Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

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JN23
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Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

We've had this thread in the past and someone mentioned it after Bahrain, so thought I'd start it as a place to discuss the relative performance of what are currently the leading two cars. Maybe we can add another car to it at some point!

Initial impressions are that Red Bull have had the advantage on both Saturday's so far but pace in the races have been fairly even*.

*however, Red Bull seemingly had an issue with Verstappen's car in the Bahrain race and the rainy conditions will have had an impact in Imola.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

In qualifying, Red Bull has been the car to have so far.

On race day, it was very equal in Bahrain. Imola is a bit hard to read.

According to Horner, it was impossible for Max to go for fastest lap at the end because Hamilton’s laptime was out of reach. Wolff also said that he believed that they had the fastest race pace today.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

I agree it was hard to read today, I’d call it even. Was also surprised to hear Wolff be so open about Merc having the fastest car today. Not normally his/Merc’s style.

Didn’t see/hear what Horner say, but I wonder how much of Hamilton’s fastest lap advantage (about 0.7/8) was to do with the DRS/slipstream from the Norris pass.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Red Bull were clearly the fastest car in Bahrain, but their issues put them within rreach of the Mercedes on race day.

This weekend, in dry conditions, the Red Bull were fastest - but in today's conditions the Mercedes was faster. Hamilton was catching Verstappen prior to his incident, and even if Hamilton was slightly faster than Max in the wet, he's not that much faster, plus he had a damaged wing at that point. So it is clear that in today's conditions the Mercedes was faster - but it was cold and wet, which swings away from Red Bull and to Mercedes. I think if it had been dry the Red Bulls would have controlled it.

But these are probably the closest front runners since 2006.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Tufty »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:19 pm
Didn’t see/hear what Horner say, but I wonder how much of Hamilton’s fastest lap advantage (about 0.7/8) was to do with the DRS/slipstream from the Norris pass.
Exactly the reason Horner gave.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Redbull was the fastest car in Bahrain, Verstappen was losing 3 tenths a lap due to a problem. Today Hamilton had slipstream and DRS for fastest lap. I though Hamilton was catching Max due to traffic more than anything, didnt really see how Max was dealing with the traffic but he lost a hell alot of time, he had alot more to lose being in the lead.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

In the mixed conditions in Imola, I think Merc were as fast or faster than RB once they got their tyres into the window, and faster at the end of stints. RB were much faster at the beginning of stints to the tune of several seconds over a few laps.

It's simply very evenly matched overall between the two teams.

Red Bull probably have the overall edge because they've got the best car in qualifying right now. In the races I can't really call it.

Bottas and Perez were infinitely unimpressive in the race today (Imola) but Verstappen and Hamilton were speed demons. I think Bottas and Perez will both be utterly crushed this season.

Merc-Ham and RBR-Max seem more or less equally formidable. They bring the best out of their cars and I wonder what our impression of their cars would be if Bottas and Perez (with only his 2 races of experience thus far with the team) were their best and leading drivers. Neither were going to be close to winning the race today, it feels like.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Badgeronimous »

I cannot help but feel that Red Bull have to make hay when the sun is shining. The rake change has shook up the Merc, but they WILL get on top of it, they always do.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:30 pm
Redbull was the fastest car in Bahrain, Verstappen was losing 3 tenths a lap due to a problem. Today Hamilton had slipstream and DRS for fastest lap. I though Hamilton was catching Max due to traffic more than anything, didnt really see how Max was dealing with the traffic but he lost a hell alot of time, he had alot more to lose being in the lead.
There were a number of laps where Hamilton was closing in on Verstappen without traffic. The conditions did appear to favour the Mercedes for race pace in that respect.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

I actually believe that the current weather conditions are favouring Mercedes.

In Bahrain, Marko said that Red Bull’s loss of performance advantage relative to Mercedes from Saturday to Sunday was partially because of the colder weather on Sunday.

Imola was only 10-14 degrees temperature.

Once we get into the summer where we have 30 degrees air temperature and 40 degrees track temperature, I think Red Bull will be stronger then.

Then again, I don’t trust RBR unreliability.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:49 am
I actually believe that the current weather conditions are favouring Mercedes.

In Bahrain, Marko said that Red Bull’s loss of performance advantage relative to Mercedes from Saturday to Sunday was partially because of the colder weather on Sunday.

Imola was only 10-14 degrees temperature.

Once we get into the summer where we have 30 degrees air temperature and 40 degrees track temperature, I think Red Bull will be stronger then.

Then again, I don’t trust RBR unreliability.
BIB - Was thinking about this last night. Mercedes need to sort that part of their performance out or hope there’s a cooler summer. Unless Bahrain was just a big outlier.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:03 am
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:30 pm
Redbull was the fastest car in Bahrain, Verstappen was losing 3 tenths a lap due to a problem. Today Hamilton had slipstream and DRS for fastest lap. I though Hamilton was catching Max due to traffic more than anything, didnt really see how Max was dealing with the traffic but he lost a hell alot of time, he had alot more to lose being in the lead.
There were a number of laps where Hamilton was closing in on Verstappen without traffic. The conditions did appear to favour the Mercedes for race pace in that respect.
Hamilton gained 3.3 seconds on one lap due to traffic so it does seem to be traffic. Not really enough data to say which car was faster.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

I think RBR was fastest in Bahrain, and the Mercedes was fastest in Imola (during the race). Wolff himself said so, which is very unlike him (not that I trust anything coming out of most TP's mouths).

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

I'd say so far it's 1-1. Red Bull in Bahrain and Mercedes in Imola.

When Toto is even saying the Merc is the fastest car you know it must be true.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

Ultimately, when I think about which car should have won the race in Imola, I conclude it's RBR because they could and maybe should have locked out the front row, which should have been enough to confirm the win, given that their race pace was worst case scenario marginally worse than Merc's and given the circuit characteristics.

Also on race pace, I can see why Toto has his impression because I'm pretty sure Mercedes were faster for more laps than the Red Bull. Unsure that actually equates to a better aggregate pace because it's undone by the disproportionate amount of time lost at the beginning of stints where the disadvantage was huge as compared to after such phases where the Merc edge was slight.

So if I had to plump for an overall score I see it as: Merc 0 - 2 RBR.

However, given what transpired in the race, I actually think if Lewis had just stayed calm while passing backmarkers, that he'd have had at least 50-50 chances to take Verstappen in the closing stages. And even getting overtaken by Verstappen on the opening lap, without damage he might have managed the overcut, given it was costing him 0.2s per lap and the ease with which Hamilton was able to close in at the end of the inters stint.

It would have been a tougher pass than what he had to muster against the Ferraris or Lando, but it would have been interesting to see how Verstappen would have handled such pressure lap after lap. One slip up leaving Hamilton within 0.7s would have probably led to him taking the lead. And perhaps Verstappen could have returned the favour, and would have mugged Hamilton in the case of a successful overcut. The differential in performance in different phases of stints would have given both the opportunity to make decisive passes. The changes made at Imola made it realistic to achieve the pass, even though overtaking is tough at the circuit.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by DOLOMITE »

Really isn't much in it is there, but what is great is that when they are this close you really start to see the difference the great drivers make and how they handle the pressure.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:11 am
Really isn't much in it is there, but what is great is that when they are this close you really start to see the difference the great drivers make and how they handle the pressure.
Max definitely handled it better than Lewis at Imola. That's two races of chaos he's won in the last 3 seasons (Germany 2019).

Just an absolutely epic opening 2 races of the season. Can't ask for much more.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by DOLOMITE »

Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:17 am
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:11 am
Really isn't much in it is there, but what is great is that when they are this close you really start to see the difference the great drivers make and how they handle the pressure.
Max definitely handled it better than Lewis at Imola. That's two races of chaos he's won in the last 3 seasons (Germany 2019).

Just an absolutely epic opening 2 races of the season. Can't ask for much more.
I'd agree with that, and that start certainly helped .Hamiltins mental re-set during the red-flag was impressive though, to come back after that and have the composure to get up to 2nd was impressive to watch and "vintage" Hamilton.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

It's interesting! Many people - including me - lauded Hamilton's patience and maturity at Turkey last year whilst pointing the finger at Verstappen's impatience. Imola 2021 was pretty much a role reversal.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

Interesting from AMuS. looks at the different strengths of each car. Toto Wolff also believes the gap to Red Bull is still two to three tenths. Of course, Horner disagrees.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

tootsie323 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:13 pm
It's interesting! Many people - including me - lauded Hamilton's patience and maturity at Turkey last year whilst pointing the finger at Verstappen's impatience. Imola 2021 was pretty much a role reversal.
Not really comparable. Verstappen lead in Imola from start to finish with Hamilton being with 3 seconds for only 1 single lap of the race. Hamilton came through the field in Turkey.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

Verstappen's weakness does seem to be SC restarts. It has become the normal during the Vettel Red Bull and Hamilton Mercedes era that the leader will not be attacked. But it now genuinely seems like Verstappen could lose the lead. He did similar in Brazil 2019

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.
How can you know in wet conditions how much is the car and how much is the driver, ask Bottas if the Mercedes was the faster car, nevertheless I gave it to Mercedes.

Like I said there are 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, Red Bull seems to have 2 to 3 tenths of ultimate pace on Mercedes like what we see in qualifying and has put forward by Wolff. However in the race it seems that Mercedes have better tyre wear which brings them back into contention as put forward by Horner.

Yes I'm fully aware of narratives and you may sit on the otherside, I guess no surprise, I went through all this in 2017 and 2018 having to read how Vettel was making the difference, that kind of aged well, it's all kind of part of the game I guess.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.
How can you know in wet conditions how much is the car and how much is the driver, ask Bottas if the Mercedes was the faster car, nevertheless I gave it to Mercedes.

Like I said there are 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, Red Bull seems to have 2 to 3 tenths of ultimate pace on Mercedes like what we see in qualifying and has put forward by Wolff. However in the race it seems that Mercedes have better tyre wear which brings them back into contention as put forward by Horner.

Yes I'm fully aware of narratives and you may sit on the otherside, I guess no surprise, I went through all this in 2017 and 2018 having to read how Vettel was making the difference, that kind of aged well, it's all kind of part of the game I guess.
Iirc, the main narrative of 2017 revolved around the W08's qualifying edge, and how that gave Merc vital track position-even if/when the SF70H had the race pace to match, or better, the W08.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

SR1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:33 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.
How can you know in wet conditions how much is the car and how much is the driver, ask Bottas if the Mercedes was the faster car, nevertheless I gave it to Mercedes.

Like I said there are 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, Red Bull seems to have 2 to 3 tenths of ultimate pace on Mercedes like what we see in qualifying and has put forward by Wolff. However in the race it seems that Mercedes have better tyre wear which brings them back into contention as put forward by Horner.

Yes I'm fully aware of narratives and you may sit on the otherside, I guess no surprise, I went through all this in 2017 and 2018 having to read how Vettel was making the difference, that kind of aged well, it's all kind of part of the game I guess.
Iirc, the main narrative of 2017 revolved around the W08's qualifying edge, and how that gave Merc vital track position-even if/when the SF70H had the race pace to match, or better, the W08.
Exactly and that narrative by magic got totally turned around the year after when the roles got reversed, been there and got the teeshirt. :)
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:37 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:33 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.
How can you know in wet conditions how much is the car and how much is the driver, ask Bottas if the Mercedes was the faster car, nevertheless I gave it to Mercedes.

Like I said there are 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, Red Bull seems to have 2 to 3 tenths of ultimate pace on Mercedes like what we see in qualifying and has put forward by Wolff. However in the race it seems that Mercedes have better tyre wear which brings them back into contention as put forward by Horner.

Yes I'm fully aware of narratives and you may sit on the otherside, I guess no surprise, I went through all this in 2017 and 2018 having to read how Vettel was making the difference, that kind of aged well, it's all kind of part of the game I guess.
Iirc, the main narrative of 2017 revolved around the W08's qualifying edge, and how that gave Merc vital track position-even if/when the SF70H had the race pace to match, or better, the W08.
Exactly and that narrative by magic got totally turned around the year after when the roles got reversed, been there and got the teeshirt. :)
Narratives aside, the situation is similar to what we currently have - one car (RB) having a distinct edge in qualifying, but race pace close, varying from track to track. Still early days though. We need to see more to get a better picture.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
It could be 2-2 or it could be 4-0.

Unlike many others I don't think it's remotely obvious that Mercedes were faster in the race in Imola on aggregate. Actually, the whole dynamics of the strengths and weaknesses of the two cars makes it very difficult to come to any concrete conclusion.






This is obvious.







But better than my 2-0 or your 3-1 score, or more representative, is probably thinking of it in terms of splitting 100 points between the two teams, where it's probably something like 53:47 or even closer between the two cars. As such, it's so close that nobody can actually really be 'expected' to have the upper hand or make good on very slender advantages.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

So in this thread we can also discuss the direct comparison between Hamilton and Verstappen.


So far on my amateur free-spirited nanotech spreadsheets where I use my eyes and limited reason to deduce performance, I have Verstappen a bit ahead of Hamilton after 2 races on performance. They are scored on both qualifying and race performances.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
It could be 2-2 or it could be 4-0.

Unlike many others I don't think it's remotely obvious that Mercedes were faster in the race in Imola on aggregate. Actually, the whole dynamics of the strengths and weaknesses of the two cars makes it very difficult to come to any concrete conclusion.






This is obvious.







But better than my 2-0 or your 3-1 score, or more representative, is probably thinking of it in terms of splitting 100 points between the two teams, where it's probably something like 53:47 or even closer between the two cars. As such, it's so close that nobody can actually really be 'expected' to have the upper hand or make good on very slender advantages.
No and I actually think I'm being generous in Imola given Hamilton's wet weather prowess, in a situation were Red Bull have the better qualifying car and in the race it's 50/50 at best for Mercedes, for me it seems obvious which car has the upper hand.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:58 am
So in this thread we can also discuss the direct comparison between Hamilton and Verstappen.


So far on my amateur free-spirited nanotech spreadsheets where I use my eyes and limited reason to deduce performance, I have Verstappen a bit ahead of Hamilton after 2 races on performance. They are scored on both qualifying and race performances.
Based on the cars being equal or because of Hamilton's trip into the gravel?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:07 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:58 am
So in this thread we can also discuss the direct comparison between Hamilton and Verstappen.


So far on my amateur free-spirited nanotech spreadsheets where I use my eyes and limited reason to deduce performance, I have Verstappen a bit ahead of Hamilton after 2 races on performance. They are scored on both qualifying and race performances.
Based on the cars being equal or because of Hamilton's trip into the gravel?
Because Verstappen was closer to Hamilton's performance in Bahrain than Hamilton was to Verstappen's in Imola, though I still gave Hamilton a good score for Imola despite his mistake because he also displayed super driving. So yeah the trip to the gravel swings it to Max for now.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

I'd say on reflection that the Red Bull-Verstappen and Mercedes-Hamilton packages are very evenly matched with a whiff of an edge towards the former. However, it's difficult to decide if the edge is between driver skill or engineering performance. The relative performances of Perez and Bottas make this quite challenging.

It's clear both drivers are operating at a very high level with Hamilton blinking first with his unpunished error at Tosa. I personally think that both drivers are too good and too consistent for their errors to have a meaningful impact on the title. It's going to come down to reliability and we already know the Red Bull-Honda package is fallible.

I have no doubt that Mercedes can keep up (if not develop an edge) through the whole season. Mercedes have had two seasons of stopping development at the summer break which made Red Bull look quicker at the tail end of last year.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Invade wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:07 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:58 am
So in this thread we can also discuss the direct comparison between Hamilton and Verstappen.


So far on my amateur free-spirited nanotech spreadsheets where I use my eyes and limited reason to deduce performance, I have Verstappen a bit ahead of Hamilton after 2 races on performance. They are scored on both qualifying and race performances.
Based on the cars being equal or because of Hamilton's trip into the gravel?
Because Verstappen was closer to Hamilton's performance in Bahrain than Hamilton was to Verstappen's in Imola, though I still gave Hamilton a good score for Imola despite his mistake because he also displayed super driving. So yeah the trip to the gravel swings it to Max for now.
Yeah an obvious driving error.
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Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Redbull have had the fastest car in both qualifying sessions. Redbull/Max should have won in Bahrain but we found out Max was losing 3 tenths a lap plus whatever the difference was in Hamilton was making in track limits, that would have put Max out of undercut range and most likely the win. In Imola cant really say due to the circumstances.

Could come down to reliability and who has the best number 2.
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A.J.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:37 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:33 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:38 pm
I think there is 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, it has to be underlined how important qualifying is.

In Bahrain Red Bull were faster in qualifying and the race, in Imola Red Bull were faster in qualifying but Mercedes faster in the race, I suspect given the conditions that might have been down more to Hamilton but nevertheless I thus have:-

Red Bull 3 - 1 Mercedes.
Points are only given out at the race though - and the Merc was marginally slower in Bahrain (if at all), and definitely faster in Imola. Seems to me like you're attempting to create a narrative that the RBR is much faster (3-1, really?) and Hamilton is making the difference - which is bs, frankly.
How can you know in wet conditions how much is the car and how much is the driver, ask Bottas if the Mercedes was the faster car, nevertheless I gave it to Mercedes.

Like I said there are 2 components to this qualifying and the race itself, Red Bull seems to have 2 to 3 tenths of ultimate pace on Mercedes like what we see in qualifying and has put forward by Wolff. However in the race it seems that Mercedes have better tyre wear which brings them back into contention as put forward by Horner.

Yes I'm fully aware of narratives and you may sit on the otherside, I guess no surprise, I went through all this in 2017 and 2018 having to read how Vettel was making the difference, that kind of aged well, it's all kind of part of the game I guess.
Iirc, the main narrative of 2017 revolved around the W08's qualifying edge, and how that gave Merc vital track position-even if/when the SF70H had the race pace to match, or better, the W08.
Exactly and that narrative by magic got totally turned around the year after when the roles got reversed, been there and got the teeshirt. :)
You seriously have a massive persecution problem - I have never done a Vettel/Hamilton comparison with you or anyone else on here, and I have no qualms in saying that Hamilton is a superior driver to Vettel. I also have no qualms in saying Hamilton would have won the 2018 title in either car, and the 2017 title was always going to whoever was the Merc driver on account of the (lack of) Ferrari reliability and strategy "masterstrokes". This narrative you keep pushing about everyone being against Hamilton all the time is frankly a little tiresome.

Give it a rest and enjoy the sunshine sometimes.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Mod Aqua »

This is a Mercedes vs Red Bull thread, not a who said what thread.

KingVoid
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

I think that this is quite useful information when predicting how the cars will fare for the remainder of the 2021 season:


Image
source: https://f1bythenumbers.com/2019-f1-seas ... o-pirelli/


Now, the reason why I think this is quite useful is because it gives us some good clues about the circuit characteristics of each track.

Honda appear to match Mercedes on qualifying mode, but Mercedes still have the best engine on race day by a tiny margin. This likely means that Mercedes will have the edge over Red Bull on most power circuits.

Now what defines a power circuit? It might surprise some people, but the modern layout of Imola is actually a proper power circuit. Bottas' 2020 pole lap clocked an average speed of 240.08 km/h, which would put it fourth on the list only behind Monza, Silverstone and Red Bull Ring.

Portimao is a significantly slower circuit than Imola. Hamilton's 2020 pole lap clocked an average speed of only 212.71 km/h. I was surprised when I learned just how much of a power circuit the modern iteration of Imola really is. I guess that's what happens when you remove one chicane.

As for tyre wear, I think that the more abrasive track surfaces will favour Red Bull, while the less abrasive circuits will favour Mercedes.

A.J.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 am
As for tyre wear, I think that the more abrasive track surfaces will favour Red Bull, while the less abrasive circuits will favour Mercedes.
Interesting - I know RBR was probably the faster car in Bahrain, but shouldn't this be the other way around? If the Merc is kinder on its tyres, they can go longer on the more abrasive track surfaces - and on the less abrasive ones the RBR has an advantage with tyre warm up and generally keeping them in their optimum window (something Bottas has apparently struggled with in Imola, even with the slicks in both quali and race).

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