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Note from Moderation Team - the posts in this topic originally started in the The Official Sir Lewis Hamilton Thread - so some of the early posts may refer to some discussion in there. I tried to split the thread at a point where the discussion had fully diverged. -Mod Aqua

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm

Also worth noting that when we did see him in slightly weaker cars pre 2014 he was very good but I wouldn't say operating at GOAT level.

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98. That’s the main reason why I will always lean towards Schumacher in that debate. I put more weight on performances without the best car.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Verstappen 2019-2020 is easily as good as Hamilton was from 2009-2013.

He's had a strange career. Schumacher seemed fully formed at 25 or so and didn't really develop much if at all past that point. And from 33 on you were just watching as little signs of senility (in a driverly sense, not a 'life' sense) crept into his performance, without the emergence of any compensating qualities. Hamilton didn't completely come together till around 32, though he had had great seasons before then (maybe if he had left McLaren earlier it could have accelerated the process of his growth). But since that point, he's somehow continually developed in a way that may be without example in F1 history. Senna was still developing up through 1991, Prost through '85, Vettel maybe stopped by 2012 or 2011. But this late-career exfoliation of Hamilton's competitive resources is worthy of study. For almost all drivers, including the greats, aging has appeared to be a largely subtractive process, but not for him; and this makes him seem more like a contemporary of the younger guys on the grid than any of the other drivers past 30.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm

Also worth noting that when we did see him in slightly weaker cars pre 2014 he was very good but I wouldn't say operating at GOAT level.

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98. That’s the main reason why I will always lean towards Schumacher in that debate. I put more weight on performances without the best car.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Verstappen 2019-2020 is easily as good as Hamilton was from 2009-2013.

Schumacher certainly didn't have a 2011 season but one thing I would question is the level of opposition he was up against.

breathemyexhaust wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:09 am

He's had a strange career. Schumacher seemed fully formed at 25 or so and didn't really develop much if at all past that point. And from 33 on you were just watching as little signs of senility (in a driverly sense, not a 'life' sense) crept into his performance, without the emergence of any compensating qualities. Hamilton didn't completely come together till around 32, though he had had great seasons before then (maybe if he had left McLaren earlier it could have accelerated the process of his growth). But since that point, he's somehow continually developed in a way that may be without example in F1 history. Senna was still developing up through 1991, Prost through '85, Vettel maybe stopped by 2012 or 2011. But this late-career exfoliation of Hamilton's competitive resources is worthy of study. For almost all drivers, including the greats, aging has appeared to be a largely subtractive process, but not for him; and this makes him seem more like a contemporary of the younger guys on the grid than any of the other drivers past 30.

I think this can be explained to a degree by Hamilton's lack of effort put in as compared with the likes of Schumacher and Vettel who were and are very hard working, Hamilton is now putting that level of effort in and is why we see him getting stronger in the second half of his F1 career.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm

Also worth noting that when we did see him in slightly weaker cars pre 2014 he was very good but I wouldn't say operating at GOAT level.

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98. That’s the main reason why I will always lean towards Schumacher in that debate. I put more weight on performances without the best car.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Verstappen 2019-2020 is easily as good as Hamilton was from 2009-2013.

It wasn't even close tbh - Schumacher was challenging for the title regularly in a car that was getting outqualified (sometimes by a whole second!). The only performance from a recent driver that comes close in my view is Alonso's 2012 season - that Ferrari had no right to be in the title fight, and to think he might have won the whole thing if not for Romain Grosjean at Spa.

Hamilton has been good with weaker cars, but not one season of his (post his debut) stands out as really remarkable prior to jumping into the Merc.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

Say what you will, but I think Schumacher's sheer talent made the grid look more ordinary than it seems. Jarno Trulli would be a multiple race winner in any era (think of him qualifying in that Merc or RBR on pole) - heck, he even beat Alonso as a team-mate (while being the clear number 2 driver in Briatore's team). I think HHF/Trulli/Hakkinen are easily as good as (if not better) than most drivers Hamilton faced, except perhaps Alonso. Schumacher was in the title fight with a car that frequently got outqualified by 05.1 second - he had absolutely no business being there. And as you said, there is no way a prime Schumacher is getting beaten by Button/Trulli the way Hamilton/Alonso were.

Schumacher in Malaysia 1999 is a prime example of a driver who makes everyone else look completely ridiculous - absolutely untouchable, and that too after coming back from injury. There has hardly ever been such a performance from Hamilton where he's been in such imperious form after Silverstone 2008.

Maybe we should take this conversation to another thread, not the official thread of a driver?

Don't want to sound like a party pooper, but I think it would be wiser.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, but I don't actually think Vettel is any better than Button.

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:00 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm

Also worth noting that when we did see him in slightly weaker cars pre 2014 he was very good but I wouldn't say operating at GOAT level.

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98. That’s the main reason why I will always lean towards Schumacher in that debate. I put more weight on performances without the best car.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Verstappen 2019-2020 is easily as good as Hamilton was from 2009-2013.

It wasn't even close tbh - Schumacher was challenging for the title regularly in a car that was getting outqualified (sometimes by a whole second!). The only performance from a recent driver that comes close in my view is Alonso's 2012 season - that Ferrari had no right to be in the title fight, and to think he might have won the whole thing if not for Romain Grosjean at Spa.

Hamilton has been good with weaker cars, but not one season of his (post his debut) stands out as really remarkable prior to jumping into the Merc.

I'm not sure what that metric proves, Hamilton challenged for the title in 2010 but twice the McLaren was out qualified by a second, twice by over 9 tenths.

A.J. wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:07 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

Say what you will, but I think Schumacher's sheer talent made the grid look more ordinary than it seems. Jarno Trulli would be a multiple race winner in any era (think of him qualifying in that Merc or RBR on pole) - heck, he even beat Alonso as a team-mate (while being the clear number 2 driver in Briatore's team). I think HHF/Trulli/Hakkinen are easily as good as (if not better) than most drivers Hamilton faced, except perhaps Alonso. Schumacher was in the title fight with a car that frequently got outqualified by 05.1 second - he had absolutely no business being there. And as you said, there is no way a prime Schumacher is getting beaten by Button/Trulli the way Hamilton/Alonso were.

Schumacher in Malaysia 1999 is a prime example of a driver who makes everyone else look completely ridiculous - absolutely untouchable, and that too after coming back from injury. There has hardly ever been such a performance from Hamilton where he's been in such imperious form after Silverstone 2008.

Trulli got out qualified by Heikki Kovalainen, that driver that got destroyed by Hamilton in both years he was at McLaren, one reason I guess why Heikki is seen so high up on F1 metrix fastest F1 drivers list.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:32 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, but I don't actually think Vettel is any better than Button.

That’s not controversial, I’d agree with that.

Badgers control the worlds media, now that’s a controversial opinion.

Banana Man wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:34 pm

Exediron wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:32 pm

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, but I don't actually think Vettel is any better than Button.

That’s not controversial, I’d agree with that.

Badgers control the worlds media, now that’s a controversial opinion.

That would only be controversial because we live in a day and age where someone would decide to believe it. Blatant falsehoods shouldn't be controversial...

Exediron wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:32 pm

I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, but I don't actually think Vettel is any better than Button.

I rate Vettel higher for two reasons: he was a superior qualifier to Button and he was more consistently quicker in races.

Button had many weekends at McLaren where he was at sea, Vettel had far fewer aside from 2014 and 2020 (although Barrichello beat Button in an awful Honda in 2008).

It's not clear cut but Vettel has a narrow edge.

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

I think you're probably right that a prime Schumacher could have contended for the championship in 2011. Hamilton left a lot on the table in that season and actually was graced with a more competitive car relative to the front-runners than he had in 2010.

Conversely, I think a prime or same age Hamilton clinches the 2003 championship before Suzuka.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

To an extent I think the excuses for Schumacher help to cover up how much F1 had changed when he came back, stronger drivers, no bespoke tyres, no in season testing or pre-conditioned #2 drivers for him, rubbish tyres which he somehow would have got on top of despite the fact the latter version of Schumacher struggled with and hated the tyres all to overcome a 4 tenths car advantage to Vettel.

I wouldn't question that Schumacher would have done better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, just these super human efforts he would have put in against more modern drivers because he did it with a past generation, a generation I never rated that much.

We can say that Alonso did similar in 2010 and 2012 so why not Schumacher but these were mistake riddled seasons from Vettel thrown in with some reliability issues, in 2011 Vettel was rock solid and had a reliable car.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:44 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

To an extent I think the excuses for Schumacher help to cover up how much F1 had changed when he came back, stronger drivers, no bespoke tyres, no in season testing or pre-conditioned #2 drivers for him, rubbish tyres which he somehow would have got on top of despite the fact the latter version of Schumacher struggled with and hated the tyres all to overcome a 4 tenths car advantage to Vettel.

I wouldn't question that Schumacher would have done better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, just these super human efforts he would have put in against more modern drivers because he did it with a past generation, a generation I never rated that much.

We can say that Alonso did similar in 2010 and 2012 so why not Schumacher but these were mistake riddled seasons from Vettel thrown in with some reliability issues, in 2011 Vettel was rock solid and had a reliable car.

I think we know by now that an under pressure Vettel ain't so solid.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:17 pm

I think we know by now that an under pressure Vettel ain't so solid.

Except those two times to clinch the 2010 and 2012 titles. I feel Vettel's wilting in 2017 and 2018 has become a meme now. The guy can drive under pressure.

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

One may argue the same for prime Hamilton. I think we can all agree that 2011 was not his prime!

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:57 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

One may argue the same for prime Hamilton. I think we can all agree that 2011 was not his prime!

The problem I have with Hamilton is that when he was up against a dominant team (2009-2013) he simply did not operate at GOAT level.

Schumacher drove at GOAT level even when he was up against dominant Newey machinery. Hamilton did not do the same when he had the opportunity to do so.

That’s why I will always rate Schumacher above Hamilton. I admit that some people will disagree with that opinion and that’s fine, but in my eyes Schumacher simply knew how to do more with less

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:01 pm

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:57 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

One may argue the same for prime Hamilton. I think we can all agree that 2011 was not his prime!

The problem I have with Hamilton is that when he was up against a dominant team (2009-2013) he simply did not operate at GOAT level.

Schumacher drove at GOAT level even when he was up against dominant Newey machinery. Hamilton did not do the same when he had the opportunity to do so.

That’s why I will always rate Schumacher above Hamilton. I admit that some people will disagree with that opinion and that’s fine, but in my eyes Schumacher simply knew how to do more with less

That's a good point. Schumacher was quite relentless back in the day. Hamilton has been more this way in the last three / four years. 2011 may well have been a lot closer with a 2018-20 Hamilton, as opposed to a 2011 Hamilton!

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:31 am

I don’t think that Hamilton 2009-2013 was as good as Schumacher 1996-98.

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

breathemyexhaust wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:38 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

I think you're probably right that a prime Schumacher could have contended for the championship in 2011. Hamilton left a lot on the table in that season and actually was graced with a more competitive car relative to the front-runners than he had in 2010.

Conversely, I think a prime or same age Hamilton clinches the 2003 championship before Suzuka.

I fully agree to the last sentence.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:27 pm

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

Funny that you mention Button and Barrichello.

The fact that Button vs Barrichello was reasonably competitive despite Rubens being past his prime does not exactly reflect that well on Hamilton, who lost to Button on merit in 2011.

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

Out of curiosity, since I haven't done the numbers myself, what does it say?

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:27 pm

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

Funny that you mention Button and Barrichello.

The fact that Button vs Barrichello was reasonably competitive despite Rubens being past his prime does not exactly reflect that well on Hamilton, who lost to Button on merit in 2011.

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

Is that period reflective of prime Hamilton though? Otherwise one may make a case for 2010-12 for non-prime Schumacher (v Rosberg) vs non-prime Hamilton and use a 2013-15 Hamilton-Rosberg comparison. That is also flawed in my opinion.
It's always going to be subjective, who is the better. My personal view is inclined towards Hamilton but it's easy to bias towards Schumacher.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

I also find it hilarious that you indulge in this piece of revisionism to try to shore up your point. I don't even vehemently disagree that Schmacher may have been the faster driver in his prime.

Button vs Barrichello
Qualifying: 34-36
Races: 34-21
Points: 160-118

Button's margin over Barrichello on Sunday is bigger in percentage terms than Hamilton's (27-20) or Alonso's (14-9) advantage over Button on Sundays.

The very fact that Button could go toe to toe with Hamilton and Alonso and beat them over a season once is a massive boon for Button's abilities. I won't allow Button's 2008 season in a terrible Honda to be used to cast shade on two all time greats.

I think Prime Schumacher and Prime Hamilton would be very closely matched in pace and I'd give Hamilton the edge in qualifying and Schumacher the edge in the race.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:27 pm

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

Funny that you mention Button and Barrichello.

The fact that Button vs Barrichello was reasonably competitive despite Rubens being past his prime does not exactly reflect that well on Hamilton, who lost to Button on merit in 2011.

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

First of all, I am happy that you agree with the rest of my post.

My remembrance of Hamilton vs. Button at McLaren is that, in total, Hamilton was more often beating Button than vice versa. Furthermore, even in the one season where he lost on points, Hamilton was clearly the faster driver.
But please show me the numbers if I remember this wrong.

The point I was making in my comment, does not rest upon that anyway.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:17 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:44 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

To an extent I think the excuses for Schumacher help to cover up how much F1 had changed when he came back, stronger drivers, no bespoke tyres, no in season testing or pre-conditioned #2 drivers for him, rubbish tyres which he somehow would have got on top of despite the fact the latter version of Schumacher struggled with and hated the tyres all to overcome a 4 tenths car advantage to Vettel.

I wouldn't question that Schumacher would have done better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013, just these super human efforts he would have put in against more modern drivers because he did it with a past generation, a generation I never rated that much.

We can say that Alonso did similar in 2010 and 2012 so why not Schumacher but these were mistake riddled seasons from Vettel thrown in with some reliability issues, in 2011 Vettel was rock solid and had a reliable car.

I think we know by now that an under pressure Vettel ain't so solid.

He's solid if he's in the fastest car, bags pole and nails the start, he also clearly didn't make as many driving errors in what I'm going to call it as easier cars to drive, lighter with engines that were a bit gutless lacking in torque.

As we see pointed out Schumacher himself wasn't always a paragon of solidarity he made a bit of a pigs meal of the 2003 season and didn't he once crashed out of a race on the formation lap?

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:45 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:17 pm

I think we know by now that an under pressure Vettel ain't so solid.

Except those two times to clinch the 2010 and 2012 titles. I feel Vettel's wilting in 2017 and 2018 has become a meme now. The guy can drive under pressure.

Indeed and in the title deciding final race of 1998 didn't Schumacher blow the start and basically gift the win and title to Hakkinen unless my memory is playing me up.

Just checked he stalled his car on the grid from pole position, that sounds like cracking under pressure to me.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

You don't actually know that and can't credit Schumacher with everything that Hamilton and Button managed to achieve, Kimi nearly managed to beat Schumacher in 2003 with a year old car.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:01 pm

tootsie323 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:57 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:53 pm

Prime Schumacher in the MP4-26 would have put Vettel under enough pressure that he likely would have cracked.

The MP4-26 won 6 races and easily could have won a few more.

In the hands of peak Schumacher (1996-1998), that’s title contending machinery.

One may argue the same for prime Hamilton. I think we can all agree that 2011 was not his prime!

The problem I have with Hamilton is that when he was up against a dominant team (2009-2013) he simply did not operate at GOAT level.

Schumacher drove at GOAT level even when he was up against dominant Newey machinery. Hamilton did not do the same when he had the opportunity to do so.

That’s why I will always rate Schumacher above Hamilton. I admit that some people will disagree with that opinion and that’s fine, but in my eyes Schumacher simply knew how to do more with less

He didn't operate at the same level as Schumacher but I would still question the level of competition that Schumacher had and he was protected within his team in respect to the teammates that were chosen and how his teammates could race against him, Hamilton had the likes of Button and Rosberg to contend with.

How did Schumacher's GOAT level do for him against Alonso in 2006, Alonso a driver that Hamilton had to compete against and another driver who had a teammate who was there just to serve him whilst again Hamilton had the I'm not a #2 driver Button to deal with, having your own bespoke strategy helps a lot how much better does Hamilton's season become in 2010 with Massa as his teammate, as it was he was just a failed front rim away from winning the title in what was seen as marginally the 3rd best car.

Some of Hamilton's McLaren years you seem to easily dismiss, in 2009 he started out in a backmarker car, in the second half of the season he out scored every other driver. In 2010 he made fewer mistakes than either Vettel or Alonso, I think he was the best driver that year, from 2007-2010 I had Hamilton as being the best driver.

However having said all that I wouldn't disagree that Schumacher was better than Hamilton during his McLaren years, it's something I've brought up recently that his work level just wasn't good enough when you compare it to the likes of a Schumacher, that being said you put him up against Schumacher and provided Schumacher isn't given his normal privileges then he's given a hard time by Hamilton like Alonso found in 2007.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:27 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

F1Tyrant wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

To echo pokerman's point:

Schumacher competition 1996-1998: Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve, Mika Hakkinen, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, David Coulthard

Hamilton's competition 2009-2013: Jenson Button, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen

Most of Schumacher's contemporaries were slightly below the level of Button, while Hamilton competed against Alonso and Vettel as well.

I don't see Schumacher doing that much better than Hamilton in a McLaren although he would likely have finished ahead of Jenson in 2011.

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

Well don't expect excuses not to be a bit one sided, Hakkinen clearly received far more brain damage and he was minutes away from dying if medical help had not been so prompt, I don't believe that was the case for Schumacher.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 pm

Paolo_Lasardi wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:27 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:14 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:43 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:03 am

I think Schumacher would have done clearly better than Hamilton in 2011 and 2013.

In 2011 in particular, I think that prime Michael would have challenged for the WDC. The RB7 was no more dominant than the MP4/13, and Vettel similar to Hakkinen.

I would question how Schumacher would have being able to do his hard charging drives in 2011 on the cheesiest of Pirelli tyres, but wait Schumacher was racing in 2011 and he hated the tyres yet would have mounted a title challenge in a much inferior car and on basically unraceable tyres.

Clearly done better than Hamilton joining a new team in 2013 against the incumbent driver Rosberg, Hamilton actually edged the match up, how did Schumacher actually do against Rosberg when both him and Rosberg were new to Mercedes.

Nice to see you resort to using Schumacher’s second career against him. He was in his 40s and suffered a very serious injury in 2009 that left him with neurological damage and permanent neck damage.

Anyway, the RB7 was not a more dominant car than the MP4-13 and Vettel is not better than Hakkinen, so yeah, a proper title challenge was definitely possible.

If Hamilton mounted a proper title challenge in 2011, his entire period from 2009-2013 would look a lot better in my eyes.

When you mention Schumacher's neurological damage, why do you remain silent on Hakkinen's? Without Adelaide, Schumacher would have a much more relentless opposition.

Hamilton fought significant more competitive teammates. Alonso, Rosberg, arguably Button are all better than Schumacher's teammates. Bottas is sort of similar to Barrichello and ahead of Massa and Irvine as well.

Well don't expect excuses not to be a bit one sided, Hakkinen clearly received far more brain damage and he was minutes away from dying if medical help had not been so prompt, I don't believe that was the case for Schumacher.

Speaking as someone with a reasonable degree of medical knowledge this is about the poorest most nonsensical defence of Hamilton you've ever come up with. And that is saying something.

It's even more ludicrous that you feel the need to do it with something so far removed from Hamilton.

Actually take a step back and look at what you're trying to say here.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:28 am

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am

Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton is probably the best cross comparison we have between prime Schumacher and Hamilton, and it points to Schumacher as the superior driver.

Out of curiosity, since I haven't done the numbers myself, what does it say?

Hamilton > Button by 0.274%
Schumacher > Rubens by 0.446%
Rubens = Button (almost dead even in qualifying)

Therefore Schumacher > Hamilton by 0.172%

Hamilton > Bottas by 0.180%
Bottas > Massa by 0.182%
Schumacher > Massa by 0.460%

Therefore Schumacher > Hamilton by 0.098%

Hakkinen's damage in terms of his racing ability is unknown and being close to death doesn't mean he wasn't fully recovered as a racing driver - see Massa who insists he was fine afterwards, as does Rob Smedley. But Schumacher's damage from his 2009 accident is known: https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/2 ... irms-medic

It was a permanent injury. That and being a month short of 44 by the time he retired.

But I agree that Formula Cheese Tyres would have prevented us from seeing the best of prime anybody. I remember thinking at the time that the Sennas and Montoyas would have been completely under the radar under these tyre rules.

On Hamilton, we never got to see the complete article until he was from 32 onwards from 2017. He was 26 in 2011 and Schumacher was his prime self at that age in 1995 and from about the ages of 25-35. That's a longer operating window than Hamilton and if I was a team principle who had to pick one to drive for me for 10 years from 25-35, Schumacher is the obvious pick, let alone his team building capabilities. His worst season was 2003 and that was still at least as good as Hamilton's 2011,2013 and 2016.

On Rubens, I'm glad to see other people recognising that he was every bit the same tier as Button, Alonso, Kimi and Montoya. The fact he was beaten by Schumacher made them both look slower than they really were, like Kubica/Heidfeld and Bottas/Hamilton.

And about Schumacher's other "unfair advantages":

1) Unlimited testing - EVERYONE had unlimited testing, some teams diverted their resources elsewhere under the same rules and there was nothing stopping McLaren from hiring/buying a local test track and undertaking testing programmes. The reason they didn't need to is primarily because of 2...

2) Bespoke tyres - while it was clever politicking from Ferrari to get Bridgestone to give them bespoke tyres, it was a strategy that backfired and you could see it backfiring from as early as 2002 when Montoya kept getting pole, and it got worse as the years went on. There was a mass exodus of teams to Michelin and the combined testing mileage of Michelin was much larger than that of Bridgestone. Ferrari and Schumacher did NOT have a testing advantage over the competition, they had a disadvantage. Aero testing was mainly done in wind tunnels, track testing for aero was mainly for installation and refinements. Testing was most useful for tyres.

By 2006 after Bridgestone were crushed in 2005, Jean Todt was campaigning for teams to rejoin Bridgestone - by which time Alonso too had bespoke Michelin tyres - much more highly tested Michelin tyres.