Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am
Four races so far, and the Merc had the faster car in 3 of them, with Bahrain being too close to call. The RBR might be quick on qualy (still think the Merc has the edge, not just looking at the relative pace of Perez/Bottas), in the race the Mercs are definitely quicker (and that's where points are handed out.

After Barcelona, it is 3.5 - 0.5 in favour of the Mercs - and with the reliability issues of the Hondas, it is a matter of time before Max has a penalty or two coming his way. Even if they win Monaco (and they really have to), it is increasingly looking like this is going to be another Merc whitewash of the championships.
Red Bull clearly started the season with the fastest car but according to you they've never had the fastest car, it feels like a corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has even started.
It has been "clear" to you, but not to me. It is beyond ironic to see you of all people complaining of bias - clearly there are no mirrors where you're at.

As I have stated earlier in the thread - points are awarded in the race, so that's where the superiority matters. As we saw yesterday, even if RBR leads they can't pull out a gap, and the Merc has enough pace in reserve to win either outright or through strategy. In the interest of clarity, I will post my thoughts race-by-race:

Bahrain - Roughly equal - I honestly can't say one car was better than the other.
Imola - Merc was faster
Portugal - Merc much faster
Spain - Merc faster again

That's 3.5:0.5 in favour of the Mercs so far.
Max dominated pre season, took pole by 0.4 and was only beaten on strategy due to having a car issue costing him 0.3 per lap. It is clear the Red Bull started the season quicker.

Not sure how you include the Mercedes was much faster in Portugal unless you always begin with the viewpoint Mercedes are quicker and it must be proven otherwise.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:59 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am
Four races so far, and the Merc had the faster car in 3 of them, with Bahrain being too close to call. The RBR might be quick on qualy (still think the Merc has the edge, not just looking at the relative pace of Perez/Bottas), in the race the Mercs are definitely quicker (and that's where points are handed out.

After Barcelona, it is 3.5 - 0.5 in favour of the Mercs - and with the reliability issues of the Hondas, it is a matter of time before Max has a penalty or two coming his way. Even if they win Monaco (and they really have to), it is increasingly looking like this is going to be another Merc whitewash of the championships.
Red Bull clearly started the season with the fastest car but according to you they've never had the fastest car, it feels like a corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has even started.
It has been "clear" to you, but not to me. It is beyond ironic to see you of all people complaining of bias - clearly there are no mirrors where you're at.

As I have stated earlier in the thread - points are awarded in the race, so that's where the superiority matters. As we saw yesterday, even if RBR leads they can't pull out a gap, and the Merc has enough pace in reserve to win either outright or through strategy. In the interest of clarity, I will post my thoughts race-by-race:

Bahrain - Roughly equal - I honestly can't say one car was better than the other.
Imola - Merc was faster
Portugal - Merc much faster
Spain - Merc faster again

That's 3.5:0.5 in favour of the Mercs so far.
Max dominated pre season, took pole by 0.4 and was only beaten on strategy due to having a car issue costing him 0.3 per lap. It is clear the Red Bull started the season quicker.

Not sure how you include the Mercedes was much faster in Portugal unless you always begin with the viewpoint Mercedes are quicker and it must be proven otherwise.
Pre-season means squat, unless you have forgotten Ferrari topping the timesheets multiple times in the previous seasons only for reality to painfully dawn come Australia?

I have plainly stated how I include Mercedes being faster in Portugal - if you don't agree that's up to you, but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 pm
...but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.
There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 pm
...but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.
There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
...but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Which race were you watching? Bottas was clearly reeling in Russell during the second stint so I'm not sure you can have a huge amount of confidence in that assertion. By the end, Bottas was on trash tyres and Russell was on fresh rubber (twice).
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:57 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
...but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Which race were you watching? Bottas was clearly reeling in Russell during the second stint so I'm not sure you can have a huge amount of confidence in that assertion. By the end, Bottas was on trash tyres and Russell was on fresh rubber (twice).
Are you really arguing that Bottas was on the same level as Russell in Bahrain last year? Because the race I saw had Russell take the lead, open up a Hamilton-esque gap over Bottas, and if not the pit stop mess-up would have easily won the race (not to forget the almost insulting overtake).

A near rookie comes in and thrashes Hamilton's teammate in a one-off race, and we still have Hamilton apologists making excuses for Perez's pace arguing he isn't settled in.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Redbull had the quicker car in quali for the first two races and could have won both races. Spain was the only race which I thought Mercedes had a better race car on both sets of tyres. RB heat up there tyres quicker but Mercedes have better tyre wear.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am
Four races so far, and the Merc had the faster car in 3 of them, with Bahrain being too close to call. The RBR might be quick on qualy (still think the Merc has the edge, not just looking at the relative pace of Perez/Bottas), in the race the Mercs are definitely quicker (and that's where points are handed out.

After Barcelona, it is 3.5 - 0.5 in favour of the Mercs - and with the reliability issues of the Hondas, it is a matter of time before Max has a penalty or two coming his way. Even if they win Monaco (and they really have to), it is increasingly looking like this is going to be another Merc whitewash of the championships.
Red Bull clearly started the season with the fastest car but according to you they've never had the fastest car, it feels like a corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has even started.
It has been "clear" to you, but not to me. It is beyond ironic to see you of all people complaining of bias - clearly there are no mirrors where you're at.

As I have stated earlier in the thread - points are awarded in the race, so that's where the superiority matters. As we saw yesterday, even if RBR leads they can't pull out a gap, and the Merc has enough pace in reserve to win either outright or through strategy. In the interest of clarity, I will post my thoughts race-by-race:

Bahrain - Roughly equal - I honestly can't say one car was better than the other.
Imola - Merc was faster
Portugal - Merc much faster
Spain - Merc faster again

That's 3.5:0.5 in favour of the Mercs so far.
You say points are awarded in the race, so that's were the superiority matters, but a race were Red Bull wins you also say the Merc was faster, I also will cut you off at the pass if you mention a driver error, I would say that Max has made driver errors both in qualifying and the race that have cost him.

Looking at Bahrain how anyone can not say that Red Bull was not faster is beyond me, dominant in qualifying, in the race Hamilton having basically to abuse T4 track limits to keep within undercut range with over heating rear tyres and pitted early on lap 13 to get the undercut, After Max caught Hamilton on the second stint Hamilton then immediately pits again to maintain track position giving him a long last stint, 2 stints in the first 28 laps, one stint for the last 28 laps. Max pits 11 laps later and comes flying after Hamilton and catches him with 8 laps to go, Hamilton looks like a sitting duck but then Max makes 2 driving errors, first he couldn't pass him without going off the track and has to give the place back, second comes a few corners later when he has a massive slide which over heats his rear tyres and loses him performance. If Max wins the race then we say the Red Bull was faster, In Imola we say the Merc was faster despite running no higher than second but we can say if not for a driving error it might have won because it was faster therefore it was faster.

In a situation were Hamilton leads 3-1 in race wins and like you say it solely matters were the driver finishes you somehow manage to come up with 3.5-0.5, like I said before it feels like Red Bull can never be seen to be faster.

If you reply I will read it but then leave it at that.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 pm
...but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.
There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Not sure how anyone can say Mercedes was faster in Imola? Is that because Hamilton passed alot of slower cars after the restart?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:43 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am
Four races so far, and the Merc had the faster car in 3 of them, with Bahrain being too close to call. The RBR might be quick on qualy (still think the Merc has the edge, not just looking at the relative pace of Perez/Bottas), in the race the Mercs are definitely quicker (and that's where points are handed out.

After Barcelona, it is 3.5 - 0.5 in favour of the Mercs - and with the reliability issues of the Hondas, it is a matter of time before Max has a penalty or two coming his way. Even if they win Monaco (and they really have to), it is increasingly looking like this is going to be another Merc whitewash of the championships.
Red Bull clearly started the season with the fastest car but according to you they've never had the fastest car, it feels like a corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has even started.
It has been "clear" to you, but not to me. It is beyond ironic to see you of all people complaining of bias - clearly there are no mirrors where you're at.

As I have stated earlier in the thread - points are awarded in the race, so that's where the superiority matters. As we saw yesterday, even if RBR leads they can't pull out a gap, and the Merc has enough pace in reserve to win either outright or through strategy. In the interest of clarity, I will post my thoughts race-by-race:

Bahrain - Roughly equal - I honestly can't say one car was better than the other.
Imola - Merc was faster
Portugal - Merc much faster
Spain - Merc faster again

That's 3.5:0.5 in favour of the Mercs so far.
You say points are awarded in the race, so that's were the superiority matters, but a race were Red Bull wins you also say the Merc was faster, I also will cut you off at the pass if you mention a driver error, I would say that Max has made driver errors both in qualifying and the race that have cost him.

Looking at Bahrain how anyone can not say that Red Bull was not faster is beyond me, dominant in qualifying, in the race Hamilton having basically to abuse T4 track limits to keep within undercut range with over heating rear tyres and pitted early on lap 13 to get the undercut, After Max caught Hamilton on the second stint Hamilton then immediately pits again to maintain track position giving him a long last stint, 2 stints in the first 28 laps, one stint for the last 28 laps. Max pits 11 laps later and comes flying after Hamilton and catches him with 8 laps to go, Hamilton looks like a sitting duck but then Max makes 2 driving errors, first he couldn't pass him without going off the track and has to give the place back, second comes a few corners later when he has a massive slide which over heats his rear tyres and loses him performance. If Max wins the race then we say the Red Bull was faster, In Imola we say the Merc was faster despite running no higher than second but we can say if not for a driving error it might have won because it was faster therefore it was faster.

In a situation were Hamilton leads 3-1 in race wins and like you say it solely matters were the driver finishes you somehow manage to come up with 3.5-0.5, like I said before it feels like Red Bull can never be seen to be faster.

If you reply I will read it but then leave it at that.
That's simply not true though, is it? I haven't said the BiB, so I don't know why you're attributing this to me and arguing against it.

You bring up Bahrain qualifying, despite me explicitly stating that I don't attach much importance to it and that race pace is what counts as that's where the points are. Looking at the Bahrain race it isn't obvious that the RBR is a faster car overall - they might have a slight edge, but not enough for me to decisively call it in their favour. Max having one shot at passing Hamilton doesn't scream better car to me - look at yesterday, where Hamilton could have overtaken Max in the first (on the lap Max pitted) or the second stint (or the third one indeed, when he did make the pass) - that's a superior car.

This is why I split Bahrain as on race pace both cars are pretty much equal - Hamilton made the difference that day, and Max couldn't take the one opportunity he got. Every other race the Merc has been faster, sometimes comfortably so.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 pm
...but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.
There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Banana Man wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:02 pm
Cannot help but feel that the Mercedes is slowly going to prove the car to be in.
I believe they basically have been other than Bahrain, and even that was a close run thing. On a dry Imola, Lewis was hauling Max in before his off and today it was only Max’s start that made the race remotely interesting.

Red Bull COULD have pitted Max just before Merc did but in reality I think Lewis would have stretched out a big enough gap and Max wouldn’t have the straight line speed to pass Bottas.
Hamilton was catching Max in Imola because Max was in traffic on a track with just a dry line. Hamilton took a chance to gain time through the traffic and we see what happened. Once Max was in clear air he actully improved on Hamiltons time.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:15 pm
...but unless you think Bottas and Verstappen are a similar calibre of drivers it is fairly obvious Mercedes was easily the quicker car.
There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm

There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm


He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
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F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm


He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
We get it, Max is the greatest and with Hamilton it's all about the car.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:40 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm

Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm

Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
We get it, Max is the greatest and with Hamilton it's all about the car.
Your words, not mine - not that I disagree with it entirely ;)

Max is not the greatest, but with Hamilton it is a lot about the car :nod:

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:38 pm

There is another explanation. Bottas does, on occasion, match Hamilton's race pace. He did so at Bahrain and it's not impossible he had a good setup for Portugal. Rosberg's level definitely rose from driving alongside (and learning from) Hamilton.

I do think Bottas gets underrated and I hope he gets a chance at Alpine or Aston Martin.
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
Bottas certainly wasnt schooled, the data proves it.
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F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:48 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm


Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
We get it, Max is the greatest and with Hamilton it's all about the car.
Your words, not mine - not that I disagree with it entirely ;)

Max is not the greatest, but with Hamilton it is a lot about the car :nod:
We got your point of view many posts ago ;)
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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm


He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
Russell did not school Bottas and quite easily then beat him on race pace, why do we have to make things up?
Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
Bottas certainly wasnt schooled, the data proves it.
:thumbup:

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

The gap was 1.5 seconds after 1 lap (natural field spread) and at 44 laps (when Russell pitted) the gap was 3.1 seconds. He put 1.6 seconds on him over 43 laps.

Funny how some people try every extreme to exaggerate, 8 seconds. That's literally the greatest the gap ever got to and within 10 laps that was down to 5.1 seconds.

So you are happy to ignore all circumstances and choose 1 single lap that gives no picture of the situation. Do you genuinely think you are unbiased?


Lets use your logic on the Spain race and see if you hold the same opinion.. the scenario was identical. On lap 29 in Spain, both Hamilton and Verstappen had made one stop. Verstappen lead by 5.6 seconds. Was the Red Bull clearly quicker?

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:48 pm
Max is not the greatest, but with Hamilton it is a lot about the car :nod:
Is Hamilton even in your top 10 F1 drivers ever? I've got him at #5 after Fangio, Schumacher, Clark and Stewart. I'm keen to assess just how much you don't rate him.
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SR1
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:48 pm
SR1 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:08 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:05 am
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:24 am
Four races so far, and the Merc had the faster car in 3 of them, with Bahrain being too close to call. The RBR might be quick on qualy (still think the Merc has the edge, not just looking at the relative pace of Perez/Bottas), in the race the Mercs are definitely quicker (and that's where points are handed out.

After Barcelona, it is 3.5 - 0.5 in favour of the Mercs - and with the reliability issues of the Hondas, it is a matter of time before Max has a penalty or two coming his way. Even if they win Monaco (and they really have to), it is increasingly looking like this is going to be another Merc whitewash of the championships.
Red Bull clearly started the season with the fastest car but according to you they've never had the fastest car, it feels like a corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has even started.
It has been "clear" to you, but not to me. It is beyond ironic to see you of all people complaining of bias - clearly there are no mirrors where you're at.

As I have stated earlier in the thread - points are awarded in the race, so that's where the superiority matters. As we saw yesterday, even if RBR leads they can't pull out a gap, and the Merc has enough pace in reserve to win either outright or through strategy. In the interest of clarity, I will post my thoughts race-by-race:

Bahrain - Roughly equal - I honestly can't say one car was better than the other.
Imola - Merc was faster
Portugal - Merc much faster
Spain - Merc faster again

That's 3.5:0.5 in favour of the Mercs so far.
I'm struggling with Portugal-qualifying was a mess, while Horner saying RB was the faster car on the mediums (which was used for half of the race).
Given how close Bottas was to Verstappen (being comfortably faster in clear air), and given the gulf between Hamilton and Verstappen, it is clear Portugal was Merc's race. I am not even considering where Perez ended up - just looking at the Verstappen/Bottas comparison is enough.
If you're referring to when Bottas was leading the race (and later fell to P2), iirc, Hamilton (and then Verstappen) was in constant DRS range of Bottas- lap after lap, which must mean they were much faster than Bottas. Why would Bottas put himself within risky DRS range if he had the pace to get out of it?
I don't think Bottas' race pace was near as good as Hamilton and Verstappen's -rather he was holding up both drivers for large parts of the first stint.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Mercedes have closed their performance deficit to Red Bull as quickly as Hamilton closed his 6 second deficit to Verstappen after the first pit stop.

Having said that, I think that the cooler temperatures on Sunday made the Mercedes advantage stronger than it would have been if they were warmer, as cooler temperatures hinder Red Bull, and also would have made it more difficult for Hamilton to sit behind Verstappen and push him into taking life out of his tyres, as well as put in the rapid final stint laps.

Max's radio messages, and general demeanor in the post race interviews, make it sound like he's already mentally conceded the championship, and that's probably the biggest evidence that Mercedes now have the fastest car.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Exediron »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:17 am
Max's radio messages, and general demeanor in the post race interviews, make it sound like he's already mentally conceded the championship, and that's probably the biggest evidence that Mercedes now have the fastest car.
I don't agree at all. Max conceded that they didn't have the car to beat Merc in Barcelona, but I don't get the impression at all that he's conceded the championship. Development is king in F1; how many times have we seen a car that was quickest at round four get overhauled by season's end?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:22 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:48 pm
Max is not the greatest, but with Hamilton it is a lot about the car :nod:
Is Hamilton even in your top 10 F1 drivers ever? I've got him at #5 after Fangio, Schumacher, Clark and Stewart. I'm keen to assess just how much you don't rate him.
Oh, I don't want to derail this conversation, but I am curious about Stewart being higher than say Senna/Prost/even Alonso.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:20 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:17 am
Max's radio messages, and general demeanor in the post race interviews, make it sound like he's already mentally conceded the championship, and that's probably the biggest evidence that Mercedes now have the fastest car.
I don't agree at all. Max conceded that they didn't have the car to beat Merc in Barcelona, but I don't get the impression at all that he's conceded the championship. Development is king in F1; how many times have we seen a car that was quickest at round four get overhauled by season's end?
Yeah, it is possibly too early to call, especially if RB will be better in warmer temperatures. Maybe Max is thinking "great, even with an equal car, I still have the Hamilton factor to deal with, FML", this kind of thing. But I never got the impression that Max gives a sh*t about these things

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:22 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:48 pm
Max is not the greatest, but with Hamilton it is a lot about the car :nod:
Is Hamilton even in your top 10 F1 drivers ever? I've got him at #5 after Fangio, Schumacher, Clark and Stewart. I'm keen to assess just how much you don't rate him.
He actually is in my top 10 - and if he had to consistently fight for some titles against someone other than Bottas he might even make it to the top 5 (right now it's a toss up between him/Prost/Stewart for that position).

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:49 pm
The gap was 1.5 seconds after 1 lap (natural field spread) and at 44 laps (when Russell pitted) the gap was 3.1 seconds. He put 1.6 seconds on him over 43 laps.

Funny how some people try every extreme to exaggerate, 8 seconds. That's literally the greatest the gap ever got to and within 10 laps that was down to 5.1 seconds.

So you are happy to ignore all circumstances and choose 1 single lap that gives no picture of the situation. Do you genuinely think you are unbiased?


Lets use your logic on the Spain race and see if you hold the same opinion.. the scenario was identical. On lap 29 in Spain, both Hamilton and Verstappen had made one stop. Verstappen lead by 5.6 seconds. Was the Red Bull clearly quicker?
I didn't realize you were replying to me - but sure, let's use your example. Are you telling me Bottas was going to cut down the gap and overhaul Russell?

Secondly, do you forget what happened after the pitstops? Russell came out behind Bottas - and then absolutely mugged him and made him look like a fool with the way he overtook him. So Russell had an 8 second gap, which Bottas may have cut down to 5 - but once the race was neutralized and Russell had to make an extra stop, he overtook Bottas on track and put 9.5 seconds between them (with other cars between them that Bottas could also not overtake).

But yes, exactly the same predictable set of people arguing it was anything other than a thrashing for Bottas.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

No, I'm not telling you anything. I am just showing you that if Russell built an 8 second lead in Bahrain then Verstappen built a 5.6 second lead in Spain. Same rules for same situations.

You did not answer my question, was Verstappen quicker to build such a comfortable lead?

Do you not think it would be more honest to say, Russell built a 3 second lead and Verstappen was unable to build more than 1.5 second lead. You know, actually using the part of the race were both were on the same strategy?

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:40 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:27 pm


Your comment makes no sense, sorry. What's that now?
Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.
He was getting beat because he was running behind but the data doesn't show Russell was schooling him, the data shows that Bottas would have been close behind Russell at the end of the race, I'm not saying Bottas would have won the race, the speed advantage on fresher tyres wasn't overly great to be that confident but nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.

I'm trying to be very open about it I can appreciate it that for 90%+ posting they have a real interest in the subject matter, to that extent although not entirely convinced I gave the Imola race to Mercedes even though in wet conditions how can we know what percentage is car or driver, Hamilton is excellent in such conditions, Bottas was rubbish but I guess that just gets explained by him being rubbish.

Meanwhile we will look to use Perez at all times to determine the performance of the Red Bull even though obviously he's still getting up to speed although some good performances now and again may convince otherwise, so when Perez is basically rubbish then that's the speed of the Red Bull, when Bottas is rubbish that's the speed of Bottas.

I think were you're falling down is starting off by saying that Red Bull was not the fastest car in Bahrain against I think common belief, you're setting off on the belief that Max is the faster driver, when Max wins it's because of Max, when Hamilton wins it's because of the car it actually shuts down any debate because you're already looking to decide the outcome, like I said the corrupt boxing judge who has his scorecard filled in before the fight has started, anyone watch the Canelo/Saunders fight, was he really winning by 4 rounds after 8 rounds, when there's a will for someone to come out on top then he more likely will.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:53 am
Johnson wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:49 pm
The gap was 1.5 seconds after 1 lap (natural field spread) and at 44 laps (when Russell pitted) the gap was 3.1 seconds. He put 1.6 seconds on him over 43 laps.

Funny how some people try every extreme to exaggerate, 8 seconds. That's literally the greatest the gap ever got to and within 10 laps that was down to 5.1 seconds.

So you are happy to ignore all circumstances and choose 1 single lap that gives no picture of the situation. Do you genuinely think you are unbiased?


Lets use your logic on the Spain race and see if you hold the same opinion.. the scenario was identical. On lap 29 in Spain, both Hamilton and Verstappen had made one stop. Verstappen lead by 5.6 seconds. Was the Red Bull clearly quicker?
I didn't realize you were replying to me - but sure, let's use your example. Are you telling me Bottas was going to cut down the gap and overhaul Russell?

Secondly, do you forget what happened after the pitstops? Russell came out behind Bottas - and then absolutely mugged him and made him look like a fool with the way he overtook him. So Russell had an 8 second gap, which Bottas may have cut down to 5 - but once the race was neutralized and Russell had to make an extra stop, he overtook Bottas on track and put 9.5 seconds between them (with other cars between them that Bottas could also not overtake).

But yes, exactly the same predictable set of people arguing it was anything other than a thrashing for Bottas.
Because of the Mercedes pit lane fiasco Bottas was put on old tyres while Russell was on new tyres or at least much newer tyres, why don't you know these things when looking to make valid argument?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
No, I'm not telling you anything. I am just showing you that if Russell built an 8 second lead in Bahrain then Verstappen built a 5.6 second lead in Spain. Same rules for same situations.

You did not answer my question, was Verstappen quicker to build such a comfortable lead?

Do you not think it would be more honest to say, Russell built a 3 second lead and Verstappen was unable to build more than 1.5 second lead. You know, actually using the part of the race were both were on the same strategy?
OK, that's fair - I'll go with the fact that Russell built a 3 second lead and was comfortably going to win the race.

This is after being an emergency replacement for the race - in a new team with ill-fitting shoes, he manages to achieve that. Against a driver who has been racing in that car for the 15 previous rounds (and has been driving for the team for 4 years) - in my book it is absolutely schooling the incumbent. You can argue about the gaps all you want, but nobody can see this was anything other than Russell putting Bottas in his place. Now imagine how Russell would have performed if he had 15 races in the car and shoes that actually fit.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:27 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:40 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:20 pm

Maybe my wording was not good you said that Russell schooled Bottas in performance I said you was wrong, there is opinion then there are facts.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... i%20Bottas

In the first stint Bottas said that if he got too close to Russell he was losing downforce going into turn 1, Russell was faster in 24 of 44 laps, Bottas was slightly compromised by running behind, if Russell had so much extra performance why wasn't he able his gap Bottas going into his first pitstop, he had no extra pace on Bottas, the gap was 3 seconds lap 30 and still was 3 seconds the lap Russell pitted on lap 44, it was a gap Bottas was comfortable with and not damage his tyres too much so he could create a tyre offset against Russell.

Bottas had a 4 lap tyre offset and on lap 50 was 8.5s behind on lap 61 he was 5.2s, we can see on clear laps he could go 0.3s quicker, the SC gets called, Mercedes mess up and the race between the two of them was over. There was still 26 laps to go with Bottas needing to be 0.2s quicker than Russell to finish right behind. There was nothing definite about the outcome of the race and certainly no proof of schooling by Russell.
What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.
... nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.
Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:27 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:40 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:31 pm


What exactly are you trying to show here? They could have been faster than the other on an equal number of laps - fact remains though that Russell overtook Bottas at the start, then built an 8 second gap over him. After the pit drama, he pulled off one of those FU overtakes (at a place where I have not seen anybody ever getting overtaken) - if being beaten was bad, that overtake was humiliation.

And this was Russell's first race in the Merc, with ill-fitting shoes - imagine if he had an entire season to get used to the car and continue humiliating the incumbent. If you are saying Russell wouldn't be even quicker and thrash Bottas, then I don't want to ever hear you give the excuse that Perez isn't settled into the 2nd Red Bull. The pace gap between Verstappen and Perez tells you just how much more Max is pushing the car - if his car was actually equal to the Merc he would easily be leading the championship (even with an inferior car he should have been, had Hamilton not gotten lucky as always after his colossal f-up in Imola - Vettel in Germany 2018 was an example of what usually happens when one makes a catastrophic error in the wet).
You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.
... nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.
Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:27 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:40 pm

You're not being honest here Russell had a 3 second lead that went out to 8 seconds with the help of fresh tyres, you're not then allowing Bottas to respond with his tyre delta, the race was basically called off 26 laps early. The rest of your post has nothing to do with what we were discussing, a weakened position perhaps?
So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.
... nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.
Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
And this is where your bias stops you from viewing things objectively - how about replacing this with "Bottas couldn't live with Russell who managed his pace once he opened up a 3 second gap"? No matter how you view it, for the incumbent to be dispatched off the way Bottas was by a near-rookie (wearing ill-fitting shoes) is a thrashing.

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:27 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:46 pm


So Bottas was clearly beaten by your own admission - unless you're suggesting that he would be coming back hard at Russell and closing the gap and maybe even making a move on him? He has NEVER shown the capability to put in a drive like that, but hey, let's believe this as long as it doesn't shatter your fantasy, eh?

Thread topic is Mercedes vs Red Bull - Perez drives a Red Bull, and his gap relative to Verstappen is very relevant to this thread. You seem to have no argument against it, except speculative suggestions. If Russell could beat the incumbent driver easily in ill-fitting shoes in his first race for a new team, there really is no excuse to be given for how much more Verstappen is extracting out of the Red Bull. Despite is being clearly slower than the Mercedes in 3 out of 4 races thus far.
... nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.
Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
And this is where your bias stops you from viewing things objectively - how about replacing this with "Bottas couldn't live with Russell who managed his pace once he opened up a 3 second gap"? No matter how you view it, for the incumbent to be dispatched off the way Bottas was by a near-rookie (wearing ill-fitting shoes) is a thrashing.
So Russell could have gone quicker but chose not to even at the point he was close to pitting for fresh tyres, seriously?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:27 am

... nothing suggests that Russell was actually quicker to use the term schooled.
Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
And this is where your bias stops you from viewing things objectively - how about replacing this with "Bottas couldn't live with Russell who managed his pace once he opened up a 3 second gap"? No matter how you view it, for the incumbent to be dispatched off the way Bottas was by a near-rookie (wearing ill-fitting shoes) is a thrashing.
So Russell could have gone quicker but chose not to even at the point he was close to pitting for fresh tyres, seriously?
This is not a Russell vs Bottas thread, so I suggest you create one if you're looking for a discussion on that matter. Russell schooled the incumbent driver in the Merc, which tells us that Bottas' race pace is hardly the measure to judge the pace of the Merc vs the Red Bull.

Perez is renowned for his race pace, yet I don't see many making the argument we ought to be looking at his pace to make the Merc-RBR comparison. So far this year the Merc has been the quicker car, and decisively so.

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