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Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:26 pm
by Alienturnedhuman
While, mathematically - 100 is an arbitrary number - obviously, at a human level being the first driver to get into the 3 digit tally of poles is a significant moment in F1 history. So it probably warrants a thread.
I guess we could do so by listing our top Hamilton poles of his first 100, and maybe the mods can do a ranked poll of some of the crowd favourites?
https://twitter.com/HillF1/status/1391044640376250368
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:31 pm
by F1Tyrant
- 2018 Singapore
- 2020 Styria
- 2011 Korea
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 3:35 pm
by BMWSauber84
I never thought we'd see a driver achieve 100 poles, a quite remarkable achievement. It's difficult to compare him to great qualifiers of the past due to the changes in qualifying format, but it's not bad for a driver who didn't see himself as a guy who puts it on pole after he secured his first F1 pole one back in 07.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 pm
by LBET
Great accomplishment. Nice one S'Lewis!
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:42 pm
by JN23
A brilliant achievement.
Singapore 2018 stands out as the best to me but Styria 2020 is up there too.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:45 pm
by BlackMan
1. Singapore 2018
2. Silverstone 2013
3. Korea 2011
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:14 pm
by Invade
My memory lasts about 2-3 years, with a heavy bias toward the most recent year.
So 2020 Styria does it for me. Hamilton was majestic throughout and crushed the competition. Shame that Max didn't complete his final flying lap in those difficult full wet conditions, but he'd have still been about half a second down on Hamilton.
But for shock factor and narrative, Singapore 2018 was a bolt out of the blue, and it was an immaculate lap.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:16 pm
by JN23
Speaking of Singapore 2018, looks like Hamilton is speaking to Brundle about it on the pre-race show tomorrow.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:07 pm
by Alienturnedhuman
Today was the 1039th F1 race. Hamilton started from pole at 100 of those. If he gets 5 poles from the next 11 races he will have 105 poles from 1050 races meaning that 10% of F1 races had Hamilton on pole.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:57 pm
by f1madman
Alienturnedhuman wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 9:07 pm
Today was the 1039th F1 race. Hamilton started from pole at 100 of those. If he gets 5 poles from the next 11 races he will have 105 poles from 1050 races meaning that 10% of F1 races had Hamilton on pole.
that is mind blowing
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:22 am
by MistaVega23
His pole lap at Silverstone 2007 was mega, although back then it was qualifying with race fuel so not exactly a 'level' playing field.
Singapore 2018 is my choice.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 9:51 am
by pokerman
MistaVega23 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 9:22 am
His pole lap at Silverstone 2007 was mega, although back then it was qualifying with race fuel so not exactly a 'level' playing field.
He was only on pole because of the amount of fuel in his car, one reason I hated race fuelled qualifying so much.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 3:39 pm
by tim3003
Not wanting to belittle such a milestone, but Senna got 65 poles in 161 races - that's 40.4%.
Hamilton has 100 in 270 races, that's 37.0%.
Senna's cars were not as consistently at the sharp end as Hamilton's, as the 7:3 titles ratio shows. So whose is the greater achievement?
(Fangio had 29 poles from 51 starts, which is 56.9%. But that's so far in the past I dont think comparison is valid.)
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:14 pm
by F1Tyrant
tim3003 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:39 pm
Not wanting to belittle such a milestone, but Senna got 65 poles in 161 races - that's 40.4%.
Hamilton has 100 in 270 races, that's 37.0%.
Senna's cars were not as consistently at the sharp end as Hamilton's, as the 7:3 titles ratio shows. So whose is the greater achievement?
Senna has an excellent claim to being the qualifying GOAT.
Senna got 44 poles between 1988-1991 (67%). Hamilton had 75 poles (75%) in 2007, 2014-2021. 2007 included as McLaren would have won the WCC, it's 69 poles (69%) without. So Senna had a higher % of poles when not driving a WCC car. Although, you could argue Hamilton has converted more of his pole opportunities while he had excellent machinery.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:06 pm
by Invade
tim3003 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:39 pm
Not wanting to belittle such a milestone, but Senna got 65 poles in 161 races - that's 40.4%.
Hamilton has 100 in 270 races, that's 37.0%.
Senna's cars were not as consistently at the sharp end as Hamilton's, as the 7:3 titles ratio shows. So whose is the greater achievement?
(Fangio had 29 poles from 51 starts, which is 56.9%. But that's so far in the past I dont think comparison is valid.)
And where do you draw the line for comparison...
It's not like a flip of the switch where suddenly drivers and circumstances become comparable. At this point, Senna's time was an age ago. Can we compare Clark to Senna? Clark had a better percentage himself, and there's a similar sorta gap between those two as between Senna and Hamilton.
At what point do drivers and their records become legit? Or at what point to they become commensurable?
As for whose achievement is greater... well in terms of who I think was the better qualifier relative to their contemporaries, it's Senna.
Now, how about Senna vs Clark?
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:39 pm
by j man
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 3:31 pm
- 2018 Singapore
- 2020 Styria
- 2011 Korea
Nailed it with these three. I don't recall Korea 2011 really getting the right recognition at the time, perhaps because his form and on-track antics that season had rendered him quite unpopular among a lot of fans.
Could also mention Monza 2017 which was strikingly similar to the Styria pole in terms of the gap to the rest of the field but in conditions that were not quite as bad and, in my opinion, on a less challenging circuit.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:42 pm
by A.J.
Invade wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:06 pm
tim3003 wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 3:39 pm
Not wanting to belittle such a milestone, but Senna got 65 poles in 161 races - that's 40.4%.
Hamilton has 100 in 270 races, that's 37.0%.
Senna's cars were not as consistently at the sharp end as Hamilton's, as the 7:3 titles ratio shows. So whose is the greater achievement?
(Fangio had 29 poles from 51 starts, which is 56.9%. But that's so far in the past I dont think comparison is valid.)
And where do you draw the line for comparison...
It's not like a flip of the switch where suddenly drivers and circumstances become comparable. At this point, Senna's time was an age ago. Can we compare Clark to Senna? Clark had a better percentage himself, and there's a similar sorta gap between those two as between Senna and Hamilton.
At what point do drivers and their records become legit? Or at what point to they become commensurable?
As for whose achievement is greater... well in terms of who I think was the better qualifier relative to their contemporaries, it's Senna.
Now, how about Senna vs Clark?
I actually think Hamilton is a better racer than a qualifier - his Merc rocketships have massively enhanced his reputation for him to be in this conversation. Let's not forget his record against Alonso is comparable to Jarno Trulli's record against Alonso - while impressive due to him being a rookie (albeit with the team's backing), it hardly belongs to the GOAT category.
Senna was legitimately one of the greatest ever qualifiers, as was Clark - they stood head and shoulders above their contemporaries, and for the greatest qualifier ever it has to be one of the two really.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:15 pm
by F1Tyrant
A.J. wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:42 pm
I actually think
Hamilton is a better racer than a qualifier - his Merc rocketships have massively enhanced his reputation for him to be in this conversation.
While I don't disagree that Clark and Senna have very strong claims to qualifying GOAT, the bolded is absolute rubbish. I've had a few discussions with mikeyg123 about this topic but Hamilton's record has always suggested he is a stronger qualifier than a racer.
The only person to ever beat Sir Lewis on a Saturday is Nico Rosberg in 2014. However, in race finishes excluding mechanical DNFs he's been beaten by Alonso (10-7 in 2007), Button (9-7 in 2011) and Rosberg (9-7 in 2013).
Hamilton has had several outstanding qualifying performances with the only non-Red Bull pole in 2011 and one of the few non-Red Bull poles in 2010.
It's only since 2012 that Hamilton has consolidated his racing consistency. Before that he was a 'stick it on pole and drive away' type of winner like Vettel was.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
by scouseknight
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:15 pm
It's only since 2012 that Hamilton has consolidated his racing consistency. Before that he was a 'stick it on pole and drive away' type of winner like Vettel was.
So the past 9 years then - I would argue that A.J. has a point here to be honest.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:54 am
by Exediron
scouseknight wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 1:25 am
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:15 pm
It's only since 2012 that Hamilton has consolidated his racing consistency. Before that he was a 'stick it on pole and drive away' type of winner like Vettel was.
So the past 9 years then - I would argue that A.J. has a point here to be honest.
Yeah, Hamilton since 2012 is actually significantly more of his career now than Hamilton before 2012. By the end of his career, that section will represent probably only about a third of his total races, and far less of his total statistical impact on the sport.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
by A.J.
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 7:15 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 5:42 pm
I actually think
Hamilton is a better racer than a qualifier - his Merc rocketships have massively enhanced his reputation for him to be in this conversation.
While I don't disagree that Clark and Senna have very strong claims to qualifying GOAT, the bolded is absolute rubbish. I've had a few discussions with mikeyg123 about this topic but Hamilton's record has always suggested he is a stronger qualifier than a racer.
The only person to ever beat Sir Lewis on a Saturday is Nico Rosberg in 2014. However, in race finishes excluding mechanical DNFs he's been beaten by Alonso (10-7 in 2007), Button (9-7 in 2011) and Rosberg (9-7 in 2013).
Hamilton has had several outstanding qualifying performances with the only non-Red Bull pole in 2011 and one of the few non-Red Bull poles in 2010.
It's only since 2012 that Hamilton has consolidated his racing consistency. Before that he was a 'stick it on pole and drive away' type of winner like Vettel was.
I would say 10-6 for 2013, if we include the Malaysia TO. I am not arguing that Hamilton is not a good qualifier - I am saying he isn't anywhere as good as his number of poles seem to suggest (much like his entire career actually).
P.S. Don't mean to derail this thread, but I find your use of honorific titles issued by a horribly evil and outdated institution to be a little ironic in light of your woke attitude towards social issues
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am
by F1Tyrant
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
I would say 10-6 for 2013, if we include the Malaysia TO.
I'd be inclined to agree but If I made adjustments for his unfortunate puncture at Silverstone then it's still 9-7.
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
I am saying he isn't anywhere as good as his number of poles seem to suggest (much like his entire career actually).
Hamilton's comfortably in the top 5 qualifiers of all time IMO. Only Senna, Schumacher and Clark have a clearly superior record and neither Clark or Schumacher faced a top qualifier as a teammate unlike Senna or Hamilton.
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
P.S. Don't mean to derail this thread, but I find your use of honorific titles issued by a horribly evil and outdated institution to be a little ironic in light of your woke attitude towards social issues
It's firmly tongue-in-cheek. My avatar is Sir Lewis as a medieval knight.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 11:15 am
by A.J.
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
I would say 10-6 for 2013, if we include the Malaysia TO.
I'd be inclined to agree but If I made adjustments for his unfortunate puncture at Silverstone then it's still 9-7.
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
I am saying he isn't anywhere as good as his number of poles seem to suggest (much like his entire career actually).
Hamilton's comfortably in the top 5 qualifiers of all time IMO. Only Senna, Schumacher and Clark have a clearly superior record and neither Clark or Schumacher faced a top qualifier as a teammate unlike Senna or Hamilton.
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
P.S. Don't mean to derail this thread, but I find your use of honorific titles issued by a horribly evil and outdated institution to be a little ironic in light of your woke attitude towards social issues
It's firmly tongue-in-cheek. My avatar is Sir Lewis as a medieval knight.
I am unsure of where to rank Hamilton on qualifying - I do think he's top 10-15 of all time (primarily on account of his consistency), but his pole record is down to simply having to beat one other car for pretty much 8 years running (with some exceptions) and counting - which is also something he didn't always manage, even when paired with a chump like Bottas.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
by tootsie323
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:32 pm
by A.J.
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump -
his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
How? He outqualified a completely past it Massa by a smaller margin than Alonso - and the one shot at pole they had went to Massa. Maybe "chump" is too strong, but he's hardly even close to top tier.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:40 pm
by F1Tyrant
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 5:32 pm
Maybe "chump" is too strong, but he's hardly even close to top tier.
From 2013-2016, Bottas built a strong reputation of putting his car higher up on the grid than it deserved and firmly defending, often brilliantly.
Just because the defensive part has regressed horribly doesn't mean the reputation he built was false.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:43 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 5:32 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump -
his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
How? He outqualified a completely past it Massa by a smaller margin than Alonso - and the one shot at pole they had went to Massa. Maybe "chump" is too strong, but he's hardly even close to top tier.
Bottas has managed to outqualify the best qualifier in history pretty much exactly a third of the time in their 4 full seasons together. He's beaten Hamilton 25/79 times and a third of 79 is 26.3.
In 2019, Bottas even got as many poles as Hamilton managed. And in both of the last 2 seasons, Bottas has frequently been incredibly close as someone did a list of the multiple occasions where they were separated by only a few hundredths. I believe the average gap between them was one the closest of the field for the past 2 seasons. Certainly in the top 3 anyway.
You could even add that compared to Hamilton, he's managed to get through to Q3 in every single weekend with Mercedes. Hamilton failed to do this on 3 occasions that were his own fault.
If Bottas is able to do this well against Hamilton, I think you are under rating Massa. Bottas did basically dominate Massa in qualifying (especially in 2016), but Massa wasn't "completely past it" Even the year he unexpectedly continued after expecting to retire, it could be seen he still showed some real speed. This wasn't qualifying, but a race such as baku, he almost certainly would have won if his car didn't have the issue.
Bottas isn't as good as Hamilton or Verstappen, and I think Leclerc would have the edge too, but I don't really think there are any other drivers that would definitely beat bottas in a qualifying head to head. I think it can be said that Bottas is reasonably close in qualifying pace to the top drivers. Not nowhere near or the statistics wouldn't be like they are for him against Hamilton.
He is much weaker in races, but that isn't what we are discussing.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:09 pm
by Exediron
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am
Hamilton's comfortably in the top 5 qualifiers of all time IMO. Only Senna, Schumacher and Clark have a clearly superior record and neither Clark or Schumacher faced a top qualifier as a teammate unlike Senna or Hamilton.
I'd just like to point out that Prost was never thought of as a weak qualifier before he partnered Senna, and never lost to a teammate in qualifying again afterward. He dominated (an admittedly aging) Niki Lauda, destroyed Keke Rosberg, and firmly out-qualified Mansell as well before finishing off with Damon Hill. Prost had more world champion teammates than just about anyone, and Senna was the only one he wasn't decisively quicker than in qualifying.
Senna was so special in qualifying that he could make another top qualifier from his era look slow in qualifying. That's something Hamilton has not achieved. If he had partnered Alonso and utterly demolished him in qualifying, forcing him to abandon quali entirely and focus only on the race, that would be equivalent to what Senna did to Prost.
(And I should note for anyone unfamiliar with my posting history that I am
not a fan of Senna. I do think he and Clark stand alone as the most dominant qualifiers in F1 history)
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 pm
by Invade
Forget Leclerc having the "edge" against Bottas — I'd be quite optimistic in him equalling or beating Hamilton and Verstappen. Leclerc is quite consistent and has ridiculous peak performance in qualifying, no?
Anyway, we do need to contextualise Hamilton's achievement and remember that he's had an inordinate amount of opportunity to put the car on pole throughout his career.
He might have 130 pole positions before he's done.
If Senna had equal opportunity, what do you suppose his pole count would've been?
I'll go ahead and suggest it would've been quite a bit more than 100, given evidence of his raw speed and his success rate against team-mates.
Other than that, of course this is one of the many fantastic achievements Lewis Hamilton has accomplished (to have so many pole positions, not that it's specifically a century of them). It is very impressive. And he is one of the finest qualifiers in history, who has had pretty good intrateam competition regarding qualifying.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:27 pm
by F1Tyrant
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:09 pm
I'd just like to point out that Prost was never thought of as a weak qualifier before he partnered Senna, and never lost to a teammate in qualifying again afterward. He dominated (an admittedly aging) Niki Lauda, destroyed Keke Rosberg, and firmly out-qualified Mansell as well before finishing off with Damon Hill.
I'm well aware, Prost being the eponymous strong qualifier that Senna faced, I wasn't referring to Elio de Angelis!
Exediron wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:09 pm
Senna was so special in qualifying that he could make another top qualifier from his era look slow in qualifying.
I completely agree with this assessment. Hamilton has merely been a small margin quicker than all his teammates aside from Button who he dominated in qualifying. However, ironically, Button actually has one of the most dominant qualifying performances in F1 history against Sato at BAR.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:31 am
by A.J.
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 6:43 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 5:32 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump -
his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
How? He outqualified a completely past it Massa by a smaller margin than Alonso - and the one shot at pole they had went to Massa. Maybe "chump" is too strong, but he's hardly even close to top tier.
Bottas has managed to outqualify the best qualifier in history pretty much exactly a third of the time in their 4 full seasons together. He's beaten Hamilton 25/79 times and a third of 79 is 26.3.
In 2019, Bottas even got as many poles as Hamilton managed. And in both of the last 2 seasons, Bottas has frequently been incredibly close as someone did a list of the multiple occasions where they were separated by only a few hundredths. I believe the average gap between them was one the closest of the field for the past 2 seasons. Certainly in the top 3 anyway.
You could even add that compared to Hamilton, he's managed to get through to Q3 in every single weekend with Mercedes. Hamilton failed to do this on 3 occasions that were his own fault.
If Bottas is able to do this well against Hamilton, I think you are under rating Massa. Bottas did basically dominate Massa in qualifying (especially in 2016), but Massa wasn't "completely past it" Even the year he unexpectedly continued after expecting to retire, it could be seen he still showed some real speed. This wasn't qualifying, but a race such as baku, he almost certainly would have won if his car didn't have the issue.
Bottas isn't as good as Hamilton or Verstappen, and I think Leclerc would have the edge too, but I don't really think there are any other drivers that would definitely beat bottas in a qualifying head to head. I think it can be said that Bottas is reasonably close in qualifying pace to the top drivers. Not nowhere near or the statistics wouldn't be like they are for him against Hamilton.
He is much weaker in races, but that isn't what we are discussing.
I think you're confusing "statistically most successful" with "best" - I'm sure even the most die-hard Hamilton fans will struggle to put him above Senna/Clark as far as qualifying goes. All that tells me is how massively overrated Hamilton is in qualifying, simply due to the number of poles. If beating Bottas is the criteria for becoming the greatest qualifier then over a third of the current grid could be it.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:21 am
by tim3003
Despite rating Senna as the best, I have to admit that only for 2 years (Prost) did he have a world champion team-mate to be measured against. The greatness of his achievement rests on the 2nd or even 3rd rate cars he had, except for the 4 Mclaren years 88-91. Hamilton has had first rate cars for most of his F1 years, as well as 3 champion team-mates. Maybe that evens them out a bit. (I'm using the term 'first rate car' for a potentially championship-winning one).
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am
by F1Tyrant
A.J. wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:31 am
If beating Bottas is the criteria for becoming the greatest qualifier then over a third of the current grid could be it.
...and Rosberg ...and Vettel, Raikkonen and Leclerc at Ferrari in 2017-2019 ...and Verstappen and Ricciardo at Red Bull in 2016-present. Only Rosberg and Leclerc have deprived him of the coveted FIA Pole Trophy!
To claim Hamilton has had no stiff competition to secure the pole record he has is just silly. I expect you are trying to push poker's buttons though.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:52 am
by A.J.
F1Tyrant wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 11:39 am
A.J. wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 9:31 am
If beating Bottas is the criteria for becoming the greatest qualifier then over a third of the current grid could be it.
...and Rosberg ...and Vettel, Raikkonen and Leclerc at Ferrari in 2017-2019 ...and Verstappen and Ricciardo at Red Bull in 2016-present. Only Rosberg and Leclerc have deprived him of the coveted FIA Pole Trophy!
To claim Hamilton has had no stiff competition to secure the pole record he has is just silly. I expect you are trying to push poker's buttons though.
I swear I'm not trying to bait him
But are you seriously claiming that from 2014 on Hamilton has had "stiff competition", when in reality there has been 1 or at most 2 guys he needed to beat - and most of the time it was his own team-mate. At least Rosberg was respectable, but Bottas is a waste of a top seat. And Rosberg was around for only 3 of those dominant years, while Bottas (what is it now, 5.0?) continues to meander around in his wingman role. You bring up Verstappen/Ricciardo/Raikkonen/Leclerc - just how many times exactly were they in contention for pole in the last 8 years? I would be shocked if the number is more than 10-20% of the time.
Maybe someone more statistically minded can crunch the numbers to show how many times the race for pole was between Hamilton and one other driver (his teammate) in the last 8 years - such dominance is simply unprecedented, and the sole reason behind the numbers. For the sake of the sport I hope it never happens again - I am happy for the Hamilton fans to cling on to the stats for their feeble claims of his greatness.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:54 pm
by A.J.
Oh it is make up numbers day?
Mazepin's stats in F1 place him as faster than Schumacher based on Imola qualifying - one is a great, the other is a chump, go figure.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:06 pm
by pokerman
It's these made up numbers that are being used as evidence for Max being faster than Hamilton over 1 lap which doesn't seem to get challenged with the same gusto.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:31 pm
by A.J.
Perhaps it's not being "challenged with the same gusto" because people don't have such a hard time believing Max might indeed be faster than Hamilton - although I find it funny how the goalposts keep moving in every conversation with you.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:43 pm
by pokerman
A.J. wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:31 pm
Perhaps it's not being "challenged with the same gusto" because people don't have such a hard time believing Max might indeed be faster than Hamilton - although I find it funny how the goalposts keep moving in every conversation with you.
What goalposts, I always respect what the data is telling me, anyway you don't believe in such things that's nice to know, I guess it leaves you free to believe whatever you want to believe.
Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:46 pm
by A.J.
pokerman wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:43 pm
A.J. wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:31 pm
Perhaps it's not being "challenged with the same gusto" because people don't have such a hard time believing Max might indeed be faster than Hamilton - although I find it funny how the goalposts keep moving in every conversation with you.
What goalposts, I always respect what the data is telling me, anyway you don't believe in such things that's nice to know, I guess it leaves you free to believe whatever you want to believe.
"What goalposts" - indeed.
Summarizes pretty much every conversation you have on here.