Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

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KingVoid
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by KingVoid »

I’ve just seen some onboards from Vettel in Imola and I must say that I was very impressed by some of his racecraft.

The thing with Vettel is that he makes some absolutely bonehead mistakes, but he also makes some absolutely beautiful overtakes. It’s the complete opposite of Bottas, who rarely makes mistakes, but also rarely makes any beautiful overtakes that actually require courage.

Here’s his move on Alonso:



Here’s his defence on Perez:



And here’s his move on Ocon:

https://streamable.com/qpgjc6

I actually think it’s an interesting debate. Who has better racecraft, Vettel or Bottas? I am curious to find out how members on this forum define racecraft. Is it merely always staying out of trouble, or does it require showing bravery?

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Vettel has far better race craft. He makes mistakes but he does actually try and race.

Bottas doesn't really have any race craft.

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Exediron
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Exediron »

Bottas is perceived as not making mistakes because he doesn't attempt any moves.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 am
Bottas is perceived as not making mistakes because he doesn't attempt any moves.
Yes, it's pretty easy to not get involved in incidence if you never try and pass anyone or never put up any resistance to anyone trying to overtake you.

kleefton
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by kleefton »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:57 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 am
Bottas is perceived as not making mistakes because he doesn't attempt any moves.
Yes, it's pretty easy to not get involved in incidence if you never try and pass anyone or never put up any resistance to anyone trying to overtake you.

Id say Bottas is a pretty good defending driver but he has very little offensive skills. I remember him keeping Hamilton behind in the Williams. Agree that Vettel has more race craft though alrhough he can at times look clumsy and lack spatial awareness.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:57 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 am
Bottas is perceived as not making mistakes because he doesn't attempt any moves.
Yes, it's pretty easy to not get involved in incidence if you never try and pass anyone or never put up any resistance to anyone trying to overtake you.

Id say Bottas is a pretty good defending driver but he has very little offensive skills. I remember him keeping Hamilton behind in the Williams. Agree that Vettel has more race craft though alrhough he can at times look clumsy and lack spatial awareness.
Bottas was a good defender in his Williams days but at Merc he' terrible. Well, he basically doesn't defend.

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Schermerhorn
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:10 pm
kleefton wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:57 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 am
Bottas is perceived as not making mistakes because he doesn't attempt any moves.
Yes, it's pretty easy to not get involved in incidence if you never try and pass anyone or never put up any resistance to anyone trying to overtake you.

Id say Bottas is a pretty good defending driver but he has very little offensive skills. I remember him keeping Hamilton behind in the Williams. Agree that Vettel has more race craft though alrhough he can at times look clumsy and lack spatial awareness.
Bottas was a good defender in his Williams days but at Merc he' terrible. Well, he basically doesn't defend.
It's not like the Mercedes boys have had much practise these last few dominant years. Lewis just dances off and wins by 30 seconds. Valteri still has enough pace to beat Verstappen through car superiority alone.

Hopefully we'll see Valterri and Perez duking it out frequently this year while their team mates are 30 seconds further up the road.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Rockie »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:20 am
I’ve just seen some onboards from Vettel in Imola and I must say that I was very impressed by some of his racecraft.

The thing with Vettel is that he makes some absolutely bonehead mistakes, but he also makes some absolutely beautiful overtakes. It’s the complete opposite of Bottas, who rarely makes mistakes, but also rarely makes any beautiful overtakes that actually require courage.

Here’s his move on Alonso:



Here’s his defence on Perez:



And here’s his move on Ocon:

https://streamable.com/qpgjc6

I actually think it’s an interesting debate. Who has better racecraft, Vettel or Bottas? I am curious to find out how members on this forum define racecraft. Is it merely always staying out of trouble, or does it require showing bravery?
This is what I was talking about him schooling Alonso in the race day thread when folks were focusing on his mistake with Ocon.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Chunky »

Wasn't '95 the year when Mansell was brought back to help a failing McClaren but the car was too small for him to fit in? Even after a few raaces off and some redesign it was still uncomfortable and he had a horrid time.

As far as we know, Vettel fits in the car okay, didn't take time off to win the Cart championship at first attempt (despite losing time to a massive shunt and broken back) Plus, Stroll is never going to be a Mika Hakkinen. So no, there's no comparison.

If Vettel finishes the season with more points than one or both Ferrari drivers he should consider it as good as a 5th WDC.

.

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Schermerhorn
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Today we saw how far behind the Aston really is.

This is a result of the team failing to fully understand their copy and paste car. They never developed it so how can they understand it? This is the result of their hubris.

IMO their worst mistake was redesigning the chassis.

The 2019 chassis (Merc copy) was fine. Look at Alpine with their 2019 carried over chassis....

Aston Martin = 2021 Merc engine + 2020 Merc rear suspension + 2019 Merc front end + their own chassis concept = total bodge job.

Lawrence Stroll must be furious.
Last edited by Schermerhorn on Sun May 02, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Exediron »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 5:53 pm
Lawrence Stroll must be furious.
Whereas I'm laughing like the little dog to see such sport. I have no problems at all with a team paying the price for running a car they fundamentally don't understand how to develop.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Juans Girl »

The Mansell/Mclaren debacle was beyond embarrassing, and thankfully for "our Noige" most people have forgotten it.

Vettel is past his prime, pure and simple. His last race win (Singapore 2019) was in a car that had dubious legality. I think he genuinely cracked when he got demolished by Ricciardo at Red Bull.

He is also one of these drivers (not unlike Mansell) that needs his ego stroked and told how good he is. Marko and Horner did a good job of that, as it was obvious he was their golden boy.
Ferrari didn't, and I don't see the same at Aston Martin.
The fact a 4 time WDC and one who is right up their as a statistically all time great is getting schooled by essentially a pay driver doesn't bode well

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by A.J. »

Exediron wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:02 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 5:53 pm
Lawrence Stroll must be furious.
Whereas I'm laughing like the little dog to see such sport. I have no problems at all with a team paying the price for running a car they fundamentally don't understand how to develop.
I am firmly in this camp - I hugely dislike the Wolff/Stroll nexus, and something about this whole setup stinks. Feel sorry for Vettel, but not for the Stroll's for trying to shortcut their way to success.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by A.J. »

Juans Girl wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 1:13 am
The Mansell/Mclaren debacle was beyond embarrassing, and thankfully for "our Noige" most people have forgotten it.

Vettel is past his prime, pure and simple. His last race win (Singapore 2019) was in a car that had dubious legality. I think he genuinely cracked when he got demolished by Ricciardo at Red Bull.

He is also one of these drivers (not unlike Mansell) that needs his ego stroked and told how good he is. Marko and Horner did a good job of that, as it was obvious he was their golden boy.
Ferrari didn't, and I don't see the same at Aston Martin.
The fact a 4 time WDC and one who is right up their as a statistically all time great is getting schooled by essentially a pay driver doesn't bode well
While I'm no fan of Lance Stroll, I have to say he gets a lot of stick for his dad being rich - he isn't exactly a Mazepin now, is he? He's gotten poles and podiums on merit - in fact, he's one of the guys who seems to shine when it is wet (Monza 2018 (?) qualifying, pole in Turkey last year). Yeah he isn't one of the best on the grid, but he certainly isn't anywhere near the worst.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

It looks a bit embarrassing for Vettel at present but it can be turned around. If Aston start understanding and improving this car then that's where Vettel needs to shine.

In two seasons alongside Perez, Stroll started the season better on both occasions. Then when the car improved or the understanding of the car improved, Perez absolutely annihilated Stroll in the second half of the season in both 2019 and 2020. Vettel needs to do that as well to prove it is worth him continuing in Formula One

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Dazza1976 »

To be fair to mansell he must have been about 42 at the time and that car was a dog. Mika was established at the team and obviously one of fastest drivers f1 has seen. I think even a young mansell would have struggled against him.
Vettel deserves half a season I think but the signs aren’t great, he’s had couple of years being battered now. I mean I never rated him in Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton/Senna/Prost class but still surprised how far his stock has fallen.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by F1Tyrant »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:59 pm
It looks a bit embarrassing for Vettel at present but it can be turned around.
It entirely depends if Aston Martin can provide him with the rear grip and stability he craves. Vettel is as sensitive as Raikkonen in that he fundamentally can't/won't change his driving style to suit car characteristics.

Stroll could easily beat Vettel if those particular characteristics can't be set up on the car.
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UnlikeUday
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Some ex F1 driver or journalist said Vettel was hired to make Lance look good.
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Schermerhorn
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:43 am
Some ex F1 driver or journalist said Vettel was hired to make Lance look good.
Then implies Vettel is completely shot, which at the age of 33 I really doubt.

His style is sensitive but I see it changing in his favour slowly already. We'll see where they are in Monaco but I expect Vettel to be comfortably ahead of Stroll there.

The bigger issue though is the team's complete lack of direction and understanding this car, setting it up correctly and making too many blunders.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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