Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
...that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.
If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!
I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
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Podiums: 169 (1st)


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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am
Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.

A.J.
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
...that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.
If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!
I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am
Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.
He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
...that Hamilton simply doesn't have the team-management skills that true greats like Schumacher and Senna have.
If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:44 am
Reminds me of the argument earlier in the thread where some people were arguing that Hamilton will win head to head against Schumacher in the same team - no chance!
I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.
Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:48 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am
Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.
He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.

A.J.
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 am


If Hamilton didn't at McLaren, he does now at Mercedes since 2017. He won't allow George Russell to win the team over without beating him on track first. Button won over Whitmarsh before winter testing in 2010 and the team shortly after.



I've read around the issue and there is no way that Schumacher would sweep Hamilton. Schumacher always made mistakes under pressure and Hamilton would have been his stiffest competition as a teammate in his entire career. Schumacher would win more seasons but Hamilton would pinch one or two.

There is a good reason that Hamilton made Alonso sweat. Too quick to be a wingman.
Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.
Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
It makes sense if you take your Hamilton blinkers off. Look at how many times he tried to get into the Red Bull team when he started losing his own team to Button. The Merc gamble was also because he was pretty much forced out of McLaren (including being lowballed by Ron Dennis himself), and he simply took the best he could get (Red Bull still didn't want him :lol: ).

pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:48 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am
Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.
He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.
You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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A.J.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:48 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am
Just confirmation of how Whitmarsh, who signed Button, allowed Button to pull the team in his direction, this is what some of us were talking about how McLaren never fully backed Hamilton in his title challenges while Hamilton was there, also why Hamilton left the team.

Today Hamilton has that, a similar kind of set up Schumacher, and he's thriving but still the criticism because his teammate, Bottas, doesn't rock the boat enough.

It's strange how criticism of Hamilton is how he wasn't able to pull a team around him like Schumacher was because he didn't gain the same level of respect within the team as Schumacher did, but when Hamilton eventually was able to do that then the criticism turns to him not having enough competition within his team.

This is mainly from Schumacher fans but they don't seem to realise they are describing most of Schumacher's career when criticising Bottas, yet another double standard.
The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.
He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.
You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Passing off opinion as facts is not cool - Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

So does Hamilton have the team around him now or not? What does having the team around you even mean?
No doubt Michael is a legend at Ferrari, the biggest. What is the same at Mercedes but with more everything, wins, titles, poles and less cheating.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:14 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am


Since 2017 - after turning 32. After a time when he has not had to deal with any inter-team competition because he's been paired with a substandard driver, so we still don't really know how he would deal with it - although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.

Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference. Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.
Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
It makes sense if you take your Hamilton blinkers off. Look at how many times he tried to get into the Red Bull team when he started losing his own team to Button. The Merc gamble was also because he was pretty much forced out of McLaren (including being lowballed by Ron Dennis himself), and he simply took the best he could get (Red Bull still didn't want him :lol: ).
Yeah in that respect he was a mercenary, he just wanted to be in the fastest car, in that situation in very much copied Senna, as soon as McLaren lost performance he wanted to be in the fastest car, the Williams, in 1993 he got blocked by Prost but then joined a year later.

In respect to Red Bull not signing Hamilton that was merely to protect Vettel and we had Horner's comment about 2 Wolf's in the henhouse. I believe Hamilton was also blocked from going to Ferrari alongside Alonso, which then leads back again to Hamilton would have been blocked from driving alongside Schumacher.

In respect to Ron Denis he actually told Mercedes that Hamilton was hard to work with in order to try and sour the milk, at this point he was getting worried and Hamilton was offered an increased pay deal which I believe was even more than the Mercedes deal, Hamilton clearly had the option of staying at McLaren to imply otherwise is nonsense.
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Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:28 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:48 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am


The criticism is that Hamilton could not galvanize the team around them - the situation post 2017 occurred due to Rosberg's retirement, and not due to any skill of Hamilton.

Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great. If someone like a Button can come into his team and take it away from under his nose, I shudder to think what Schumacher would do to his mental frame.
He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.
You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Passing off opinion as facts is not cool - Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.
Schumacher wasn't even allowed to announce his own retirement the first news was a Ferrari press release, there is a 10 year old Murray Walker interview were he says that Schumacher was sacked.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:43 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:14 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am

Ferrari would never have paired Schumacher with a driver of the quality of Hamilton, it wasn't until they'd had enough of Schumacher that they went and signed Kimi.
Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.
Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
It makes sense if you take your Hamilton blinkers off. Look at how many times he tried to get into the Red Bull team when he started losing his own team to Button. The Merc gamble was also because he was pretty much forced out of McLaren (including being lowballed by Ron Dennis himself), and he simply took the best he could get (Red Bull still didn't want him :lol: ).
Yeah in that respect he was a mercenary, he just wanted to be in the fastest car, in that situation in very much copied Senna, as soon as McLaren lost performance he wanted to be in the fastest car, the Williams, in 1993 he got blocked by Prost but then joined a year later.

In respect to Red Bull not signing Hamilton that was merely to protect Vettel and we had Horner's comment about 2 Wolf's in the henhouse. I believe Hamilton was also blocked from going to Ferrari alongside Alonso, which then leads back again to Hamilton would have been blocked from driving alongside Schumacher.

In respect to Ron Denis he actually told Mercedes that Hamilton was hard to work with in order to try and sour the milk, at this point he was getting worried and Hamilton was offered an increased pay deal which I believe was even more than the Mercedes deal, Hamilton clearly had the option of staying at McLaren to imply otherwise is nonsense.
Hamilton had the option of staying at McLaren in much the same way he had the option of going to Williams - sure, he could have signed the deal, but it simply wasn't his team anymore as Button had made it his own. Hamilton was desperate to leave at that point, and Mercedes was simply the best available option as none of the other top teams (RBR and Ferrari) would have him. Luckily for Hamilton Brawn and Schumacher and others had worked on raising the standards of the team and putting the right people together, which allowed him to reap the rewards. After Rosberg got his WDC and retired Wolff and Hamilton had to hold "clear the air" talks - none of this screams team leader to me.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:46 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:28 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:48 am

He has the team around him now but for some strange reason you don't like it, maybe because there's a need for him to fail?

The situation at McLaren, was that a flaw in Hamilton or flaw in McLaren, it's unusual to basically back the slower driver, we see what happened to McLaren after Hamilton left, in F1 you should always encourage excellence, McLaren didn't and fell into mediocrity, Button would never win another race, Whitmarsh ended up getting sacked a couple of years later.

When Hamilton joined Mercedes, Brawn clearly wanted to set up the Schumacher model with Hamilton, we saw this with the team order as early as the second race. However Rosberg is German and the bosses back in Stuttgart didn't like it, Brawn lost power within the team and left at the end of the season.

Ultimately there's little a driver can do if the powers that be don't allow a certain situation to exist as we saw with Alonso in 2007 when he got stripped of his #1 status and ultimately Schumacher at Ferrari when he got jettisoned from the team against his wishes.

In the final death throes of their careers, if we ignore Schumacher's comeback, it's looking like Hamilton will be finishing his career with far more respect shown from Mercedes than Schumacher received from Ferrari.
Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.
You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Passing off opinion as facts is not cool - Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.
Schumacher wasn't even allowed to announce his own retirement the first news was a Ferrari press release, there is a 10 year old Murray Walker interview were he says that Schumacher was sacked.
So then please state that Murray Walker thinks he was sacked (or that you think so), not that that's what actually happened.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:50 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:43 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:14 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am


Schumacher had considerably more influence at Ferrari because of his team-management skills. Hamilton is a mercenary (not my words, his teams') trying to find the fastest car instead of being involved in building it.
Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
It makes sense if you take your Hamilton blinkers off. Look at how many times he tried to get into the Red Bull team when he started losing his own team to Button. The Merc gamble was also because he was pretty much forced out of McLaren (including being lowballed by Ron Dennis himself), and he simply took the best he could get (Red Bull still didn't want him :lol: ).
Yeah in that respect he was a mercenary, he just wanted to be in the fastest car, in that situation in very much copied Senna, as soon as McLaren lost performance he wanted to be in the fastest car, the Williams, in 1993 he got blocked by Prost but then joined a year later.

In respect to Red Bull not signing Hamilton that was merely to protect Vettel and we had Horner's comment about 2 Wolf's in the henhouse. I believe Hamilton was also blocked from going to Ferrari alongside Alonso, which then leads back again to Hamilton would have been blocked from driving alongside Schumacher.

In respect to Ron Denis he actually told Mercedes that Hamilton was hard to work with in order to try and sour the milk, at this point he was getting worried and Hamilton was offered an increased pay deal which I believe was even more than the Mercedes deal, Hamilton clearly had the option of staying at McLaren to imply otherwise is nonsense.
Hamilton had the option of staying at McLaren in much the same way he had the option of going to Williams - sure, he could have signed the deal, but it simply wasn't his team anymore as Button had made it his own. Hamilton was desperate to leave at that point, and Mercedes was simply the best available option as none of the other top teams (RBR and Ferrari) would have him. Luckily for Hamilton Brawn and Schumacher and others had worked on raising the standards of the team and putting the right people together, which allowed him to reap the rewards. After Rosberg got his WDC and retired Wolff and Hamilton had to hold "clear the air" talks - none of this screams team leader to me.
How was Mercedes the best option when they had a midfield car, people being able to use hindsight becomes somewhat tiresome.

Also let's not kid ourselves that the only reason Hamilton wasn't signed to other teams was to protect the likes of Vettel and Alonso similar to how Schumacher was protected at Ferrari.`

I've already mentioned that Rosberg was protected at Mercedes from day 1 because he was German, we may use 2007 as an example and Hamilton being protected at McLaren because he was British if it helps, did that make Alonso weak?
Last edited by pokerman on Fri May 14, 2021 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:51 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:46 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:28 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:26 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am

Ah, the famous persecution complex is back again. Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight. As for Schumacher and Ferrari - he is a legend in Maranello, and the first person the team turned to when Massa was injured. It is indeed telling that large parts of the Merc team still look to give him credit for what they have achieved, despite him not being directly involved.
You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Passing off opinion as facts is not cool - Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.
Schumacher wasn't even allowed to announce his own retirement the first news was a Ferrari press release, there is a 10 year old Murray Walker interview were he says that Schumacher was sacked.
So then please state that Murray Walker thinks he was sacked (or that you think so), not that that's what actually happened.
He didn't think it he stated it as a fact, another British icon we look to dismiss perhaps?
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 11:09 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:50 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:43 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:14 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:54 am

Yes he had influence which would have prevented Hamilton from being signed, and then carried on with Bottas level teammates which seemingly is alright for Schumacher but not Hamilton.

The last bit makes no sense, Hamilton walked away from the fastest car in F1 and joined a team that had finished in the midfield, he didn't walk into the best car.
It makes sense if you take your Hamilton blinkers off. Look at how many times he tried to get into the Red Bull team when he started losing his own team to Button. The Merc gamble was also because he was pretty much forced out of McLaren (including being lowballed by Ron Dennis himself), and he simply took the best he could get (Red Bull still didn't want him :lol: ).
Yeah in that respect he was a mercenary, he just wanted to be in the fastest car, in that situation in very much copied Senna, as soon as McLaren lost performance he wanted to be in the fastest car, the Williams, in 1993 he got blocked by Prost but then joined a year later.

In respect to Red Bull not signing Hamilton that was merely to protect Vettel and we had Horner's comment about 2 Wolf's in the henhouse. I believe Hamilton was also blocked from going to Ferrari alongside Alonso, which then leads back again to Hamilton would have been blocked from driving alongside Schumacher.

In respect to Ron Denis he actually told Mercedes that Hamilton was hard to work with in order to try and sour the milk, at this point he was getting worried and Hamilton was offered an increased pay deal which I believe was even more than the Mercedes deal, Hamilton clearly had the option of staying at McLaren to imply otherwise is nonsense.
Hamilton had the option of staying at McLaren in much the same way he had the option of going to Williams - sure, he could have signed the deal, but it simply wasn't his team anymore as Button had made it his own. Hamilton was desperate to leave at that point, and Mercedes was simply the best available option as none of the other top teams (RBR and Ferrari) would have him. Luckily for Hamilton Brawn and Schumacher and others had worked on raising the standards of the team and putting the right people together, which allowed him to reap the rewards. After Rosberg got his WDC and retired Wolff and Hamilton had to hold "clear the air" talks - none of this screams team leader to me.
How was Mercedes the best option when they had a midfield car, people being able to use hindsight becomes somewhat tiresome.

Also let's not kid ourselves that the only reason Hamilton wasn't signed to other teams was to protect the likes of Vettel and Alonso similar to how Schumacher was protected at Ferrari.`

I've ready mentioned that Rosberg was protected at Mercedes from day 1 because he was German, we may use 2007 as an example and Hamilton being protected at McLaren because he was British if it helps, did that make Alonso weak?
Best AVAILABLE option - there, I bolded and capitalized it for you.

"I've ready mentioned that Rosberg was protected at Mercedes from day 1 because he was German"

That's complete nonsense - if that were the case, why was he ordered to not pass Hamilton in Malaysia 2013? This is nothing more than spreading lies and rumours.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 11:10 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:51 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:46 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:28 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:26 am

You're clearly quite driven in your negativity in your posting towards Mercedes, Hamilton and Bottas which runs from thread to thread to such an extent that it seems to cloud reasoned opinion.

Bottas is clearly very helpful to Mercedes in their title ambitions, what he does for Mercedes is what Red Bull are hoping Perez does for them, and they seem to be quite open that they see Perez being there simply to help Max, the dislike of Bottas to me seems to be that he's too helpful for Hamilton a driver that some simply don't want to see winning.

Again with Schumacher he got sacked, he wasn't ready to retire and that's why he was so keen to return in 2009 but unfortunately he didn't pass the medical because of a recent motor bike crash.
Passing off opinion as facts is not cool - Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.
Schumacher wasn't even allowed to announce his own retirement the first news was a Ferrari press release, there is a 10 year old Murray Walker interview were he says that Schumacher was sacked.
So then please state that Murray Walker thinks he was sacked (or that you think so), not that that's what actually happened.
He didn't think it he stated it as a fact, another British icon we look to dismiss perhaps?
He stated his opinion (if he did) - why is it so difficult for you to understand?

Speaking of British icons - Sir Jackie Stewart clearly thinks Hamilton isn't anywhere near being the greatest. Some food for thought for you.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
...although his rush to come back last year in Abu Dhabi shows he's still insecure about his position in the team.
Someone's projecting hard. Hamilton clearly loves racing and the team is still completely his.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
Since 2017 - after turning 32.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
Put them together at 25-27 (supposedly the "prime" of the driver) and we won't see anything other than an imploding Hamilton - even more so if this was in the era of unlimited testing, where the driver's work ethic makes a difference.

A driver's peak is not 25-27. More like 25-35. Several driver's greatest seasons happened at or around the age of 32: Stewart's 1971 (32), Piquet's 1983 (32), Prost's 1986 (31), Senna's 1993 (33), Hakkinen's 1998 (30), Schumacher's 2001 (32), Alonso's 2012 (31). We can both agree that Hamilton was not as mentally mature as Schumacher at an earlier age but it's harsh to hold long-existing mental complexes against a driver. They always existed and Hamilton can probably do little about it.

Where was the implosion in 2007 though? The only person that imploded with Alonso aged 26 although we can both agree that team building wasn't his greatest strength and things went sour in a way they didn't with Schumacher.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:19 am
Hamilton has speed, yes - but not much else.
A lazy trope. His feedback has been instrumental in the development of Mercedes since the 2017 regulation changes, they made the package better together than it would have been without him.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:26 am
Hamilton simply lacks the ability to get the team to rally around him - a critical flaw in his claim to be an all-time great.
Absolute rubbish, this incarnation of Mercedes is symbiotic not some mercenary model like Williams employed from 1991-1997. You are rewriting history as if Hamilton is some kind of fraud.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:12 am
Hamilton was unable to build any team he's been around him, and the only reason Mercedes backs him today is that Bottas is too slow to be of any use in a championship fight.
A very unfair and uncharitable explanation. Mercedes was built around both drivers from 2013-2016 and then they deliberately backed Hamilton and built the team around him and his feedback. First time that had happened since 2008, an advantage Schumacher enjoyed from 1995-2006.
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:28 am
Schumacher publicly stated his batteries were empty, and the only reason he came back was due to the ban on testing which meant he wouldn't need to commit to the sport the same way as before. Publicly available information, and not exactly difficult to find.
Sounds like a post-hoc explanation if I ever heard one. I believe Raikkonen had a pre-contract with Ferrari which LdM wanted to take up and Schumacher retired rather than face Raikkonen head on.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by DOLOMITE »

Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Schumacher actually claims it was more like it was with Rosberg. He had done all he could and couldn't commit to doing it all again. Meanwhile LdM got tired of waiting and signed Raikkonen anyway.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Agree with every word.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:52 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Agree with every word.
Me too, but I also think it was in combination of running on pretty much empty

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:52 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Agree with every word.
Me too, but I also think it was in combination of running on pretty much empty
Yes he was 37 which seems to be the most common age for drivers who actually chose to retire to retire at.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no - we don't really know why Schumacher made the decision he made. He similarly dawdled with the contract extension with Merc in 2012, when he was unsure of whether he wanted to continue and Brawn made the decision for him, in a way. I consider both the situations to be very similar.

Although it is also clear to me that Schumacher would have made short work of Kimi and the 2007/2008 titles - but I don't know if it would have really done much more to enhance his status. 5 titles or 7 or 9, he established his greatness in the late 90's/early 00's - the championships beyond a point stop mattering in the GOAT conversation (just as Hamilton likely winning this year doesn't change much).

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
...but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005.
Raikkonen was something pretty special in those McLarens on Michelin tyres and I've read strong arguments that he was the best driver in the sport from 2003-2006. The control tyre era just really didn't suit him because he refused to change his driving style. Schumacher might have struggled a little more than he had on the control Bridgestones but not enough to give Raikkonen a sniff.

Raikkonen is very like Vettel in this regard. Strong at a certain place and time with cars with certain favoured characteristics but unwilling (or unable) to adapt as the sport evolves.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:32 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no - we don't really know why Schumacher made the decision he made. He similarly dawdled with the contract extension with Merc in 2012, when he was unsure of whether he wanted to continue and Brawn made the decision for him, in a way. I consider both the situations to be very similar.

Although it is also clear to me that Schumacher would have made short work of Kimi and the 2007/2008 titles - but I don't know if it would have really done much more to enhance his status. 5 titles or 7 or 9, he established his greatness in the late 90's/early 00's - the championships beyond a point stop mattering in the GOAT conversation (just as Hamilton likely winning this year doesn't change much).
Kimi would have ticked off the highly rated team mate box. Kimi was so highly rated back in 2006, if Schumacher had taken the gloss off of Kimi (instead of Massa) it would have massively enhanced his status and ended the “never had a good team mate” which is Schumachers biggest criticism in the GOAT argument.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

As I understand it, Schumacher's exit in 2006 was a combination of all the things mentioned earlier.
  • He was undecided about extending his contract
  • He was running on empty
  • LDM did essentially overthrow him and the dream team
  • His retirement announcement was forced on him before he could announce it himself
  • Kimi was signed as a future replacement giving Schumacher the choice of either retiring or staying with Kimi
Kimi was actually signed on a pre-contract in mid 2005. Schumacher's autumn was well underway so it was time to look around. He was already talking about retirement to the media during that unhappy season. Before the 2006 season his position was something like if the car can fight for the championship then he'll stay but if it's like the 2005 car then he'll retire. If you're thinking in those terms, it's probably time to just retire anyway. The first half of 2006 wasn't very competitive. I think Schumacher's feet dragging just made LDM activate Kimi's contract and I can understand that.

I DON'T believe he left to save Massa. He's never been that generous in competition! It was probably just a happy side effect of retiring, that's all.

Also worth noting that you never heard or sensed anything was troubled at the team (retirement announcement excluded). Given how 2007 went for Alonso and how Hamilton fell out with McLaren, it was tremendously professional of Schumacher while Alonso was simultaneously (and falsely) accusing Renault of not supporting him. I wonder how much of an impact it had on Schumacher's on track performances. If none, that's a huge testament to him. If it did impact his performances, he was still at a very high level.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Todt, Brawn and co were intelligent team leaders. They knew how badly Schumacher dealt with serious competition and losing close fights. So, they provided him with the environment Schumacher needed: the undisputed No. 1, with the team centering around him and (comparatively) weak No. 2 drivers. And that was brilliant as they created a dream team.

With Hamilton, there was no need to center the whole team solely around him as his performance was comparatively unimpressed by competition, sometimes even upping his performance level. This allowed for stronger teammates for overall team performance. Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.

Hamilton proved he can deal with star teammates. Schumacher never did so. Prime Hamilton would be largely unfazed by facing Schumacher as a teammate. Prime Schumacher would quickly revert to his usual antics under pressure of a quality teammate. Hamilton would win this duel of giants, most likely.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Until Massa they didn't go out of the way to sign weak teammates for Schumacher. Both Barrichello and Irvine were probably the best drivers available at the time of their signing.

Even Massa was only signed as a stop gap for Kimi.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.
What records did Hamilton hold or break when he had a top driver alongside him? As far as I’m aware, none. He might have held some obscure records here and there, but none of the significant ones.

Hamilton began breaking records when Bottas became his teammate, a fairly average driver who has been kept on a short leash with one-year contracts.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Option or Prime »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:29 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.
What records did Hamilton hold or break when he had a top driver alongside him? As far as I’m aware, none. He might have held some obscure records here and there, but none of the significant ones.

Hamilton began breaking records when Bottas became his teammate, a fairly average driver who has been kept on a short leash with one-year contracts.
Sorry, but that is a confused comment in my view, no-one breaks records until they have won a quota of races, When Hamilton won the WDC in 2008 he was 23 years, 300 days that was broken by Vettel 2 years later. Schumacher was 25 years, 314 days when he won the WDC. That's one example younger WDC in 2008.

How can you break a record for the most wins for example held by MS at 91 until you have had 92 wins? What about the wins with Rosberg as a team mate? He was also winning races in 2007 with Aloso as a teammate.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:29 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.
What records did Hamilton hold or break when he had a top driver alongside him? As far as I’m aware, none. He might have held some obscure records here and there, but none of the significant ones.

Hamilton began breaking records when Bottas became his teammate, a fairly average driver who has been kept on a short leash with one-year contracts.
2007 - Youngest driver to lead the championship
2007 - Youngest driver to win a race
2007 - most consecutive podiums in a debut season
2007 - most wins in a debut season (joint with JV, but JV had easily the best car and a weaker team mate)
2007 - most poles in a debut season
2007- the only driver in history to finish ahead of a reigning WDC team mate in his debut season

As for the records being broken when he had Bottas as a team mate, that's a no brainer. You set records later in your career (except for "youngest" ones. If he had kept his win-rate/championship win rate against Rosberg over 2014-2016 he would also have broken all of those records too.

Pre-F1, Hamilton still holds the record for most wins in an F3 season and until recently held the most podiums in a GP2/F2 season too.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:29 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.
What records did Hamilton hold or break when he had a top driver alongside him? As far as I’m aware, none. He might have held some obscure records here and there, but none of the significant ones.

Hamilton began breaking records when Bottas became his teammate, a fairly average driver who has been kept on a short leash with one-year contracts.
:thumbup:

Hamilton not needing to be comforted by the team? Did people just forget how desperate he was in running away from McLaren when he saw the team was giving an equal focus to Button? A decidedly average driver like Button stepped in and made Hamilton's team his own - but yet some would like to believe that Hamilton would stand his own against Schumacher in the same team. Pipe dream or delusion, take your pick.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 1:35 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:29 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Hamilton just does not need to be comforted by the whole team like Schumacher in order to rack up the records - that is a strength of him.
What records did Hamilton hold or break when he had a top driver alongside him? As far as I’m aware, none. He might have held some obscure records here and there, but none of the significant ones.

Hamilton began breaking records when Bottas became his teammate, a fairly average driver who has been kept on a short leash with one-year contracts.
2007 - Youngest driver to lead the championship
2007 - Youngest driver to win a race
2007 - most consecutive podiums in a debut season
2007 - most wins in a debut season (joint with JV, but JV had easily the best car and a weaker team mate)
2007 - most poles in a debut season
2007- the only driver in history to finish ahead of a reigning WDC team mate in his debut season

As for the records being broken when he had Bottas as a team mate, that's a no brainer. You set records later in your career (except for "youngest" ones. If he had kept his win-rate/championship win rate against Rosberg over 2014-2016 he would also have broken all of those records too.

Pre-F1, Hamilton still holds the record for most wins in an F3 season and until recently held the most podiums in a GP2/F2 season too.
None of these "records" count for much - JV would have had more wins than Hamilton in his debut season if not for the inter-team collusion at Jerez 1997, yet I don't see people putting his name forward as a GOAT (and he had a WDC teammate as well to boot).

Plus Vettel holds most of these records now, and he's also dispatched a WDC teammate in Kimi - fortunately there is more nuance to this conversation than holding the youngest whatever "record".

As for him breaking records with Bottas as his team-mate - that's an absolute fact. He should already be on 8 titles, except that he lost one season to Rosberg. If Rosberg had continued I'm sure Hamilton would have FAR fewer wins, and likely 1-2 fewer titles as well. He has a sub-standard team-mate who is also handicapped with a 1 yr contract for 5 years running - that's a fact.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

This is getting a bit ridiculous. If Hamilton is breaking the records such as most wins whilst he has been against Bottas it's because he scored a hell of a lot of wins before he was teamed with Bottas to put him in the position to break the records.

I'm on the Schumacher side of this argument but reducing yourself to raising such absurd points to try and knock Hamilton weakens the case for Schumacher, it doesn't strengthen it.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:24 am
As for him breaking records with Bottas as his team-mate - that's an absolute fact.
Schumacher broke the majority of his records alongside Barrichello. Not to mention Schumacher the explicit "focus" of the team in his contract, exclusive access to the T-car and priority on mechanical upgrades. Also Schumacher found Barrichello's experitise in setting up the Ferrari cars invaluable and it helped him immensly during his poor half-season in late 2003 where he could have lost the title to Raikkonen in the 3rd best car.

Let's stop pretending Schumacher didn't have weaknesses.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:01 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:24 am
As for him breaking records with Bottas as his team-mate - that's an absolute fact.
Schumacher broke the majority of his records alongside Barrichello. Not to mention Schumacher the explicit "focus" of the team in his contract, exclusive access to the T-car and priority on mechanical upgrades. Also Schumacher found Barrichello's experitise in setting up the Ferrari cars invaluable and it helped him immensly during his poor half-season in late 2003 where he could have lost the title to Raikkonen in the 3rd best car.

Let's stop pretending Schumacher didn't have weaknesses.
He most certainly did - and they are all well-documented, as are Hamilton's. The argument is whether despite these weaknesses he would have the upper hand on Hamilton, and the answer to that is indisputably yes (at least to me). Keeping their immense talent aside, Schumacher comes out much further ahead when it comes to his work ethic and team-building abilities - things we simply haven't seen from Hamilton (and no, post 2017 alone doesn't count as he hasn't "built" anything there with a substandard teammate kept on a short leash - put a top driver alongside him and watch this facade disappear).

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:27 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:32 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no - we don't really know why Schumacher made the decision he made. He similarly dawdled with the contract extension with Merc in 2012, when he was unsure of whether he wanted to continue and Brawn made the decision for him, in a way. I consider both the situations to be very similar.

Although it is also clear to me that Schumacher would have made short work of Kimi and the 2007/2008 titles - but I don't know if it would have really done much more to enhance his status. 5 titles or 7 or 9, he established his greatness in the late 90's/early 00's - the championships beyond a point stop mattering in the GOAT conversation (just as Hamilton likely winning this year doesn't change much).
Kimi would have ticked off the highly rated team mate box. Kimi was so highly rated back in 2006, if Schumacher had taken the gloss off of Kimi (instead of Massa) it would have massively enhanced his status and ended the “never had a good team mate” which is Schumachers biggest criticism in the GOAT argument.
Given how it panned out, it is clear Schumacher would have dispatched Kimi with ease. In fact it is clear that Schumacher would have dispatched any driver with ease, that's just how far ahead of everyone else he was. If Schumacher stayed on, Kimi never becomes a champion and we hear this same argument about how his teammates were not good enough.

The "never had a good team mate" argument is only put forward by Schumacher's detractors who somehow seem to forget how highly rated Barrichello was prior to joining Ferrari.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm
...and the answer to that is indisputably yes (at least to me).
I concur but less emphatically. Schumacher gets ahead only because of his performances for 1996-1998 which were absolutely incredible against two dominant Williams and a very good McLaren.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm
Keeping their immense talent aside, Schumacher comes out much further ahead when it comes to his work ethic and team-building abilities
You can have all the work ethic you like, but it's well documented that Barrichello provided greatly superior feedback to Schumacher during the years of Ferrari domination. Also his teambuilding powers are also overstated, he was clearly a charismatic and charming guy but Ferrari were after Newey in 1997 but he refused to join the team because he thought Schumacher was a cheat. They got Byrne as sloppy seconds because of Schumacher. Hardly a team builder to the degree portrayed.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm
...things we simply haven't seen from Hamilton (and no, post 2017 alone doesn't count as he hasn't "built" anything there with a substandard teammate kept on a short leash - put a top driver alongside him and watch this facade disappear).
It beggar's belief you still think this argument is anything other than rank hypocrisy. Irvine and Barrichello are at worst the same level of driver as Bottas. As for the "short leash", the advantages Schumacher enjoyed are greater than any Hamilton has had over Bottas.

Both of these criticisms are profoundly hypocritical. LdM wanted Hakkinen and Schumacher blocked him because he was a coward.
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