Page 10 of 11
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:04 am
by Good_Year
Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:23 pm
Johnson wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:17 pm
Mercedes seem to have a mighty race car, I think they will leave Imola happy about the rest of the season. Leaving Bahrain there was question marks over the race pace and if Red Bull had a diff issue losing them pace. The Mercedes seemed quicker today, all baring Hamiltons tentative opening 1.5 laps.
Hamilton set a fastest lap 0.8 quicker than Verstappen. Was that with DRS?
Was Verstappen pushing at this part of the race?
Yes both recorded on lap 60.
https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg official f1 site.
The DRS skewers that massively.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
by Exediron
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 am
by tootsie323
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
Ricciardo admitted that it would take him a few races to get fully to speed with a new car. Couple that with Norris continuing to improve and, to me, that explains what we have witnessed so far.
I feared that Sainz would be demolished by Leclerc and, after both Bahrain and the first part of Imola, that looked to be the case. But, after his error-strewn start, he made the most of the restart and hung in there. Give him a few ore races with that car and he should, hopefully, keep Leclerc honest.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:46 am
by JN23
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
I think that’s likely too. But is it possible we’ve ovverrated Leclerc and Ricciardo instead (or as well)?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:03 am
by Exediron
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
Ricciardo admitted that it would take him a few races to get fully to speed with a new car. Couple that with Norris continuing to improve and, to me, that explains what we have witnessed so far.
I feared that Sainz would be demolished by Leclerc and, after both Bahrain and the first part of Imola, that looked to be the case. But, after his error-strewn start, he made the most of the restart and hung in there. Give him a few ore races with that car and he should, hopefully, keep Leclerc honest.
I'm not sure why the common opinion seems to be that Bahrain was terrible for Sainz. He finished the race only 8 seconds behind Charles. By contrast, Ricciardo -- also in his first race for his new team -- was 20 seconds behind his less-rated teammate.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:41 am
by tootsie323
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:03 am
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:24 am
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
Ricciardo admitted that it would take him a few races to get fully to speed with a new car. Couple that with Norris continuing to improve and, to me, that explains what we have witnessed so far.
I feared that Sainz would be demolished by Leclerc and, after both Bahrain and the first part of Imola, that looked to be the case. But, after his error-strewn start, he made the most of the restart and hung in there. Give him a few ore races with that car and he should, hopefully, keep Leclerc honest.
I'm not sure why the common opinion seems to be that Bahrain was terrible for Sainz. He finished the race only 8 seconds behind Charles. By contrast, Ricciardo -- also in his first race for his new team -- was 20 seconds behind his less-rated teammate.
Was it just 8 seconds? So much for my recall! I'll revise my opinion from that. I gave Ricciardo a bit of wiggle for Bahrain as it was reported that he had floor damage.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:13 am
by Option or Prime
Given the number of trips off road yesterday I sort of think the whole car concept looks like a relearning curve for drivers. Both Hamilton and surprisingly given the better grip, Verstappen had big incidents with the consequences dependant on circumstances. Sainz and Ricciardo don't become rubbish overnight and I'd include Vettell in that as well.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:06 am
by yodasarmpit
Not Russell’s best weekend, he overreacted and touched the grass. It does, however, beg the question of Bottas yet again - why was he back fighting a Williams and not up front against the Red Bulls.
All in all another good race, Max surprising me with his maturity - I really didn’t think he’d step up once the cars were equal, but so far he has.
Lando is driving great, and brilliant to see McLaren back up there fighting for podiums.
Ferrari have upped their game, although it’s not looking like Leclerc is the future world champ I’d though a couple of years ago.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:29 am
by Good_Year
yodasarmpit wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:06 am
Not Russell’s best weekend, he overreacted and touched the grass. It does, however, beg the question of Bottas yet again - why was he back fighting a Williams and not up front against the Red Bulls.
All in all another good race, Max surprising me with his maturity - I really didn’t think he’d step up once the cars were equal, but so far he has.
Lando is driving great, and brilliant to see McLaren back up there fighting for podiums.
Ferrari have upped their game, although it’s not looking like Leclerc is the future world champ I’d though a couple of years ago.
Looks like Ferrari has a decent aero package but just lacking the Grunt on Mclaren.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
by JN23
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long. I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
by tootsie323
JN23 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long.
I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm
by pokerman
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:48 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:37 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:28 pm
For info, the first season I have a decent memory of is 1986.
Then why can't you remember these things, people use to complain about how boring F1 was because of the lack of overtaking and often would compare it to Indycars which was seen as being far better in that respect.
Max Mosley's response was to compare football with basketball, saying something along the lines that you may only see 1 goal but that would have much impact then watching a 100 baskets being scored.
I do remember those things. A near-total lack of passing is boring, but I don't really get more entertainment from cars cruising past because they have DRS enabled.
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
I guess the Monaco race is never boring, during the Schumacher/Alonso years all the excitement evolved around the pit stops, invariable the only time possible to get in front of a rival, in the modern era I'm not sure how long F1 survives with none overtaking cars.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:11 pm
by Mort Canard
Exediron wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:56 am
I don't know how anyone else feels, but early days or not, Norris and Sainz are both looking stronger than expected against their teammates. I think the likelihood that we've been underrating both halves of that partnership is increasing.
Carlos has been underrated for a long time. ...and until this year, Carlos was the only team mate Lando has had in F1.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
by pokerman
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:48 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:37 pm
Then why can't you remember these things, people use to complain about how boring F1 was because of the lack of overtaking and often would compare it to Indycars which was seen as being far better in that respect.
Max Mosley's response was to compare football with basketball, saying something along the lines that you may only see 1 goal but that would have much impact then watching a 100 baskets being scored.
I do remember those things. A near-total lack of passing is boring, but I don't really get more entertainment from cars cruising past because they have DRS enabled.
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 pm
by tootsie323
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:48 pm
I do remember those things. A near-total lack of passing is boring, but I don't really get more entertainment from cars cruising past because they have DRS enabled.
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
I think that the Macca had better straight line speed than the Ferrari. I also think that Norris was clever in that he seemed to open a gap to Hamilton ahead of the final two corners - enough to give him DRS 'space.'
The inevitable largely came about because his ability to continue doing this was compromised by his tyre wear on those softs. Gave himself a reasonable margin to the medium-shod Leclerc though.
Broadly speaking (and excuse me for stating the obvious!), DRS is intended as a patch to overcome the aero-wake symptoms that make it difficult for a faster car to follow a slower car through corners. Artificial as it may seem, it is part of racing and, dependent on strategy, drivers will frequently choose not to defend too hard and compromise their overall race.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:27 pm
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long.
I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
No if you are fully off the track then you can be passed under the SC, if Max then retakes the position before the restart he then gets penalised same as what happened to Perez.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:35 pm
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:20 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
I think that the Macca had better straight line speed than the Ferrari. I also think that Norris was clever in that he seemed to open a gap to Hamilton ahead of the final two corners - enough to give him DRS 'space.'
The inevitable largely came about because his ability to continue doing this was compromised by his tyre wear on those softs. Gave himself a reasonable margin to the medium-shod Leclerc though.
Broadly speaking (and excuse me for stating the obvious!), DRS is intended as a patch to overcome the aero-wake symptoms that make it difficult for a faster car to follow a slower car through corners. Artificial as it may seem, it is part of racing and, dependent on strategy, drivers will frequently choose not to defend too hard and compromise their overall race.
My understanding is that Ferrari's straight line speed disadvantage was partly because they went with a wet weather set up, I imagine a bigger rear wing, Leclerc's moaning I would say is typical of a driver wanting his cake and eating it, I'm sure he was more than happy with his car in the first phase of the race which had him in a comfortable 3rd place.
In respect to Norris given his speed disadvantage, given his tyres were not in good condition, given that it took Hamilton a fair few laps to pass him, I have to wonder what people want, you're only able to pass the car in front if the driver makes a mistake?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm
by tootsie323
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:27 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long.
I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
No if you are fully off the track then you can be passed under the SC, if Max then retakes the position before the restart he then gets penalised same as what happened to Perez.
Generally yes - but didn't the Race Director state that, as this was a restart after a stoppage (red flag), a car that lost its position would be allowed to regain it?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:52 pm
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:27 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long.
I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
No if you are fully off the track then you can be passed under the SC, if Max then retakes the position before the restart he then gets penalised same as what happened to Perez.
Generally yes - but didn't the Race Director state that, as this was a restart after a stoppage (red flag), a car that lost its position would be allowed to regain it?
I don't know, was Perez penalised for the first SC infringement or the second?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:56 pm
by pokerman
Johnson wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:17 pm
Mercedes seem to have a mighty race car, I think they will leave Imola happy about the rest of the season. Leaving Bahrain there was question marks over the race pace and if Red Bull had a diff issue losing them pace. The Mercedes seemed quicker today, all baring Hamiltons tentative opening 1.5 laps.
Hamilton set a fastest lap 0.8 quicker than Verstappen. Was that with DRS?
I'd hold your horses on that apparently the damage to Bottas' car means that Mercedes might not be able to afford to upgrade the car, so much for open competition when top teams are reduced to what we might have considered in the past to be bottom feeders.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
by tootsie323
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:52 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:27 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
JN23 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 am
I was wondering what would have happened that Chuck or Lando or others gone past Verstappen when he part-spun on the formation lap after the red flag.
https://racingnews365.com/norris-i-woul ... at-restart
Same Kimi basically - Verstappen would have had until safety car one line to retake the position, which considering it was at the last corner, wouldn’t have been that long.
I assume if he hadn’t have done that, he’d have had to go into the pits or get a 30 second penalty.
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
No if you are fully off the track then you can be passed under the SC, if Max then retakes the position before the restart he then gets penalised same as what happened to Perez.
Generally yes - but didn't the Race Director state that, as this was a restart after a stoppage (red flag), a car that lost its position would be allowed to regain it?
I don't know, was Perez penalised for the first SC infringement or the second?
Yup - Perez was penalised for infringing under the first SC which was, technically, still under race conditions. For Verstappen,
"FIA Race Director Michael Masi explained that the Dutch driver would have been permitted to resume his position anyway as it was being treated as a formation lap.."
Hope that helps.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:19 pm
by pokerman
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:52 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:27 pm
tootsie323 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:04 pm
That would apply if it were a grid restart. As a rolling restart, he'd either regain his position before the SC line or go fro whatever position he'd be in.
No if you are fully off the track then you can be passed under the SC, if Max then retakes the position before the restart he then gets penalised same as what happened to Perez.
Generally yes - but didn't the Race Director state that, as this was a restart after a stoppage (red flag), a car that lost its position would be allowed to regain it?
I don't know, was Perez penalised for the first SC infringement or the second?
Yup - Perez was penalised for infringing under the first SC which was, technically, still under race conditions. For Verstappen,
"FIA Race Director Michael Masi explained that the Dutch driver would have been permitted to resume his position anyway as it was being treated as a formation lap.."
Hope that helps.
Fair enough so Norris didn't know the rules afterall.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:22 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUfmNT-IA2U
Kimi reaction amusing as is often the case!
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:07 pm
by Asphalt_World
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:48 pm
I do remember those things. A near-total lack of passing is boring, but I don't really get more entertainment from cars cruising past because they have DRS enabled.
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
You read this forum regularly so should know that my desire to remove DRS comes hand in hand with other regulation changes to allow some passing.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:13 pm
by pokerman
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:07 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
You read this forum regularly so should know that my desire to remove DRS comes hand in hand with other regulation changes to allow some passing.
I actually have a bad memory but I will try and take note this time.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:23 pm
by WHoff78
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:07 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:12 pm
Asphalt_World wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:16 pm
Fiki wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm
pokerman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:54 pm
I would venture today that without DRS in the dry there would have been no overtaking, it comes across as it being a crime for a much faster car to be able to benefit from it, it seemed much more of a problem for cars with less of a performance delta.
I don't recall either Alonso's or Schumacher's victories at this track (2005 and 2006), both able to keep a faster car behind for a large chunk of the race, being criticized as boring. DRS takes the defence away from a driver at every track, depending on how well its use is judged by the FIA pre-race.
The defence point is excellent. Drivers don't even bother to defend when a car is close and then has DRS. They just know it's pointless.
You didn't see Norris defending, how many laps did it take Hamilton to pass him in a much faster far, we perhaps want that to take half the race, and what of cars with a much less performance delta, close to zero overtaking?
You read this forum regularly so should know that my desire to remove DRS comes hand in hand with other regulation changes to allow some passing.
There is definitely a balance to be had as well, and for me, overtaking needs to be realistic at the majority of tracks but certainly not all. If they can get the cars to a point where they can overtake at 75/80% (or there abouts) of circuits then I think that should be the goal. If overtaking is still really, really hard at some circuits (Monaco is pretty much a given, but there could be others) then I think that is probably not a bad position to be in. I do wonder if sometimes the tendency is to try and make DRS present similar opportunities at all tracks which is where it starts to become more artificial I think and raises more question marks. At the end of the day overtaking should be more difficult at some tracks that others. I haven’t always felt this way, and most would know that I am very much a Hamilton fan, but it is probably a good thing if circuits like this are still a little harder to pass. It’s a learning curve though and the right answer is probably somewhere between the DRS zones in 2020 and 2021. But then again this years regs may have made following a little easier which may have pushed it that way at this circuit, with the DRS adjustments on top.
On the whole, I thought it was ok though this year though. Cars could still defend as some drivers showed, and some moves took several laps to inch closer and complete, so I still think it made for some good racing.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:19 pm
by UnlikeUday
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:45 pm
by Siao7
Thanks, good watch
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:59 pm
by Asphalt_World
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:40 am
by UnlikeUday
What a big contrast to last year....
Source - Imgur
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:18 pm
by Covalent
UnlikeUday wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:40 am
What a big contrast to last year....
Source - Imgur
Conspiracy time: Mercedes have done some research and come to the conclusion that it's in their best interest to not dominate the sport, and are sandbagging. Increased viewership numbers, increase TV time for the team, more popularity especially the driver(s) if it seems like they won on talent alone instead of just driving a rocket ship. Not to mention the rules that are meant to hamper them.
Source(s): Dude, trust me.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:19 pm
by pokerman
Interesting watch, Hamilton was the car Tsunoda was trying to pass into the chicane on the second SC restart, while everyone was driving through sensibly on the dry line, Tsunoda thought yeah I can make that pass work by going offline onto the wet, no you can't.
Verstappen on Hamilton I thought maybe he had a touch of understeer but no he knew what he was doing as he applied more throttle as he ensured that he forced Hamilton off the track.
Alonso dodging the debris while driving slowly still managed to spin in the corner by going onto the wet, highlighting how treacherous it was to go off the dry line.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:20 pm
by pokerman
UnlikeUday wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:40 am
What a big contrast to last year....
Source - Imgur
Neither Red Bull finished the first race.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident. It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
by mikeyg123
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident. It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity.
I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?
As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race?
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:00 pm
by pokerman
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident. It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity.
I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?
As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race?
Yeah that was kind of funny poor old FE, I jest of course but if you don't behave yourself you will end up in one of these.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:47 pm
by UnlikeUday
What upgrades some of the team brought to Imola. Quite interesting it should be in the development war especially around the brake ducts, bargeboards etc.
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2021/ ... Imola.html
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident.
It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity.
I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?
As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race?
I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.
With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.
And my word count is well under 6 times what you state
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:03 pm
by mikeyg123
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident.
It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity.
I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?
As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race?
I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.
With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.
And my word count is well under 6 times what you state
What would you penalising Russell for exactly? I thought he was going to need to take to the grass and did so to try and avoid Bottas. As it turned out he didn't need to but it hardly seems punishable. Feels like a racing incident where both men were unfortunate.
And lots of people ae overreacting. I've seen some really nasty stuff being said about Russell across social media since Sunday.
Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread
Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm
by TheGiantHogweed
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:03 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm
2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.
They are both in the same place and going for the same move.
First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.
I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s
So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.
Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.
I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident.
It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.
The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.
I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.
Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.
Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!
So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity.
I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?
As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race?
I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.
With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.
And my word count is well under 6 times what you state
What would you penalising Russell for exactly? I thought he was going to need to take to the grass and did so to try and avoid Bottas. As it turned out he didn't need to but it hardly seems punishable. Feels like a racing incident where both men were unfortunate.
And lots of people ae overreacting. I've seen some really nasty stuff being said about Russell across social media since Sunday.
If Hamilton happened to over react too much - which he in fact had more of a reason to as Norris clearly defended, Hamilton will have touched the grass too and likely had a similar outcome. Would you have judged that as a racing incident or blamed Hamilton? IMO, wet or dry is sort of irrelevant as it is still the same track. If you think the conditions do matter, then Russell took to bigger risk, which explains the reasons why I think he should have been penalised.
I wasn't thinking this until today when I'd seen replays of other drivers manage to pull off the same move without making the mistake Russell did. I'm pretty sure there were several earlier on when it was wet too.
