Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

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mikeyg123
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Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Obviously it's too early to truly make a judgement, but I'd argue Vettel is nearly as far off Stroll as Mansell was to Hakkinen and is widely ridiculed for his efforts.

If Vettel is still being outqualified by a notoriously poor qualifier, Stroll, by mid season will he do a Mansell and walk away before finishing the season?

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

The performance gap between Ocon and Alonso was bigger at Imola than between Stroll and Vettel, Ricciardo got thrashed by Norris, Perez was terrible, only Sainz has really done reasonable well consistently thus far even then he can't hold a candle to Leclerc in qualifying.

I would say that there is clearly a pattern of drivers needing to find time in their new teams, it took Ricciardo about 4 races before the Hulk was no longer quicker than him at Renault, I would say that Hamilton's worse season at Mercedes was his first season in 2013, it's too early to make any defining statements.
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KingVoid
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by KingVoid »

I actually thought that his drive in Imola was fine, just very unlucky.

I find it interesting that for a driver who is so prone to losing control of his car, in the most difficult conditions (Germany 2019, Turkey 2020, Imola 2021) he often keeps it on the road. In fact, he might be the only driver who participated in all three of those races and did not make a single mistake in any of them.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by wire2004 »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:53 am
I actually thought that his drive in Imola was fine, just very unlucky.

I find it interesting that for a driver who is so prone to losing control of his car, in the most difficult conditions (Germany 2019, Turkey 2020, Imola 2021) he often keeps it on the road. In fact, he might be the only driver who participated in all three of those races and did not make a single mistake in any of them.
I dont see the logic in that statement unfortunately. Because we can go back the previous year and vettel was the one who crashed in the stadium section. Whereas hamilton. Who had problems in 2 of the 3 you mentioned. Was faultless and survived germany 2018.

No one is perfect. Vettel is clearly not the same man as when he joined ferrari. Let's judge him after 5 races. Because seb has taken most of the problems for Aston martin since his arrival. But similarly. You can not take away lance strolls efforts in the car for the last 2 years. He clearly is not that bad. And dare I say it deserves his place in not only f1. But the aston martin car and throughly deserves any success he gets from aston.
Forget his dad owns the team. He is there on merit.
Your not here to listen to me ramble on about stroll. So back on topic.

Mansell in 95 was a cluster f¥$k all round. The McLaren was too small for mansell. Then this thing. That thing. Mansell clearly wasnt interested when he realised mclaren were the 5/6th best team going into 1995. (Even behind ligier) he clearly wanted the William's seat. Whether it was Mansels wage demands we dont know.

This seb situation is nothing like the mansel situation.

Plus. Didnt seb buy a stake in the team as well.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Looking more like Massa and Villeneuve at Sauber to me...
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:53 am
I actually thought that his drive in Imola was fine, just very unlucky.

I find it interesting that for a driver who is so prone to losing control of his car, in the most difficult conditions (Germany 2019, Turkey 2020, Imola 2021) he often keeps it on the road. In fact, he might be the only driver who participated in all three of those races and did not make a single mistake in any of them.
I guess one thing missing was the lack of pressure.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:30 am
Looking more like Massa and Villeneuve at Sauber to me...
Yeah good spot.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Vettel raced pretty well at Imola and his lap times weren't that bad.

He's still slightly off Stroll but then again he was much further back down the grid too.

I'm guessing the confidence is coming back by each race. Stroll performs well when the pressure is off him and then goes missing once people crank it up. Look at Monza 2020 and what happened after that....AWOL for a few races.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Rotax Max 125 »

He just needs a clean weekend with no reliability trouble so he can get the laps in and the confidence. As someone said earlier after 5 races we should start to have a better idea.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by tootsie323 »

He fits into the car.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Siao7 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:46 pm
He fits into the car.
8)

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by tim3003 »

Rotax Max 125 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:34 pm
He just needs a clean weekend with no reliability trouble so he can get the laps in and the confidence.
I'm not sure a 4 times World Champion should be lacking in confidence, new team or not. If he is, it's because he knows he's not the driver he once was. I think Vettel's a has-been. His performances have become embarassing. Yes Stroll is good enough for F1; but a multiple Champion? I doubt it. Coulthard called him delusional (correctly in my view) after he rear-ended Ocon in Bahrain, because he is refusing to accept the evidence of his decline and blaming everyone but himself for his errors. I wish Seb would retire while he still has some respect among fans, and I suspect he will at the end of this year.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Exediron »

tim3003 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:53 pm
I wish Seb would retire while he still has some respect among fans, and I suspect he will at the end of this year.
That would have been the end of 2019. He's too late now.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Exediron »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
I was expecting him to dominate Stroll to the point where he didn't need things to go his way to look better. But it's still early days, and we'll see if he can get to that point.

I agree that he hasn't been as awful as a lot of people are making him sound.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by -K- »

He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If a 4 time WDC is driving awfully, it will sell more Aston Martins?

We'll see Perez' true level now he is paired against Verstappen and when the walls close in because of the Grade 1 Team pressure; we'll see if he sinks or swims.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If a 4 time WDC is driving awfully, it will sell more Aston Martins?

We'll see Perez' true level now he is paired against Verstappen and when the walls close in because of the Grade 1 Team pressure; we'll see if he sinks or swims.
If Perez is relevant then surely how well he performed at Racing Point is the relevant bit? Not "when the walls close in because of grade 1 team pressure".

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
Out qualifying Stroll would be a start, the driver that's been out qualified by every teammate that he's had.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
How was it a drying track when Bottas set his best time in Q1 just less than 3 tenths shy of pole position, we seem to be creating excuses.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by schumilegend »

Did Mansell at Mclaren look like an organic gardener trying to drive a F1 car??

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
How was it a drying track when Bottas set his best time in Q1 just less than 3 tenths shy of pole position, we seem to be creating excuses.
It wasn't a drying track in quali.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:44 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
How was it a drying track when Bottas set his best time in Q1 just less than 3 tenths shy of pole position, we seem to be creating excuses.
It wasn't a drying track in quali.
I know and as I was saying there seems a desperate need to defend Vettel when things start to be made up.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:05 pm
Did Mansell at Mclaren look like an organic gardener trying to drive a F1 car??
More like a butcher trying to do the stunt.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Still early days, but on the evidence of last 18mths, Vettel looks a shadow of the driver he was.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Schermerhorn »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
How was it a drying track when Bottas set his best time in Q1 just less than 3 tenths shy of pole position, we seem to be creating excuses.

Sorry, my mistake. The track was quicker towards the end of Q2 though, no?

I didnt actually watch it, I was at my uncle's funeral at the time and just caught some highlights.

If Stroll genuinely beats Vettel over the season without any extenuating circumstances (like Bahrain and Imola) then I will be the first to say that Vettel is now a grade A bum driver who should leave immediately.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by j man »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Exediron »

j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but that's all stuff F1 fans will know. To the general public, what he's done is:

- Returned Aston Martin to F1
- Signed a 4-time WDC as a statement of intent
- (insert any notable results here)

The rest of that will mostly blow on right past. Much like how Pirelli still feel they're getting value from F1, even though they're almost universally maligned by the actual viewers of the sport. The prestige of being associated outweighs their actual performance.
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
People don't know about that stuff. Companies like Aston Martin gain prestige by association with F1. Even if those who actually follow the sport are turned off by them. And it's clear Stroll wants in on the prestige. The new Aston Martin safety car shows how much he wants to maximise that.

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Harpo »

j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I don't think most people with enough money to buy an Aston Martin care about F1, let alone the "inner details" of the Aston Martin F1 team and their F1 results.
I am not sure either than a F1 die-hard fan with enough money to buy an Aston Martin would care.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

mikeyg123
Posts: 19033
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Harpo wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am
j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I don't think most people with enough money to buy an Aston Martin care about F1, let alone the "inner details" of the Aston Martin F1 team and their F1 results.
I am not sure either than a F1 die-hard fan with enough money to buy an Aston Martin would care.
It's essentially about increasing brand value by association with F1. Look at Ferrari for example. The brand value far exceeds the actual output.

Siao7
Posts: 9315
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Siao7 »

j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I am being forgetful I guess, but what rules did they break? I can't remember

mikeyg123
Posts: 19033
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:30 am
j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
-K- wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:37 am
He didn’t do anything wrong on Sunday that I saw. With others spinning off, Vettel kept it on the road despite having a reputation for that. Did he get any points along with his stop/go penalty? After 5 in one weekend in a 23 race season he really needs a clean season now.

It’s a shame Vettel got a stop/go for something that wasn’t his fault, while Perez only gets the standard 10 seconds for overtaking under a safety car, a rule he should have known about and not disregarded in trying to correct his own error. Perez also seemed to remove his own steering wheel during the penalty (surely gaining an advantage in terms of the mechanics being able to switch it immediately upon the expiration of the 10 seconds.)

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the penalties looked at after that, if the stewards had no discretion in the penalties they had to apply.

Vettel does need to start outqualifying Stroll, but Stroll does seem to have improved in that regard over the last year. Seeing a 4x WDC driving around with the 2nd driver yellow camera bar is sad, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.
I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I am being forgetful I guess, but what rules did they break? I can't remember
They were punished for copying the Merc brake duct and deducted points at the beginning of last year.

There was also the case of covering up Lance's Coronavirus at the Nurbergring but they seem to have gotten away with that with little press. I've heard a few journalists chunter about that.

Siao7
Posts: 9315
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:46 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:30 am
j man wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:53 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am


I doubt Vettel is the designated 2nd driver as Aston Martin

I doubt Lawrence Stroll paid all that money to hire a 4xWDC to make his own (unreliable) son look good. People would see through the charade immediately.
Erm... It would be completely in character. He's spent an awful lot more money making Lance look good than Vettel's pay packet.

Having Vettel onboard is really a no brainer. He's weaker than Perez but has a higher reputation and he'll maybe sell more Aston's.
If Lawrence Stroll's aim is truly to sell more Astons, then I feel he's going about it quite poorly. So far the characteristics that seem to define his race team are:
- Nepotism
- Ditching loyal, high performing employees
- Achieving success by copying competitors
- Breaking the rules (i.e. cheating)

Not to mention the current hissy fit about the rules being unfair and trying to get them changed. The public image he is building for that team is really not a positive one and, particularly with his son on board, it feels more like a vanity project than anything else. From my perspective, in a few short years he has turned the most likeable team on the grid into the most objectionable.
I am being forgetful I guess, but what rules did they break? I can't remember
They were punished for copying the Merc brake duct and deducted points at the beginning of last year.

There was also the case of covering up Lance's Coronavirus at the Nurbergring but they seem to have gotten away with that with little press. I've heard a few journalists chunter about that.
Ah, of course, forgot about that. I guess that's good for them if people forget it!

Harpo
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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by Harpo »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:03 am
Harpo wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am

I don't think most people with enough money to buy an Aston Martin care about F1, let alone the "inner details" of the Aston Martin F1 team and their F1 results.
I am not sure either than a F1 die-hard fan with enough money to buy an Aston Martin would care.
It's essentially about increasing brand value by association with F1. Look at Ferrari for example. The brand value far exceeds the actual output.
Of course it is... So being in F1 is enough. And getting a World Champion in one car just adds to it. That the said champion is useless in the car doesn't matter as long as he is useful outside of it.
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: Is Vettel at Aston Martin starting to look like Mansell at Mclaren in 95?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:28 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:33 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:22 am
I dont understand. What did he do wrong at Imola?

The race circumstances were out of his hands.

Brake fire

Pit lane start

Penalty

DNF at the end

Plus numerous team blunders such as the team not sending him out on a drying track so he could improve his laptime during Q2.

Were people expecting nothing short of a victory from him at Imola?
He could start by out qualifying his teammate. Stroll is infamously bad in quali.
Bahrain - double yellows and a penalty

Imola - team failed to send him out on a drying (faster) track. So he missed the cut in Q2. They had all the data and made a blunder.

Look at their fastest laps....1/10th of a second in it despite Vettel being way further back than Stroll

People are making a mountain of a molehill so far.
How was it a drying track when Bottas set his best time in Q1 just less than 3 tenths shy of pole position, we seem to be creating excuses.

Sorry, my mistake. The track was quicker towards the end of Q2 though, no?

I didnt actually watch it, I was at my uncle's funeral at the time and just caught some highlights.

If Stroll genuinely beats Vettel over the season without any extenuating circumstances (like Bahrain and Imola) then I will be the first to say that Vettel is now a grade A bum driver who should leave immediately.
You didn't watch it but thought it was a drying track but you know it was quicker towards the end of Q2, not sure about that, all being said I might check out the lap times.

From what I can see he manged to get in all 4 soft tyres runs, 2 in Q1 and 2 In Q2, if Vettel chose to go out early for his last run in Q2 then that's on him.
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