Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

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Exediron
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
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A.J.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.

For now it is Bottas who takes that title. Modern day Trulli minus Trulli's qualifying pace.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.
Mmm... There was another driver who spent 5 years in a WCC winning car who in one season won 0 races to his teammate's 9...

Oh wait...

His teammate was Schumacher in 2001 and he was clearly just performing miracles in a piece of rubbish as opposed to extracting the potential of a decent car.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
Absolutely, if he keeps finishing half a minute behind. Look at how utterly being at Red Bull trashed the reputation of Max's prior teammates.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bottas gets more shade thrown his way for being unable to match Hamilton than Max's teammates get? People were calling Gasly a joke who shouldn't even be on the grid, and Albon is gone now. No one says that level of vitriol about Bottas.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by tootsie323 »

There's an alternative view. Maybe Bottas and Perez are actually good drivers (and the evidence from previous teams seems to support this) and that Hamilton and Verstappen are simply a step above.
It has already been suggested that these two (along with Leclerc) are the 'tier 1' drivers currently on the grid. I;m pretty sure that this does not make for three good drivers and 17 chumps.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:41 am
There's an alternative view. Maybe Bottas and Perez are actually good drivers (and the evidence from previous teams seems to support this) and that Hamilton and Verstappen are simply a step above.
It has already been suggested that these two (along with Leclerc) are the 'tier 1' drivers currently on the grid. I;m pretty sure that this does not make for three good drivers and 17 chumps.

:thumbup:

Some people seem to be only capable of talking in absolutes.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:48 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:41 am
There's an alternative view. Maybe Bottas and Perez are actually good drivers (and the evidence from previous teams seems to support this) and that Hamilton and Verstappen are simply a step above.
It has already been suggested that these two (along with Leclerc) are the 'tier 1' drivers currently on the grid. I;m pretty sure that this does not make for three good drivers and 17 chumps.

:thumbup:

Some people seem to be only capable of talking in absolutes.
Yes, the old "Verstappen can't fight for the WDC because his team mate isn't competitive like the Mercedes number 2 driver meaning he can't fight Hamilton who is over rated because his team mate is really slow" argument.

The idea that Hamilton or Verstappen are a God who can add a second of a lap to car performance is peak internet crowd think. Their performances will largely be what the car is capable of, no driver can make a car go faster than it is capable of going (and before anyone jumps in with Hamilton going faster than Mercedes's computer said was physically possible at Singapore, that's just exposing the inaccuracy of Mercedes computer, not the laws of physics)

The differences between team mates are not absolute either, as different cars have different difficulty curves - with the Mercedes having quite a low curve and the Red Bull appearing to have one of the biggest. If you had moved Verstappen and Albon to the W11, Max would have still be faster but I don't think Albon would have had the same relative performance gap.

Bottas and Perez are both great drivers. Formula 1 has a problem of having too few competitive seats for the top drawer drivers. George Russell still being in a Williams and Hulkenberg being without a seat shows that. The seats with 'questionable' drivers in them are all at the back of the grid - the fact that Williams is seen as the most likely seat Bottas could move to if he leaves Mercedes is proof of that.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.
Mmm... There was another driver who spent 5 years in a WCC winning car who in one season won 0 races to his teammate's 9...

Oh wait...

His teammate was Schumacher in 2001 and he was clearly just performing miracles in a piece of rubbish as opposed to extracting the potential of a decent car.
But that same driver towards the end of his career then matched/beat Button - who we all know subsequently beat Hamilton outright in one season, and also outscored him in their time overall together as a teammate.

Mmmm...what does that say about Hamilton, I wonder?

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:05 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.
Mmm... There was another driver who spent 5 years in a WCC winning car who in one season won 0 races to his teammate's 9...

Oh wait...

His teammate was Schumacher in 2001 and he was clearly just performing miracles in a piece of rubbish as opposed to extracting the potential of a decent car.
But that same driver towards the end of his career then matched/beat Button - who we all know subsequently beat Hamilton outright in one season, and also outscored him in their time overall together as a teammate.

Mmmm...what does that say about Hamilton, I wonder?
Suggesting Barrichello matched Button's performance when they were team mates is hugely revisionist. In the two years that they had a competitive car, Button was substantially ahead of him. The 2007/2008 cars were like Williams in 2019/2020 - making the results rather meaningless as points relied on the attrition rate, but even then it was a season apiece.

Yes, Barrichello was faster in some races than Button, but it's not like Austria 2001 and 2002 were a thing is it?

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:05 am
But that same driver towards the end of his career then matched/beat Button - who we all know subsequently beat Hamilton outright in one season, and also outscored him in their time overall together as a teammate.
If Bottas got all the nuance and asterisks that Barrichello recieves, this wouldn't even be a discussion. There is a vested interest to deify Schumacher now Hamilton has taken a lot of his records, the same interests denigrate Hamilton simultaneously. I even agree the Schumacher was a stronger driver than Hamilton but there is enough there to make an (not particularly strong) argument to the contrary.

Button was clearly better in the races than Barrichello by a consistient margin similar in size to the one Hamilton held over Button. They were close enough to cause an upset though. Both Button and Barrichello were incredibly sensitive to the cars they drove but Button was clearly more adaptable and made the most of the opportunities to maximise results when the cars were at their most competitive in 2006 and early 2009.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by karas »

A.J. wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:05 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.
Mmm... There was another driver who spent 5 years in a WCC winning car who in one season won 0 races to his teammate's 9...

Oh wait...

His teammate was Schumacher in 2001 and he was clearly just performing miracles in a piece of rubbish as opposed to extracting the potential of a decent car.
But that same driver towards the end of his career then matched/beat Button - who we all know subsequently beat Hamilton outright in one season, and also outscored him in their time overall together as a teammate.

Mmmm...what does that say about Hamilton, I wonder?
Says that he beat button overall relying on talent and speed but now has naturally grown into a complete driver. I think the way seasons work they don't sort of add up multiple seasons by points and give the hardware to the one with most points. Sirius though I usually lurk here and have a bit of laugh at these types of "if this driver that" discussions. I think if we go wild enough one can say maybe red bull should have given the trouble second sit to the torpedo. Maybe these things do make sense sometimes and redbull could have had there driver for the second seat.
Last edited by karas on Thu May 13, 2021 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.

For now it is Bottas who takes that title. Modern day Trulli minus Trulli's qualifying pace.
Dominant in 2017 and 2018? Even in 2019 Leclerc in the Ferrari had more poles, and you must have already determined the Mercedes as being dominant this year, no surprise after reading the relevant thread.

Bottas continues to be thrashed by drivers in inferior machinery? He's finished twice the last 2 years in the WDC.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.
Mmm... There was another driver who spent 5 years in a WCC winning car who in one season won 0 races to his teammate's 9...

Oh wait...

His teammate was Schumacher in 2001 and he was clearly just performing miracles in a piece of rubbish as opposed to extracting the potential of a decent car.
Touché. :)
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:24 pm
Bottas is hardly a chump - his one-lap pace had been demonstrated before he joined Mercedes.
As for Hamilton - he may well be that good. Trouble is, as alluded to, he has been a bit limited in genuine competition he has had to face over a number of years so it can be difficult to use a proper benchmark.
Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
Absolutely, if he keeps finishing half a minute behind. Look at how utterly being at Red Bull trashed the reputation of Max's prior teammates.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bottas gets more shade thrown his way for being unable to match Hamilton than Max's teammates get? People were calling Gasly a joke who shouldn't even be on the grid, and Albon is gone now. No one says that level of vitriol about Bottas.
You're comparing Bottas' performances with Gasly and Albon, they were night and day different, neither Gasly or Albon would have lost their seats if they had performed as well as Bottas.

Red Bull would be happy for Perez to perform at a similar level to Bottas but apparently that's chump level.
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A.J.
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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:47 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm

Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
If he sits in a championship winning car (dominant for most of the time at that) for 5 years running and continues to be thrashed by his teammate (and others in inferior machinery). Maybe one of those years he will win 0 races while his teammate wins 11.

For now it is Bottas who takes that title. Modern day Trulli minus Trulli's qualifying pace.
Dominant in 2017 and 2018? Even in 2019 Leclerc in the Ferrari had more poles, and you must have already determined the Mercedes as being dominant this year, no surprise after reading the relevant thread.

Bottas continues to be thrashed by drivers in inferior machinery? He's finished twice the last 2 years in the WDC.
I said dominant for most, not all (not 2017 when they were merely superior, and certainly not for 2018 when they were roughly equal) - your rage blinds you sometimes. 2019 the Merc still had more poles than anyone else - Hamilton couldn't even beat Bottas, which ties in with the theme that he's massively overrated in qualifying.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:15 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:30 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 pm

Yeah Bottas' qualifying stats place him as just 1 tenth slower than Alonso, Alonso on the one hand would be ventured as a great, Bottas a chump, go figure.
If Bottas was as competitive in races as he is in qualifying, you know he wouldn't get nearly the flack he does. He's become almost a modern-day Jarno Trulli.
I wonder if Perez will start to get called a chump?
Absolutely, if he keeps finishing half a minute behind. Look at how utterly being at Red Bull trashed the reputation of Max's prior teammates.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bottas gets more shade thrown his way for being unable to match Hamilton than Max's teammates get? People were calling Gasly a joke who shouldn't even be on the grid, and Albon is gone now. No one says that level of vitriol about Bottas.
You're comparing Bottas' performances with Gasly and Albon, they were night and day different, neither Gasly or Albon would have lost their seats if they had performed as well as Bottas.

Red Bull would be happy for Perez to perform at a similar level to Bottas but apparently that's chump level.
You are right, they were night and day different - Verstappen put a gap between himself and the 2nd driver in a way Hamilton has never been able to. I don't have an iota of doubt he would humiliate Bottas in the 2nd seat the same way he has the other drivers.

The only one who could keep up was Ricciardo (the guy who beat Vettel), and even he left after being unable to get the better of Verstappen. Just shows the level at which he is driving, unlike Hamilton who gets outqualified a third of the time by his really weak teammate.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Hamilton's race pace is more impressive than his qualifying pace these days aside but that's not to say he can't wow on Saturday. Singapore 2018 was phenomenal as was Styria 2020 to name but a few.

Verstappen is no doubt extremely quick, but for me he's too much of a 'headless chicken' and over drives when it really matters in qualifying. I know Mercedes have been the best car and engine combo by quite a margin during Max's F1 career so far, but I still think 4 pole positions (although one was taken away from him) is a poor return for someone with that pace given that he's arguably let a few decent opportunities slip away at Monaco alone (something he might out right this time).

For my money, Charles Leclerc is the current one lap king. He has been putting some very mediocre cars a fair bit higher up than they've any right to be.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by SlipstreamF1 »

When cars are perfect (like in qualifying) there's very little difference between drivers. It's all about keeping it together on race day, not making mistakes and also being able to extract the most out of a car that's been through hell on the track, with worn tires, maybe a slightly crooked front wing, scratched/banged up up floor or body pieces that can affect aerodynamics, being able to maximize your drive by taking optimum lines in traffic, being able to fend off a driver threatening to overtake without slowing yourself down, overtaking a slower car at just the right moment, etc. Over a whole race that could lead to a 5-10 second advantage over a driver who's your equal only in qualifying with a perfect car.

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Re: Lewis Hamilton - 100 Poles Milestone Thread

Post by A.J. »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:46 pm
Hamilton's race pace is more impressive than his qualifying pace these days aside but that's not to say he can't wow on Saturday. Singapore 2018 was phenomenal as was Styria 2020 to name but a few.

Verstappen is no doubt extremely quick, but for me he's too much of a 'headless chicken' and over drives when it really matters in qualifying. I know Mercedes have been the best car and engine combo by quite a margin during Max's F1 career so far, but I still think 4 pole positions (although one was taken away from him) is a poor return for someone with that pace given that he's arguably let a few decent opportunities slip away at Monaco alone (something he might out right this time).

For my money, Charles Leclerc is the current one lap king. He has been putting some very mediocre cars a fair bit higher up than they've any right to be.
I largely agree with your assessment. I do think the Red Bull is more "peaky" to drive, and a lot of Verstappen's mistakes are down to him pushing too hard - once he masters this skill, we might see him lose half a tenth in outright pace but gain overall in consistency. I do feel he (along with Leclerc) is one of the fastest guys on the grid on a single lap - time will tell if they can keep this up, but the signs are good.

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