Which team has the best driver pairing?

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Rank the driver pairings from strongest to weakest

Poll runs till Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:41 pm

Rank the teams from fastest to slowest
41
6%
Alfa Romeo
25
3%
Alfa Romeo_1
8
1%
Alfa Romeo_2
9
1%
Alfa Romeo_3
32
4%
Alfa Romeo_4
0
No votes
Alpha Tauri
25
3%
Alpha Tauri_1
29
4%
Alpha Tauri_2
33
4%
Alpha Tauri_3
8
1%
Alpha Tauri_4
0
No votes
Alpine
26
4%
Alpine_1
12
2%
Alpine_2
37
5%
Alpine_3
0
No votes
Alpine_4
0
No votes
Aston Martin
15
2%
Aston Martin_1
29
4%
Aston Martin_2
31
4%
Aston Martin_3
7
1%
Aston Martin_4
0
No votes
Ferrari
21
3%
Ferrari_1
29
4%
Ferrari_2
13
2%
Ferrari_3
0
No votes
Ferrari_4
0
No votes
Haas
2
0%
Haas_1
37
5%
Haas_2
1
0%
Haas_3
40
5%
Haas_4
0
No votes
McLaren
20
3%
McLaren_1
17
2%
McLaren_2
23
3%
McLaren_3
0
No votes
McLaren_4
0
No votes
Mercedes
24
3%
Mercedes_1
20
3%
Mercedes_2
7
1%
Mercedes_3
1
0%
Mercedes_4
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing
27
4%
Red Bull Racing_1
13
2%
Red Bull Racing_2
4
1%
Red Bull Racing_3
0
No votes
Red Bull Racing_4
0
No votes
Williams
20
3%
Williams_1
11
1%
Williams_2
6
1%
Williams_3
35
5%
Williams_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 738

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by F1Tyrant »

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OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

Siao7
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

Don't worry guys there's a thread for qualifying on the front page. Come and join the fun it's a really exciting time TBH IMHO yes.

A.J.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Mod Aqua »

I think that it's natural that a thread discussing driver abilities is going to involve digging into the abilities, but if you feel it has been derailed, the correct thing to do is to report it - not complain that you think it is being derailed, because that *is* derailing it.

That being said:

Invade wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:00 am
Don't worry guys there's a thread for qualifying on the front page. Come and join the fun it's a really exciting time TBH IMHO yes.
I think anyone wishing to reply to the qualifying prowess can take their comments to the thread that has been bumped (and I will move the qualifying related posts to it):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16042

A.J.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Based on the (admittedly limited) evidence from race 1, I'm feeling pretty comfortable in my choice of ranking Ferrari as #1, followed by RBR and McLaren.

If Vettel continues to be the 2018/19/20 Vettel, then I would push Aston Martin down by a couple of places, behind the Alpha/Alfa teams.

A.J.
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.

TheGiantHogweed
Posts: 3596
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:46 pm
RBR v Merc is interesting. I don't think many people would say Verstappen is BETTER than Hamilton, so presumably it means Perez is considered better than Bottas.

Unless people have factored in the team aspect and consider a VER/PER line up more effective overall than a HAM/BOT line up even if HAM and BOT are stronger individually?

Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.

A.J.
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm


Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).

pokerman
Posts: 37163
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:27 pm


Bottas is probably faster than Perez, as Bottas is one of the best qualifiers on the grid right now. But Bottas also is let down by having a self inflicted dire stint every other race. Perez meanwhile is a decent qualifier who is able to produce top level long run pace. It's more than just his legendary tyre life skills, although that is a big part of it.

You don't get any points for Saturday, and it will be interesting to see how Perez delivers on a Sunday if Mercedes and Red Bull have a similar gap to the midfield as last season.
BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
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A.J.
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm


BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.

Siao7
Posts: 9315
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:01 pm


BiB - While Bottas in my eyes is also a better qualifier than Perez, I wouldn't call him "one of the best" in any way. A lot of it is down to the car being miles ahead of everyone else - and a lot of it is down to Hamilton being massively overrated when it comes to quali pace (again, thanks to having a hugely dominant car for how many ever seasons he's had - easy to rack up poles when you're miles ahead and just need to beat one other guy). Similar to Vettel during the RBR years - he seemed to be the absolute fastest guy in quali for such a long time, pulling out those magic laps at the end almost every single time - but now nobody rates him as one of the best qualifiers overall.

Don't mean to derail the thread into a conversation about Hamilton's qualifying prowess, but I do think the likes of Verstappen/Leclerc will hand Bottas a far more comprehensive beating than he's getting right now in qualifying.

Race pace - agree with you 100%. A Perez who manages to qualify up front would always be a contender for the race win, unlike Bottas who only manages to win when his teammate is having an off day.
While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).
I would also add that, while not a noob exactly, it was Perez's first race with this car, last year was in the pink Mercedes. So while a good recovery race, I can excuse him for finding his steps the first few races. Lets not forget that he only managed 11th in quali, he needs his time to adjust.

TheGiantHogweed
Posts: 3596
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm


While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).
I would also add that, while not a noob exactly, it was Perez's first race with this car, last year was in the pink Mercedes. So while a good recovery race, I can excuse him for finding his steps the first few races. Lets not forget that he only managed 11th in quali, he needs his time to adjust.
I know people will maybe be sick of me bringing up bottas, but I don't really know what perez has as his defence for not making it through to Q3. Bottas has managed to do this every single weekend he's been with Mercedes, which is actually more than Hamilton.

Bottas qualified 3rd and closer to hamilton than Rosberg ever had in the first race of 2017 (Australia and bottas's first in the team). If this is a comparison, then Perez has no excuse for being this far back.

His recovery drive was decent, but was to be expected. Perez is going to have to significantly improve in qualifying if he's to regularly be right up at the top more so than bottas is even if his race pace is considered better. I think Stroll possibly made his qualifying look better than he was. We can't be certain, but it really could hinder him over the season. Especially as Leclerc and other drivers were not far off Bottas.

This along with Verstappen not being as good as Hamilton is why I think mercedes have the stronger line up.

A.J.
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm


BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).
I would also add that, while not a noob exactly, it was Perez's first race with this car, last year was in the pink Mercedes. So while a good recovery race, I can excuse him for finding his steps the first few races. Lets not forget that he only managed 11th in quali, he needs his time to adjust.
I know people will maybe be sick of me bringing up bottas, but I don't really know what perez has as his defence for not making it through to Q3. Bottas has managed to do this every single weekend he's been with Mercedes, which is actually more than Hamilton.

Bottas qualified 3rd and closer to hamilton than Rosberg ever had in the first race of 2017 (Australia and bottas's first in the team). If this is a comparison, then Perez has no excuse for being this far back.

His recovery drive was decent, but was to be expected. Perez is going to have to significantly improve in qualifying if he's to regularly be right up at the top more so than bottas is even if his race pace is considered better. I think Stroll possibly made his qualifying look better than he was. We can't be certain, but it really could hinder him over the season. Especially as Leclerc and other drivers were not far off Bottas.

This along with Verstappen not being as good as Hamilton is why I think mercedes have the stronger line up.
You're right, Perez has no defence - he should have been in Q3 and racing at the front. Keep in mind though that there are some caveats with the limited testing this year - I would give Perez a couple of races before judging him. As I have stated a few times on here, for me Perez's qualifying pace is his major weakness - if he manages to get himself near the front on Saturdays, I expect him to bother the Mercs with his excellent tyre management and race pace.

Siao7
Posts: 9315
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:42 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm

I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).
I would also add that, while not a noob exactly, it was Perez's first race with this car, last year was in the pink Mercedes. So while a good recovery race, I can excuse him for finding his steps the first few races. Lets not forget that he only managed 11th in quali, he needs his time to adjust.
I know people will maybe be sick of me bringing up bottas, but I don't really know what perez has as his defence for not making it through to Q3. Bottas has managed to do this every single weekend he's been with Mercedes, which is actually more than Hamilton.

Bottas qualified 3rd and closer to hamilton than Rosberg ever had in the first race of 2017 (Australia and bottas's first in the team). If this is a comparison, then Perez has no excuse for being this far back.

His recovery drive was decent, but was to be expected. Perez is going to have to significantly improve in qualifying if he's to regularly be right up at the top more so than bottas is even if his race pace is considered better. I think Stroll possibly made his qualifying look better than he was. We can't be certain, but it really could hinder him over the season. Especially as Leclerc and other drivers were not far off Bottas.

This along with Verstappen not being as good as Hamilton is why I think mercedes have the stronger line up.
You're right, Perez has no defence - he should have been in Q3 and racing at the front. Keep in mind though that there are some caveats with the limited testing this year - I would give Perez a couple of races before judging him. As I have stated a few times on here, for me Perez's qualifying pace is his major weakness - if he manages to get himself near the front on Saturdays, I expect him to bother the Mercs with his excellent tyre management and race pace.
Yeah, I agree with this. This is why I mentioned that he didn't make it for Q3, not excusing him exactly.

But I can how in a new car he will need some time to adjust.

A.J.
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:42 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:24 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:28 pm


It's not just Bottas' pace (although he almost always seems to have one bad stint in every race) - it's the fact that he shows no spine or gumption. He was complaining and miserable about the strategy yesterday - how many times have we seen top drivers (Hamilton/Vettel for instance) challenge their team decision on strategy because they wanted to go another way? What would have been the worst case outcome if Bottas had tried an alternate strategy and failed - P3? Exactly what he got anyway.

For me Verstappen and Hamilton are roughly equal (with Verstappen ahead on pace, and hamilton ahead on racing skills). I rank Bottas lower than Perez because he doesn't seem to have any racing nous about him, and just accepts his lot. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong here, but this is the reason why Bottas will never be champion unless he finds himself in a 2009 Brawn-like situation.

Overall best pairing for me is still Ferrari, with Leclerc at an elite level (definitely so if he can cut his first-lap mistakes out), and Sainz being #2 behind Ricciardo in the level below elite. Perez's record against Ocon prevents me from ranking the RBR as #1 (they are at a similar level as Alpine, with Alonso being an elite and Ocon/Perez being roughly equal).
I would also add that, while not a noob exactly, it was Perez's first race with this car, last year was in the pink Mercedes. So while a good recovery race, I can excuse him for finding his steps the first few races. Lets not forget that he only managed 11th in quali, he needs his time to adjust.
I know people will maybe be sick of me bringing up bottas, but I don't really know what perez has as his defence for not making it through to Q3. Bottas has managed to do this every single weekend he's been with Mercedes, which is actually more than Hamilton.

Bottas qualified 3rd and closer to hamilton than Rosberg ever had in the first race of 2017 (Australia and bottas's first in the team). If this is a comparison, then Perez has no excuse for being this far back.

His recovery drive was decent, but was to be expected. Perez is going to have to significantly improve in qualifying if he's to regularly be right up at the top more so than bottas is even if his race pace is considered better. I think Stroll possibly made his qualifying look better than he was. We can't be certain, but it really could hinder him over the season. Especially as Leclerc and other drivers were not far off Bottas.

This along with Verstappen not being as good as Hamilton is why I think mercedes have the stronger line up.
You're right, Perez has no defence - he should have been in Q3 and racing at the front. Keep in mind though that there are some caveats with the limited testing this year - I would give Perez a couple of races before judging him. As I have stated a few times on here, for me Perez's qualifying pace is his major weakness - if he manages to get himself near the front on Saturdays, I expect him to bother the Mercs with his excellent tyre management and race pace.
Yeah, I agree with this. This is why I mentioned that he didn't make it for Q3, not excusing him exactly.

But I can how in a new car he will need some time to adjust.
+1 from me.

For me his form from the Spanish GP on will be what settles this argument - if he continues to struggle, then I will put the Merc team ahead of the RBR. For now I put Ferrari/RBR/McLaren ahead of Mercedes.

pokerman
Posts: 37163
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:13 pm


While Bottas has shown to not challenge Hamilton often, he hasn't only won when hamilton has had an "off day". There was nothing wrong with Hamilton's performance on race day in the USA in 2019 and the same goes for Japan and Baku that year. Hamilton had bad luck/penalties in Austria 2017 which won't have helped, but it wasn't an off day. The days he messed up or was actually having a really bad day when Bottas won was Russia 2017 and Austria last year. Abu Dhabi maybe could be put down to his "underperforming after earning WDC" or something, but that was another race where to me Bottas looked to beat him and win on merit and I don't see why Hamilton wouldn't be trying his best. Other races that Bottas was on target to win until bad luck hit him such as China, Russia 2018 and Emilia Romagna last year, was Hamilton having an off day in all of these? China maybe, but not the other 2.

Bottas doesn't get to Hamilton's impressive level often. But I would say he just occasionally does rather than implying if he's matching or beating him that it must be because Hamilton's having an off day. If Hamilton has had the level of off days that Bottas has looked better than him, then he's had too many to be considered great to the extent he is.

Regarding Perez, his race pace is better than Bottas over the whole race most of the time certainly, but you are sort of concluding things without evidence by saying he would "always" be a contender for the race win if he qualifies up front. We have no evidence yet. I wouldn't be against what you said if you just said it seems likely, but you are stating it like it is guaranteed.
BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:02 pm


BiB - You're exactly right there - and that's one of the reasons why I don't consider him to be that, but it's a topic for another thread.

As for the rest - perhaps I'm being too harsh on Bottas (and I do know you have a soft spot for him), but he's simply way too passive for me to rate him in any manner. Just look yesterday at how he rolls over and plays for second place like a lapdog - there is simply nothing coming from him except the occasional win when he will tell critics such as yours truly what he thinks of them in uncharitable terms.

But I do agree the use of "always" is unjustified - I think it's better to say Perez will be in the frame for wins far more often than Bottas if he manages to qualify up front, imo.
I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm

I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.
There was a slim chance he could have got Verstappen had things gone just slightly differently. Leclerc had an excellent launch which cost Bottas several seconds, but his pace really didn't look much worse than the top 2. he showed this by maintaining a gap. Even when he lost a further 8 to Hamilton, he was still only 15 seconds behind before he pitted for FLAP. If it wasn't for Leclerc at the start and his poor pit stop, he likely will have been within seconds of verstappen. And saying this, had Bottas not had his bad stop, verstappen will have had to change his strategy slightly too which may have hindered him.

So literally, bottas wasn't in the mix, but he could well have been if not for his luck as his pace looked very similar to Hamilton.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Words from Gary Anderson:
"What I really like about Perez’s drive was he just got on with it, passing cars and never getting stuck for long. That’s very different from what we often see from Bottas and I think that could give Red Bull an extra edge in this title fight."
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm

I can accept your view on this. However I don't think yesterday was an example of him showing to be his usual slow self and not really trying. He looked more or less on hamilton's pace the whole race and lost around 4 seconds due to Leclerc getting an excellent launch and then a further 8 in the pit stop. Had he not pitted for FLAP (when he was 15 seconds behind Hamilton) and not lost time at the start, he likely would have been right up with the top two by the end of the race. IMO, Hamilton put in an excellent drive, and Bottas was very solid.

Based on this weekend, Bottas was somewhat better than Perez. Bottas has shown that a recovery drive in a top car can be pretty easy and Perez didn't exactly do better than Botats did when he started last in Abu Dhabi in 2019. Perez arguably should have been 4th.

I can agree Perez may be in a better position for wins than Bottas for wins, but more because I don't think verstappen is quite at Hamilton's level. I think it is fair for some to think Perez is better than Bottas, but I think currently, they are equal at best and overall, I would say Bottas has the slight edge, but we don't have to agree.

I still think hamilton's skill makes Bottas appear a little worse than he is such as yesterday. I still think Mercedes have the best line up.
Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.
In the mix to cause Max to pit earlier than he wanted to in order to defend the undercut, the slow pitstop put paid to that.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:38 pm

Indeed Bottas was clearly better than Perez
One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.
In the mix to cause Max to pit earlier than he wanted to in order to defend the undercut, the slow pitstop put paid to that.
And? He still would have managed to finish only P3 at best - he wasn't in the mix for anything else.

The absolute best he could have done is managed to get Verstappen to pit a couple of laps earlier to cover the undercut threat - while this would have benefited Hamilton, there wasn't anything in it for Bottas. He was never "in the mix" or anything of that sort - from early on it was clear his best result was going to be P3, which is what he got in the end.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Exediron »

Early days, but it's looking like Ferrari didn't get enough recognition here...

We'll see if Sainz can stay this close to Leclerc over a whole season, of course. But I'd say he's exceeded most predictions by a comfortable margin so far.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:49 pm


One swallow does not make a summer - and even in the race Perez's misfortunes denied us an even comparison. The RBR team is overall a stronger team than the Merc (in my opinion), with a question mark over Perez's qualifying. It can be that Bottas comes out ahead of Perez overall, but I think Perez is a much stronger driver in the race than Bottas. His challenge is qualifying in the top 3; if he manages to do that on a regular basis, I think he will end up with a much more successful season than Bottas.
Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.
In the mix to cause Max to pit earlier than he wanted to in order to defend the undercut, the slow pitstop put paid to that.
And? He still would have managed to finish only P3 at best - he wasn't in the mix for anything else.

The absolute best he could have done is managed to get Verstappen to pit a couple of laps earlier to cover the undercut threat - while this would have benefited Hamilton, there wasn't anything in it for Bottas. He was never "in the mix" or anything of that sort - from early on it was clear his best result was going to be P3, which is what he got in the end.
I never said that though, he was just in the mix to try and influence the race at the front, something that Perez has been brought in to do unless you may think he's going to be any kind of threat to Max himself?
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:20 pm
Early days, but it's looking like Ferrari didn't get enough recognition here...

We'll see if Sainz can stay this close to Leclerc over a whole season, of course. But I'd say he's exceeded most predictions by a comfortable margin so far.
Indeed like for like we have to consider that he did better than Perez.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:20 pm
Early days, but it's looking like Ferrari didn't get enough recognition here...

We'll see if Sainz can stay this close to Leclerc over a whole season, of course. But I'd say he's exceeded most predictions by a comfortable margin so far.

*ahem* viewtopic.php?p=838701#p838701

:D

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:24 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:44 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:03 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:49 pm

Well we can only go on one from what we've seen thus far, Perez messed up in qualifying whilst Bottas was in the mix before Mercedes messed up his pitstop.
Yeah but I'm not saying anything otherwise, so not sure what your point is.

Disagree with the BiB though - "in the mix" for what? Bottas was never going to get anything better than P3, pitstop errors or not.
In the mix to cause Max to pit earlier than he wanted to in order to defend the undercut, the slow pitstop put paid to that.
And? He still would have managed to finish only P3 at best - he wasn't in the mix for anything else.

The absolute best he could have done is managed to get Verstappen to pit a couple of laps earlier to cover the undercut threat - while this would have benefited Hamilton, there wasn't anything in it for Bottas. He was never "in the mix" or anything of that sort - from early on it was clear his best result was going to be P3, which is what he got in the end.
I never said that though, he was just in the mix to try and influence the race at the front, something that Perez has been brought in to do unless you may think he's going to be any kind of threat to Max himself?
OK, I get what you mean - he could have slightly influenced the race in front, yes. I am saying no matter what he would have done he would have finished P3 yesterday - I suspect when Perez manages to get himself in P3 in quali he would be a bigger factor in the race than Bottas was yesterday. We just have to wait and see if that prediction comes true or not.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:25 pm
Exediron wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:20 pm
Early days, but it's looking like Ferrari didn't get enough recognition here...

We'll see if Sainz can stay this close to Leclerc over a whole season, of course. But I'd say he's exceeded most predictions by a comfortable margin so far.
Indeed like for like we have to consider that he did better than Perez.
In the Sainz / Perez / Bottas group, Bottas finished closest to his team mate once you take into account his botched pit stop, and the extra pitstop for FL losing around 30-32 seconds total. This would have put him around 6 seconds behind Hamilton.

However, Sainz's performance was more impressive given he was new to the team, and midfield battles are more chaotic. Perez was certainly the most disappointing of the three - but it was an unusual race event. It's impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from this event given it was effectively the second pre season test. We'll have a much better idea by around race 5.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am
Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/
I don't believe it is but that being said what's your opinion, do you think Bottas could have won the race?
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Exediron »

Siao7 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am
Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/
I would say it's not. That probably belongs in either the Valtteri Bottas thread or in a new one. This thread is for evaluating drivers, not their treatment by their respective teams.
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am
Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/
I would say it's not. That probably belongs in either the Valtteri Bottas thread or in a new one. This thread is for evaluating drivers, not their treatment by their respective teams.
You are right, I just couldn't remember which thread we were discussing this, specifically for Bottas. I don't think it was the official Bottas thread

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:20 am
Exediron wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am
Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/
I would say it's not. That probably belongs in either the Valtteri Bottas thread or in a new one. This thread is for evaluating drivers, not their treatment by their respective teams.
You are right, I just couldn't remember which thread we were discussing this, specifically for Bottas. I don't think it was the official Bottas thread
I think it was on the Hamilton/Schumacher thread - started before this post, but was brought back up around here: viewtopic.php?p=838496#p838496

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:45 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:20 am
Exediron wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:49 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:30 am
Is this the thread where we were discussing Bottas's treatment from Merc? This doesn't seem to paint it well:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ottas-off/
I would say it's not. That probably belongs in either the Valtteri Bottas thread or in a new one. This thread is for evaluating drivers, not their treatment by their respective teams.
You are right, I just couldn't remember which thread we were discussing this, specifically for Bottas. I don't think it was the official Bottas thread
I think it was on the Hamilton/Schumacher thread - started before this post, but was brought back up around here: viewtopic.php?p=838496#p838496
Ah yeah, this was the one. Oh well, mea culpa!

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Still not sure why so many seemed to think Red Bull would have a stronger line up than Mercedes. Many are saying now we need to give Perez time. Well, that shows that many shouldn't have instantly assumed he would match or be better than Bottas as he is new to the team and rank red bull as the strongest line up.... That case being factored in does somewhat effect the strength of a driver line up. Horner even went as far as saying they desperately need Perez to be within the window to effect Mercedes's strategy options. At least Bottas even when he's slow can often help hamilton out a bit (though he didn't last time out)

This is even when Bottas has had his worst start of a season. The amusing thing is though that Hamilton has scored the most points in the first 4 races that he ever has before. But Russell hitting Bottas literally saved him here. Imola was a weekend where both Merdedes drivers would have got very poor results had there not been the safety car.

Overall this season, I would say Hamilton and Verstappen have been very closely matched if we factor in Hamilton's big mistake. Bottas has been solid in 2 races, and a bit underwhelming in one and terrible in the other. Perez has had one terrible race and the ones that he was underwhelming in were more related to a poor qualifying which he will need to improve on. But this seems to effect his gap to the leaders more than Bottas being good in qualifying and slow in the race.

I think Hamilton is just edging Verstappen and still is the more complete driver. And Perez will need more time before anyone can say he's doing a better job than Bottas is at Mercedes this year. So as I initially voted, I still think mercedes is the strongest line up.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 12:18 pm
Still not sure why so many seemed to think Red Bull would have a stronger line up than Mercedes. Many are saying now we need to give Perez time. Well, that shows that many shouldn't have instantly assumed he would match or be better than Bottas as he is new to the team and rank red bull as the strongest line up.... That case being factored in does somewhat effect the strength of a driver line up. Horner even went as far as saying they desperately need Perez to be within the window to effect Mercedes's strategy options. At least Bottas even when he's slow can often help hamilton out a bit (though he didn't last time out)

This is even when Bottas has had his worst start of a season. The amusing thing is though that Hamilton has scored the most points in the first 4 races that he ever has before. But Russell hitting Bottas literally saved him here. Imola was a weekend where both Merdedes drivers would have got very poor results had there not been the safety car.

Overall this season, I would say Hamilton and Verstappen have been very closely matched if we factor in Hamilton's big mistake. Bottas has been solid in 2 races, and a bit underwhelming in one and terrible in the other. Perez has had one terrible race and the ones that he was underwhelming in were more related to a poor qualifying which he will need to improve on. But this seems to effect his gap to the leaders more than Bottas being good in qualifying and slow in the race.

I think Hamilton is just edging Verstappen and still is the more complete driver. And Perez will need more time before anyone can say he's doing a better job than Bottas is at Mercedes this year. So as I initially voted, I still think mercedes is the strongest line up.
I assumed the question was asking what the best driver pairing was for the season, not just the first couple of races?

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

It hasn't just been a couple though, and the first few races should be factored in. Gieven we were saying who HAS the strongest line up and now who WILL HAVE.

But like you imply, it is a bit early to confirm everything. By the 4th race in 2017, Lauda interestingly said Bottas was already a step up from Rosberg. But Bottas didn't get any better from then. Or possibly a little worse. Perez still could well improve.

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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:51 pm
It hasn't just been a couple though, and the first few races should be factored in. Gieven we were saying who HAS the strongest line up and now who WILL HAVE.

But like you imply, it is a bit early to confirm everything. By the 4th race in 2017, Lauda interestingly said Bottas was already a step up from Rosberg. But Bottas didn't get any better from then. Or possibly a little worse. Perez still could well improve.
I don't know about anyone else but when casting my votes I was making a judgement on how good the drivers would be over the season. Obviously I expected that the drivers moving teams would be comparatively weaker in the first few races.

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Invade
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by Invade »

On season form so far it's probably Mercedes or Ferrari.

TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Which team has the best driver pairing?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Invade wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:32 pm
On season form so far it's probably Mercedes or Ferrari.
Leclerc has probably been very close to Verstappen and hamilton yes. Sainz looked solid in the first weekend but a bit underwhelming in the others. But you still could say his season has been better than Perez and maybe Bottas to. Ferrari probably have had their driver pairing perform 2nd best after Mercedes though.

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