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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am
by DOLOMITE
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
I think it's more a case of "I love the competition....as long as I come out on top" but wouldn't you expect that off all professional atheletes?
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
by A.J.
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
I think it's more a case of "I love the competition....as long as I come out on top" but wouldn't you expect that off all professional atheletes?
Oh I absolutely get it - what irks me is his fanbase using that as some form of proof that he wants competition.
Yeah no - he wants competition as long as he knows he can beat them. The moment it starts to look tough (see Silverstone 2018) the real side comes out and the toys get thrown out.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:31 am
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
He was leading the title race after Belgium in 2010 round 13 of 19 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Belg ... r_the_race
In 2010 he was leading the title race after Canada round 7 of 20 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Form ... _standings
Maybe you need to brush up on your F1 knowledge?
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:34 am
by mikeyg123
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
Wasn't part of his reason for leaving McLaren was being unhappy that they were focussing too much on Button?
I'd say he's always struggled when he's had a teammate that can compete with him.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:35 am
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
I think it's more a case of "I love the competition....as long as I come out on top" but wouldn't you expect that off all professional atheletes?
Oh I absolutely get it - what irks me is his fanbase using that as some form of proof that he wants competition.
Yeah no - he wants competition as long as he knows he can beat them. The moment it starts to look tough (see Silverstone 2018) the real side comes out and the toys get thrown out.
When he got punted off the track by Kimi putting him in last place and preventing from winning his home GP, this becomes relentless thread after thread.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:40 am
by pokerman
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:34 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
Wasn't part of his reason for leaving McLaren was being unhappy that they were focussing too much on Button?
I'd say he's always struggled when he's had a teammate that can compete with him.
He was leading in the WDC battle, Button was struggling and that became their main concern, this swings round to what's been discussed before in respect to Schumacher and the amount of support each received within their teams.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:43 am
by F1Tyrant
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
Wrong. Hamilton fought for the title in 2012 alongside Button (and made him look like a chump). After his victory at Monza, he was second in the championship to Alonso trailing by 37 points. However, mechanicals while leading in Singapore and Abu Dhabi prevented him from having a title shot in the final race where he would have needed Vettel to finish 10th or lower and Alonso to finish 5th or lower.
That's without mentioning the awful pit stops that cost him certain podiums and Hulkenberg crashing him out in the final race.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:31 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
He was leading the title race after Belgium in 2010 round 13 of 19 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Belg ... r_the_race
In 2010 he was leading the title race after Canada round 7 of 20 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Form ... _standings
Maybe you need to brush up on your F1 knowledge?
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:05 pm
by BMWSauber84
My understanding was that McLaren on the whole wanted Hamilton to stay, but there was a not insignificant minority that felt that Button and a strong number 2 would be a better bet for a title bid for 2013. Certainly Martin Whitmarsh and Button had a proper bromance going on. Ultimately though, I think that Hamilton made an emotional decision to leave based on the frustrations of that season.
Back on topic, It really has to be Russell next season and I think it will be. It will give the team the answers they need for the future. If Russell gets 'Vandoorned' then they know he can't lead the team. I strongly suspect he'd be very competitive though.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:06 pm
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:35 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
I think it's more a case of "I love the competition....as long as I come out on top" but wouldn't you expect that off all professional atheletes?
Oh I absolutely get it - what irks me is his fanbase using that as some form of proof that he wants competition.
Yeah no - he wants competition as long as he knows he can beat them. The moment it starts to look tough (see Silverstone 2018) the real side comes out and the toys get thrown out.
When he got punted off the track by Kimi putting him in last place and preventing from winning his home GP, this becomes relentless thread after thread.
That justifies accusing Kimi of cheating?
At the very least it is clear he doesn't want a teammate he knows will give him a tough time, even if he claims he wants competition. If he extends his contract, I fully expect him to want to keep Bottas there.
Watch out for more "supportive" quotes from Hamilton towards Bottas in the coming months, and harping about the importance of continuity going into the new rules. Just hope everyone sees through these transparent attempts to block Russell.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:07 pm
by A.J.
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:43 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
Wrong. Hamilton fought for the title in 2012 alongside Button (and made him look like a chump). After his victory at Monza, he was second in the championship to Alonso trailing by 37 points. However, mechanicals while leading in Singapore and Abu Dhabi prevented him from having a title shot in the final race where he would have needed Vettel to finish 10th or lower and Alonso to finish 5th or lower.
That's without mentioning the awful pit stops that cost him certain podiums and Hulkenberg crashing him out in the final race.
As I said earlier, I worded it imprecisely - I mean Hamilton wasn't fighting WITH Button for the championship. When he was (against Alonso and later Rosberg), we all saw what happened.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:31 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
He was leading the title race after Belgium in 2010 round 13 of 19 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Belg ... r_the_race
In 2010 he was leading the title race after Canada round 7 of 20 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Form ... _standings
Maybe you need to brush up on your F1 knowledge?
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Button was mathematically in the fight going into the last 2 races and wasn't prepared to help Hamilton so he had to fight Button just like everyone else while Massa was there solely to help Alonso.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:20 pm
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:06 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:35 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:14 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
I think it's more a case of "I love the competition....as long as I come out on top" but wouldn't you expect that off all professional atheletes?
Oh I absolutely get it - what irks me is his fanbase using that as some form of proof that he wants competition.
Yeah no - he wants competition as long as he knows he can beat them. The moment it starts to look tough (see Silverstone 2018) the real side comes out and the toys get thrown out.
When he got punted off the track by Kimi putting him in last place and preventing from winning his home GP, this becomes relentless thread after thread.
That justifies accusing Kimi of cheating?
At the very least it is clear he doesn't want a teammate he knows will give him a tough time, even if he claims he wants competition. If he extends his contract, I fully expect him to want to keep Bottas there.
Watch out for more "supportive" quotes from Hamilton towards Bottas in the coming months, and harping about the importance of continuity going into the new rules. Just hope everyone sees through these transparent attempts to block Russell.
I was just highlighting the circumstances and other drivers have done worse, some you support, even then what has it to do with the kind of teammate that Hamilton wants?
In regards to Bottas I agree that he will want him as his teammate but that's because he believes that Bottas will not look to stab him in the back.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:31 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
He was leading the title race after Belgium in 2010 round 13 of 19 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Belg ... r_the_race
In 2010 he was leading the title race after Canada round 7 of 20 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Form ... _standings
Maybe you need to brush up on your F1 knowledge?
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Button was mathematically in the fight going into the last 2 races and wasn't prepared to help Hamilton so he had to fight Button just like everyone else while Massa was there solely to help Alonso.
Mathematically but not realistically - Massa wasn't even mathematically in the fight so it made sense for him to be supporting Alonso bid (although what exactly did Massa do in the last 2 races to support Alonso in 2010?)
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:32 pm
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:31 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:06 am
He was never fighting for the championship when paired with Button (even though he got beaten).
His true side comes out when he has a team-mate fighting alongside him for the championship. All this "I love competition" is nothing more than a transparent (and at this point boring) PR exercise.
He was leading the title race after Belgium in 2010 round 13 of 19 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Belg ... r_the_race
In 2010 he was leading the title race after Canada round 7 of 20 races.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Form ... _standings
Maybe you need to brush up on your F1 knowledge?
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Button was mathematically in the fight going into the last 2 races and wasn't prepared to help Hamilton so he had to fight Button just like everyone else while Massa was there solely to help Alonso.
Mathematically but not realistically - Massa wasn't even mathematically in the fight so it made sense for him to be supporting Alonso bid (although what exactly did Massa do in the last 2 races to support Alonso in 2010?)
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
This is the standings in 2010 after round 11 of 19 races, keep digging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Germ ... r_the_race
This was the same race that Massa had to gift Alonso the win, before the race Massa was 31 points behind Alonso, he would have closed the gap to 17 points, does Button do that, not a chance..
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 12:46 pm
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:32 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Button was mathematically in the fight going into the last 2 races and wasn't prepared to help Hamilton so he had to fight Button just like everyone else while Massa was there solely to help Alonso.
Mathematically but not realistically - Massa wasn't even mathematically in the fight so it made sense for him to be supporting Alonso bid (although what exactly did Massa do in the last 2 races to support Alonso in 2010?)
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
This is the standings in 2010 after round 11 of 19 races, keep digging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Germ ... r_the_race
This was the same race that Massa had to gift Alonso the win, before the race Massa was 31 points behind Alonso.
Moving goalposts - you are talking about Button and Hamilton, not about Alonso and Massa, and at the 2nd to last race of the season. Stick to your own argument at least.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:04 pm
by mikeyg123
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:34 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
Wasn't part of his reason for leaving McLaren was being unhappy that they were focussing too much on Button?
I'd say he's always struggled when he's had a teammate that can compete with him.
He was leading in the WDC battle, Button was struggling and that became their main concern, this swings round to what's been discussed before in respect to Schumacher and the amount of support each received within their teams.
Yep and Hamilton wasn't happy with that.. I assume because he doesn't overly like the focus of a team to not be on him?
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:38 pm
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:46 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:32 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:03 pm
I didn't word it right - he wasn't fighting for the championship AGAINST his teammate. Not in 2010 (far higher chance of Alonso/Webber/Vettel winning it than Button), and not in 2012 (Button wasn't even remotely in the fight).
Button was mathematically in the fight going into the last 2 races and wasn't prepared to help Hamilton so he had to fight Button just like everyone else while Massa was there solely to help Alonso.
Mathematically but not realistically - Massa wasn't even mathematically in the fight so it made sense for him to be supporting Alonso bid (although what exactly did Massa do in the last 2 races to support Alonso in 2010?)
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
This is the standings in 2010 after round 11 of 19 races, keep digging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Germ ... r_the_race
This was the same race that Massa had to gift Alonso the win, before the race Massa was 31 points behind Alonso.
Moving goalposts - you are talking about Button and Hamilton, not about Alonso and Massa, and at the 2nd to last race of the season. Stick to your own argument at least.
Fair enough forget about Massa and Alonso and address the main point, you said that Button was not a title contender alongside Hamilton, wrong.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:43 pm
by pokerman
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:04 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 11:34 am
pokerman wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:41 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?
I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
Wasn't part of his reason for leaving McLaren was being unhappy that they were focussing too much on Button?
I'd say he's always struggled when he's had a teammate that can compete with him.
He was leading in the WDC battle, Button was struggling and that became their main concern, this swings round to what's been discussed before in respect to Schumacher and the amount of support each received within their teams.
Yep and Hamilton wasn't happy with that.. I assume because he doesn't overly like the focus of a team to not be on him?
To be on the driver that actually had a chance of the title, under Whitmarsh McLaren were slowly becoming a team of losers, Hamilton recognised that and left, McLaren have not won a race since, Whitmarsh got sacked a few years later, Hamilton became the most successful driver in the history of the sport.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:04 pm
by WHoff78
I'm curious where people think George Russell may end up, assuming that one of the Merc seats does not become free in 2022? This will certainly influence Mercedes decision making. Would he really risk going into an environment like Red Bull where the team is focused around Max, rather than wait a little for the team he knows better and may believe will give him greater support? Don't see too many other options. Step-up to Aston would be a good intermediate move, but both drivers there are contacted for 2022, so likely that Vettel would have to call it a day. Unlikely with new regs round the corner. Don't seem to be many options.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
by tootsie323
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:39 pm
by mikeyg123
WHoff78 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:04 pm
I'm curious where people think George Russell may end up, assuming that one of the Merc seats does not become free in 2022? This will certainly influence Mercedes decision making. Would he really risk going into an environment like Red Bull where the team is focused around Max, rather than wait a little for the team he knows better and may believe will give him greater support? Don't see too many other options. Step-up to Aston would be a good intermediate move, but both drivers there are contacted for 2022, so likely that Vettel would have to call it a day. Unlikely with new regs round the corner. Don't seem to be many options.
Thing is, he doesn't know he would only have to wait "a little ". The only reason Mercedes won't go for him would be to keep Hamilton happy and Hamilton might still be around for another 3, 4 or 5 years.
Anything could happen in that time. He could hang around waiting until 2025 and find that he is no longer flavour of the month. Look at Ocon. He was next in line at one point. There is also the plain fact that Merc won't be the team they are now forever. They will have problems eventually. The longer Russell waits the more danger is he comes in at the time that Mercedes fade.
If Red Bull offer him a drive for 2022 it would be a colossal risk to turn them down.
In F1 you don't get many opportunities. You can't turn them down even if they aren't ideal. There's always the next hot young thing coming up behind you.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:40 pm
by Jenson's Understeer
I've said it since last season: Bottas' only hope of being at Mercedes in 2022 is if Lewis retires at the end of 2021.
Now given we've had a whole bunch of news articles yesterday about Lewis wanting a new contract done by the summer break, in addition to Lewis making the rare decision to test next year's tyres, and his previous comments about being excited by the new generation of cars, I think all signs point to him staying around for at least another year. And if that's the case, he'll be doing so alongside a new teammate (I'm 95% sure that'll be Russell, but if Ocon keeps starting and finishing ahead of Fernando, I do think he will start to get a little consideration).
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 pm
by Exediron
Jenson's Understeer wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:40 pm
(I'm 95% sure that'll be Russell, but if Ocon keeps starting and finishing ahead of Fernando, I do think he will start to get a little consideration).
I think if it's not Russell, they'll dynamite whatever feeble respect their young driver program gets at the moment. Compared to the Ferrari or particularly Red Bull YDAs, they have so far placed a grand total of... 0 drivers at their top team.
If they pass over Russell, who's doing everything that could be reasonably expected of him at the back of the field, for a driver from another team's program, I'd wonder at anyone signing with them in the future.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:31 pm
by mikeyg123
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 pm
Jenson's Understeer wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:40 pm
(I'm 95% sure that'll be Russell, but if Ocon keeps starting and finishing ahead of Fernando, I do think he will start to get a little consideration).
I think if it's not Russell, they'll dynamite whatever feeble respect their young driver program gets at the moment. Compared to the Ferrari or particularly Red Bull YDAs, they have so far placed a grand total of... 0 drivers at their top team.
If they pass over Russell, who's doing everything that could be reasonably expected of him at the back of the field, for a driver from another team's program, I'd wonder at anyone signing with them in the future.
The problem is these young drivers rarely have any other option. F3 is fairy cakes pile where you need to drive for Prema to have a hope. These seats are way to expensive to get in without serious help. And don't even dream about F2.
The whole junior system need's a major overhaul really.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:32 pm
by Option or Prime
All his talk a wingman seems to me to be a bit of an irrelevance. In interview at the weekend Hamilton was like an 18yer old kid. He seems to thrive on the competition be it with Verstappen externally or Russell internally.
Verstappen is fast but Hamilton is tactical, his instinct is to get over the line first on the last lap and his avoiding contact at turn 1, lap 1 is evidence of that.
Why should he be worried by Russell, Hamilton has masses of self confidence and just loves to race. He accepted the win by Rosberg in that season and just went back out and did it again. Clearly Rosberg had given everything and it burned him out.
Even if he lost a WDC to another driver he will drive as long as he has that competitive fire. Then he will leave motorsport to go into music, fashion or whatever.
He doesn't care who's in the team because he believes he is the best and after 100 pole positions and close to 100 GP wins he is right isn't he?
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:20 pm
by Jenson's Understeer
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 pm
Jenson's Understeer wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 4:40 pm
(I'm 95% sure that'll be Russell, but if Ocon keeps starting and finishing ahead of Fernando, I do think he will start to get a little consideration).
I think if it's not Russell, they'll dynamite whatever feeble respect their young driver program gets at the moment. Compared to the Ferrari or particularly Red Bull YDAs, they have so far placed a grand total of... 0 drivers at their top team.
If they pass over Russell, who's doing everything that could be reasonably expected of him at the back of the field, for a driver from another team's program, I'd wonder at anyone signing with them in the future.
At least if it were Ocon, there is kind of an argument that Mercedes backed him and got him into F1 etc., and this was just the first realistic opportunity to actually graduate him to the team. It's not the most natural route for a team's young driver to take but at least they're not passing over Russell for someone they've had no investment in whatsoever.
FTR I'd be very, very surprised if Bottas' replacement isn't Russell, but who knows. Maybe Ocon wins a race or something, and Russell continues to fluff the few opportunities he gets at points in a Williams.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:20 am
by Mort Canard
BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:05 pm
My understanding was that McLaren on the whole wanted Hamilton to stay, but there was a not insignificant minority that felt that Button and a strong number 2 would be a better bet for a title bid for 2013. Certainly Martin Whitmarsh and Button had a proper bromance going on. Ultimately though, I think that Hamilton made an emotional decision to leave based on the frustrations of that season.
Back on topic, It really has to be Russell next season and I think it will be. It will give the team the answers they need for the future. If Russell gets 'Vandoorned' then they know he can't lead the team. I strongly suspect he'd be very competitive though.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 7:30 am
by Harpo
I may be wrong but don't all the contracts between Mercedes and their drivers end this year ? By drivers, I mean not only Hamilton and Bottas, but also Russell and Ocon.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:44 am
by DOLOMITE
BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:05 pm
My understanding was that McLaren on the whole wanted Hamilton to stay, but there was a not insignificant minority that felt that Button and a strong number 2 would be a better bet for a title bid for 2013.
Well that's something I've never heard anywhere before.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:50 am
by DOLOMITE
Harpo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:30 am
I may be wrong but don't all the contracts between Mercedes and their drivers end this year ? By drivers, I mean not only Hamilton and Bottas, but also Russell and Ocon.
You're not wrong. Hamilton, Bottas, Russel & Ocon. Plus Perez, Stroll, Gasly, Tsunoda, Raikkonen and Giovanazzi.
Very convenient for Mercedes, but at the same time quite the headache. Wolff has been pretty vocal about the importance of harmony within the team and avoiding a another Hamilton/Rosberg implosion.How much of a risk would that be if Russell was to step up. He's a very confident ambitious driver and will feel he;s done his apprenticeship at Williams as requested so surely if he was to make the move, it would be with the expectation (on his part at least) that he was there to win.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 am
by Paolo_Lasardi
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
It is not so easy, actually, to pinpoint counter-examples. Prost/Lauda 1984, maybe?
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:50 am
by Option or Prime
Option or Prime wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 8:32 pm
All this talk of a wingman seems to me to be a bit of an irrelevance. In interview at the weekend Hamilton was like an 18yer old kid. He seems to thrive on the competition be it with Verstappen externally or Russell internally.
Verstappen is fast but Hamilton is tactical, his instinct is to get over the line first on the last lap and his avoiding contact at turn 1, lap 1 is evidence of that.
Why should he be worried by Russell, Hamilton has masses of self confidence and just loves to race. He accepted the win by Rosberg in that season and just went back out and did it again. Clearly Rosberg had given everything and it burned him out.
Even if he lost a WDC to another driver he will drive as long as he has that competitive fire. Then he will leave motorsport to go into music, fashion or whatever.
He doesn't care who's in the team because he believes he is the best and after 100 pole positions and close to 100 GP wins he is right isn't he?
Oops, sorry I meant to edit but reposted!
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:05 am
by mikeyg123
Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 am
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
It is not so easy, actually, to pinpoint counter-examples. Prost/Lauda 1984, maybe?
Button/Barrichello
Hill/Villeneuve
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am
by DOLOMITE
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:05 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 am
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
It is not so easy, actually, to pinpoint counter-examples. Prost/Lauda 1984, maybe?
Button/Barrichello
Hill/Villeneuve
It's the alpha male thing if you buy into that. I wouldn't say Button or Barrichello were and neither was Hill.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:59 am
by mikeyg123
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:05 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 am
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 12:23 pm
Whenever Hamilton had to fight his teammate for the title the relationship imploded. If he had an actual driver in the other car instead of someone a third/half the grid can beat I can assure you that relationship would not be anywhere as lovey-dovey as it is.
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
It is not so easy, actually, to pinpoint counter-examples. Prost/Lauda 1984, maybe?
Button/Barrichello
Hill/Villeneuve
It's the alpha male thing if you buy into that. I wouldn't say Button or Barrichello were and neither was Hill.
And notable that they only competed for a title for one season. Had that gone on longer perhaps things would have been different.
It's kind of strange when you think about the benefits having two top drivers that no team have ever worked out a way to keep to cockerels in the hen house.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:56 pm
by DOLOMITE
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:59 am
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:05 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:59 am
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm
That's been the case with other teams / teammates though. Piquet/Mansell, Prost/Senna, Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel/Webber, Hamilton/Rosberg. It's not exactly unique to one driver.
I think that any driver wants competition but not the stressful relationship that it may entail. Unfortunately (for them, I'd argue that its great entertainment for the fans), that's what happens.
It is not so easy, actually, to pinpoint counter-examples. Prost/Lauda 1984, maybe?
Button/Barrichello
Hill/Villeneuve
It's the alpha male thing if you buy into that. I wouldn't say Button or Barrichello were and neither was Hill.
And notable that they only competed for a title for one season. Had that gone on longer perhaps things would have been different.
It's kind of strange when you think about the benefits having two top drivers that no team have ever worked out a way to keep to cockerels in the hen house.
My point was that's not just two top drivers - in (relatively) recent years we've had
Alonso/
Hamilton,
Alonso/Button,
Alonso/Raikkonen,
Button/
Villeneuve
Button/
Hamilton
Button/
Alonso
Lets assume that the alphas are in bold, you can see which one blew up.
even Mansell, by all accounts not the easiest character, went up against Andretti, Rosberg, Piquet, Prost (and Hill and Hakkinen).
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm
by Harpo
DOLOMITE wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 8:50 am
Harpo wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:30 am
I may be wrong but don't all the contracts between Mercedes and their drivers end this year ? By drivers, I mean not only Hamilton and Bottas, but also Russell and Ocon.
You're not wrong. Hamilton, Bottas, Russel & Ocon. Plus Perez, Stroll, Gasly, Tsunoda, Raikkonen and Giovanazzi.
Very convenient for Mercedes, but at the same time quite the headache. Wolff has been pretty vocal about the importance of harmony within the team and avoiding a another Hamilton/Rosberg implosion.How much of a risk would that be if Russell was to step up. He's a very confident ambitious driver and will feel he;s done his apprenticeship at Williams as requested so surely if he was to make the move, it would be with the expectation (on his part at least) that he was there to win.
I'm not sure it's that convenient for Mercedes. It means that any driver they are contracted with can be signed by another team for next year, and Russell, for instance, can be signed by RBR while Mercedes is still wondering what should or will be their line-up for 2022.
Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:34 pm
by pokerman
WHoff78 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:04 pm
I'm curious where people think George Russell may end up, assuming that one of the Merc seats does not become free in 2022? This will certainly influence Mercedes decision making. Would he really risk going into an environment like Red Bull where the team is focused around Max, rather than wait a little for the team he knows better and may believe will give him greater support? Don't see too many other options. Step-up to Aston would be a good intermediate move, but both drivers there are contacted for 2022, so likely that Vettel would have to call it a day. Unlikely with new regs round the corner. Don't seem to be many options.
Russell is clearly showing impatient with his situation, if Perez doesn't improve at Red Bull and they start eying up Russell I could see him saying to Wolff if you're not going to give me the Merc seat then let me go.