Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

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F1Tyrant
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Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1Tyrant »

The first three races of the 2021 championship have been exhilarating and bode well for a massive showdown over the next 20 races. However, one thing I've noticed is a running theme of errors from the title contenders this year.

Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
Would it be fair to suggest that both of are contenders are getting a bit hot under the collar from the pressure of an extremely competitive title fight? It's unbelievable to think that Verstappen has never won a championship before but this may be his undoing as he learns how to build a title campaign.

Either way, I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by JN23 »

Other than Hamilton's off at Tosa all of these were pretty minor errors.

I was wondering if these are mistakes that drivers (incl. Hamilton and Verstappen) do just make, but we don't really notice because they're minor and the fight at the front hasn't been close. Now it's close, the small errors are more noticeable. What do people think?

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

JN23 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:36 pm
Other than Hamilton's off at Tosa all of these were pretty minor errors.

I was wondering if these are mistakes that drivers (incl. Hamilton and Verstappen) do just make, but we don't really notice because they're minor and the fight at the front hasn't been close. Now it's close, the small errors are more noticeable. What do people think?
Consequences are not proportional to the scale of the error that caused them. Tosa is definitely the only error that resulted in significant consequences (which the red flag later mitigated) but it in terms of the scale of error it was probably less than some of the more invisible errors that were not even listed here. For example, how Max managed his opening stint yesterday - after passing Hamilton - is a prime example, especially contrasting to how Hamilton managed it behind him. Max sat on Bottas's gearbox throughout the stint, whereas Hamilton was taking wider lines through the corner, deliberately seeking the cooler air, knowing he could close the gap when they got to DRS. The result was Max cooked his brakes and tyres, leading to the scruffy lap prior to the pass, with two errors, one earlier in the lap that brought Hamilton much closer to him, and then the final one leading onto the main straight - these errors would not have happened if he had shown better judgement in managing his stint. In terms of an error I would say this is far worse than any of the errors listed above, even though the consequences were not as dramatic as it was a constant - lap after lap - error in judgement, versus a brief onosecond lapse (which in changeable conditions is going to happen to everyone)

There is no doubt that Hamilton is having to make chancier decisions than he has done in previous competitions - but that is because at the moment he does believe that Red Bull have a stronger car for most circuits at the moment. I think that the moment he is confident the cars will be equal, or the advantage swings to Mercedes completely, he will adopt the Prost like mentality that have secured him the last 4 championships.

Max is certainly showing the difference that having expectation has. When he was stealing wins, there was no real consequence to messing up, so those performances were delivered without scrutiny or pressure. We did get glimpses - thought - of pressure affected him, most notably when he was expect to get pole at Mexico 2018, and Ricciardo snatched it from him. However I would not say this is a Verstappen issue - it affects all drivers of his age and experience. Hamilton's scruffy 2011 season - when he tried to out deliver what the car was capable of because he had a sniff of victory. Like Hamilton back then - no one is doubting his absolute speed - but absolute speed / raw pace - is only a small part of an F1 driver's complete package. A championship campaign means not only dealing with that pressure, but also knowing which battles to pick and how to keep your car in there when you are on the back foot.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Siao7 »

I would disregard the track limits, as everyone (or in this case both) does it. It only became a matter because Max lost the fastest lap, but I wouldn't count it as a separate mistake

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1_Ernie »

Max lost pole because of track limits not just fastest lap. Every mistake counts atm because if Max starts pole we could have seen a different result. Hamilton really got away with one in Imola though.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Clarky »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:43 am
I would disregard the track limits, as everyone (or in this case both) does it. It only became a matter because Max lost the fastest lap, but I wouldn't count it as a separate mistake
And pole position.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Option or Prime »

Clarky wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:59 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:43 am
I would disregard the track limits, as everyone (or in this case both) does it. It only became a matter because Max lost the fastest lap, but I wouldn't count it as a separate mistake
And pole position.
Perhaps the race as well since the whole Red Bull race set both strategy and craws based on Max getting poll and being able to keep Hamilton behind him!

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 pm
The first three races of the 2021 championship have been exhilarating and bode well for a massive showdown over the next 20 races. However, one thing I've noticed is a running theme of errors from the title contenders this year.

Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
Would it be fair to suggest that both of are contenders are getting a bit hot under the collar from the pressure of an extremely competitive title fight? It's unbelievable to think that Verstappen has never won a championship before but this may be his undoing as he learns how to build a title campaign.

Either way, I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
I think for Verstappen you have to add:
- half-spin behind the SC in Imola
- losing FL-point because of violating track limits again in Portimao.

Tracks like Imola in the wet and Portimao in general my provide more challenge to drivers than Sakhir.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Option or Prime »

Christian Horner said at the weekend that he found the track limits issue to be inconsistent, my feeling is that he really shouldn't be surprised that the fastest lap required drivers to stay within track limits as its basically a quality lap in the race.
I really like the fact that track limits are being implemented to be honest.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Siao7 »

Clarky wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:59 am
Siao7 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:43 am
I would disregard the track limits, as everyone (or in this case both) does it. It only became a matter because Max lost the fastest lap, but I wouldn't count it as a separate mistake
And pole position.
Yes, I forgot that.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by tim3003 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:52 am
Christian Horner said at the weekend that he found the track limits issue to be inconsistent, my feeling is that he really shouldn't be surprised that the fastest lap required drivers to stay within track limits as its basically a quality lap in the race.
I really like the fact that track limits are being implemented to be honest.
Agreed. Assuming you meant 'qualifying lap'..
The odd case of running wide in the race can be allowed if the driver doesnt obviously gain from it, but where fastest lap is concerned it has to be a totally legal lap like in qualifying. It's a bit rich for Horner and Coulthard to complain about inconsistency. If they took the trouble to try to understand the reasoning behind the rule it would make sense.

This whole issue seems to have flared up very recently. I'm assuming it's because tracks like Mugello and Portimao which are also used for motorcycling cant have lower grip sufaces just beyond the kerbs. In the past an F1 driver would be on the grass or in the gravel so there was no reason to deliberately run wide. I think they should find some new lower grip material if the old ones are too dangerous for bikes..
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Johnson »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:41 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 pm
The first three races of the 2021 championship have been exhilarating and bode well for a massive showdown over the next 20 races. However, one thing I've noticed is a running theme of errors from the title contenders this year.

Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
Would it be fair to suggest that both of are contenders are getting a bit hot under the collar from the pressure of an extremely competitive title fight? It's unbelievable to think that Verstappen has never won a championship before but this may be his undoing as he learns how to build a title campaign.

Either way, I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
I think for Verstappen you have to add:
- half-spin behind the SC in Imola
- losing FL-point because of violating track limits again in Portimao.

Tracks like Imola in the wet and Portimao in general my provide more challenge to drivers than Sakhir.
Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
  3. Did not cover Verstappen on the inside at Imola start
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
  5. Half-spin behind the SC in Imola
  6. losing FL-point because of violating track limits again in Portimao.
It feels like Max is really pushing to the absolute limit, so many track limit issues so far this year.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:07 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:41 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 pm
The first three races of the 2021 championship have been exhilarating and bode well for a massive showdown over the next 20 races. However, one thing I've noticed is a running theme of errors from the title contenders this year.

Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
Would it be fair to suggest that both of are contenders are getting a bit hot under the collar from the pressure of an extremely competitive title fight? It's unbelievable to think that Verstappen has never won a championship before but this may be his undoing as he learns how to build a title campaign.

Either way, I'm very excited for the rest of the season!
I think for Verstappen you have to add:
- half-spin behind the SC in Imola
- losing FL-point because of violating track limits again in Portimao.

Tracks like Imola in the wet and Portimao in general my provide more challenge to drivers than Sakhir.
Hamilton
  1. Crash at Tosa in the wet.
  2. Misjudgement on the restart at Portimao.
  3. Did not cover Verstappen on the inside at Imola start
Verstappen
  1. Exceeded track limits at T4 at Bahrain.
  2. Poor Q3 lap at Imola.
  3. Exceeded track limits again during Q3 at Portimao.
  4. Error at the final corner in Portimao allowing Hamilton to overtake.
  5. Half-spin behind the SC in Imola
  6. losing FL-point because of violating track limits again in Portimao.
It feels like Max is really pushing to the absolute limit, so many track limit issues so far this year.
:thumbup:

It may very well look completely different in a couple of races but so far Verstappen did not perform very well, despite his enormous speed and potential.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by WHoff78 »

In fairness Hamilton/Bottas are a much more experienced and stable driver pairing at current than the Red Bull pairing and it must help that both have both been with the team for the length of time they have. Could they also be better at guiding the development of the car and general speed in a manner that maintains greater balance and stability?

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

Option or Prime wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:52 am
Christian Horner said at the weekend that he found the track limits issue to be inconsistent, my feeling is that he really shouldn't be surprised that the fastest lap required drivers to stay within track limits as its basically a quality lap in the race.
I really like the fact that track limits are being implemented to be honest.
I feel the same way, the only complaint I would have is the lazy attitude to policing T4 in the race at Bahrain like this is going to be a lot of hassle so let's be a bit lax until ironically Red Bull kind of complained about it.

Ultimately I think there should be track limits on every corner not just the ones deemed to be were you can gain time, to that end I'm quite happy for it to be the kerb rather than the white line, when Max was all 4 wheels beyond the kerb at T14 and then got fastest lap I immediately thought surely that can't stand.

I also feel that perhaps it's no coincidence that it was the one corner that caused him problems all weekend, the corner that lost him position to Hamilton, for his fast lap it felt like to me he said to himself this corner for this one lap is not going to be a problem I'm simply going to abuse the track limit.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Both Verstappen and Hamilton are at the top of their game and showing the way for all drivers to emulate. The only other driver that could be included in this conversation is LeClair, he is punching above his weight in an obviously inferior car.

In the intensely heated competition between Hamilton and Verstappen, because they are pushing each other to the limits, there will be mistakes. They are not robots, they are very human, dealing with the immense prssure not only in just being in Formula One, but battling each other.

Because each driver is pressuring each other so intensely, we see the best and worst of each driver. Personally, the "worst" is less than worth noting, because the "best" we are seeing is just wonderful for any racing fan.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Verstappen's long pit stop was caused because he came into the pits without being called in by Red Bull, so they weren't prepared for him.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... p/6505803/

This is either a driver error, or he came in because Hamilton was about to pass him on track, Hamilton was 0.7s at the DRS point. It would have meant Hamilton wouldn't have got the benefit of the tow, but either way a weird thing to happen.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by DOLOMITE »

I don't know if I'd call it an error as such, but Hamilton was definitely caught off guard by Verstappens superb move into the first corner.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1Tyrant »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 am
I don't know if I'd call it an error as such, but Hamilton was definitely caught off guard by Verstappens superb move into the first corner.
Verstappen's move was brave and bold. Hamilton had every right to hold his line and have an accident. The fact he lived to fight another day and still won shows his mastery of race management. Sir Lewis might even have surpassed Prost in that regard.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1_Ernie »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:06 pm
Verstappen's long pit stop was caused because he came into the pits without being called in by Red Bull, so they weren't prepared for him.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... p/6505803/

This is either a driver error, or he came in because Hamilton was about to pass him on track, Hamilton was 0.7s at the DRS point. It would have meant Hamilton wouldn't have got the benefit of the tow, but either way a weird thing to happen.
Hamilton was catching Verstappen extremly fast on that lap and it was around 0.5 after existing the chicane. Verstappens tyres looked shot and we know Mercedes look after its tyres better and Max said himself Lewis was faster at the end of the stint on the softs. I personally think the overtake was happening and Max/RB was expecting a one stop race, if Hamilton overtakes then its race over.

It must have been a last ditch decision by Max which i actually think was the right decision. Keeping track position was key for them with the strategy they thought was best.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Siao7 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 am
I don't know if I'd call it an error as such, but Hamilton was definitely caught off guard by Verstappens superb move into the first corner.
I thought the opposite; it reinforced the brilliant racecraft from Hamilton to avoid contact and to live and fight for another day (or another, later lap in this case!). I'll have to re-watch it I guess!

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by DOLOMITE »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:08 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 am
I don't know if I'd call it an error as such, but Hamilton was definitely caught off guard by Verstappens superb move into the first corner.
I thought the opposite; it reinforced the brilliant racecraft from Hamilton to avoid contact and to live and fight for another day (or another, later lap in this case!). I'll have to re-watch it I guess!
It was brilliant driving from both - Verstappen for the commitment and control, and Hamilton for reacting in a way that avoided contact and keeping a sensible head about what to do once the pass was made. Top-drawer stuff from both.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Siao7 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:33 am
Siao7 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:08 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:55 am
I don't know if I'd call it an error as such, but Hamilton was definitely caught off guard by Verstappens superb move into the first corner.
I thought the opposite; it reinforced the brilliant racecraft from Hamilton to avoid contact and to live and fight for another day (or another, later lap in this case!). I'll have to re-watch it I guess!
It was brilliant driving from both - Verstappen for the commitment and control, and Hamilton for reacting in a way that avoided contact and keeping a sensible head about what to do once the pass was made. Top-drawer stuff from both.
:thumbup:

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Exediron »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
It's not his first time making up a pit stop. But in this case, there really wasn't much time to warn the team, and I think pitting was the correct call. So I wouldn't count this one as a mistake personally.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
Surely only a mistake if pitting was a bad call?

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:37 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
Surely only a mistake if pitting was a bad call?
Exediron wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:11 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
It's not his first time making up a pit stop. But in this case, there really wasn't much time to warn the team, and I think pitting was the correct call. So I wouldn't count this one as a mistake personally.
He didn't make a call to pit. He 'thought' he had been called in to the pits and came in - they weren't ready for him, and it was only them seeing him trundling down the pitlane that the mechanics scrambled to get out. It's a miracle he only lost 2 seconds. It was a massive mistake that could have lost him far more than it did.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by mikeyg123 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:49 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:37 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
Surely only a mistake if pitting was a bad call?
Exediron wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:11 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:29 am
If we add in even what only resulted in very little loss, verstappen made a mistake this weekend by not warning his team about his pit stop on lap 24. He suddenly decided to come in himself without warning them apparently. As Red Bull almost always do, They dealt with it without crumbling and got it done in 4.2 seconds. Other teams (like Mercedes) probably would have crumbled here and taken a few seconds longer. verstappen was lucky here - but he had already lost out.

But this was something relevant to add to this thread IMO.
It's not his first time making up a pit stop. But in this case, there really wasn't much time to warn the team, and I think pitting was the correct call. So I wouldn't count this one as a mistake personally.
He didn't make a call to pit. He 'thought' he had been called in to the pits and came in - they weren't ready for him, and it was only them seeing him trundling down the pitlane that the mechanics scrambled to get out. It's a miracle he only lost 2 seconds. It was a massive mistake that could have lost him far more than it did.
Surely that depends why he thought he'd been called in? There must have been some reason.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1_Ernie »

I will be interested to know what actually happened but I'm not sure we will get the full details. To me Max decided to pit late into that lap as his tyres looked shot and Hamilton was coming fast at him, the overtake looked like happening the following lap and before the race it was Maxs/RB believe that one stop was the way to go, if he gets overtaken the next lap then it's over. To me it seems like it was Max's call which ending up being correct at that time of the race.
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Invade
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Invade »

I heard that the words "next lap" were confused with "this lap."

Cannot confirm.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1_Ernie »

Invade wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 pm
I heard that the words "next lap" were confused with "this lap."

Cannot confirm.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/

Not on the radio transcipts plus why didnt Max press the pit to confirm button.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Invade »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:39 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 pm
I heard that the words "next lap" were confused with "this lap."

Cannot confirm.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/

Not on the radio transcipts plus why didnt Max press the pit to confirm button.
:thumbup:

Thanks for that. Looks like Max took some potentially smart initiative here. Probably his best punt?

Edit: Or maybe not, as the following suggests confusion more than anything else.


Verstappen: Yeah okay. We’ll discuss after the race what went wrong.
Lambiase: Yeah I know what’s happened.
Verstappen: It’s okay.


Pretty strange. Perhaps code gone wrong.

Anyway, wasn't costly.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1_Ernie »

Invade wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:43 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:39 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 pm
I heard that the words "next lap" were confused with "this lap."

Cannot confirm.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/11/wel ... -analysis/

Not on the radio transcipts plus why didnt Max press the pit to confirm button.
:thumbup:

Thanks for that. Looks like Max took some potentially smart initiative here. Probably his best punt?

Edit: Or maybe not, as the following suggests confusion more than anything else.


Verstappen: Yeah okay. We’ll discuss after the race what went wrong.
Lambiase: Yeah I know what’s happened.
Verstappen: It’s okay.


Pretty strange. Perhaps code gone wrong.

Anyway, wasn't costly.
There was nothing before the pitstop that told Max to box and Max didnt confirm he was boxing unless other teams can see this so that's why he didnt confirm? Which I doubt. I can only see it being a code gone wrong or Max decided to box. When I watched the race again Hamilton was really catching Max fast and was closer than ever after the chicane.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/22/ham ... p-changes/

Not sure if i can add this here. As it is known that Hamilton can find this track tricky. But his performance today wasn't a lot better than 2017 where his slow laps cost him a q3 appearance.

He seems rather critical towards the team about his setup changes.

This has certainly become a regular pattern for hamilton that when he (rarely) gets poor results in qualifying - he's quite quick to say it is the car or the team. Even when he gets narrowly beaten by Bottas, he usually starts saying things like he didn't have the ideal lap, whereas if he'd beaten Bottas by a tiny margin, he will have had a great lap.

To me, he just didn't look comfortable today, but the car did look much more capable and given hamilton's reputation, maybe his performance could get mentioned here.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Invade »

It's obviously a huge 'error'. Of all the races to mess up qualifying, Monaco is the worst. Here, qualifying often almost is the race. It will dictate for the most part the overall quality of Hamilton's weekend, for which he's likely to be marked poorly by the media outlets and most fans.

This is Hamilton's second potentially rather costly error, but can he get away with it again like he did at Imola?

His car was one of 6 capable of pole and he ended up in 7th. Nowhere is qualifying more important than in Monaco, no?

We can say that part of Hamilton's poor performance was on the team, on his engineers, blah blah --- but ultimately it's Hamilton driving the car, and he got walloped by his teammate and qualified out of position.

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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by F1Tyrant »

Hamilton hates this track and this year he just can't get the tyres up to temperature on low grip surfaces.

Turns out being a tyre whisperer has some downsides.

Max will be tiddled he didn't nail it on the first one!
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 8:45 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/22/ham ... p-changes/

Not sure if i can add this here. As it is known that Hamilton can find this track tricky. But his performance today wasn't a lot better than 2017 where his slow laps cost him a q3 appearance.

He seems rather critical towards the team about his setup changes.

This has certainly become a regular pattern for hamilton that when he (rarely) gets poor results in qualifying - he's quite quick to say it is the car or the team. Even when he gets narrowly beaten by Bottas, he usually starts saying things like he didn't have the ideal lap, whereas if he'd beaten Bottas by a tiny margin, he will have had a great lap.

To me, he just didn't look comfortable today, but the car did look much more capable and given hamilton's reputation, maybe his performance could get mentioned here.
He seems critical because he was having warm up issues with the tyres and had his own ideas on what direction the car should be taken but got ignored.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 10:19 pm
He seems critical because he was having warm up issues with the tyres and had his own ideas on what direction the car should be taken but got ignored.
I'd accept that, but Bottas was able to make the car go quickly. If both Mercs were slow it would be reasonable to blame the team, but this seems like a driver just not being able to get the same out of his car as his teammate. That's usually considered to be the driver's fault.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:22 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 10:19 pm
He seems critical because he was having warm up issues with the tyres and had his own ideas on what direction the car should be taken but got ignored.
I'd accept that, but Bottas was able to make the car go quickly. If both Mercs were slow it would be reasonable to blame the team, but this seems like a driver just not being able to get the same out of his car as his teammate. That's usually considered to be the driver's fault.
You always take the performance for what it is, It's on Hamilton to work better with his engineers, in this instance would it be considered strange he wasn't listened to or do the engineers generally have the last say, there's still no guarantee that Hamilton would have performed better of course but there did seem to be some strange disconnect.

That being said Monaco must be one of Hamilton's worse tracks, some of his worse performances have been at Monaco mixed up with some very good performances, he seems to have a love/hate relationship with the track.
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Re: Uncharacteristic errors from Hamilton and Verstappen

Post by EPROM »

Exediron wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 12:22 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 10:19 pm
He seems critical because he was having warm up issues with the tyres and had his own ideas on what direction the car should be taken but got ignored.
I'd accept that, but Bottas was able to make the car go quickly. If both Mercs were slow it would be reasonable to blame the team, but this seems like a driver just not being able to get the same out of his car as his teammate. That's usually considered to be the driver's fault.
For Hamilton to be about a half second slower than Bottas (with no particular incident to explain the difference) in Q3 does seem kind of unusual.

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