planetf1.com

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:00 pm

Remake with corrected poll?

Tufty wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:15 pm

I've flagged the OP to ask the mods to do it - no idea if we mere mortals even can.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 am

I'll hold off on voting until the poll is sorted out but it's actually quite a touch exercise.

Are we taking into account things like Kimi being very inexperienced in 2002 or are we judging them purely in isolation without any context around the performances?

The mind instantly wants to put Hakkinen top but DC had the beating of him in 2001 and was probably as good overall in 97 as well so if we are judging strictly against DC then I think there is a good claim to put Webber top, Kimi next, then Hill, Hakkinen and Klien.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 am

I'll hold off on voting until the poll is sorted out but it's actually quite a touch exercise.

Are we taking into account things like Kimi being very inexperienced in 2002 or are we judging them purely in isolation without any context around the performances?

The mind instantly wants to put Hakkinen top but DC had the beating of him in 2001 and was probably as good overall in 97 as well so if we are judging strictly against DC then I think there is a good claim to put Webber top, Kimi next, then Hill, Hakkinen and Klien.

Purely results. So your last line is makings sense to me.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

Tufty wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:15 pm

I've flagged the OP to ask the mods to do it - no idea if we mere mortals even can.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:24 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

That's kind of the aim really though to see if the method supports or contradicts your perceptions. Just go with your gut. We all do it with comments like "Bottas outperformed Massa but a greater margin than Alonso did" etc etc

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:13 pm

So 100% of us have put Klien last, not surprisingly.

I'm a little surprised by all the Hakkinen #1 votes. I wonder if those are from people misunderstanding the purpose of the vote? While Hakkinen is very likely the best of the five drivers, my feeling is that he did not dominate Coulthard the way Webber for example did.

Siao7 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:14 am

Sorry Dolo, I just got around doing it.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.

Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:15 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.

I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.

Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.

It's just that the Hill sample is so small and DC was a rookie, Hill and Webber came up against DC at the bookends of his career, I would be guessing that the results maybe weighted in their favour.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm

I won't go into the methodology here because 1) they're all flawed anyway 2) I don't have to and 3) I'm not sure I actually understand it myself.

Fiki wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:38 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm

I won't go into the methodology here because 1) they're all flawed anyway 2) I don't have to and 3) I'm not sure I actually understand it myself.

4) I'm pretty sure I will need your entire data base to work this out...

Or could the person who borrowed my memory of the 00s please return it soon?

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am

OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:20 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:15 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm

I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.

Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.

It's just that the Hill sample is so small and DC was a rookie, Hill and Webber came up against DC at the bookends of his career, I would be guessing that the results maybe weighted in their favour.

I agree but that isn't relevant to the question that's being asked. Dolo asked us to judge them strictly on there performance Vs Coulthard, using DC as a constant. So basically assuming DC was performing at that the same level against all of them.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:07 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am

OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.

No real surprise with the analysis, Hill and Webber were against DC at his weakest while Mika and Kimi were up against DC in his prime and as I suspected Kimi being the more consistent edged out Mika, then of course Klein being the only driver that DC came out on top of being last.

For the reasons given I don't think we can use the list as a definitive of which drivers were better in respect to one another.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:53 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:07 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am

OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.

No real surprise with the analysis, Hill and Webber were against DC at his weakest while Mika and Kimi were up against DC in his prime and as I suspected Kimi being the more consistent edged out Mika, then of course Klein being the only driver that DC came out on top of being last.

For the reasons given I don't think we can use the list as a definitive of which drivers were better in respect to one another.

Do we know that though? If so, how? You have inexperience to explain first 1-2 years maybe, but at what point do we really know a driver is in decline? DC would have been @ 34 when he went to Red Bull with 10 years of experience with a top team. If I was Red Bull signing him, I wouldn't be doing so expecting him to be past his best, but maybe that's weighed up against what you require from the driver and the cost. Do you think Hamilton is past his best? I don't know, maybe you're right but I think we make a lot of judgments about things like this, it would be interesting to see if there's anything to back it up. It would be fascinating to see what the determining factors are - age/experience etc. Verstappen would be an interesting study. 5 Years, 120 races, 10 wins and he's pretty much the same age DC when DC started in F1!

I think the majority of drivers I've seen come in, hit their potential from about their 3rd year, but how long they stay there it's hard to tell.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm

Anyone give me another driver to try it with?

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

How about Trulli? Teamed with Katayama, Panis, Frentzen, Button, Alonso, Ralf Schumacher, Glock and Kovalainen.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.

Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.

Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8

That's not what I would have expected at all. Very interesting.

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm

DOLOMITE wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.

Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8

That's not what I would have expected at all. Very interesting.

How so? Thought he was better?