2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

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mikeyg123
Posts: 19031
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:03 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 pm


2:25 and 8:47 make an interesting comparison.

They are both in the same place and going for the same move.

First one is Hamilton on Norris and the other is Russell on Bottas. I didn't get to see then side by side but I pointed out at the time that Norris looked to do more of a defence than Bottas. But it was pointed out that Bottas didn't really even do a defence, and more actually made room before Russell lost control.

I don't think the conditions should force drivers to have to allow more space in the wet as Russell initially implied. Bottas did actually follow the dry line as sky's analysis showed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJErp79VxFs&t=169s

So I would say Russell was the one who attempted something dangerous as he seemed to miss that Bottas most likely would follow the natural line which the slight left kink naturally would force drivers wide if they were to take the ideal line to the next corner. Russell had plenty of room but I would say after seeing all this that the risk he took was just too big - and it came at a cost and took both drivers out the race. Taking this into consideration, I would have thought something like a penalty point or two and a 3 place grid drop would be the more typical approach to this sort of thing somehow.

Norris forced Hamilton with an obvious defence so Hamilton had to go right sooner. Yes it was dryer, but Hamilton attempted it at a safe time and it was successful and he cause no chaos.


I know Bottas shouldn't have been racing a williams but that still has nothing to do with this incident and the outcome. The other thing I've got to add is that I would say I'm actually surprised there was nothing looking at Russell's actions after this incident. It is clear that many on this forum think others are over reacting to Russell's actions, but I'd say they were in a sense worse than what Verstappen did to Ocon in Brazil 2019.

The reason why I think this is because russell right after a big crash that he had far less of an impact than Bottas and then he then gets out and I initially thought he was going to see if Bottas was OK, but then he just goes to show his frustration. While it was next to nothing impact wise, it was still very unreasonable as Bottas hadn't moved much at all even over 30 seconds after Russell got out his car so he won't have known what state Bottas was in.

I can compare this to situations like Alonso and Giovinazzi in Australia 2015 and Alonso and Kimi Austria the same year. The driver that is taken out with no blame at all realises that things may not be good so they don't take their anger out and manage the situation pretty well. I was surprised just how well Giovinazzi acted when he'd been crashed into from the back so hard. He really wanted to see if Alonso was fine.

Even Kvyat after the admittedly poor move from Grosjean, Kvyat was initially angry, but then everyone including was concerned. Won't go any further into that though.

Even though lots of drivers have awful reactions in the heat of the moment, I still think it is unacceptable to go to a driver that has sat in their car for a long period of time after a heavy crash and go and hit or intend to do anything like it. Checking if they are ok is surely the first thing that they should they should do if they make the effort to go to the other car. If not, they should go off the run-off area totally - which makes even more sense as cars can still go off - which Alonso did!


So all this considered, I think Russell should have had a grid 3 place grid drop for the next race (for the incident itself (which I'm surprised he didn't now seeing more of it) and I would even question why his reaction after didn't get noted. Verstappen did shove Ocon with more force, but it was well after both were clearly fine after the minor incident and Ocon in a sense looked like he stepped back in slightly overdramatic fashion after verstappen pushed him the 2nd time.
I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?

As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race? :lol: :lol:


I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.


With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.

And my word count is well under 6 times what you state ;)
What would you penalising Russell for exactly? I thought he was going to need to take to the grass and did so to try and avoid Bottas. As it turned out he didn't need to but it hardly seems punishable. Feels like a racing incident where both men were unfortunate.

And lots of people ae overreacting. I've seen some really nasty stuff being said about Russell across social media since Sunday.
If Hamilton happened to over react too much - which he in fact had more of a reason to as Norris clearly defended, Hamilton will have touched the grass too and likely had a similar outcome. Would you have judged that as a racing incident or blamed Hamilton? IMO, wet or dry is sort of irrelevant as it is still the same track. If you think the conditions do matter, then Russell took to bigger risk, which explains the reasons why I think he should have been penalised.

I wasn't thinking this until today when I'd seen replays of other drivers manage to pull off the same move without making the mistake Russell did. I'm pretty sure there were several earlier on when it was wet too.
Why on earth would the drivers involved make any difference?

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:24 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:03 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:52 pm


I see the most recent new comment is by Hogweed and I know before even opening the thread it will be a 5000 word essay on the defence for Bottas and reasons why George Russell should be confined to burn in hell for all eternity. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think most people are in agreement that Russell is too blame for the accident but most people are also sympathetic to the fact that it's a pretty understandable mistake given the circumstances. This isn't a case of someone attempting a clumsy or optimistic overtaking move. Russell thought he needed to avoid Bottas which caused him to go on the grass and lose control. What exactly would you be penalising there?

As for the tap... Sure, not a great reaction (again, everyone agrees on that) but hardly the worse thing a driver has done in the heat of the moment and there is precedent for it not being punished. You mention Verstappen... Wasn't he punished by being forced to attend a Formula E race? :lol: :lol:


I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.


With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.

And my word count is well under 6 times what you state ;)
What would you penalising Russell for exactly? I thought he was going to need to take to the grass and did so to try and avoid Bottas. As it turned out he didn't need to but it hardly seems punishable. Feels like a racing incident where both men were unfortunate.

And lots of people ae overreacting. I've seen some really nasty stuff being said about Russell across social media since Sunday.
If Hamilton happened to over react too much - which he in fact had more of a reason to as Norris clearly defended, Hamilton will have touched the grass too and likely had a similar outcome. Would you have judged that as a racing incident or blamed Hamilton? IMO, wet or dry is sort of irrelevant as it is still the same track. If you think the conditions do matter, then Russell took to bigger risk, which explains the reasons why I think he should have been penalised.

I wasn't thinking this until today when I'd seen replays of other drivers manage to pull off the same move without making the mistake Russell did. I'm pretty sure there were several earlier on when it was wet too.
Why on earth would the drivers involved make any difference?
I was comparing hamilton and Norris to it because the track condition was slightly different and noticeably drier at the edges of the track.

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UnlikeUday
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Jolyon Palmer's good analysis of Russel-Bottas crash:
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2021/ ... _Prix.html
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spiritone
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by spiritone »

Question. Why a rolling start and not a standing start like last year????

pokerman
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by pokerman »

spiritone wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:49 pm
Question. Why a rolling start and not a standing start like last year????
I heard that the grid wasn't fully dry so some drivers would have disadvantaged.
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mikeyg123
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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:41 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:24 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:03 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:57 pm




I have done similar for other drivers with incidents I don't agree the outcome of and I've highlighted in bold that I don't think Bottas should have been in this position. And that I felt others did indeed think some were over reacting about Russel's actions, but I think they were a step too far, ant that is nothing related to who he or Bottas is. And I think my points. It was totally his misjudgement that he thought he would need to avoid Bottas because he didn't think about the fact there was just that one dry racing line. And in terms of being against Russell, I still don't think a 3 place grid drop and a penalty point or two would have been at all harsh for this - especially given most thought it was on him as even you imply.


With the effort I put into defend Giovinazzi both this and last weekend who I don't even like, It isn't just Bottas that I defend is it? And I'm not defending Bottas anywhere near to the extent that i'm against Russell. And I also wasn't one of the few who voted Latifi over Russell in the team mate wars, so the incident and his actions was obviously enough to vote Latifi over him despite him having a awful race.

And my word count is well under 6 times what you state ;)
What would you penalising Russell for exactly? I thought he was going to need to take to the grass and did so to try and avoid Bottas. As it turned out he didn't need to but it hardly seems punishable. Feels like a racing incident where both men were unfortunate.

And lots of people ae overreacting. I've seen some really nasty stuff being said about Russell across social media since Sunday.
If Hamilton happened to over react too much - which he in fact had more of a reason to as Norris clearly defended, Hamilton will have touched the grass too and likely had a similar outcome. Would you have judged that as a racing incident or blamed Hamilton? IMO, wet or dry is sort of irrelevant as it is still the same track. If you think the conditions do matter, then Russell took to bigger risk, which explains the reasons why I think he should have been penalised.

I wasn't thinking this until today when I'd seen replays of other drivers manage to pull off the same move without making the mistake Russell did. I'm pretty sure there were several earlier on when it was wet too.
Why on earth would the drivers involved make any difference?
I was comparing hamilton and Norris to it because the track condition was slightly different and noticeably drier at the edges of the track.
Beyond them contributing to Russell's loss of control I don't consider the track conditions particularly relevant to the crash.

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Re: 2021 Emilia Romagna (Imola) Grand Prix Race Thread

Post by UnlikeUday »

Looks like Halo did save Bottas from injury...

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