Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:10 am
Invade wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 am
... I really have no idea what Hamilton would have achieved in Schumacher's block. He might not have even become Champion. There's no guarantee that Schumacher would have found equal opportunity in Hamilton's block or that he ends up with the most dominant team. We assume they were talented enough to thrive in most eras, but there are levels to success and all we have is the one instance of either achieving what they did. Run their careers again even in their own time and they might win a lot less than what we know (or indeed more)...
This is an interesting aspect, and alludes to a point I made in another thread in Hamilton refusing to follow team protocol in Hungary qualifying 2007 (and the resultant fallout). His determination to make a statement may well have been the catalyst for the career he has had.
Imagine that he had agreed to play second-fiddle to Alonso that year. Presumably there would not have been the fallout there was and Alonso would have collected his third WDC. Would Alonso himself, as a result, gone on to have the success that Hamilton has had? And, having beaten Schumacher in his own era, would he be considered the undisputed GOAT?
I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but am interested.
I think if Hamilton had not stood up to Alonso in 2007 then it's unlikely he would have done in 2008 either, then with Alonso we would have been looking at 4 titles in a row with obvious talk of GOAT status coming with it.

I would say that Hamilton very much derailed Alonso's career and in doing so helped to establish his own career.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:18 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:10 am
Invade wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 am
... I really have no idea what Hamilton would have achieved in Schumacher's block. He might not have even become Champion. There's no guarantee that Schumacher would have found equal opportunity in Hamilton's block or that he ends up with the most dominant team. We assume they were talented enough to thrive in most eras, but there are levels to success and all we have is the one instance of either achieving what they did. Run their careers again even in their own time and they might win a lot less than what we know (or indeed more)...
This is an interesting aspect, and alludes to a point I made in another thread in Hamilton refusing to follow team protocol in Hungary qualifying 2007 (and the resultant fallout). His determination to make a statement may well have been the catalyst for the career he has had.
Imagine that he had agreed to play second-fiddle to Alonso that year. Presumably there would not have been the fallout there was and Alonso would have collected his third WDC. Would Alonso himself, as a result, gone on to have the success that Hamilton has had? And, having beaten Schumacher in his own era, would he be considered the undisputed GOAT?
I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but am interested.
Alonso would not have left at the end of '07 either. So (possibly) no WDC for Hamilton in '08. Interesting "what if" scenario. But I also believe that cream rises to the top, Hamilton is a quality driver that would have shown his medal (is this how you write it?), probably a bit later, but surely it would happen. Thinking about it, he may have been bored to be in Alonso's team and moved to RB, potentially he would have been the 2010+ WDC multi-champion. God knows
Well Hamilton signed a 5 year contract with McLaren near the end of 2007 if he does that again then that blocks him from joining Red Bull, as it happened he had to wait until that contract ended before he was able to leave McLaren.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:40 am
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:37 am
That's what I mentioned above, but in 2007-08 it was obvious he'd ignore RB; Macca have been sponsoring him since his first steps in motor racing, I doubt that he'd turn his back on them after his first year there. 2009-2010 would be more realistic, after seeing that he was treated as a Nr2 and having learned a lot from Nando. Possibly
For someone as competitive as Hamilton, letting Alonso past for multiple wins and two championship bids would destroy his relationship with Dennis and McLaren almost immediately.
Well that's basically what happened in 2007 at Monaco and Hungary, despite being on a 1 year contract he drew a line in the sand.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Invade wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:01 am
I think it is a very interesting take from myattitude actually - certainly not fantasy in any way. Schumacher revolutionized many aspects of the sport, the likes of which very few others have been able to achieve. Senna before him started with the importance of fitness, and Schumacher took it to another level. There was also a fascinating anecdote from early on in his career, where he wanted a tachometer to be added to the Benetton dashboard, so he could use real-time data to optimize and maximize his corner speed - this is but one example of how Schumacher simply changed the game. Something his detractors seem to completely ignore or minimize.

I feel the next revolution might come from the current or next generation of drivers who might take sim-racing as a platform to refine their driving - although who knows really. if it were obvious to everyone they would already be doing it.

When one starts going beyond what athletes achieved in their own time, we're getting fanciful. Transposing entire career blocks, however, is really taking a leap. I really have no idea what Hamilton would have achieved in Schumacher's block. He might not have even become Champion. There's no guarantee that Schumacher would have found equal opportunity in Hamilton's block or that he ends up with the most dominant team. We assume they were talented enough to thrive in most eras, but there are levels to success and all we have is the one instance of either achieving what they did. Run their careers again even in their own time and they might win a lot less than what we know (or indeed more).

We've spoken before on where the next revolution may come from and I agree it probably has something to do with the integration of what can be learned from simulation, especially as sims continue to advance. But there's a time and a place for such revolutions and not every period in the history of a sport or a science or an art actually lends a platform for such a breakthrough. Timing is important and the less fanciful notion of suggesting that people are a product of their era feels more secure here.

Schumacher's pioneering is kinda obvious — get fitter, increase options for data and feedback. Not obvious in the sense that it wasn't impressive, otherwise why wouldn't everyone push on with that sort of vision and ambition? But obvious in the sense that it's a gap which was likely to present itself intuitively, hence the parallel global evolution of professionalism along the same lines across pretty much all major sports through the 1990s and 2000s. That's all taken care of and has come on leaps and bounds in the general sense up till now. Sports in general undergoes a parallelism of evolution, and across the board professionalism is far higher now than it was even a couple of decades ago. So now we're sat in 2021, and in the current time and era one wonders: where can another revolution come from? Because I don't see any obvious, intuitive 'gap' in the model to exploit, with the only thing I can see being skill integration spanning multiple disciplines.

Right now I just don't have the vision or foresight to see a space for the next Michael Jackson, the next Albert Einstein or the next Michael Schumacher. The music market is too saturated and fragmented; the obvious areas of improvement are fairly maximised as far as we can tell across many sports; and the more profound models for understanding the workings of the world seem to be quite well accounted for in the realm of science.
There are a couple of things here that stand out for me - while we have no way of knowing how they would perform in a different era, the core personality of Schumacher makes a difference here for me. Schumacher's success is built on his work ethic, determination, hard work, and team skills - the only areas where I feel Hamilton matches him here is in determination, possibly hard work - for the other 2 there is daylight between them, even today (just read the comments from the Merc crew about Hamilton being like a mercenary when he joined the Merc (ha!) team - and this was in his 7th year in the sport). This leads me to a reasonable conclusion that Schumacher would be successful in any era - he pushed the boundaries in everything, which sometimes was also his undoing as has been previously discussed. Hamilton's raw talent would most likely also ensure he's successful, but I feel he's less in charge of his own fate as compared to Schumacher. In other words, luck and timing play a bigger role in Hamilton's success as compared to Schumacher's - and that is a critical point of differentiation for me.
Schumacher's pioneering is kinda obvious — get fitter, increase options for data and feedback.
Well it is obvious in hindsight - but as I said, if it were obvious at the time then everyone would be doing it. Everyone wasn't - Schumacher set the template for it, created the benchmark for others to follow.

As for the rest of your thoughts - I agree that in everything at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in, so the advancements might not always be as dramatic as they can be earlier in the exercise. However, I don't subscribe to the thought that we have reached or are close to reaching a saturation point when it comes to "models for understanding the workings of the world in the realm of science" - to me this sounds like a fancier way of saying "everything that can be invented already has been". I think there are going to be multiple advancements coming (not always at a constant rate) which will push the boundaries further than we can imagine today. Without making it sound like sci-fi, could you imagine groundbreaking use of technology to create a better driver? Think of something as simple as Tiger Woods' eye surgery to improve his vision beyond normal human capability - what if the driver of the future is able to use scientific advancements in bionics to improve reaction times/spatial awareness/strength/other important metrics? It might even happen in our lifetimes.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Invade »

A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:35 pm
Invade wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:01 am
I think it is a very interesting take from myattitude actually - certainly not fantasy in any way. Schumacher revolutionized many aspects of the sport, the likes of which very few others have been able to achieve. Senna before him started with the importance of fitness, and Schumacher took it to another level. There was also a fascinating anecdote from early on in his career, where he wanted a tachometer to be added to the Benetton dashboard, so he could use real-time data to optimize and maximize his corner speed - this is but one example of how Schumacher simply changed the game. Something his detractors seem to completely ignore or minimize.

I feel the next revolution might come from the current or next generation of drivers who might take sim-racing as a platform to refine their driving - although who knows really. if it were obvious to everyone they would already be doing it.

When one starts going beyond what athletes achieved in their own time, we're getting fanciful. Transposing entire career blocks, however, is really taking a leap. I really have no idea what Hamilton would have achieved in Schumacher's block. He might not have even become Champion. There's no guarantee that Schumacher would have found equal opportunity in Hamilton's block or that he ends up with the most dominant team. We assume they were talented enough to thrive in most eras, but there are levels to success and all we have is the one instance of either achieving what they did. Run their careers again even in their own time and they might win a lot less than what we know (or indeed more).

We've spoken before on where the next revolution may come from and I agree it probably has something to do with the integration of what can be learned from simulation, especially as sims continue to advance. But there's a time and a place for such revolutions and not every period in the history of a sport or a science or an art actually lends a platform for such a breakthrough. Timing is important and the less fanciful notion of suggesting that people are a product of their era feels more secure here.

Schumacher's pioneering is kinda obvious — get fitter, increase options for data and feedback. Not obvious in the sense that it wasn't impressive, otherwise why wouldn't everyone push on with that sort of vision and ambition? But obvious in the sense that it's a gap which was likely to present itself intuitively, hence the parallel global evolution of professionalism along the same lines across pretty much all major sports through the 1990s and 2000s. That's all taken care of and has come on leaps and bounds in the general sense up till now. Sports in general undergoes a parallelism of evolution, and across the board professionalism is far higher now than it was even a couple of decades ago. So now we're sat in 2021, and in the current time and era one wonders: where can another revolution come from? Because I don't see any obvious, intuitive 'gap' in the model to exploit, with the only thing I can see being skill integration spanning multiple disciplines.

Right now I just don't have the vision or foresight to see a space for the next Michael Jackson, the next Albert Einstein or the next Michael Schumacher. The music market is too saturated and fragmented; the obvious areas of improvement are fairly maximised as far as we can tell across many sports; and the more profound models for understanding the workings of the world seem to be quite well accounted for in the realm of science.
There are a couple of things here that stand out for me - while we have no way of knowing how they would perform in a different era, the core personality of Schumacher makes a difference here for me. Schumacher's success is built on his work ethic, determination, hard work, and team skills - the only areas where I feel Hamilton matches him here is in determination, possibly hard work - for the other 2 there is daylight between them, even today (just read the comments from the Merc crew about Hamilton being like a mercenary when he joined the Merc (ha!) team - and this was in his 7th year in the sport). This leads me to a reasonable conclusion that Schumacher would be successful in any era - he pushed the boundaries in everything, which sometimes was also his undoing as has been previously discussed. Hamilton's raw talent would most likely also ensure he's successful, but I feel he's less in charge of his own fate as compared to Schumacher. In other words, luck and timing play a bigger role in Hamilton's success as compared to Schumacher's - and that is a critical point of differentiation for me.
Schumacher's pioneering is kinda obvious — get fitter, increase options for data and feedback.
Well it is obvious in hindsight - but as I said, if it were obvious at the time then everyone would be doing it. Everyone wasn't - Schumacher set the template for it, created the benchmark for others to follow.

As for the rest of your thoughts - I agree that in everything at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in, so the advancements might not always be as dramatic as they can be earlier in the exercise. However, I don't subscribe to the thought that we have reached or are close to reaching a saturation point when it comes to "models for understanding the workings of the world in the realm of science" - to me this sounds like a fancier way of saying "everything that can be invented already has been". I think there are going to be multiple advancements coming (not always at a constant rate) which will push the boundaries further than we can imagine today. Without making it sound like sci-fi, could you imagine groundbreaking use of technology to create a better driver? Think of something as simple as Tiger Woods' eye surgery to improve his vision beyond normal human capability - what if the driver of the future is able to use scientific advancements in bionics to improve reaction times/spatial awareness/strength/other important metrics? It might even happen in our lifetimes.
I can agree generally with all you've said here.

About scientific advancements, there's an awful lot to come which could be revolutionary if we were to get into the topic of the technological singularity which is being predicted and the seemingly inevitable synthesis of technology and man, rather than the mere symbiosis which generally exists today. For sure, I don't know what, but have to imagine there are dizzying advances to come. An example of a recent potential revolution is that of chess understanding being revealed by AlphaZero and the advancements in neural networking in the learning strategies of A.I. The chess the program plays undermines long-held chess principles, but the insight it provides can't be so readily incorporated by players who are already developed and in their prime - it's more for the following generations who might be able to incorporate somewhat of a paradigm shift in the whole approach to the game.


So I guess what I meant here was more things like quantum mechanics and the standard model, relativity and such — models which aren't complete but fundamentally as a possible gap in the whole workings of things are already accounted for. So, general theories and mechanics of physics rather than maximising their potential. We are not remotely close to maximising, for example, quantum computing.

Now I appreciate I'm still wrong in what I said, because there is nothing which suggests another equivalent discovery won't be found, something which might render string theory virtually obsolete, say. And perhaps the singularity might escalate the ability to further account for the world and actually make it easier to revolutionise knowledge. Quantum theory upended physics when leading scientists mostly thought they'd solved the world. It can happen again.

In terms of the actual products we can produce from the basic principles of what we know, I have to imagine we're just scratching the surface. We might just be at the beginning of a profound explosion of life-altering technologies, as we continue to build upon principles of science we already know and have worked on for many decades.

Sport doesn't have to wait for this more lofty possibility though to find revolution. I think a good recent example is Stephen Curry in the NBA and the explosion of the 3-point shot. Actually, analytics had shown for a long time that teams should be shooting more 3-pointers, but Curry was the right guy at the right time to explode the paradigm and turn it into a critical staple of any coach's gameplan. The current, flow, of 3-point shooting as the leading strategy was already in motion and Stephen Curry was its spear some years down the road.

Naturally, each sport is its own beast and has its own gaps and areas of possible development which are unique to its construction and ruleset. I suppose that with F1, there is such general volatility in formulae that there should be reasonable opportunity even in the near future for someone to split the game open in some way.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:37 am
That's what I mentioned above, but in 2007-08 it was obvious he'd ignore RB; Macca have been sponsoring him since his first steps in motor racing, I doubt that he'd turn his back on them after his first year there. 2009-2010 would be more realistic, after seeing that he was treated as a Nr2 and having learned a lot from Nando. Possibly
I think tootsie and F1Tyrant are talking about Alonso joining RB in 07-08, not Hamilton. At least that's how I read it.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:17 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:07 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:37 am
That's what I mentioned above, but in 2007-08 it was obvious he'd ignore RB; Macca have been sponsoring him since his first steps in motor racing, I doubt that he'd turn his back on them after his first year there. 2009-2010 would be more realistic, after seeing that he was treated as a Nr2 and having learned a lot from Nando. Possibly
I think tootsie and F1Tyrant are talking about Alonso joining RB in 07-08, not Hamilton. At least that's how I read it.
:thumbup:
Oh my, I completely misread that. Sorry, ignore my comment then!

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:36 pm
So we've established that both Schumacher and Hamilton lost to teammates in specific years due to explainable circumstances. In all cases, they beat the same teammates over other seasons.
And we shall continue to go round in circles arguing over minor fallacies in order to try argue that one was better than the other because of a very specific detail, all the while ignoring the bigger picture - a wider broad overview of the relative strengths they had against the peers of their generation, how consistent they were at being the best driver in each season, and, of course, the wow factor they brought that made watching them race unique.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by DOLOMITE »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:57 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:59 pm

You need to read some of the books I'm afraid. I've heard a lot of anecdotes as well, but books like the "edge of greatness" give a bit more details. For example, stark contrast to the "I love you guys, we are so blessed" routine, Schumacher would know the people in the factory by first name and routinely send flowers to people in their birthdays.

As far as the bit in bold, I am not sure.

I have just ordered Edge Of Greatness so I will see if that offers anything of more substance.
Good way in and enjoying it.Definitely adds some detail to exactl what Schumacher brought to Ferrari. I think I get it now, but it's complex. It seems to be basically that by being as thorough as he was and adopting 2 key principles 1) marginal gains and 2) understanding it's a team effort, he set the bar for the rest of the team to follow. So I'd take that not so much as he drove it, but led by example and because he kept his side of the bargain on Sundays, everyone else was motivated/obliged to follow. Interesting stuff.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:54 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:57 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:59 pm

You need to read some of the books I'm afraid. I've heard a lot of anecdotes as well, but books like the "edge of greatness" give a bit more details. For example, stark contrast to the "I love you guys, we are so blessed" routine, Schumacher would know the people in the factory by first name and routinely send flowers to people in their birthdays.

As far as the bit in bold, I am not sure.

I have just ordered Edge Of Greatness so I will see if that offers anything of more substance.
Good way in and enjoying it.Definitely adds some detail to exactl what Schumacher brought to Ferrari. I think I get it now, but it's complex. It seems to be basically that by being as thorough as he was and adopting 2 key principles 1) marginal gains and 2) understanding it's a team effort, he set the bar for the rest of the team to follow. So I'd take that not so much as he drove it, but led by example and because he kept his side of the bargain on Sundays, everyone else was motivated/obliged to follow. Interesting stuff.
:thumbup:

I bought the 1994 book from Ibrar Malik, but haven't had a chance to read it properly. Skim reading through it, it has some interesting insights about that season too. Not exactly relevant, but you reminded me of that book, need to get on it!

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by schumilegend »

https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by tootsie323 »

schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:11 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!
Go on then, I'll bite. Is that mile of luck from Rosberg and Bottas as well?
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Exediron »

tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:29 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:11 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!
Go on then, I'll bite. Is that mile of luck from Rosberg and Bottas as well?
Obviously?

One of them got to be WDC, and the other has his name well up the all-time tables for poles, wins, podiums, etc. It's dubious either would have had their place in history without the might of the Mercedes championship machine behind them.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:13 pm
I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up.
Trulli train wouldn't work nowadays, what with DRS "push to pass". That's how I think it would be. Mind you, DRS doesn't guarantee a pass and Trulli was a master of defence, but it feels like he would not be as successful

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:11 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:13 pm
I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up.
Trulli train wouldn't work nowadays, what with DRS "push to pass". That's how I think it would be. Mind you, DRS doesn't guarantee a pass and Trulli was a master of defence, but it feels like he would not be as successful
Yeah but that's not what I meant - I'm trying to say there wouldn't be a "Trulli train" as he won't be holding anyone up in the utterly dominant Mercs. With the usual Merc policy of giving the lead driver the favourable strategy, I wonder how many title wins he could have had in those cars by qualifying up front and racing unchallenged.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by JN23 »

On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:49 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:11 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:13 pm
I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up.
Trulli train wouldn't work nowadays, what with DRS "push to pass". That's how I think it would be. Mind you, DRS doesn't guarantee a pass and Trulli was a master of defence, but it feels like he would not be as successful
Yeah but that's not what I meant - I'm trying to say there wouldn't be a "Trulli train" as he won't be holding anyone up in the utterly dominant Mercs. With the usual Merc policy of giving the lead driver the favourable strategy, I wonder how many title wins he could have had in those cars by qualifying up front and racing unchallenged.
Ah, I see, I probably misunderstood that. Re-reading it makes sense. I agree, but he'd still have to beat his fellow driver in an equally fast car. I guess he would definitely be a WDC, but I can't point to a number of

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
YEah, that would be interesting to see

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

This thread is so sour. :thumbdown:
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by tootsie323 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:50 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:29 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:11 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!
Go on then, I'll bite. Is that mile of luck from Rosberg and Bottas as well?
Obviously?

One of them got to be WDC, and the other has his name well up the all-time tables for poles, wins, podiums, etc. It's dubious either would have had their place in history without the might of the Mercedes championship machine behind them.
Apologies, perhaps I phrased that badly. I meant to ask whether Hamilton is 'a mile' luckier then either Rosberg or Bottas.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:00 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:50 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:29 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:11 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!
Go on then, I'll bite. Is that mile of luck from Rosberg and Bottas as well?
Obviously?

One of them got to be WDC, and the other has his name well up the all-time tables for poles, wins, podiums, etc. It's dubious either would have had their place in history without the might of the Mercedes championship machine behind them.
Apologies, perhaps I phrased that badly. I meant to ask whether Hamilton is 'a mile' luckier then either Rosberg or Bottas.
The comeback will be that he's just luckier to have such weak teammates.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm
This thread is so sour. :thumbdown:
And yet you don't exactly seem to be adding any value to it with your saltiness :thumbdown:

Siao7
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm
This thread is so sour. :thumbdown:
And yet you don't exactly seem to be adding any value to it with your saltiness :thumbdown:
Maybe people didn't praise Hamilton enough lately...

mikeyg123
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm
This thread is so sour. :thumbdown:
And yet you manage to come in with sourest remark to date :lol: :lol:

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by j man »

schumilegend wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:11 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/04/28 ... ualifying/

Has there been any precedence of a team slowing down their cars because they're so damn dominant... The RB and Ferrari are touted as dominant.. The Merc is ANOTHER level... Hamilton the luckiest driver in F1 history by quite a mile... Talk about winning the lottery!
I think it was fairly well established that the 2014 Merc wasn't run at full power. The mask dropped in Bahrain when both Hamilton and Rosberg took matters into their own hands on engine modes in an attempt to win the race, and they pulled away from the others by seconds per lap.

Both Hamilton and Schumacher have bloated career stats compared to past legends through having vastly superior machinery at times, the greater number of races in each season compared to the past and much better reliability. The same goes for Vettel to a lesser extent. I wouldn't pay too much heed to the stats and it's why I'm not quite on board with people declaring Hamilton the greatest of all time. He's certainly up there with the best, but his win/pole totals alone are not a sound basis to make that judgement.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Personally I think both Rosberg and Vettel's win record have a greater discrepancy to their ability record than Hamilton's.

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:26 pm
This thread is so sour. :thumbdown:
And yet you don't exactly seem to be adding any value to it with your saltiness :thumbdown:
Look at the thread title, the thread has been rehashed by a post that doesn't meet the title's objectives, an out and out let's have a dig at Hamilton post with the normal back up, change the thread title to the Lewis Hamilton bashing thread, I'm ok with that then we know it is what it is.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm

In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
The prospect of a driver such as Trulli being good enough to string titles together in the cars Hamilton has registered the bulk of his success in is very relevant to the thread.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm


A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
The prospect of a driver such as Trulli being good enough to string titles together in the cars Hamilton has registered the bulk of his success in is very relevant to the thread.
Well, as a teammate of Hamilton: zero titles.

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm


A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
The prospect of a driver such as Trulli being good enough to string titles together in the cars Hamilton has registered the bulk of his success in is very relevant to the thread.
Jarno Trulli was 40 years old in 2014, a few years earlier he struggled against a driver that Hamilton thrashed, how is Trulli relevant, how is a contemporary, is their any grannies we are going to throw into the mix?
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm

We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
The prospect of a driver such as Trulli being good enough to string titles together in the cars Hamilton has registered the bulk of his success in is very relevant to the thread.
Jarno Trulli was 40 years old in 2014, a few years earlier he struggled against a driver that Hamilton thrashed, how is Trulli relevant, how is a contemporary, is their any grannies we are going to throw into the mix?
In this case Trulli is symbolic. A relevant symbol.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm

In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm


A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.
If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.

A.J.
Posts: 992
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:42 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:54 pm

We get it Mercedes had a dominant car from 2014-2016.
Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.
If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.
Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.

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