and increase top speed.

Load tests are undertaken to ensure the wings are sufficiently rigid but after Spain the FIA informed the teams it would introduce new tests on 15 June. But that means the current wings can be used in Monte Carlo and crucially at the next round in Baku, a circuit with the highest top speeds of the season.

In Monaco there was frustration that the new tests had not been implemented sooner.

“It is incomprehensible that in four weeks you can’t stiffen up a rear wing for the track that is most affected by a flexible rear wing,” Wolff said. “Delaying the introduction [of new tests] for whatever reason leaves us in a legal vacuum and leaves the door open for protests. Not only us but probably two other teams that are most affected, maybe more and a protest could end up in the ICA and that is a messy situation.”

The Red Bull team principal, Christian Horner, insisted his team have complied with the regulations and his car has passed all the previous tests. But the Ferrari team principal, Mattia Binotto, admitted his team were pushing the rules to their limit and would probably have to adapt their wing to pass the new tests.

Horner was bullish in his response, warning it was unfeasible to expect teams to make fundamental changes in short periods of time. “There has to be a lead time, you can’t expect parts to be magicked up overnight,” he said. “The car complies to the regulations that have been there for the last 18 months and then the test has been changed. There has to be a notice period for that.”

McLaren’s team principal, Andreas Seidl, echoed Wolff and would also not rule out making a protest. “Where we strongly disagree is the timing of the implementation,” he said. “We hope the FIA shows a very strong hand and it is simply not acceptable because it puts the teams who comply with the regulations at a big disadvantage.”

Sergio Pérez topped the timesheets in first practice at Monte Carlo for Red Bull, a tenth up on the Ferrari of Carlos Sainz. Verstappen put his Red Bull in third place with Hamilton in fifth. In the afternoon, meanwhile, Ferrari were very strong. Charles Leclerc was quickest on his home track, with Sainz in second and Hamilton in third.

.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:12 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm
Woah....Ferrari too! :o

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... n/6512037/
That's the point: everyone does it, so for one team to come out finger pointing, it is a bit rich. I'm sure there will be certain Merc lovers that will deny this at all costs, but hey ho
McLaren are pushing just has hard as Mercedes, we need to be reading more articles methinks rather than merely looking to turn the tables on Mercedes.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

SlipstreamF1 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:52 pm
Mercedes opened a can of worms out of desperation and panic. This was brought up before the last race which they ended up dominating. So if the FIA goes after bendy front and rear rings, half the grid is in deep trouble. I reckon they won't do anything this year but will make changes for the rules next year.
I've not got a great deal of understanding of technical things but I don't believe we are talking about the same thing, the whole structure of the Red Bull rear wing has been designed to drop lower at a greater speed then come back up again under braking, the equivalent of the front wing would be to do likewise, the whole structure bending down towards the floor, like in the Red Bull/Vettel years, instead you have elements of the front wing flexing under force, I've little doubt all the front wings are doing this but of course it's prudent for best affect to just look at the Mercedes front wing.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:33 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:12 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm
Woah....Ferrari too! :o

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... n/6512037/
That's the point: everyone does it, so for one team to come out finger pointing, it is a bit rich. I'm sure there will be certain Merc lovers that will deny this at all costs, but hey ho
McLaren are pushing just has hard as Mercedes, we need to be reading more articles methinks rather than merely looking to turn the tables on Mercedes.
I'd imagine every team who isn't using a flexing wing will want in on the protest. Formula 1 is a zero-sum game, so hurting your competition is helping yourself.
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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

10 Teams, 4 teams using it, 2 publicly objecting to it, 4 teams ........ watching, hiding, shy?

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by EPROM »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:43 pm
I've not got a great deal of understanding of technical things but I don't believe we are talking about the same thing, the whole structure of the Red Bull rear wing has been designed to drop lower at a greater speed then come back up again under braking, the equivalent of the front wing would be to do likewise, the whole structure bending down towards the floor, like in the Red Bull/Vettel years, instead you have elements of the front wing flexing under force, I've little doubt all the front wings are doing this but of course it's prudent for best affect to just look at the Mercedes front wing.
OK, that's fine (not being a technical expert). But it's really not a difficult concept to agree with (or not) that a car either passes or fails the objective technical regs. The whole concept is that they are objective and measurable - and not arguable. To me, that seems like the best possible state, so why are people making something else of the regs - encouraging them to be subjective (and avoid arguable conflict)? Sounds like a "fool's errand".

You stick an objective spec out there and let all the comers design their best to meet the spec and be the fastest out there. Is that not the ultimate goal in this sport?

I will grant you that things like steroid use in athletes (e.g., the US Kentucky Derby, also the Tour de France) could use a similar strategy, but again, let the technical regs rule - and let the chips fall where they may.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:41 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:18 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm


There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Is there an uncropped version of that video because with the edges cut out that looks no different to any front wing on a modern f1 car - see Verstappen‘s here: https://youtu.be/V2vGlUqVGQ0

That type of flex is a consequence of a cantilevered design, the front wing takes the brunt of the air flow and it will be pushed down, the issue with the red bull ones from 2010 were they were designed to be rigid and suddenly pop down once a certain set of conditions were met

It’s impossible to tell from that video whether the Mercedes is doing the former or the latter.
OK, this could get confusing. Firstly, is it possible to say if the type of movement showing flex in Portugal is the same as that shown in the year old video. It looks the same to me?

Given the 'Flexi wing' exploitation by Red Bull previously I find it hard to believe that Mercedes were allowed to win a WDC with a front wing issue and it not be picked up by any other team or the FIA.

So secondly if it were legal then is it legal now or its that why you need an uncropped video?

Thirdly, if the Mercedes front wing were found to be illegal now what happens about last season?
Red Bull's championships they win with wings designed to get around the flex tests aren't considered invalid. Benetton won a championship with traction control software on their car and an illegally modified fuel rig.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 6:27 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:41 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:18 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm


There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Is there an uncropped version of that video because with the edges cut out that looks no different to any front wing on a modern f1 car - see Verstappen‘s here: https://youtu.be/V2vGlUqVGQ0

That type of flex is a consequence of a cantilevered design, the front wing takes the brunt of the air flow and it will be pushed down, the issue with the red bull ones from 2010 were they were designed to be rigid and suddenly pop down once a certain set of conditions were met

It’s impossible to tell from that video whether the Mercedes is doing the former or the latter.
OK, this could get confusing. Firstly, is it possible to say if the type of movement showing flex in Portugal is the same as that shown in the year old video. It looks the same to me?

Given the 'Flexi wing' exploitation by Red Bull previously I find it hard to believe that Mercedes were allowed to win a WDC with a front wing issue and it not be picked up by any other team or the FIA.

So secondly if it were legal then is it legal now or its that why you need an uncropped video?

Thirdly, if the Mercedes front wing were found to be illegal now what happens about last season?
Red Bull's championships they win with wings designed to get around the flex tests aren't considered invalid. Benetton won a championship with traction control software on their car and an illegally modified fuel rig.

OK thanks, so if the front wing flex is the same as a year ago is it Illegal now or not? Does it depend on the mechanism or are variable aero systems illegal irrespective of mechanism. Finally is it only the Mercedes front wing that does this?

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:58 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 11:33 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:12 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:05 pm
Woah....Ferrari too! :o

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... n/6512037/
That's the point: everyone does it, so for one team to come out finger pointing, it is a bit rich. I'm sure there will be certain Merc lovers that will deny this at all costs, but hey ho
McLaren are pushing just has hard as Mercedes, we need to be reading more articles methinks rather than merely looking to turn the tables on Mercedes.
I'd imagine every team who isn't using a flexing wing will want in on the protest. Formula 1 is a zero-sum game, so hurting your competition is helping yourself.
But leave Mercedes alone you guys...

As the article mentions, they mostly agree, but for the implementation period. Realistically, Merc has most to lose as they battle with RB more closely than before, so they shout the loudest. As they should of course.

The problem I see is one that has always plagued F1; mid-season rule changes. Bernie and Max used this in the past for political games, they would have loved this one. Anyway, nowadays with the cost caps this is not easy to accommodate overnight, so they need more time/planning. If you suddenly change the tests and half the cars do not pass, then what's the point?

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 8:16 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 6:27 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:41 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 4:18 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:49 pm


There's a vid from Portugal earlier in the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_fqI63ESU
Is there an uncropped version of that video because with the edges cut out that looks no different to any front wing on a modern f1 car - see Verstappen‘s here: https://youtu.be/V2vGlUqVGQ0

That type of flex is a consequence of a cantilevered design, the front wing takes the brunt of the air flow and it will be pushed down, the issue with the red bull ones from 2010 were they were designed to be rigid and suddenly pop down once a certain set of conditions were met

It’s impossible to tell from that video whether the Mercedes is doing the former or the latter.
OK, this could get confusing. Firstly, is it possible to say if the type of movement showing flex in Portugal is the same as that shown in the year old video. It looks the same to me?

Given the 'Flexi wing' exploitation by Red Bull previously I find it hard to believe that Mercedes were allowed to win a WDC with a front wing issue and it not be picked up by any other team or the FIA.

So secondly if it were legal then is it legal now or its that why you need an uncropped video?

Thirdly, if the Mercedes front wing were found to be illegal now what happens about last season?
Red Bull's championships they win with wings designed to get around the flex tests aren't considered invalid. Benetton won a championship with traction control software on their car and an illegally modified fuel rig.

OK thanks, so if the front wing flex is the same as a year ago is it Illegal now or not? Does it depend on the mechanism or are variable aero systems illegal irrespective of mechanism. Finally is it only the Mercedes front wing that does this?
Ultimately, Formula 1 regulations have to have an objective test of some form. When it comes to flexible bodywork intent is impossible to prove - unless they were to get a video recording of Christian Horner or Toto Wolff saying "engineer it to cheat the test" or have some kind of email paper trail of engineers saying 'we can make it pass the flex test but actually be a lot more bendy when it's vibrating on the circuit and having an airflow pushed against it in a certain way"

Bodywork will always flex because that's what happens when you apply forces to it, the regulations allow for those material properties flexing. But in parc ferme they can't apply tests that do exactly the same thing as the forces on the car going around the track. So it's entirely possible for a car to be totally illegal, for everyone to know it's totally illegal, but there to be no way to prove it's totally illegal.

The flexible Red Bull rear wing now is definitely on the lighter shade of grey as far as flexible wings go. I can't comment on the Mercedes one because the videos people showing of them are of terrible quality, and front wings are better judged from an external camera head on anyway. But from the sound of things - if it is deliberate flexing it sounds similar to the current Red Bull flexing. However - as the only accusations of Mercedes wing flexing I have seen are on forums and social media, or the clickbait rumour news websites - it sounds like in probability it's less extreme that what Red Bull's rear wing is doing. At the moment the video evidence is barely better than photos of UFOs or Big Foot and while the noise suggests the wing is bending to so degree those making the accusations need to provide evidence that's conclusive.

The present videos of Mercedes front wing that have been shared are cropped and of very low video quality, and the flex that can determined looks linear. If the wing is passing the deflection tests then this is how a legally compliant wing will behave. The bend is proportional to the force generated by downforce. Mercedes were running more high downforce level than Red Bull at the last two races, so their wing will bend more. The issue where the flexing becomes grey, and ultimately illegal, is when the wing is engineered to deflect non linearly, or to have a different flexing characteristic when the car is in motion. This requires special engineering to pull off, and is therefore clearly deliberate. The Red Bull wings from the 2010s were the most extreme, the videos would show the wing being rigid until a speed was reached where the rigidity of the wing supports seemed to completely disappear and the wing tips suddenly popped down and touched the ground. That is not what a material naturally does, and it's against two rules (1. flexible bodywork and 2. having a device designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground)

But despite everyone knowing it's illegal, it's impossible to have a test for. The only way the car can be tested is by applying load tests in different directions, but all these do is prove a car is illegal, not prove a car is legal. However, as it's impossible to prove a car is legal, a car that is not proven to be illegal is effectively legal. It can't be retrospectively proven illegal, so the results will stand.

The only instance where this is different is when the evidence can be impounded, or some smoking gun discovered. This is essentially what happened with the Ferrari engines. It was discovered that not only was the engine illegally using more fuel, it was achieving this by lying to the sensors to monitor fuel flow. The equivalent to this in the flexible wing saga would be if video evidence of a Red Bull engineer putting a sticker over the "load force" reading of the testing equipment so it looked like it was exerting the test force but was actually only exerting half.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by Option or Prime »

Excellent explanation ATH, nice to have someone who not only understands it but gives a clear explanation. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out now. I'm not sure why the issue can't be addressed until after the GP where it will have the greatest influence but there may be a legitimate reason.

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Re: Red Bull's Bendy Rear Wing (split from FIA and Mercedes)

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:28 am
10 Teams, 4 teams using it, 2 publicly objecting to it, 4 teams ........ watching, hiding, shy?
I've heard it's 5 teams that are using it, basically all bar the Merc teams plus Haas who have decided not to develop anything for this year, if all the Merc teams protested they might be called Merc puppets while Haas are not going to protest Ferrari.
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