Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

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Is Bottas Time Up At Mercedes.

Yes. End of the year. He is gone.
23
85%
Yes. He will go by mid season.
1
4%
No. He will hang on for another contract.
3
11%
 
Total votes: 27

wire2004
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Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by wire2004 »

We heard the radio call when lewis was on his charge and chasing down verstappen at the front by 2 seconds a lap.
Every single one of us expected bottas to have let hamilton through at turn 1. Turn 4. Turn 7 or even turn 10. But he battled..
Bottas battled with hamilton. And in a tightly contested championship where the slightest difference could change a race result between verstappen and hamilton. That move could of cost hamilton the championship. It didnt as Hamiltons drive was sublime. But it did have totos first raised in anger and nearly came down and punched his table. But that lap alone allowed verstappen a 6/10th advantage on that lap. Which if was another grand prix. With less laps to go. Maybe would of been the difference between winning and losing.

Has bottas sealed his fate at Mercedes. Is he on his way out of the door. If he is not being compliant with his team to allow his team mate through who is on a different strategy and is 2 seconds a lap faster. Is it time to go

But With Perez as inconsistent as any other red bull team mate since danny Ric. And Mercedes options are up and coming and, well may not be as compliant and given lewis a even more hard time and wanting to prove themselves just as much It's a difficult one.

What's people s views. I'm intreated to know.

Poll options. Yes. Bottas is gone at the end of the year.
Yes. Bottas will go mid season especially if he keeps holding lewis up.
No. Bottas will earn himself a new contract.

A.J.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by A.J. »

I think Bottas already knows his time is up. His defense was hardly worthy of being called that to be honest - it seemed more like it was meant for optics than to actually hold Hamilton up. If he really meant he would have taken the "let him get close to me" route that Hamilton has taken in the past, and not rolled over and allowed Hamilton the better line into the corner.

He faces the impossible task of beating someone who is comprehensively superior to him in every aspect - statistically he has next to no chance of ever winning the title sitting next to Hamilton. Merc will want to build for the future, and that future involves Russell but neither one of Hamilton and Bottas (2-3 years down the line). I predict Russell-Ocon at the Mercs in a couple of years' time, with Gasly replacing Ocon at Alpine (and Bottas hopefully retired).

Kev627
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Kev627 »

I don't think so.
In Hamilton's eyes Bottas is the perfect team mate, he fast enough to run 2nd or 3rd in a race and help keep other drivers further behind Hamilton as he extends his lead but not fast enough to regularly challenge him.

There is no way Hamilton would allow Toto to hire a driver like Verstappen!

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:15 am
I predict Russell-Ocon at the Mercs in a couple of years' time, with Gasly replacing Ocon at Alpine (and Bottas hopefully retired).
Nah. I don't see it. If Russell doesn't have a clear edge over Hamilton when he hangs up his helmet, both Verstappen and Leclerc will be getting a call from Wolff to lead the team.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I'm not totally sure yet. This is the only time Bottas has ever made a team order at Mercedes hard work. I don't really get why this single occurrence has suddenly made it so much more obvious that he's out next season.

I think it is more likely that Russell will be Hamilton's team mate, but I don't think it is tottally out of the question that Bottas may be against Hamilton for another season if Hamilton's happy and Bottas gets the option to stay. Russell may still have to continue improving to make Mercedes go for this move.

It looks extremely likely that Hamilton will be an 8 times WDC at the end of this year, and he could well be happy with that and decide to end his career there and not get the chance to go downhill after that like vettel did after his championships. Not saying that would happen, but it could.

So there are still ways Bottas would still be there. If Hamilton retires, I am totally certain Bottas will stay. If Hamilton stays, I think it is around 75% likely Russell will replace Bottas, But I'm not totally convinced yet. I

Regarding the poll, it is basically like I implied in the last 2 sentences. I think it is most likely he will be gone by the end of the season, but still has several chances of remaining. I very much doubt Mercedes will kick him out mid season. His pace was at least decent in 2 of the races this year and it was only things going against him that stopped him being right up close to Verstappen by the end of the race in Bahrain and Portugal. Which Given the speed of the Red Bull and how highly rated Hamilton and Verstappen are is not too bad for Bottas if he is considered a number 2 driver.

mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

I think Bottas fate was sealed when Russell mugged him at a corner that's not even an overtaking place in Sakir.

inky38
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by inky38 »

Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher

mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?

A.J.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:15 am
I predict Russell-Ocon at the Mercs in a couple of years' time, with Gasly replacing Ocon at Alpine (and Bottas hopefully retired).
Nah. I don't see it. If Russell doesn't have a clear edge over Hamilton when he hangs up his helmet, both Verstappen and Leclerc will be getting a call from Wolff to lead the team.
Oh yes, definitely - my comment is based upon Russell proving himself to be top tier, in the league of Verstappen and Leclerc. Beating Bottas doesn't prove that.

Siao7
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Siao7 »

inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
Good point. Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by F1Tyrant »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting
If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
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A.J.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by A.J. »

So this is the latest - Hamilton should sign a 2 year extension: https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-ham ... extension/

Now let's see if Bottas gets one as well.

Siao7
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting
If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
I doubt Toto would go against Hamilton. Russell can wait for another year on a promise of a Merc seat I would think

mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:24 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting
If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
I doubt Toto would go against Hamilton. Russell can wait for another year on a promise of a Merc seat I would think
But why would Russell get that promise? What would change for 2023 that would mean Mercedes will take him but wouldn't in 2022.

pokerman
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 pm
inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?
I heard it's a 10 year contract started in his junior career either in 2016 or 2017.
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Siao7
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:04 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:24 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting
If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
I doubt Toto would go against Hamilton. Russell can wait for another year on a promise of a Merc seat I would think
But why would Russell get that promise? What would change for 2023 that would mean Mercedes will take him but wouldn't in 2022.
So we were talking about Hamilton staying for another year and obviously wanting Bottas as a teammate, then Russell will only get the seat from 2023, after that one year has passed and Hamilton/Bottas are gone. So I don't understand what you mean here by "what would change for 2023" mikeyg.

To make it clear, Hamilton stays for another year along with Bottas, then he retires and Russell can come in, with or without Bottas Mk13.4.

Just a thought obviously.

mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:43 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:04 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:24 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:46 pm
Hamilton is looking to re-sign with Merc and he will want to keep Bottas next to him. I voted that he'll be out by the end of the year, but this detail may change everything. Contract negotiations can be interesting
If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
I doubt Toto would go against Hamilton. Russell can wait for another year on a promise of a Merc seat I would think
But why would Russell get that promise? What would change for 2023 that would mean Mercedes will take him but wouldn't in 2022.
So we were talking about Hamilton staying for another year and obviously wanting Bottas as a teammate, then Russell will only get the seat from 2023, after that one year has passed and Hamilton/Bottas are gone. So I don't understand what you mean here by "what would change for 2023" mikeyg.

To make it clear, Hamilton stays for another year along with Bottas, then he retires and Russell can come in, with or without Bottas Mk13.4.

Just a thought obviously.
Ah, I didn't know we were assuming only a one year deal for Hamilton. What if Hamilton wants a two or three year contract but no Russell?

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by UnlikeUday »

I really doubt Russell would want to be in a Williams in 2022 as well. His patience already seems to be wearing thin. Also I wonder why they keep signing Bottas just with a 1 year contract.

The thing is Bottas' seat seems safe as long as Hamilton is there as he's an ideal wingman. If Russell would replace him, there's no guarantee he wouldn't want to fight Hamilton for the title & create tension in the Mercedes camp.

However, they should hire Russell. He's getting wasted there at Williams. Toto should set some boundaries between Hamilton & Russell where a clean fight is allowed & no clashes etc.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 pm
inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?
I heard it's a 10 year contract started in his junior career either in 2016 or 2017.
I'm not sure if such a contract would stand up if they clearly hold back his career.

pokerman
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

I voted he's gone but after reading this thread I'm now not sure, It's no surprise to hear a multi-year contract on offer for Hamilton I was expecting a 2 year contract, not bad for a driver said to be overrated and over priced but such opinion on Hamilton appears to still stay strong.

I was thinking a 2 year contract then Hamilton retires and that makes sense to get Russell in the other car however with talk of Hamilton driving into his 40s that then puts a lot of weight on who Hamilton wants in the other car and I would say he prefers Bottas.

He trusts Bottas he's not political and he's not going to crash him out, he's basically a safe pair of hands, can we say the same of Russell, young drivers often run hot and the Imola incident was not great for Russell, what Bottas did not wanting to help Hamilton I guess pales in comparison, the only question is if that becomes signs of a growing dissatisfaction which then breeds a negativity in the team as the season goes on.

Of course in a sporting contest we would like to see Russell in the car to see what he can do, however that being the case I then don't understand the wish for Bottas to retire, for those that don't rate him wouldn't we want to be proven right or is the opposite the case.
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pokerman
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 pm
inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?
I heard it's a 10 year contract started in his junior career either in 2016 or 2017.
I'm not sure if such a contract would stand up if they clearly hold back his career.
I guess all contracts can be bought out, Mercedes have put money into Russell, I doubt he can just walk out of his contract and drive for another team.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm
I voted he's gone but after reading this thread I'm now not sure, It's no surprise to hear a multi-year contract on offer for Hamilton I was expecting a 2 year contract, not bad for a driver said to be overrated and over priced but such opinion on Hamilton appears to still stay strong.

I was thinking a 2 year contract then Hamilton retires and that makes sense to get Russell in the other car however with talk of Hamilton driving into his 40s that then puts a lot of weight on who Hamilton wants in the other car and I would say he prefers Bottas.

He trusts Bottas he's not political and he's not going to crash him out, he's basically a safe pair of hands, can we say the same of Russell, young drivers often run hot and the Imola incident was not great for Russell, what Bottas did not wanting to help Hamilton I guess pales in comparison, the only question is if that becomes signs of a growing dissatisfaction which then breeds a negativity in the team as the season goes on.

Of course in a sporting contest we would like to see Russell in the car to see what he can do, however that being the case I then don't understand the wish for Bottas to retire, for those that don't rate him wouldn't we want to be proven right or is the opposite the case.
I think Mercedes would be wrong to be too obsessed about keeping Hamilton at any cost.

I've not see anyone wanting Bottas to retire.

pokerman
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm
I voted he's gone but after reading this thread I'm now not sure, It's no surprise to hear a multi-year contract on offer for Hamilton I was expecting a 2 year contract, not bad for a driver said to be overrated and over priced but such opinion on Hamilton appears to still stay strong.

I was thinking a 2 year contract then Hamilton retires and that makes sense to get Russell in the other car however with talk of Hamilton driving into his 40s that then puts a lot of weight on who Hamilton wants in the other car and I would say he prefers Bottas.

He trusts Bottas he's not political and he's not going to crash him out, he's basically a safe pair of hands, can we say the same of Russell, young drivers often run hot and the Imola incident was not great for Russell, what Bottas did not wanting to help Hamilton I guess pales in comparison, the only question is if that becomes signs of a growing dissatisfaction which then breeds a negativity in the team as the season goes on.

Of course in a sporting contest we would like to see Russell in the car to see what he can do, however that being the case I then don't understand the wish for Bottas to retire, for those that don't rate him wouldn't we want to be proven right or is the opposite the case.
I think Mercedes would be wrong to be too obsessed about keeping Hamilton at any cost.

I've not see anyone wanting Bottas to retire.
Well it was mooted he should be paid at least 50% less and yes that was said of Bottas.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm
I voted he's gone but after reading this thread I'm now not sure, It's no surprise to hear a multi-year contract on offer for Hamilton I was expecting a 2 year contract, not bad for a driver said to be overrated and over priced but such opinion on Hamilton appears to still stay strong.

I was thinking a 2 year contract then Hamilton retires and that makes sense to get Russell in the other car however with talk of Hamilton driving into his 40s that then puts a lot of weight on who Hamilton wants in the other car and I would say he prefers Bottas.

He trusts Bottas he's not political and he's not going to crash him out, he's basically a safe pair of hands, can we say the same of Russell, young drivers often run hot and the Imola incident was not great for Russell, what Bottas did not wanting to help Hamilton I guess pales in comparison, the only question is if that becomes signs of a growing dissatisfaction which then breeds a negativity in the team as the season goes on.

Of course in a sporting contest we would like to see Russell in the car to see what he can do, however that being the case I then don't understand the wish for Bottas to retire, for those that don't rate him wouldn't we want to be proven right or is the opposite the case.
I think Mercedes would be wrong to be too obsessed about keeping Hamilton at any cost.

I've not see anyone wanting Bottas to retire.
Well it was mooted he should be paid at least 50% less and yes that was said of Bottas.
By who?

mikeyg123
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 pm
inky38 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:34 pm
Forgetting the team orders situation at the last race, there are a couple of other things that have to be considered.

Hamilton looking to sign a new contract
Russell's current contract is up at the end of the year.

If Merc fail to go for Russell, then surely another team will grab him potentially under a long term contract. Could this be the bigger worry for them?

So if Merc are concerned with one of their 'older' drivers and want to introduce a bit of youth (other than Russell), then as far as 'youngsters' go, the only other options are Lando and the yet unproven Mick Schumacher
With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?
I heard it's a 10 year contract started in his junior career either in 2016 or 2017.
I'm not sure if such a contract would stand up if they clearly hold back his career.
I guess all contracts can be bought out, Mercedes have put money into Russell, I doubt he can just walk out of his contract and drive for another team.
In British contract laws fairness matters. If a contract is unfair then it's not enforceable. I imagine a hugely long term contract someone signed before they were 20 with a massive power in balance between the parties could easily be found unfair if Mercedes were seen to be deliberately damaging Russell's career in a way that could not reasonably have been foreseen.

JN23
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:04 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:02 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:55 pm
I voted he's gone but after reading this thread I'm now not sure, It's no surprise to hear a multi-year contract on offer for Hamilton I was expecting a 2 year contract, not bad for a driver said to be overrated and over priced but such opinion on Hamilton appears to still stay strong.

I was thinking a 2 year contract then Hamilton retires and that makes sense to get Russell in the other car however with talk of Hamilton driving into his 40s that then puts a lot of weight on who Hamilton wants in the other car and I would say he prefers Bottas.

He trusts Bottas he's not political and he's not going to crash him out, he's basically a safe pair of hands, can we say the same of Russell, young drivers often run hot and the Imola incident was not great for Russell, what Bottas did not wanting to help Hamilton I guess pales in comparison, the only question is if that becomes signs of a growing dissatisfaction which then breeds a negativity in the team as the season goes on.

Of course in a sporting contest we would like to see Russell in the car to see what he can do, however that being the case I then don't understand the wish for Bottas to retire, for those that don't rate him wouldn't we want to be proven right or is the opposite the case.
I think Mercedes would be wrong to be too obsessed about keeping Hamilton at any cost.

I've not see anyone wanting Bottas to retire.
Well it was mooted he should be paid at least 50% less and yes that was said of Bottas.
By who?
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:15 am
I predict Russell-Ocon at the Mercs in a couple of years' time, with Gasly replacing Ocon at Alpine (and Bottas hopefully retired).

JN23
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by JN23 »

I'm pretty certain we'll see a Hamilton-Russell line up for Mercedes next year.

Bottas probably hasn't been told yet but the writing seems to be on the wall and I think Bottas being difficult yesterday shows that he knows time is up. Thing is, if he's going to be difficult when it comes to situations like that, one of the few reasons for Merc to keep him disappears.

Siao7
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:43 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:04 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:24 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm

If Hamilton has the leverage to keep Russell out that will be a terrible shame. I hope Toto gives him an ultimatum and he has the choice of pulling a Schumacher or facing Russell. I'd be happy to see him retire if his continual involement scuppers Russell's progression.
I doubt Toto would go against Hamilton. Russell can wait for another year on a promise of a Merc seat I would think
But why would Russell get that promise? What would change for 2023 that would mean Mercedes will take him but wouldn't in 2022.
So we were talking about Hamilton staying for another year and obviously wanting Bottas as a teammate, then Russell will only get the seat from 2023, after that one year has passed and Hamilton/Bottas are gone. So I don't understand what you mean here by "what would change for 2023" mikeyg.

To make it clear, Hamilton stays for another year along with Bottas, then he retires and Russell can come in, with or without Bottas Mk13.4.

Just a thought obviously.
Ah, I didn't know we were assuming only a one year deal for Hamilton. What if Hamilton wants a two or three year contract but no Russell?
Ah, in fairness it wasn't really discussed. I just said that they could wait for a year, depending I guess what is the new contract's length. I haven't really given it much thought to be honest. Good question!

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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by j man »

The thing here is that Mercedes don't necessarily need the best driver available to put in that second seat. They need someone who is quick enough to keep Hamilton on his toes, beat Perez regularly and stay close enough to Verstappen to limit his pit strategy options. Bottas has ticked all those boxes so far, though I did feel he had too many 4th and 5th places in 2018 when Ferrari were providing some closer competition.

Having said that, Mercedes do need to keep Russell on their books as a long term replacement for Hamilton, and they risk losing him if they keep delaying his promotion. On that basis, I think they have to move Bottas on at the end of the year, and his apparent unwillingness to comply with a straightforward team order suggests to me that the deal is done. I'm no fan of team orders generally but there was nothing contentious about what the team was asking Bottas to do in this instance.

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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:58 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:38 pm


With Russell... His Williams contract is up at the end of 2021 but is his Merc contract up?
I heard it's a 10 year contract started in his junior career either in 2016 or 2017.
I'm not sure if such a contract would stand up if they clearly hold back his career.
I guess all contracts can be bought out, Mercedes have put money into Russell, I doubt he can just walk out of his contract and drive for another team.
In British contract laws fairness matters. If a contract is unfair then it's not enforceable. I imagine a hugely long term contract someone signed before they were 20 with a massive power in balance between the parties could easily be found unfair if Mercedes were seen to be deliberately damaging Russell's career in a way that could not reasonably have been foreseen.
Fair enough and I hope that's true if it means Russell can get himself in a better car than the Williams.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by A.J. »

j man wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
The thing here is that Mercedes don't necessarily need the best driver available to put in that second seat. They need someone who is quick enough to keep Hamilton on his toes, beat Perez regularly and stay close enough to Verstappen to limit his pit strategy options. Bottas has ticked all those boxes so far, though I did feel he had too many 4th and 5th places in 2018 when Ferrari were providing some closer competition.

Having said that, Mercedes do need to keep Russell on their books as a long term replacement for Hamilton, and they risk losing him if they keep delaying his promotion. On that basis, I think they have to move Bottas on at the end of the year, and his apparent unwillingness to comply with a straightforward team order suggests to me that the deal is done. I'm no fan of team orders generally but there was nothing contentious about what the team was asking Bottas to do in this instance.
That's a fair assessment - we as fans want the Mercs to race each other, but obviously Wolff and Hamilton want a second driver in the other car, not someone taking points off Hamilton. Bottas is incapable of doing the latter, but he's filled the wingman role well.

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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

I think Russell will replace Bottas for 2022. Mercedes need to find out whether Russell is good enough to lead the team after Hamilton. Beating Latifi does not help with this assessment at the end of the day.

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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Tufty »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:59 pm
I've not see anyone wanting Bottas to retire.
A.J. said exactly this further up the page.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Mort Canard »

JN23 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:28 pm
I'm pretty certain we'll see a Hamilton-Russell line up for Mercedes next year.

Bottas probably hasn't been told yet but the writing seems to be on the wall and I think Bottas being difficult yesterday shows that he knows time is up. Thing is, if he's going to be difficult when it comes to situations like that, one of the few reasons for Merc to keep him disappears.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Mort Canard »

I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by Exediron »

Mort Canard wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?

I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by DOLOMITE »

It's a tricky one because you have to think about what Merc/Toto need, not want us as fans want. Your criteria for making a decision around Bottas isn't "is he the best driver available" it's "does he do the job we need him to do". Anyone "better" is could actually be problematic. They've had a clean sweep of titles. The only concern now would be that Max is inbetween the two Merc drivers in the WDC but Merc are still leading the WCC. Would someone better start unsettling things and "take points away" from Hamilton. This looks to be be the kind of year where that would be a genuine risk. Points are 90-84-47. What if Bottas had snuck in a win at Hamiltons expense? I don't like the all-eggs-in-one-basket approach but at times like this I do understand it.

The second issue is not Bottas, then who. Russell appears to be the obvious choice but Ocon is putting himself back on the radar.

And this all assumes Hamilton stays, which it looks like he will. But if not, then Mercs focus is a lead driver, which Bottas doesn't appear to be. So Max? In which case again you're looking for a strong no 2. Or take a punt on Russel stepping up? In which case Bottas would actually be a handy teammate.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by F1Tyrant »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 am
It's a tricky one because you have to think about what Merc/Toto need, not want us as fans want.
Toto needs to consider the future and needs to assess if Russell can lead the team. For all the talk of Hamilton driving into his forties, it would be unwise to leave Hamilton unchallenged as age starts to chip away at his abilities.
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by DOLOMITE »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:40 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 am
It's a tricky one because you have to think about what Merc/Toto need, not want us as fans want.
Toto needs to consider the future and needs to assess if Russell can lead the team. For all the talk of Hamilton driving into his forties, it would be unwise to leave Hamilton unchallenged as age starts to chip away at his abilities.
Maybe, I don't know. I don't think I'd want to deal with an on-the-way-out Hamilton being challenged after all those years. I think with his record, he's either there and (unofficial) no 1, or he retires.
The alternative is that that you get Russell/Ocon in as a clear understudy for a "transition" year, but that doesn't seem to be their style - at least not openly!
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Re: Is bottas time up at Mercedes.

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:52 am
Mort Canard wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
I am not convinced that Lewis merely wants a wingman. He has always enjoyed competition with rivals where there is some mutual respect. Lewis and Sebastian were almost always on good terms and could quickly get past racing incidents without causing much drama. As Max has matured he and Lewis have found a decent working relationship. The only real drivers that Lewis has had problems with were Fernando Alonso who was expecting Lewis to be his wingman, and Nico Rosberg who had to use every trick in his tool kit to take the 2016 championship and had to get inside Lewis's head to do it.
So in other words, the two teammates he had who actually gave him difficulty?

I agree with what others have said. Lewis wants competition, but he doesn't want it coming from inside his own team.
I would say he wants fair competition within his team and not deal with the politics of Alonso or the shenanigans of Rosberg, he had no real problems with Button.
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