Which team has the best driver pairing?

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Rank the driver pairings from strongest to weakest

Poll runs till Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 pm

Rank the teams from fastest to slowest
41
6%
Alfa Romeo
25
3%
Alfa Romeo_1
8
1%
Alfa Romeo_2
9
1%
Alfa Romeo_3
32
4%
Alfa Romeo_4
0
No votes
Alpha Tauri
25
3%
Alpha Tauri_1
29
4%
Alpha Tauri_2
33
4%
Alpha Tauri_3
8
1%
Alpha Tauri_4
0
No votes
Alpine
26
4%
Alpine_1
12
2%
Alpine_2
37
5%
Alpine_3
0
No votes
Alpine_4
0
No votes
Aston Martin
15
2%
Aston Martin_1
29
4%
Aston Martin_2
31
4%
Aston Martin_3
7
1%
Aston Martin_4
0
No votes
Ferrari
21
3%
Ferrari_1
29
4%
Ferrari_2
13
2%
Ferrari_3
0
No votes
Ferrari_4
0
No votes
Haas
2
0%
Haas_1
37
5%
Haas_2
1
0%
Haas_3
40
5%
Haas_4
0
No votes
McLaren
20
3%
McLaren_1
17
2%
McLaren_2
23
3%
McLaren_3
0
No votes
McLaren_4
0
No votes
Mercedes
24
3%
Mercedes_1
20
3%
Mercedes_2
7
1%
Mercedes_3
1
0%
Mercedes_4
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing
27
4%
Red Bull Racing_1
13
2%
Red Bull Racing_2
4
1%
Red Bull Racing_3
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing_4
0
No votes
Williams
20
3%
Williams_1
11
1%
Williams_2
6
1%
Williams_3
35
5%
Williams_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 738

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Mod Aqua
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Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Mod Aqua »

This poll was requested - and it's a good one. With so many strong driver pairings - how do you rank them?

Alfa Romeo
Kimi Räikkönen
Antonio Giovinazzi

Alpha Tauri
Pierre Gasly
Yuki Tsunoda

Alpine
Fernando Alonso
Esteban Ocon

Aston Martin
Sebastian Vettel
Lance Stroll

Ferrari
Charles Leclerc
Carlos Sainz

Haas
Mick Schumacher
Nikita Mazepin

McLaren
Daniel Ricciardo
Lando Norris

Mercedes
Lewis Hamilton
Valterri Bottas

Red Bull Racing
Max Verstappen
Sergio Perez

Williams
George Russell
Nicholas Latifi

mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

I've assumed Alonso is at least close to the driver he was in 2018.
1Red Bull Racing
2Alpine
3Mercedes
4Ferrari
5McLaren
6Alpha Tauri
7Williams
8Aston Martin
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

This. Is. Difficult.
1Red Bull Racing
2Mercedes
3Ferrari
4McLaren
5Alpine
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Alfa Romeo
9Williams
10Haas
We have 4 megastar drivers in the form of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc and Alonso. We also have Ricciardo who I think is basically on their level, because it's difficult to fairly assess his final half of a season against Max.

They are also paired with very strong drivers, and really, that's what it is coming down to - with a little bit of Alonso's age and time out dulling his blade.


I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon. That's basically the top 5 sorted. But it really doesn't get easier.

Vettel is a strong driver, 2020 is not a measure of him as as soon as Vettel knows he is leaving a team he sends a balloon with a Vettel face drawn on it to compete in the races for him. I don't think there are many people left who still think that Vettel is in the Hamilton/Alonso league - but he's only one step down and very intelligent. Stroll is no longer a joke, but let's not pretend ourselves he's WDC material.

Gasly is certainly improved from his time against Max but he need to see him genuinely challenged to know by how much. Winning Monza was capitalising on a fluke opportunity, he didn't create his chances but he made sure his chances didn't slip through his fingers. We know Yuki is fast, but until he is tested in the F1 field we don't know the complete picture.

Kimi is still fast, but this is his hobby now, and Giovinazzi has been allowed to develop into a very competent driver. But to be honest this is in the solid driver league, like Stroll.

We then get to Williams. George Russell is probably in the same league as the top guys - I'd put him just behind Ricciardo on my list of drivers if I was hiring them for just one season (but to be honest, top 3 for if I was hiring them for the next 5 seasons) - but his team mate is possibly the weakest driver on the grid outside of the rookies.

That brings us on to the rookie pair. Mick is fast, but probably not his dad. And Mazepin - I'm not going to make any jokes about where his talents lie as I want to remain an unbanned member of this forum. It's a strong line up for a rookie team - but this is a very strong field.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Red Bull Racing
2Mercedes
3Ferrari
4McLaren
5Alpine
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas
Isn't that neat.

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Banana Man
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

1Red Bull Racing
2Mercedes
3Ferrari
4McLaren
5Alpine
6Alpha Tauri
7Aston Martin
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas
Seems to match the forum average pretty closely. Not sure by what metric people are putting AR above Williams. Russel is head and shoulders above the other three drivers in those cars and Latifi isn’t bad enough to offset that.
I remember when this website was all fields.

JN23
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by JN23 »

The difficulty here is the placing Alonso. I’m going with the fact he is not quite as good as he was in 2018 but still very good.

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Red Bull Racing
2Mercedes
3Alpine
4Ferrari
5McLaren
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas
Alpine, Ferrari and McLaren are probably very close. If Alonso has lost quite a bit, it puts Alpine down to fifth at least.

I’m assuming Vettel hasn’t completely lost it and is still a good driver, 2020 was just a dire year from him. Him + Stroll > Gasly + Tsunoda.

KingVoid
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by KingVoid »

I found this to be extremely difficult. I will go with:

1: Red Bull Racing
2: Ferrari
3: Mercedes
4: Alpine
5: McLaren
6: Aston Martin
7: Alpha Tauri
8: Williams
9: Alfa Romeo
10: Haas

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Exediron
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Exediron »

I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.

To get my internal ranking, I quickly assigned every driver a number from 1 to 5 to separate them into broad tiers and then broke the ties to determine a ranking. Here is where I ended up:

1. Mercedes
2. Red Bull
3. Ferrari
4. Alpine
5. McLaren
6. Alpha Tauri
7. Aston Martin
8. Williams
9. Alfa Romeo
10. Haas

The biggest question mark for me was Alpine. I have them tied with Red Bull and Ferrari by my rough numbers, but I've ranked them fourth due to uncertainty over Alonso's form and also Ocon's pace. He didn't look good last year against Ricciardo.

I'm still genuinely surprised that I'm the first person to rank Mercedes as first. I'm fairly confident that Bottas is quicker than Perez, so basically you have to believe Max is significantly better than Lewis to put RBR first.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.
I can only assume that you are confusing qualifying pace with overall ability. Bottas is indeed slightly better than Perez in qualifying (by about a tenth). However, Perez has better tyre management, has better race pace, and is a significantly more skilled wheel-to-wheel racer. Perez is also noticeably better in the rain than Bottas.

We've already seen Perez and Bottas in comparable machinery (2016). Perez finished that season with 101 points to 85 points for Bottas.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.

To get my internal ranking, I quickly assigned every driver a number from 1 to 5 to separate them into broad tiers and then broke the ties to determine a ranking. Here is where I ended up:

1. Mercedes
2. Red Bull
3. Ferrari
4. Alpine
5. McLaren
6. Alpha Tauri
7. Aston Martin
8. Williams
9. Alfa Romeo
10. Haas

The biggest question mark for me was Alpine. I have them tied with Red Bull and Ferrari by my rough numbers, but I've ranked them fourth due to uncertainty over Alonso's form and also Ocon's pace. He didn't look good last year against Ricciardo.

I'm still genuinely surprised that I'm the first person to rank Mercedes as first. I'm fairly confident that Bottas is quicker than Perez, so basically you have to believe Max is significantly better than Lewis to put RBR first.
I just think Perez is a better racer than Bottas. Perez was the tiebreaker for me between Red Bull and Mercedes.

Whether Perez being slower than Bottas by a tenth or whatever in qualifying is enough at the top end of the grid to neutralise any such putative advantage in racing ability, I'm not sure.

I do think it's close overall though. Mercedes #1 is a sensible pick, no doubt.

(PS, I am basing this on quite recent form... an uninspired Bottas vs a Perez who in the second half of 2020 had a shout for DOT2ndhalfoftheY.)

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Exediron
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:03 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.
I can only assume that you are confusing qualifying pace with overall ability. Bottas is indeed slightly better than Perez in qualifying (by about a tenth). However, Perez has better tyre management, has better race pace, and is a significantly more skilled wheel-to-wheel racer. Perez is also noticeably better in the rain than Bottas.

We've already seen Perez and Bottas in comparable machinery (2016). Perez finished that season with 101 points to 85 points for Bottas.
I'm not confusing the two, but I am perhaps less sold on Perez's superior race pace than you are. His tyre management is certainly not in doubt, but he has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now. Prior to becoming Hamilton's teammate, Bottas looked quite good as well.

The true test will be how well Perez stacks up to Verstappen. I wouldn't mind if you're correct, I just think a lot of people are overrating Perez and underrating Bottas.

BTW: I didn't factor skill in the rain at all. Over the course of a season, I tend to think it's an insignificant differentiator.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:03 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.
I can only assume that you are confusing qualifying pace with overall ability. Bottas is indeed slightly better than Perez in qualifying (by about a tenth). However, Perez has better tyre management, has better race pace, and is a significantly more skilled wheel-to-wheel racer. Perez is also noticeably better in the rain than Bottas.

We've already seen Perez and Bottas in comparable machinery (2016). Perez finished that season with 101 points to 85 points for Bottas.
I'm not confusing the two, but I am perhaps less sold on Perez's superior race pace than you are. His tyre management is certainly not in doubt, but he has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now. Prior to becoming Hamilton's teammate, Bottas looked quite good as well.

The true test will be how well Perez stacks up to Verstappen. I wouldn't mind if you're correct, I just think a lot of people are overrating Perez and underrating Bottas.

BTW: I didn't factor skill in the rain at all. Over the course of a season, I tend to think it's an insignificant differentiator.
I had significant doubts about Bottas’ race pace even before he became teammates with Hamilton. In a two car finish, he lost 9-5 to Maldonado (albeit in his rookie season) and drew 23-23 against Massa. Bottas’ questionable race pace and tyre management have been a theme throughout his career.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

Perez is kind of an unknown right now at the very sharp end of the grid. I don't think he'll be found wanting if Red Bull and Mercedes are clearly ahead. If the midfield were close than maybe Perez would be eaten alive by Leclerc, Ricciardo, Alonso in qualifying and be many positions removed from Verstappen? Whereas Bottas would still hold his own?

Schumacher forever#1
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Red Bull Racing
2Ferrari
3Mercedes
4Alpine
5McLaren
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas


Red Bull Racing are a clear number 1 in my view - probably the most formidable lineup possible while maintaining team harmony. I think Verstappen is the best driver right now, and am very impressed with Perez over the past few seasons who's matured into a beast of a driver.

I think people are thus far underrating the Ferrari duo (except KingVoid of course who I share the exact same ranking). Leclerc is arguably the fastest qualifier, and I hold Sainz in a very high regard (used to consider him best of the rest - that title now holds to Perez, unless Perez becomes considered a tier one driver of course).

If Alonso is as good as he last was in a competitive car, then Alpine would definitely be bumped up. Ocon had a poor season last year, but was strong in the seasons before. Still think there's a lot of potential there.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:03 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.
I can only assume that you are confusing qualifying pace with overall ability. Bottas is indeed slightly better than Perez in qualifying (by about a tenth). However, Perez has better tyre management, has better race pace, and is a significantly more skilled wheel-to-wheel racer. Perez is also noticeably better in the rain than Bottas.

We've already seen Perez and Bottas in comparable machinery (2016). Perez finished that season with 101 points to 85 points for Bottas.
In recent years, this looks like it is true most of the time. But mainly because Bottas has recently been too cautious. Bottas took more opportunities when racing at willaims and actually did more noticeable overtakes back then. As I pointed out in 2018, there were a lot of very dirty moves from perez in wheel to wheel combat. He is variable in wheel to wheel action and I wouldn't say it is one of his strengths as some of his moves have been unacceptable.
Bottas didn't have the problems he seems to now with tyre management at Williams. He could frequently pull off strategies such as 1 stops and beat faster cars. Maybe not quite as good as Perez in this specific area, but very close. This can be counted against him, but I think Bottas is still capable of being better than he is. Hamilton just seems to break his confidence which effects his performance (which is a pretty big weakness admittedly)

Last year and 2018, I would rate Perez ahead of Bottas in terms of how they performed over the whole season, even though both were a bit poor that in 2018. But in 2017 and 2019, I would say Bottas was better than Perez.

Back when Bottas was at williams, I personally thought he looked better than Perez in each season other than his rookie year. The Force India was probably a bit weaker than the Williams to begin with in 2016, but certainly seemed better in the final 3rd of the season. Bottas led both force indias home In Malaysia, but was blameless for a first lap collision in Singapore and the USA which ruined his race as well as having a suspension failure in Abudhabi. This very likely cost him the place to Perez in the standings.

Regarding wet races, I will admit Bottas generally is rather weak in them, but I don't think Perez is obviously better. He also crashed out in Germany 2019 and Bottas has occasionally (not often) looked decent in the rain like Perez has. He was admittedly out of the points in Brazil 2016 but the williams was shockingly bad in these conditions and he managed to be one of only 2 drivers to complete a very large final stage of the race on inters while the rest were on full wets. He spent quite a lot of the race in the points at least.

Yet another thing to add that I think makes Mercedes the best driver pairing (or at least the strongest) is that they have got 12 years experience at the team between them. Verstappen has had under 5 and Perez is in a totally new environment. It isn't the biggest factor in terms of what makes the best driver pairing, but it certainly makes a difference.

I rate Hamilton as a more complete top driver than Verstappen, and going back and looking at Bottas and Perez, I don't think there has been enough to say Perez is actually better than Bottas overall.

So like like Exediron, I'm a bit surprised Red Bull are voted 1st by so many. Perez has more recently been against Stroll. While I rate Stroll higher than most, he's still not that good and before that, Perez was against Ocon who also doesn't seem very well rated. And Ocon was barely any worse than Perez.

I personally struggle to believe that some consider Sainz and Leclerc as a stronger line up than Mercedes.
Leclerc can at times look like he's possibly the fastest driver on the grid, but the level of mistakes (and they are big mistakes) is just too high. He looks like he'll get around this in the future, but he doesn't look as good as Vettel did at this team in 2015. Sainz is also new to the team like perez, but Sainz has looked closely matched to a rookie, then still didn't look any better than Norris the following year. Sainz is solid but not exactly brilliant IMO. Alongside a quick but very error prone driver like Leclerc doesn't make a better line up than mercedes to me.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:03 am
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.
I can only assume that you are confusing qualifying pace with overall ability. Bottas is indeed slightly better than Perez in qualifying (by about a tenth). However, Perez has better tyre management, has better race pace, and is a significantly more skilled wheel-to-wheel racer. Perez is also noticeably better in the rain than Bottas.

We've already seen Perez and Bottas in comparable machinery (2016). Perez finished that season with 101 points to 85 points for Bottas.
I'm not confusing the two, but I am perhaps less sold on Perez's superior race pace than you are. His tyre management is certainly not in doubt, but he has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now. Prior to becoming Hamilton's teammate, Bottas looked quite good as well.

The true test will be how well Perez stacks up to Verstappen. I wouldn't mind if you're correct, I just think a lot of people are overrating Perez and underrating Bottas.

BTW: I didn't factor skill in the rain at all. Over the course of a season, I tend to think it's an insignificant differentiator.
:thumbup:

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.

To get my internal ranking, I quickly assigned every driver a number from 1 to 5 to separate them into broad tiers and then broke the ties to determine a ranking. Here is where I ended up:

1. Mercedes
2. Red Bull
3. Ferrari
4. Alpine
5. McLaren
6. Alpha Tauri
7. Aston Martin
8. Williams
9. Alfa Romeo
10. Haas

The biggest question mark for me was Alpine. I have them tied with Red Bull and Ferrari by my rough numbers, but I've ranked them fourth due to uncertainty over Alonso's form and also Ocon's pace. He didn't look good last year against Ricciardo.

I'm still genuinely surprised that I'm the first person to rank Mercedes as first. I'm fairly confident that Bottas is quicker than Perez, so basically you have to believe Max is significantly better than Lewis to put RBR first.
Your list is pretty much the same as what I would have. I'll just give my thoughts on them. Despite me being unsure on 3, it's not like I disagree - yet :lol:

Agree with Mercedes being 1st and Red Bull 2nd based on what i've said in another post.

I actually think the next 3 are further away from the top 2 and a little more tricky to order. I think Leclerc has the ability to get better and is often quite possibly the fastest on the grid. But he doesn't yet seem capable of being this without making more and bigger mistakes than every driver on the grid which is what lets this team down a bit. Sainz is solid, but I think the fact he was matched by Norris as a rookie then continued to be the case last year, I don't rate Sainz as high as some.

Ocon looked bad against Ricciardo, but he hardly ever made mistakes. Will be a solid number 2 driver and he did nearly match Perez in 2018. I've made it clear elsewhere that I don't rate Alonso as high as others even when he was in his final years with Mclaren. I don't think having a few years off will help that much and I don't expect him to be a great deal better than Ocon.

McLaren is another hard one. When Ricciardo moved to renault (a new team to him) he initially looked pretty poor and made loads of mistakes, but the following year I rated him as the 3rd best driver. His team change to red bull in 2014, he looked incredible in his first year, so not sure how the change to Mclaren will effect him. While Norris is inexperienced, he does seem very good considering that, but I expect Ricciardo will be better. At the moment, I just can't decide where to place Ferrari, Alpine and McLaren out of 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Agree on Aston Martin. It may be the last chance for him, but I think Vettel may have the chance to perform like he did in 2015 in the car suits him. I think Stroll was a little under rated last season. Consistency is his biggest problem but he had a big enough step up over 2019 that I think as he's still very young, he will likely still keep improving. I think this will be at least a decent line up and will probably get several podiums this year.

Williams was a tight one with Alfa Romeo. I think Kimi has got just slightly worse over last season, but I also think Giovinazzi is at least a decent f1 driver now. With Kimi's experience and occasional signs of really good skill, i think it is still a reasonable line up. It is only because of Russell's skill that I can rate williams ahead and only just as Latifi while not being quite as bad as some say, I would still rate him very low out of the drivers we have.

I pretty much summed up alfa romeo above.

Haas are last and it is simply because they are 2 rookies.

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DFWdude
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by DFWdude »

I will shake up the predictions, based on what needs to be said... The best driver pairing is one where there is a dominant driver and a compliant second driver that (desired or not) supports the dominant driver.

Accordingly, here is how I voted in the poll:
1Mercedes
2Ferrari
3Aston Martin
4Red Bull Racing
5Alpine
6McLaren
7Alpha Tauri
8Alfa Romeo
9Williams
10Haas
I do not think that Alonso will factor in this at all, having lost several steps. If you're not currently in the game, you won't catch up on rejoining.

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Banana Man
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Banana Man »

Vettel better than Max and Stroll better than Perez?! The latter two were even teammates last season and Perez gave him an absolute a*se-whoopin’.
I remember when this website was all fields.

Jenson's Understeer
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

The how:
1Mercedes
2Red Bull Racing
3McLaren
4Ferrari
5Alpine
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas

The why:

IMO the top five teams all have a number one driver who is one of F1's best five drivers paired with a second driver who has both positives and negatives. For me, Hamilton and Verstappen are the elite of those number one drivers. I don't think there is a great deal between them, and Max will become the best driver on the grid either before or when Lewis retires. Prior to his departure from F1 I would absolutely have had Alonso in there too, but I've dropped him down a little simply because - as of today - I think he still need a few races to get fully back up to speed. You've also got Ricciardo and Leclerc, both of whom I think are very good drivers to lead a team but aren't at that truly elite level. If Ferrari or McLaren are the team to beat in 2022 then they'll have a very good shot at the WDC against their current teammates, and Leclerc particularly could still reach the Max/Lewis level. But for now they're just that bit below, the drivers you would sign to start a team if you couldn't get Max or Lewis.

Looking at the second drivers, I think you start with Norris and Sainz simply because they had two years together at McLaren and were pretty evenly matched. With those two and Ricciardo/Leclerc also being quite close in my estimation, it means Ferrari and McLaren are very hard to differentiate. For me, I just nudge McLaren ahead on the feeling that Ricciardo is a little more consistent/experienced than Leclerc.

Alpine are below those two teams on the basis of the question marks about Alonso after his time away (for the record, I think he'll answer those very, very quickly, but we're basing this on today, not a month or two from now) and Ocon sitting slightly below Norris/Sainz. Mercedes/Red Bull go above them on the strength of their star drivers.

After the top five I've pretty much followed the trend, with Aston Martin (lacking the star driver the top five have), AlphaTauri (same but with a rookie as the second driver), Williams (Russell drags them above Alfa in spite of Latifi's attempts at stopping that), Alfa (one experienced but lower half driver and another who is not that much better than Latifi), and Haas (two rookies). Again, all based on right now, not on potential for months or years from today.
Pick 10 | 1st x3, 2nd x5, 3rd x9
'20: 12th | '19: 11th | '18: 5th | '17: 6th | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
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mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?

Not me you're asking but I don't see it as that a controversial opinion. I'd have thought most people would expect Bottas to have at least a marginal edge. Bottas is actually very good. He's just unlucky against Hamilton. Hulk/Bottas/Perez/Ocon/Sainz are all at a similar level in my opinion. Sainz probably being the slightly weaker of the 5.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:30 pm
The how:
1Mercedes
2Red Bull Racing
3McLaren
4Ferrari
5Alpine
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas

The why:

IMO the top five teams all have a number one driver who is one of F1's best five drivers paired with a second driver who has both positives and negatives. For me, Hamilton and Verstappen are the elite of those number one drivers. I don't think there is a great deal between them, and Max will become the best driver on the grid either before or when Lewis retires. Prior to his departure from F1 I would absolutely have had Alonso in there too, but I've dropped him down a little simply because - as of today - I think he still need a few races to get fully back up to speed. You've also got Ricciardo and Leclerc, both of whom I think are very good drivers to lead a team but aren't at that truly elite level. If Ferrari or McLaren are the team to beat in 2022 then they'll have a very good shot at the WDC against their current teammates, and Leclerc particularly could still reach the Max/Lewis level. But for now they're just that bit below, the drivers you would sign to start a team if you couldn't get Max or Lewis.

Looking at the second drivers, I think you start with Norris and Sainz simply because they had two years together at McLaren and were pretty evenly matched. With those two and Ricciardo/Leclerc also being quite close in my estimation, it means Ferrari and McLaren are very hard to differentiate. For me, I just nudge McLaren ahead on the feeling that Ricciardo is a little more consistent/experienced than Leclerc.

Alpine are below those two teams on the basis of the question marks about Alonso after his time away (for the record, I think he'll answer those very, very quickly, but we're basing this on today, not a month or two from now) and Ocon sitting slightly below Norris/Sainz. Mercedes/Red Bull go above them on the strength of their star drivers.

After the top five I've pretty much followed the trend, with Aston Martin (lacking the star driver the top five have), AlphaTauri (same but with a rookie as the second driver), Williams (Russell drags them above Alfa in spite of Latifi's attempts at stopping that), Alfa (one experienced but lower half driver and another who is not that much better than Latifi), and Haas (two rookies). Again, all based on right now, not on potential for months or years from today.
After replying to Exediron's post mentioning that I couldn't decide positions 3, 4 and 5, after giving it some thought, I think I agree with this order. Will likely vote soon.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:54 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?

Not me you're asking but I don't see it as that a controversial opinion. I'd have thought most people would expect Bottas to have at least a marginal edge. Bottas is actually very good. He's just unlucky against Hamilton. Hulk/Bottas/Perez/Ocon/Sainz are all at a similar level in my opinion. Sainz probably being the slightly weaker of the 5.
I certainly agree here. Many (possibly including me) were a bit harsh on Ocon last year. He looked very close to Perez and he's looked pretty clean and error free last year. I think Ricciardo having such a good season made him look worse than he was in a similar way to Bottas against Hamilton.

I would add Norris to this group of drivers too. But the fact that Norris pretty much looks bang on Sainz's level even as a rookie is what makes me think Sainz isn't quite as good as many think, and another reason why I agree he's possibly the weakest of the 5 you mention.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:30 pm
The how:
1Mercedes
2Red Bull Racing
3McLaren
4Ferrari
5Alpine
6Aston Martin
7Alpha Tauri
8Williams
9Alfa Romeo
10Haas

The why:

IMO the top five teams all have a number one driver who is one of F1's best five drivers paired with a second driver who has both positives and negatives. For me, Hamilton and Verstappen are the elite of those number one drivers. I don't think there is a great deal between them, and Max will become the best driver on the grid either before or when Lewis retires. Prior to his departure from F1 I would absolutely have had Alonso in there too, but I've dropped him down a little simply because - as of today - I think he still need a few races to get fully back up to speed. You've also got Ricciardo and Leclerc, both of whom I think are very good drivers to lead a team but aren't at that truly elite level. If Ferrari or McLaren are the team to beat in 2022 then they'll have a very good shot at the WDC against their current teammates, and Leclerc particularly could still reach the Max/Lewis level. But for now they're just that bit below, the drivers you would sign to start a team if you couldn't get Max or Lewis.

Looking at the second drivers, I think you start with Norris and Sainz simply because they had two years together at McLaren and were pretty evenly matched. With those two and Ricciardo/Leclerc also being quite close in my estimation, it means Ferrari and McLaren are very hard to differentiate. For me, I just nudge McLaren ahead on the feeling that Ricciardo is a little more consistent/experienced than Leclerc.

Alpine are below those two teams on the basis of the question marks about Alonso after his time away (for the record, I think he'll answer those very, very quickly, but we're basing this on today, not a month or two from now) and Ocon sitting slightly below Norris/Sainz. Mercedes/Red Bull go above them on the strength of their star drivers.

After the top five I've pretty much followed the trend, with Aston Martin (lacking the star driver the top five have), AlphaTauri (same but with a rookie as the second driver), Williams (Russell drags them above Alfa in spite of Latifi's attempts at stopping that), Alfa (one experienced but lower half driver and another who is not that much better than Latifi), and Haas (two rookies). Again, all based on right now, not on potential for months or years from today.
After replying to Exediron's post mentioning that I couldn't decide positions 3, 4 and 5, after giving it some thought, I think I agree with this order. Will likely vote soon.
McLaren/Ferrari was the toughest choice for me and tbh, I can totally buy arguments that it should be the other way to the way I've got it. And I have to echo Exediron's earlier point that he was surprised to see Red Bull ahead of Mercedes overall. Right now, my expectation is that Perez will be an upgrade on Albon/Gasly but will still fall short of Max's level, and will probably really push him at fewer weekends than Bottas will Lewis. If he proves me wrong then that makes it a much harder decision, but until then I felt like the only fair way to rank the drivers was based on where things stand today, not on how it could be a month from now.
Pick 10 | 1st x3, 2nd x5, 3rd x9
'20: 12th | '19: 11th | '18: 5th | '17: 6th | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

I voted with the added projection of season performance somewhat, using primarily 2020 season performances. Actually, I saw no other sensible or more meaningful way of trying to do it. Still difficult as there are rookies and drivers in new teams, Alonso returning after a fairly lengthy break who takes a bigger hit in my projections despite believing he'll probably be on it... and so on.

Regarding Merc and Red Bull, for 2020 season performance this equates to something like Max is = P1 + Perez ~P5 and Hamilton is = P1 + Bottas ~P9 or so and a step below Perez in 'tier'.

Red Bull wins.

The projection depends on Perez continuing to demonstrate his value in the races by getting to grips quickly with the Red Bull and the opinion that, anyway, if Perez is a tenth off Bottas, Max has a tenth on Hamilton in qualifying.

Now Mercedes do have a proven team which harmonises well together therefore I can see why some would give them the nod even if they were to come to the conclusion that Red Bull perhaps has the better driver pairing potential.


On Sainz. I don't think we should be hasty to put him ahead of the likes of Bottas, even though I think he did have a better season in 2020. He might be a few months away from being mullered by Leclerc. I'm guessing that wouldn't surprise many people.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
Because he is very close to Hamilton in qualifying pace and has the experience of winning races. Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier. Bottas is also not in that tier.

But to be clear - those drivers I see as all roughly equal.

If I was dividing the drivers into Tiers

S Tier: Hamilton (S+) , Leclerc / Verstappen / Alonso (S) , Ricciardo / Russell (S-)
A Tier: Perez/Vettel (A+) , Bottas/Sainz/Norris (A) , Ocon / Gasly / Raikkonen(A-)
B Tier: Tsunoda / Schumacher (B+) , Stroll / Giovinazzi (B-)
C Tier: Mazepin (C+) , Latiffi (C-)

Alonso was at S+ prior to retirement, but with 2 years out I am assuming he will need a season to get back up to full potential.

The GP2 recruits are provisional and likely to be much higher by the end of the season. Kimi is where he is due to his experience.

I can see that some people may rank Sainz above Bottas - because they are broadly operating at a similar level and we don't have any basis for direct comparison. However to suggest that it's a controversial opinion that Bottas is slightly faster than Sainz is just buying into the BOTTASS IS SOOO SLOW BUT MERC CAR MAKE HIM GET PODIUMS drivel that saturates social media comments sections.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:54 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?

Not me you're asking but I don't see it as that a controversial opinion. I'd have thought most people would expect Bottas to have at least a marginal edge. Bottas is actually very good. He's just unlucky against Hamilton. Hulk/Bottas/Perez/Ocon/Sainz are all at a similar level in my opinion. Sainz probably being the slightly weaker of the 5.
I certainly agree here. Many (possibly including me) were a bit harsh on Ocon last year. He looked very close to Perez and he's looked pretty clean and error free last year. I think Ricciardo having such a good season made him look worse than he was in a similar way to Bottas against Hamilton.

I would add Norris to this group of drivers too. But the fact that Norris pretty much looks bang on Sainz's level even as a rookie is what makes me think Sainz isn't quite as good as many think, and another reason why I agree he's possibly the weakest of the 5 you mention.
Yep, I would add Norris to that little group of drivers as well.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 am
Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier.
Ah yes. I seem to periodically forget that Hulk edged Sainz at Renault. All in all seems a measured take.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Kev627 »

Personally I think Red Bull and McLaren have the best driver pairings. I think these two teams will allow the drivers more freedom when it comes to racing each other and in both cases I think the rivalry and competition between the drivers will be very closely fought.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
Because he is very close to Hamilton in qualifying pace and has the experience of winning races. Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier. Bottas is also not in that tier.

But to be clear - those drivers I see as all roughly equal.

If I was dividing the drivers into Tiers

S Tier: Hamilton (S+) , Leclerc / Verstappen / Alonso (S) , Ricciardo / Russell (S-)
A Tier: Perez/Vettel (A+) , Bottas/Sainz/Norris (A) , Ocon / Gasly / Raikkonen(A-)
B Tier: Tsunoda / Schumacher (B+) , Stroll / Giovinazzi (B-)
C Tier: Mazepin (C+) , Latiffi (C-)


Alonso was at S+ prior to retirement, but with 2 years out I am assuming he will need a season to get back up to full potential.

The GP2 recruits are provisional and likely to be much higher by the end of the season. Kimi is where he is due to his experience.

I can see that some people may rank Sainz above Bottas - because they are broadly operating at a similar level and we don't have any basis for direct comparison. However to suggest that it's a controversial opinion that Bottas is slightly faster than Sainz is just buying into the BOTTASS IS SOOO SLOW BUT MERC CAR MAKE HIM GET PODIUMS drivel that saturates social media comments sections.
Agree with most of these, but I still question how many rate Russell so highly that they consider him to be in the same tier as Hamilton and Verstappen. He's had 2 seasons both of which were against a driver who was easily the worst one the grid. Russell wasn't error free and made a couple of very big errors last year such as crashing before the race began (terrible if you were in a top team) and crashing during the safety car. Even Russia was a shocking performance (based on his rankings by many) where he locked up, ruined his strategy and finished last by 30 seconds. He showed he was capable at Mercedes with no experience, but this was a single event with Bottas on a bad day. His start off the line at the same circuit the previous race was very bad and over half the time he got out launched by Kubica at williams which kind of undoes his one-sided qualifying performance. His launches will need to be far more consistent before I could consider him a top driver. They were not noticed enough at williams as he didn't have much to lose. I am harsh on him, but mainly because I see so many rate him as one of the best on the grid. I think he's easily in the top 10, but not at the top level yet - or at least it isn't proven.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:36 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
Because he is very close to Hamilton in qualifying pace and has the experience of winning races. Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier. Bottas is also not in that tier.

But to be clear - those drivers I see as all roughly equal.

If I was dividing the drivers into Tiers

S Tier: Hamilton (S+) , Leclerc / Verstappen / Alonso (S) , Ricciardo / Russell (S-)
A Tier: Perez/Vettel (A+) , Bottas/Sainz/Norris (A) , Ocon / Gasly / Raikkonen(A-)
B Tier: Tsunoda / Schumacher (B+) , Stroll / Giovinazzi (B-)
C Tier: Mazepin (C+) , Latiffi (C-)


Alonso was at S+ prior to retirement, but with 2 years out I am assuming he will need a season to get back up to full potential.

The GP2 recruits are provisional and likely to be much higher by the end of the season. Kimi is where he is due to his experience.

I can see that some people may rank Sainz above Bottas - because they are broadly operating at a similar level and we don't have any basis for direct comparison. However to suggest that it's a controversial opinion that Bottas is slightly faster than Sainz is just buying into the BOTTASS IS SOOO SLOW BUT MERC CAR MAKE HIM GET PODIUMS drivel that saturates social media comments sections.
Agree with most of these, but I still question how many rate Russell so highly that they consider him to be in the same tier as Hamilton and Verstappen. He's had 2 seasons both of which were against a driver who was easily the worst one the grid. Russell wasn't error free and made a couple of very big errors last year such as crashing before the race began (terrible if you were in a top team) and crashing during the safety car. Even Russia was a shocking performance (based on his rankings by many) where he locked up, ruined his strategy and finished last by 30 seconds. He showed he was capable at Mercedes with no experience, but this was a single event with Bottas on a bad day. His start off the line at the same circuit the previous race was very bad and over half the time he got out launched by Kubica at williams which kind of undoes his one-sided qualifying performance. His launches will need to be far more consistent before I could consider him a top driver. They were not noticed enough at williams as he didn't have much to lose. I am harsh on him, but mainly because I see so many rate him as one of the best on the grid. I think he's easily in the top 10, but not at the top level yet - or at least it isn't proven.
He was GP2 champ in a strong year, his Sakhir performance against Bottas is most impressive not that he beat him, but that he was highly compromised in the car due to being too big for it, yet despite Mercedes having a rare meltdown, he didn't put a foot wrong and in less than 2 hours ended Bottas's Mercedes career. (Who I rate as A tier) he showed he can deliver on his potential, and it's probably the single most impressive example of a driver stepping up mid season of the last 20 years.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:36 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:40 pm
It means I think that if Bottas and Sainz were team mates that Bottas would have an edge on Sainz.
I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
Because he is very close to Hamilton in qualifying pace and has the experience of winning races. Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier. Bottas is also not in that tier.

But to be clear - those drivers I see as all roughly equal.

If I was dividing the drivers into Tiers

S Tier: Hamilton (S+) , Leclerc / Verstappen / Alonso (S) , Ricciardo / Russell (S-)
A Tier: Perez/Vettel (A+) , Bottas/Sainz/Norris (A) , Ocon / Gasly / Raikkonen(A-)
B Tier: Tsunoda / Schumacher (B+) , Stroll / Giovinazzi (B-)
C Tier: Mazepin (C+) , Latiffi (C-)


Alonso was at S+ prior to retirement, but with 2 years out I am assuming he will need a season to get back up to full potential.

The GP2 recruits are provisional and likely to be much higher by the end of the season. Kimi is where he is due to his experience.

I can see that some people may rank Sainz above Bottas - because they are broadly operating at a similar level and we don't have any basis for direct comparison. However to suggest that it's a controversial opinion that Bottas is slightly faster than Sainz is just buying into the BOTTASS IS SOOO SLOW BUT MERC CAR MAKE HIM GET PODIUMS drivel that saturates social media comments sections.
Agree with most of these, but I still question how many rate Russell so highly that they consider him to be in the same tier as Hamilton and Verstappen. He's had 2 seasons both of which were against a driver who was easily the worst one the grid. Russell wasn't error free and made a couple of very big errors last year such as crashing before the race began (terrible if you were in a top team) and crashing during the safety car. Even Russia was a shocking performance (based on his rankings by many) where he locked up, ruined his strategy and finished last by 30 seconds. He showed he was capable at Mercedes with no experience, but this was a single event with Bottas on a bad day. His start off the line at the same circuit the previous race was very bad and over half the time he got out launched by Kubica at williams which kind of undoes his one-sided qualifying performance. His launches will need to be far more consistent before I could consider him a top driver. They were not noticed enough at williams as he didn't have much to lose. I am harsh on him, but mainly because I see so many rate him as one of the best on the grid. I think he's easily in the top 10, but not at the top level yet - or at least it isn't proven.
He was GP2 champ in a strong year, his Sakhir performance against Bottas is most impressive not that he beat him, but that he was highly compromised in the car due to being too big for it, yet despite Mercedes having a rare meltdown, he didn't put a foot wrong and in less than 2 hours ended Bottas's Mercedes career. (Who I rate as A tier) he showed he can deliver on his potential, and it's probably the single most impressive example of a driver stepping up mid season of the last 20 years.
It is statements like this that I don't get. It is the media and speculation thinking this. We don't 100% know how well Russell will perform this season. At Williams, he had several very good performances, but also several bad ones. So that one off performance at Mercedes isn't proof of his consistency. We don't know if Bottas may me able to have a solid enough season for Mercedes to keep this pair because they work together well. We don't know if Hamilton well leave Mercedes (in which case, Bottas's Mercedes career is not over.

They is certainly a strong chance Bottas will leave at the end of this year, but I'd say it is just as possible he will still be there. I think I need to see another season at least from Russell before confirming he's a big step up on Bottas.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:19 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:42 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:36 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:44 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:43 pm


I'm not sure I was clear.

Why in the seven hells do you think Bottas is quicker than Sainz?
Because he is very close to Hamilton in qualifying pace and has the experience of winning races. Sainz is a great driver but he was beaten by Hulk who was beaten by Ricciardo, so he's clearly not in the top level tier. Bottas is also not in that tier.

But to be clear - those drivers I see as all roughly equal.

If I was dividing the drivers into Tiers

S Tier: Hamilton (S+) , Leclerc / Verstappen / Alonso (S) , Ricciardo / Russell (S-)
A Tier: Perez/Vettel (A+) , Bottas/Sainz/Norris (A) , Ocon / Gasly / Raikkonen(A-)
B Tier: Tsunoda / Schumacher (B+) , Stroll / Giovinazzi (B-)
C Tier: Mazepin (C+) , Latiffi (C-)


Alonso was at S+ prior to retirement, but with 2 years out I am assuming he will need a season to get back up to full potential.

The GP2 recruits are provisional and likely to be much higher by the end of the season. Kimi is where he is due to his experience.

I can see that some people may rank Sainz above Bottas - because they are broadly operating at a similar level and we don't have any basis for direct comparison. However to suggest that it's a controversial opinion that Bottas is slightly faster than Sainz is just buying into the BOTTASS IS SOOO SLOW BUT MERC CAR MAKE HIM GET PODIUMS drivel that saturates social media comments sections.
Agree with most of these, but I still question how many rate Russell so highly that they consider him to be in the same tier as Hamilton and Verstappen. He's had 2 seasons both of which were against a driver who was easily the worst one the grid. Russell wasn't error free and made a couple of very big errors last year such as crashing before the race began (terrible if you were in a top team) and crashing during the safety car. Even Russia was a shocking performance (based on his rankings by many) where he locked up, ruined his strategy and finished last by 30 seconds. He showed he was capable at Mercedes with no experience, but this was a single event with Bottas on a bad day. His start off the line at the same circuit the previous race was very bad and over half the time he got out launched by Kubica at williams which kind of undoes his one-sided qualifying performance. His launches will need to be far more consistent before I could consider him a top driver. They were not noticed enough at williams as he didn't have much to lose. I am harsh on him, but mainly because I see so many rate him as one of the best on the grid. I think he's easily in the top 10, but not at the top level yet - or at least it isn't proven.
He was GP2 champ in a strong year, his Sakhir performance against Bottas is most impressive not that he beat him, but that he was highly compromised in the car due to being too big for it, yet despite Mercedes having a rare meltdown, he didn't put a foot wrong and in less than 2 hours ended Bottas's Mercedes career. (Who I rate as A tier) he showed he can deliver on his potential, and it's probably the single most impressive example of a driver stepping up mid season of the last 20 years.
It is statements like this that I don't get. It is the media and speculation thinking this. We don't 100% know how well Russell will perform this season. At Williams, he had several very good performances, but also several bad ones. So that one off performance at Mercedes isn't proof of his consistency. We don't know if Bottas may me able to have a solid enough season for Mercedes to keep this pair because they work together well. We don't know if Hamilton well leave Mercedes (in which case, Bottas's Mercedes career is not over.

They is certainly a strong chance Bottas will leave at the end of this year, but I'd say it is just as possible he will still be there. I think I need to see another season at least from Russell before confirming he's a big step up on Bottas.
If Russell can match Bottas when given the worst possible circumstances the chances are very high he could get the better of him most of the time. That's not proved of course but it rarely is when you're changing drivers. Merc have a lot more info on how Bottas and Russell compare than Ferrari did with Raikkonen and Leclerc for example

Basically Merc won't be waiting for proof and if you are, then you're going to be disappointed because you aren't going to get it.

I think Russell was always very likely to be promoted to Merc in 2022. Bahrain did, in my view, all but end Bottas' chances of staying on assuming Hamilton doesn't retire.

pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
I think it's the ability to re-write history which we see now and again.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:18 am
I'm seeing a lot of people rating Red Bull at the top, which I find a bit surprising. Personally, I don't see Perez as a significantly stronger driver than Sainz, and almost certainly slower on raw pace than Bottas.

To get my internal ranking, I quickly assigned every driver a number from 1 to 5 to separate them into broad tiers and then broke the ties to determine a ranking. Here is where I ended up:

1. Mercedes
2. Red Bull
3. Ferrari
4. Alpine
5. McLaren
6. Alpha Tauri
7. Aston Martin
8. Williams
9. Alfa Romeo
10. Haas

The biggest question mark for me was Alpine. I have them tied with Red Bull and Ferrari by my rough numbers, but I've ranked them fourth due to uncertainty over Alonso's form and also Ocon's pace. He didn't look good last year against Ricciardo.

I'm still genuinely surprised that I'm the first person to rank Mercedes as first. I'm fairly confident that Bottas is quicker than Perez, so basically you have to believe Max is significantly better than Lewis to put RBR first.
I kind of had a similar methodology first I ranked the drivers then I saw were that got me and the results were the same as yours apart from having Aston Martin and AlphaTauri the other way around, even then it was close between the two of them.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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mikeyg123
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:25 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:25 pm
I rate Perez > Bottas > Sainz == Norris > Ocon.
Explain this please.
Exediron wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:01 am
...but [Perez] has never been partnered with a teammate even remotely as strong as Hamilton before now.
People seem to forget that Checo was battered by Button in 2013.
  • In qualifying, 10-9 to Button.
  • In races, 11-5 to Button.
  • In points, 73-49 to Button.
Now I concede Perez has improved in the last 7 season but I think there is a reasonable possibility he will be Albon'd unless the car has significantly better drivability.
He wasn't battered by Button. It was his first year in a new team and started slightly off the pace as most drivers do when moving teams. Over the second half of the season he was Button's equal.

That's actually really good. People have been misrepresenting Perez' performance in 2013 for years.

pokerman
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

19 votes in and the top 10 is identical to mine, nice. :)
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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