Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:42 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:01 am


Not to forget 2019-2020 as well - although that took you 27 pages to get that? 8O

Don't see the relevance to Trulli, except another attempt from you at trying to discredit anything that even remotely makes Hamilton look not so special.
I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.
If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.
Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Exediron »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I'm curious what leads you to that line of thinking. Trulli and Massa were both teammates with Alonso, in a team environment that favored Alonso, and one of them did far better in that environment. It wasn't Massa.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Exediron wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:01 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I'm curious what leads you to that line of thinking. Trulli and Massa were both teammates with Alonso, in a team environment that favored Alonso, and one of them did far better in that environment. It wasn't Massa.
Well, I am not so sure about "far" better. Notwithstanding, Alonso partnered an experienced Trulli, incumbent in the team, in what was his second season in F1. Still, he convincingly beat him.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:42 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:11 pm

I'm not the one that brought Trulli forward and was he really a contemporary of Hamilton, I have to wonder how far off topic this thread is continually going to live.
He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.
If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.
Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

Yes Trulli by today's standards was top tier when coming into his peak circa 2004-5. His performances showed that well. To outscore Alonso despite what Briatore was doing is quite a feat. 2005 was equally impressive. The talent pool back then was underrated.

Another top tier driver was Ralf Schumacher. Montoya always names Ralf as the fastest teammate he had, and I assume he knows Kimi was his teammate too.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:42 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:56 pm


He was a contemporary of Schumacher - and if he had the most dominant cars in the history of the sport for 5 years (and at worst best or equal best for the other 2 - 7 years running!), he would be right up there in title counts. Remember that this is the guy who beat Alonso as a team-mate, despite being woefully out of favour with the team-boss (arguably worse than the situation Alonso faced in 2007).

In the "qualify 1-2 and run away" hybrid era with the Mercs, a driver like him would undoubtedly flourish.
If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.
Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.
I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:15 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:42 pm


If anyone of Hamilton, Rosberg or Bottas was in the second Mercedes, Trulli would have scored either zero titles or maybe one lucky one.

And, taking all races in which they were teammates, Alonso clearly beat Trulli.
Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.
I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.
You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:24 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:15 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:51 pm


Respectfully disagree - Trulli was one of the outright best qualifiers in his prime, and with the Merc it would not surprise me to see him racking up championships. With someone like Bottas as a teammate it isn't even a challenge tbh.
I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.
I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.
You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.
So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:24 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:15 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm


I am very confident that Bottas would regularly outqualify Trulli - and easily beat him in the races.
I don't think that Trulli was better than Massa, for instance.
I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.
I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.
You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.
So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.
I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.

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Johnson
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
Is pole that important?

Rosberg had 12 poles in 2014, he won 3 of them.
Rosberg had 7 poles in 2015, he won 4 of them.
Rosberg had 8 poles in 2016, he won 6 of them* majority with Hamilton breaking down or taking penalties.

27 poles, 13 wins from pole. 48% which is bolstered largely by 2016 when Hamilton broke down in qualifying 3 times and took grid penalties in another race as well as messing up his start and falling way down the order in a couple of other races too. Overall, Hamilton still won more races with Rosberg starting on pole than Rosberg did himself.

Bottas had 4 poles in 2017, he won 2 of them
Bottas had 2 poles in 2017, he won 0 of them
Bottas had 4 poles in 2019, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 5 poles in 2020, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 1 pole in 2021, he won 0 of them

16 poles, 4 wins from pole. 25%

Hamilton also won way more races with Bottas on pole than Bottas won himself. Bottas has won 2 races in which Hamilton started on pole (Russia 2020 when Hamilton got a penalty and Australia 2019 when he beat him to turn 1 and Hamilton had floor damage)

A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:07 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
Is pole that important?

Rosberg had 12 poles in 2014, he won 3 of them.
Rosberg had 7 poles in 2015, he won 4 of them.
Rosberg had 8 poles in 2016, he won 6 of them* majority with Hamilton breaking down or taking penalties.

27 poles, 13 wins from pole. 48% which is bolstered largely by 2016 when Hamilton broke down in qualifying 3 times and took grid penalties in another race as well as messing up his start and falling way down the order in a couple of other races too. Overall, Hamilton still won more races with Rosberg starting on pole than Rosberg did himself.

Bottas had 4 poles in 2017, he won 2 of them
Bottas had 2 poles in 2017, he won 0 of them
Bottas had 4 poles in 2019, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 5 poles in 2020, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 1 pole in 2021, he won 0 of them

16 poles, 4 wins from pole. 25%

Hamilton also won way more races with Bottas on pole than Bottas won himself. Bottas has won 2 races in which Hamilton started on pole (Russia 2020 when Hamilton got a penalty and Australia 2019 when he beat him to turn 1 and Hamilton had floor damage)
That's a fair call out - I would have to look at the numbers in detail to understand how/why the pole conversion is so low, but your argument is a valid one. Will come back to this when I have had a chance to look at this in more detail.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:07 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
Is pole that important?

Rosberg had 12 poles in 2014, he won 3 of them.
Rosberg had 7 poles in 2015, he won 4 of them.
Rosberg had 8 poles in 2016, he won 6 of them* majority with Hamilton breaking down or taking penalties.

27 poles, 13 wins from pole. 48% which is bolstered largely by 2016 when Hamilton broke down in qualifying 3 times and took grid penalties in another race as well as messing up his start and falling way down the order in a couple of other races too. Overall, Hamilton still won more races with Rosberg starting on pole than Rosberg did himself.

Bottas had 4 poles in 2017, he won 2 of them
Bottas had 2 poles in 2017, he won 0 of them
Bottas had 4 poles in 2019, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 5 poles in 2020, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 1 pole in 2021, he won 0 of them

16 poles, 4 wins from pole. 25%

Hamilton also won way more races with Bottas on pole than Bottas won himself. Bottas has won 2 races in which Hamilton started on pole (Russia 2020 when Hamilton got a penalty and Australia 2019 when he beat him to turn 1 and Hamilton had floor damage)
Isn't it? By far the most wins are by pole:

https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques ... rille.aspx

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:39 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:07 pm
A.J. wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:32 pm
JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:59 am
On Trulli - does anyone have any data on how he compared to other drivers in qualifying using cross comparisons?
In simplistic terms Kovallinen beat Trulli and Hamilton beat Kovallinen, no other driver could have won titles in the 2000 Ferraris if Schumacher had not been around?

No other drivers could have won the Red Bull titles, no other drivers could have won titles in the Williams cars in the 80s and 90s?
A retiring Trulli, it seems you're forgetting that important part - the fact that Kovalainen on qualy rankings rates so high up is due to this one simple fact. Tells you how strong Jarno Trulli was in qualifying - in the Merc era of qualify 1-2 and run away he would have been a huge title contender.
Is pole that important?

Rosberg had 12 poles in 2014, he won 3 of them.
Rosberg had 7 poles in 2015, he won 4 of them.
Rosberg had 8 poles in 2016, he won 6 of them* majority with Hamilton breaking down or taking penalties.

27 poles, 13 wins from pole. 48% which is bolstered largely by 2016 when Hamilton broke down in qualifying 3 times and took grid penalties in another race as well as messing up his start and falling way down the order in a couple of other races too. Overall, Hamilton still won more races with Rosberg starting on pole than Rosberg did himself.

Bottas had 4 poles in 2017, he won 2 of them
Bottas had 2 poles in 2017, he won 0 of them
Bottas had 4 poles in 2019, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 5 poles in 2020, he won 1 of them
Bottas had 1 pole in 2021, he won 0 of them

16 poles, 4 wins from pole. 25%

Hamilton also won way more races with Bottas on pole than Bottas won himself. Bottas has won 2 races in which Hamilton started on pole (Russia 2020 when Hamilton got a penalty and Australia 2019 when he beat him to turn 1 and Hamilton had floor damage)
That's a fair call out - I would have to look at the numbers in detail to understand how/why the pole conversion is so low, but your argument is a valid one. Will come back to this when I have had a chance to look at this in more detail.
Pole is not an automatic win obviously, but it is a much better chance of winning (almost double the percentage of wins from the second place, etc.). It is a drag race to the first corner and we need to remember that (like everything else) some drivers will be better at it than others.

While the conversion rate is lower than one may think, it is still a hell of a lot better than the rest!

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Funny though that this year no one has won from pole yet!!!

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Johnson
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

As an example, Bottas last 10 poles are...

Overtaken on track by Hamilton (Portugal 2021)

Overtaken at the start by Russell (Bahrain 2020)

Overcut by Hamilton in the pits (Imola 2020 - he had piece of Vettels car stuck in his floor)

Overtaken on track by Hamilton before retiring (Eifel 2020)

Overtaken on track by Hamilton (70 anniversary 2020)

Won from pole (Austria 2020)

Won from pole (USA 2019)

Overcut by Hamilton in the pits (Silverstone 2019, Hamilton got a lucky VSC pit but would have won anyway with his pace)

Overtaken at the start by Hamilton (Spain 2019)

Won from pole (Baku 2019)

3 wins for Bottas
6 wins for Hamilton from 9 races

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Johnson
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Hamilton's last 10 poles were wins with the exception of;

Overtaken by Verstappen off the grid (Imola 2021)
Overcut by Bottas after serving penalty (Russia 2020)
Overtaken by Gasly after serving penalty (Monza 2020)

7 wins for Hamilton, 1 for Gasly, 1 for Verstappen and 1 for Bottas

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:05 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:24 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:15 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:19 am


I am very confident Trulli would have the upper hand - easily at that. The common thread between Trulli and Massa is Alonso, and Trulli still beat him in 2004 despite Briatore's overt and obvious favouring of Alonso (while Massa was destroyed by Alonso) - so I don't understand your line of thinking there at all.
I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.
You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.
So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.
I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.
My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.

A.J.
Posts: 969
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:05 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:24 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:15 am


I disagree. First, Alonso clearly beat Trulli over their total common time as teammates despite being little more than a rookie. I don't buy conclusions based on selecting part seasons or specific races from the total available comparison. Otherwise, we could argue that Irvine beat Schumacher over the common race weekends they entered in 1999 - and I disagree with that as well. Second, while Trulli and Massa may be close, Bottas is very clearly quicker than Massa as evidenced by their time as teammates. So, altogether, I think it is highly unlikely that a mid- career Trulli would have the upper hand on a mid-career Bottas.
You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.
So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.
I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.
My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.

I wouldn't do a comparison to Bottas, as for me he is clearly a lower tier. Perhaps if he manages to outscore Hamilton sometime the way Jenson Button did.

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.
I feel that's a little bit unfair because Trulli having 6 seasons under his belt before being paired with Alonso would give him a huge advantage in experience. I think the comparison with Alonso does flatter Trulli in that regard.

It's similar to Mark Webber having 4 seasons under his belt before pairing with a rookie Nico Rosberg, I don't think anyone seriously claims Webber was better than Rosberg and actually the fact Rosberg was so close (12-6 to Webber in qualifying, 5-3 to Webber in races excluding mechanical DNFs and 7-4 to Webber in points) would actually be a comparison in his favour.

I'd put Trulli here:

Hamilton <--- Rosberg/Button <- Trulli <- Bottas <- Kovalainen

I reckon he's in the lower Rosberg/Button/Vettel tier.
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:05 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:24 am


You have already stated you disagree and why, so at this point you're just repeating yourself (including your absurd and nonsensical claim of Irvine somehow beating Schumacher - it's ok, Jenson beat Hamilton in their time together, get over it). Alonso in 2004 was in his third full season in F1 - and you think that's little more than a rookie? Hamilton was already a WDC by then. Schumacher was a WDC in his third full season. Alonso was getting beaten by Trulli despite having the full and unequivocal support of his team.

Trulli and Massa aren't close - you keep repeating it hoping people will somehow believe you if you do it enough, but the evidence clearly proves otherwise. Trulli was a monster at qualifying, and in the 2014-onward era he would be a monster in the Mercs.
So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.
I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.
My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.
Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".

A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:05 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 am


So, first you accuse me of repeating my opinion and they you go on to repeat yours? Well, ... ;-)

I understand you think Trulli >> Massa but you fundamentally base this on a part season (selective data at your convenience) whereas you massively reject doing the same with Schumacher and Irvine. That's inconsistent. I reject both part season comparisons and thus I am consistent in that. In other words, you're reasoning does not convince me at all as it looks rather arbitrary.

I don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, although I think that Massa had higher highs and lower lows than Trulli.
I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.
My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.
Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".
Since you care enough to ask for it (but apparently not enough to look for it), I'll help you with the stats. The "part season" you talk about was actually 15 races, as compared to 16 races in total for the season prior (but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your story, no matter how ill-informed it may be).

2003:
Qualifying - Dead heat between Alonso and Trulli (8-8)
Points - 55 - 33 in favour of Alonso

2004: Trulli well and 'truly' turns the tables
Qualifying - Trulli wins the qualifying battle 8-7
Points - 46-45 in favour of Trulli

In their time together, Trulli outqualified Alonso 16-15 (for comparison, Hamilton was 9-8 against Alonso as his teammate).


How did Massa fare in qualifying against the mighty Alonso?

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 11-8

Overall, Alonso outqualifies Massa 58-19 - but sure, in your fantasy world this is the same as him being beaten 16-15. :uhoh:

A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.
I feel that's a little bit unfair because Trulli having 6 seasons under his belt before being paired with Alonso would give him a huge advantage in experience. I think the comparison with Alonso does flatter Trulli in that regard.

It's similar to Mark Webber having 4 seasons under his belt before pairing with a rookie Nico Rosberg, I don't think anyone seriously claims Webber was better than Rosberg and actually the fact Rosberg was so close (12-6 to Webber in qualifying, 5-3 to Webber in races excluding mechanical DNFs and 7-4 to Webber in points) would actually be a comparison in his favour.

I'd put Trulli here:

Hamilton <--- Rosberg/Button <- Trulli <- Bottas <- Kovalainen

I reckon he's in the lower Rosberg/Button/Vettel tier.
Trulli was more experienced, no doubt - but for the greats that's not a big deal. As I mentioned to the previous poster, both Schumacher and Hamilton were either already or about to be WDCs in their 3rd full season in F1 (even more recently, look at the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen putting the manners on their much more experienced teammates) - while Alonso (who is legitimately considered one of the best of his era) was being beaten by Trulli. That says a lot about Trulli's prowess, especially in qualifying where he was a monster.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:09 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:05 pm


I am not arguing that Trulli was a better driver than Alonso, or that he beat Alonso over their time together as team-mates (neither did he outscore Alonso over their time together, the way Button did to Hamilton in their 3 years together). The 2004 season Trulli outscored Alonso as his team-mate - despite Briatore explicitly favouring Alonso (even making comments that they couldn't give both drivers the same car every race) - - and Alonso did not miss races in the season due to accidents, or move over to let Trulli pass for the championship. Your attempt to try and equate the two completely different situations is transparent (and might I add, a bit sad) ;)

You can state till the cows come home that you don't think there is much between Trulli and Massa, but the facts say otherwise. Even if you consider their whole time together, Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was. And this is without even considering your debunked assertion about Alonso being a near rookie in his third season in F1 (by which time Hamilton and Schumacher, the main protagonists of this very thread, were or about to be WDCs) - a season in which Trulli beat him during their time together despite the odds being stacked against him. He would be easily qualifying up front and racing to wins in the all-conquering Mercs (which we recently learned were running on idle modes at the start of the hybrid era to hide the true extent of their domination) no matter who he was teamed with, never mind a third-rate driver such as Bottas.
My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.
Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".
Since you care enough to ask for it (but apparently not enough to look for it), I'll help you with the stats. The "part season" you talk about was actually 15 races, as compared to 16 races in total for the season prior (but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your story, no matter how ill-informed it may be).

2003:
Qualifying - Dead heat between Alonso and Trulli (8-8)
Points - 55 - 33 in favour of Alonso

2004: Trulli well and 'truly' turns the tables
Qualifying - Trulli wins the qualifying battle 8-7
Points - 46-45 in favour of Trulli

In their time together, Trulli outqualified Alonso 16-15 (for comparison, Hamilton was 9-8 against Alonso as his teammate).


How did Massa fare in qualifying against the mighty Alonso?

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 11-8

Overall, Alonso outqualifies Massa 58-19 - but sure, in your fantasy world this is the same as him being beaten 16-15. :uhoh:
Thank you very much.

Indeed, prime Trulli was much closer in qualifying to young Alonso than Massa was to prime Alonso. Only 2013 comes somewhat closer - but is also not there. Good to see that, with some help, you found a more convincing way of reasoning. :thumbup:

The tragedy with Massa is really that the more and the deeper you look into his career, the weaker he appears to be. An interesting question is now race performance. Is Trulli ahead in this regard as well or not? The (incomplete) numbers you brought suggest that he should be closer here as well but maybe with a smaller difference, which may be explained by experience differences (and a smaller data-set).

Anyway, in total, I agree that Trulli was probably overall better than Massa, and definitely in qualifying. Since Bottas convincingly outperformed Massa in every dimension in a direct comparison, a hypothetical Trulli vs. Bottas duel is not determined. Still, my guess is that Bottas would have the upper hand overall.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by DOLOMITE »

some staty goodness on Trulli on this thread here
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Thank you Dolo

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DOLOMITE
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by DOLOMITE »

Something I never appreciated about Trulli was how quickly he arrived in F1. Looks like in terms of single seater full seasons all he did was 2 years in German F3.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:53 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:09 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 5:15 pm


My reference to Alonso being in his second and third season points to Trulli being the more experienced one (and the incumbent driver at Renault). A more experienced and developed Alonso (like the one Massa had to face) would likely have put a bigger distance between him and Trulli.

My stance is that you can reliably only look at the total time that two drivers were teammates. Any incomplete selection is meaningless - and mostly chosen at the convenience of the one who selected it. I have been consistent with that opinion.

And, yes, taking everything together there is really no evidence that Trulli was much better than Massa, as you claim. And Bottas is most likely better than both of them. That is becoming even clearer with the ongoing discussion.
The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.
Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".
Since you care enough to ask for it (but apparently not enough to look for it), I'll help you with the stats. The "part season" you talk about was actually 15 races, as compared to 16 races in total for the season prior (but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your story, no matter how ill-informed it may be).

2003:
Qualifying - Dead heat between Alonso and Trulli (8-8)
Points - 55 - 33 in favour of Alonso

2004: Trulli well and 'truly' turns the tables
Qualifying - Trulli wins the qualifying battle 8-7
Points - 46-45 in favour of Trulli

In their time together, Trulli outqualified Alonso 16-15 (for comparison, Hamilton was 9-8 against Alonso as his teammate).


How did Massa fare in qualifying against the mighty Alonso?

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 11-8

Overall, Alonso outqualifies Massa 58-19 - but sure, in your fantasy world this is the same as him being beaten 16-15. :uhoh:
Thank you very much.

Indeed, prime Trulli was much closer in qualifying to young Alonso than Massa was to prime Alonso. Only 2013 comes somewhat closer - but is also not there. Good to see that, with some help, you found a more convincing way of reasoning. :thumbup:

The tragedy with Massa is really that the more and the deeper you look into his career, the weaker he appears to be. An interesting question is now race performance. Is Trulli ahead in this regard as well or not? The (incomplete) numbers you brought suggest that he should be closer here as well but maybe with a smaller difference, which may be explained by experience differences (and a smaller data-set).

Anyway, in total, I agree that Trulli was probably overall better than Massa, and definitely in qualifying. Since Bottas convincingly outperformed Massa in every dimension in a direct comparison, a hypothetical Trulli vs. Bottas duel is not determined. Still, my guess is that Bottas would have the upper hand overall.
Whatever man. You've been proven wrong here, your theories comprehensively debunked, and yet you go around putting up your guesses like they are somehow valid. You talk about "prime" drivers but leave out that Bottas was against a very much "past-it" Massa, and still couldn't pull out a gap over him the way Alonso did. The whole history of Alonso vs Trulli/Massa in qualifying is here, so your "incomplete" comment is nonsensical.

Your "guess" like many other of your arguments is plain nonsense, again. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend nobody can see you, but all evidence clearly shows that. You are wrong.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:51 am
some staty goodness on Trulli on this thread here
This is super helpful - thanks.

Waiting for Paolo_Lasardo to come and tell us how this data is somehow incomplete and his guess is Yuji Ide will outqualify Trulli.

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Johnson
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:06 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:53 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:09 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:18 pm


The simple fact that Trulli was much closer to Alonso than Massa ever was is evidence enough - you choosing to ignore it because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Massa has never looked even close to outscoring Alonso as a teammate, while Trulli did that in their final season together.
Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".
Since you care enough to ask for it (but apparently not enough to look for it), I'll help you with the stats. The "part season" you talk about was actually 15 races, as compared to 16 races in total for the season prior (but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your story, no matter how ill-informed it may be).

2003:
Qualifying - Dead heat between Alonso and Trulli (8-8)
Points - 55 - 33 in favour of Alonso

2004: Trulli well and 'truly' turns the tables
Qualifying - Trulli wins the qualifying battle 8-7
Points - 46-45 in favour of Trulli

In their time together, Trulli outqualified Alonso 16-15 (for comparison, Hamilton was 9-8 against Alonso as his teammate).


How did Massa fare in qualifying against the mighty Alonso?

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 11-8

Overall, Alonso outqualifies Massa 58-19 - but sure, in your fantasy world this is the same as him being beaten 16-15. :uhoh:
Thank you very much.

Indeed, prime Trulli was much closer in qualifying to young Alonso than Massa was to prime Alonso. Only 2013 comes somewhat closer - but is also not there. Good to see that, with some help, you found a more convincing way of reasoning. :thumbup:

The tragedy with Massa is really that the more and the deeper you look into his career, the weaker he appears to be. An interesting question is now race performance. Is Trulli ahead in this regard as well or not? The (incomplete) numbers you brought suggest that he should be closer here as well but maybe with a smaller difference, which may be explained by experience differences (and a smaller data-set).

Anyway, in total, I agree that Trulli was probably overall better than Massa, and definitely in qualifying. Since Bottas convincingly outperformed Massa in every dimension in a direct comparison, a hypothetical Trulli vs. Bottas duel is not determined. Still, my guess is that Bottas would have the upper hand overall.
Whatever man. You've been proven wrong here, your theories comprehensively debunked, and yet you go around putting up your guesses like they are somehow valid. You talk about "prime" drivers but leave out that Bottas was against a very much "past-it" Massa, and still couldn't pull out a gap over him the way Alonso did. The whole history of Alonso vs Trulli/Massa in qualifying is here, so your "incomplete" comment is nonsensical.

Your "guess" like many other of your arguments is plain nonsense, again. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend nobody can see you, but all evidence clearly shows that. You are wrong.
Bottas had a larger gap to Massa in qualifying than Alonso did, no? I am sure I've read that numerous times.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:29 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!
Thank you - that is exactly what I said, that Trulli was supremely talented at qualifying. :thumbup:

The whole "Trulli train" period comes from him putting his cars up higher than they really deserved to be, leading to him holding up faster cars in the races due to overtaking being difficult.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

I hope the once Bottas leave Mercedes at the end of the season we can see him against a Ricciardo or Perez to establish his true level. Kovalainen did well against Fisichella pre-Hamilton and against an Trulli post-Hamilton when both at 10+ seasons of experience.
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:06 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:53 am
A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:09 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:56 am


Alonso beat both Trulli and Massa over their total time together. How much closer was Trulli actually points-wise, with respect to qualifying duel, qualifying speedwise, etc? That would convince me more than arbitrarily selecting a part season as "evidence".
Since you care enough to ask for it (but apparently not enough to look for it), I'll help you with the stats. The "part season" you talk about was actually 15 races, as compared to 16 races in total for the season prior (but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your story, no matter how ill-informed it may be).

2003:
Qualifying - Dead heat between Alonso and Trulli (8-8)
Points - 55 - 33 in favour of Alonso

2004: Trulli well and 'truly' turns the tables
Qualifying - Trulli wins the qualifying battle 8-7
Points - 46-45 in favour of Trulli

In their time together, Trulli outqualified Alonso 16-15 (for comparison, Hamilton was 9-8 against Alonso as his teammate).


How did Massa fare in qualifying against the mighty Alonso?

2010: 15-4

2011: 15-4

2012: 17-3

2013: 11-8

Overall, Alonso outqualifies Massa 58-19 - but sure, in your fantasy world this is the same as him being beaten 16-15. :uhoh:
Thank you very much.

Indeed, prime Trulli was much closer in qualifying to young Alonso than Massa was to prime Alonso. Only 2013 comes somewhat closer - but is also not there. Good to see that, with some help, you found a more convincing way of reasoning. :thumbup:

The tragedy with Massa is really that the more and the deeper you look into his career, the weaker he appears to be. An interesting question is now race performance. Is Trulli ahead in this regard as well or not? The (incomplete) numbers you brought suggest that he should be closer here as well but maybe with a smaller difference, which may be explained by experience differences (and a smaller data-set).

Anyway, in total, I agree that Trulli was probably overall better than Massa, and definitely in qualifying. Since Bottas convincingly outperformed Massa in every dimension in a direct comparison, a hypothetical Trulli vs. Bottas duel is not determined. Still, my guess is that Bottas would have the upper hand overall.
Whatever man. You've been proven wrong here, your theories comprehensively debunked, and yet you go around putting up your guesses like they are somehow valid. You talk about "prime" drivers but leave out that Bottas was against a very much "past-it" Massa, and still couldn't pull out a gap over him the way Alonso did. The whole history of Alonso vs Trulli/Massa in qualifying is here, so your "incomplete" comment is nonsensical.

Your "guess" like many other of your arguments is plain nonsense, again. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend nobody can see you, but all evidence clearly shows that. You are wrong.
Bottas had a larger gap to Massa in qualifying than Alonso did, no? I am sure I've read that numerous times.
I can't comment on the gaps because I don't have the numbers - overall, Bottas outqualified Massa 41-18 (skewed massively by his 2016 17-4 win, by which time Massa was well and truly done - the other seasons were much closer) which is worse than Alonso's 58-19 win. Massa (and a very "past-it" one, remember), however, still scored a pole position to Bottas' 0, and is much closer in races H2H with 31-27 in favour of Bottas.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:29 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!
Finally got where? I've made 2 comments in this thread on Trulli and never disputed that Trulli was quick over 1 lap. I think everybody that watched that era knows Trulli was in the top 3 drivers over 1 lap in that decade.

The original comment was that Trulli would dominant in the Mercedes because he would always get pole - which is a silly point because almost any driver would get pole in the 2014 onwards Mercedes. So Trulli's greatest strength (qualifying) is actually removed by having such a dominant car. It also means his team mate would likely be in P2 right behind him.

The rules of the early 2000's era suited Trulli perfectly. Being quick over 1 lap but not so quick in the race, qualifying on race fuel and strategy locked in, no DRS and near impossible to overtake.

In the era of DRS, undercuts, significantly more tyre strategy and significantly more SC/VSC influence, having track position is much less important now than the early 2000's. If you could put the car on pole with a heavy fuel load back in the early 2000 and lead after the first corner it was almost certain you would win.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:40 am
I hope the once Bottas leave Mercedes at the end of the season we can see him against a Ricciardo or Perez to establish his true level. Kovalainen did well against Fisichella pre-Hamilton and against an Trulli post-Hamilton when both at 10+ seasons of experience.
Kovalainen is the only outlier when it comes to Trulli, but this was at the fag end of his career when he was on his way out of the sport. Trulli was so highly rated in qualifying that some model used by the official F1 site had Kovalainen as the 7th fastest ever or something - based simply on this one comparison.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:29 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!
Finally got where? I've made 2 comments in this thread on Trulli and never disputed that Trulli was quick over 1 lap. I think everybody that watched that era knows Trulli was in the top 3 drivers over 1 lap in that decade.

The original comment was that Trulli would dominant in the Mercedes because he would always get pole - which is a silly point because almost any driver would get pole in the 2014 onwards Mercedes. So Trulli's greatest strength (qualifying) is actually removed by having such a dominant car. It also means his team mate would likely be in P2 right behind him.

The rules of the early 2000's era suited Trulli perfectly. Being quick over 1 lap but not so quick in the race, qualifying on race fuel and strategy locked in, no DRS and near impossible to overtake.

In the era of DRS, undercuts, significantly more tyre strategy and significantly more SC/VSC influence, having track position is much less important now than the early 2000's. If you could put the car on pole with a heavy fuel load back in the early 2000 and lead after the first corner it was almost certain you would win.
This was my original comment: "I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up"

There are people arguing on this thread that Trulli wasn't a great qualifier, was at Massa's level, and would somehow be outqualified by a Bottas - when all evidence points otherwise.

In the Merc domination era Trulli would have been truly interesting to watch, as Merc explicitly favoured the driver that was ahead when it came to strategy. If Trulli could qualify ahead of his teammate (no matter who it was) and manage to lead into the first corner (which would also be likely because he was a great starter, but this is purely based on my memory of things) - he would get preferred strategy, and his team-mate would not be allowed to undercut him (as we saw during the HAM-ROS years). This is the perfect situation for someone fighting for titles up front.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Heikki was quick over 1 lap, fuel adjusted in 2008 it was something like 8-4 in Hamiltons favour. They had to fuel Heikki up on occasions to absolutely ensure he did not out qualifying Hamilton because come race day Hamilton was 0.4-0.6 a lap quicker.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:29 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!
Finally got where? I've made 2 comments in this thread on Trulli and never disputed that Trulli was quick over 1 lap. I think everybody that watched that era knows Trulli was in the top 3 drivers over 1 lap in that decade.

The original comment was that Trulli would dominant in the Mercedes because he would always get pole - which is a silly point because almost any driver would get pole in the 2014 onwards Mercedes. So Trulli's greatest strength (qualifying) is actually removed by having such a dominant car. It also means his team mate would likely be in P2 right behind him.

The rules of the early 2000's era suited Trulli perfectly. Being quick over 1 lap but not so quick in the race, qualifying on race fuel and strategy locked in, no DRS and near impossible to overtake.

In the era of DRS, undercuts, significantly more tyre strategy and significantly more SC/VSC influence, having track position is much less important now than the early 2000's. If you could put the car on pole with a heavy fuel load back in the early 2000 and lead after the first corner it was almost certain you would win.
Oh I know, it wasn't aimed at you mate. Just an overall comment as an observer on a topic going on for a couple of pages, I found it funny! Please don't take it as a snipe to you.

In fact I made a similar comment as you:
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:11 am
Trulli train wouldn't work nowadays, what with DRS "push to pass". That's how I think it would be. Mind you, DRS doesn't guarantee a pass and Trulli was a master of defence, but it feels like he would not be as successful

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:52 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:45 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:29 am
Johnson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 am
Alonso was better than Trulli in 2004, Alonso had 5 DNFs, Trulli had 3. Alonso also made a mistake in the one race Renault had the best car and Trulli out scored him 10-0 in that race. If you re-watch 2004, Alonso is still clearly the better driver but Trulli did have great 1 lap speed.
And this is exactly what was argued in the first place.

We finally got there!
Finally got where? I've made 2 comments in this thread on Trulli and never disputed that Trulli was quick over 1 lap. I think everybody that watched that era knows Trulli was in the top 3 drivers over 1 lap in that decade.

The original comment was that Trulli would dominant in the Mercedes because he would always get pole - which is a silly point because almost any driver would get pole in the 2014 onwards Mercedes. So Trulli's greatest strength (qualifying) is actually removed by having such a dominant car. It also means his team mate would likely be in P2 right behind him.

The rules of the early 2000's era suited Trulli perfectly. Being quick over 1 lap but not so quick in the race, qualifying on race fuel and strategy locked in, no DRS and near impossible to overtake.

In the era of DRS, undercuts, significantly more tyre strategy and significantly more SC/VSC influence, having track position is much less important now than the early 2000's. If you could put the car on pole with a heavy fuel load back in the early 2000 and lead after the first corner it was almost certain you would win.
This was my original comment: "I would have loved to see Jarno Trulli in those Mercs - can only wonder how many titles he would have won with his qualifying prowess when the "Trulli train" didn't have to hold anyone up"

There are people arguing on this thread that Trulli wasn't a great qualifier, was at Massa's level, and would somehow be outqualified by a Bottas - when all evidence points otherwise.

In the Merc domination era Trulli would have been truly interesting to watch, as Merc explicitly favoured the driver that was ahead when it came to strategy. If Trulli could qualify ahead of his teammate (no matter who it was) and manage to lead into the first corner (which would also be likely because he was a great starter, but this is purely based on my memory of things) - he would get preferred strategy, and his team-mate would not be allowed to undercut him (as we saw during the HAM-ROS years). This is the perfect situation for someone fighting for titles up front.
The stats clearly show how important pole was for Rosberg/Bottas. There is DRS now, Rosberg was overtaken many times by Hamilton and Bottas even more.

Rosberg converted 13 of his 27 poles and most of those Hamilton was not in contention to win. Such as -
2016 Japan - Hamilton dropped to 8th place with a bad start
2016 Belgium - Hamilton started P20 after engine penalties
2016 Baku - Hamilton started P10 due to qualifying crash
2016 Russia - Hamilton started P10 due to qualifying breakdown
2016 China - Hamilton started P20 due to qualifying breakdown
2014 Germany - Hamilton started P20 due to qualifying breakdown

Half of Nico's conversions from pole involved Hamilton out of the race effectively. Thats why Bottas conversion rate is so low as Hamilton just has not had the same level of bad luck as he did against Rosberg. Mercedes is much more reliable now.

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