Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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Schermerhorn
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:02 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:52 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Agree with every word.
Me too, but I also think it was in combination of running on pretty much empty
Yes he was 37 which seems to be the most common age for drivers who actually chose to retire to retire at.
It's also the age when many athletes become "shot". I know in F1 it's different and largely dependent on the car and machinery but in boxing, for instance, the ages of 37/38 seem to be the crossover year when your body no longer can perform at the same level as before; Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson were all pretty much washed up or on the verge of becoming cannon fodder for younger fighters around that age.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:17 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:27 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:32 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no - we don't really know why Schumacher made the decision he made. He similarly dawdled with the contract extension with Merc in 2012, when he was unsure of whether he wanted to continue and Brawn made the decision for him, in a way. I consider both the situations to be very similar.

Although it is also clear to me that Schumacher would have made short work of Kimi and the 2007/2008 titles - but I don't know if it would have really done much more to enhance his status. 5 titles or 7 or 9, he established his greatness in the late 90's/early 00's - the championships beyond a point stop mattering in the GOAT conversation (just as Hamilton likely winning this year doesn't change much).
Kimi would have ticked off the highly rated team mate box. Kimi was so highly rated back in 2006, if Schumacher had taken the gloss off of Kimi (instead of Massa) it would have massively enhanced his status and ended the “never had a good team mate” which is Schumachers biggest criticism in the GOAT argument.
Given how it panned out, it is clear Schumacher would have dispatched Kimi with ease. In fact it is clear that Schumacher would have dispatched any driver with ease, that's just how far ahead of everyone else he was. If Schumacher stayed on, Kimi never becomes a champion and we hear this same argument about how his teammates were not good enough.

The "never had a good team mate" argument is only put forward by Schumacher's detractors who somehow seem to forget how highly rated Barrichello was prior to joining Ferrari.
Thats simply not true and a miss telling of history. Raikkonen and Alonso were highly rated, people thought that Kimi might even be quicker than Schumacher at that moment.

Raikkonen had battled for the title in both 2003 and 2005 and thrashed Coulthard and Montoya in the process. Montoya himself rated as one of the best. Raikkonen is no comparison for Irvine or Barrichello who were just talented midfield drivers. Barrichello was a talented midfielder, seven years in the sport and no top team had ever come in for him. Kimi could quite easily have arrived at Ferrari in 2007 as a double champion already.

It is not clear that Schumacher would have dispatched Alonso with ease in 2007/08 if both in Ferrari if he had equal treatment.

Barrichello was also a number 2 which was clear by the team orders and who got the new parts if only one was available.

Barrichello and Irvine and simply not top drivers, neither is a Brundle, Verstappen, JJ Lehto or an old injured Piquet.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

As an example of other greats-

Prost went head to head with Senna, Mansell and Lauda
Senna went head to head with Prost
Fangio head to head with Moss
Hamilton head to head with Alonso as well as Button and Rosberg
Piquet head to head with Mansell

The only champion Michael faced was Rosberg. He never had such a talented team mate, Barrichello was good but he was also a number 2.

Ferrari never signed Montoya, Raikkonen or Alonso over 2002-2006 because Michael did a good enough job on his own with a good number 2 next to him. The same as why Mercedes have not signed Verstappen, Leclerc or Russell over 2017-2021.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:21 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm
Keeping their immense talent aside, Schumacher comes out much further ahead when it comes to his work ethic and team-building abilities
You can have all the work ethic you like, but it's well documented that Barrichello provided greatly superior feedback to Schumacher during the years of Ferrari domination. Also his teambuilding powers are also overstated, he was clearly a charismatic and charming guy but Ferrari were after Newey in 1997 but he refused to join the team because he thought Schumacher was a cheat. They got Byrne as sloppy seconds because of Schumacher. Hardly a team builder to the degree portrayed.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:09 pm
...things we simply haven't seen from Hamilton (and no, post 2017 alone doesn't count as he hasn't "built" anything there with a substandard teammate kept on a short leash - put a top driver alongside him and watch this facade disappear).
It beggar's belief you still think this argument is anything other than rank hypocrisy. Irvine and Barrichello are at worst the same level of driver as Bottas. As for the "short leash", the advantages Schumacher enjoyed are greater than any Hamilton has had over Bottas.

Both of these criticisms are profoundly hypocritical. LdM wanted Hakkinen and Schumacher blocked him because he was a coward.
F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:21 pm
You can have all the work ethic you like, but it's well documented that Barrichello provided greatly superior feedback to Schumacher during the years of Ferrari domination. Also his teambuilding powers are also overstated, he was clearly a charismatic and charming guy but Ferrari were after Newey in 1997 but he refused to join the team because he thought Schumacher was a cheat. They got Byrne as sloppy seconds because of Schumacher. Hardly a team builder to the degree portrayed.
Wow, this is bordering on the ridiculous - Newey didn't join primarily because he didn't want to move to Maranello. His first marriage failed because he moved to the US, and he didn't want to uproot his family again. And in his own book Newey says he thought working with Schumacher would be disrespectful to Senna at that point (your comment is a fabrication) - even if it were true that he didn't join because of Schumacher, what does that tell you about Schumacher's importance to the team? That they would rather have him than Adrian Newey.


F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:21 pm
It beggar's belief you still think this argument is anything other than rank hypocrisy. Irvine and Barrichello are at worst the same level of driver as Bottas. As for the "short leash", the advantages Schumacher enjoyed are greater than any Hamilton has had over Bottas.
Both of these criticisms are profoundly hypocritical. LdM wanted Hakkinen and Schumacher blocked him because he was a coward.
Hamilton threatened to quit the Mercedes team midway through the 2016 season - you are living in dreamland if you think this man is a team-builder of any sort. The only reasons he's not thrown his toys out of the pram yet is because (a) the Mercs are dominant, and (b) Bottas is decidedly a second-rate driver.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 1:46 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:17 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:27 pm
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 4:32 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:42 pm
Its pretty clear Schumacher jumped to avoid a head to head with Raikkonen, ironic because Schumacher would have thrashed Raikkonen in 2007 and 2008 but everybody thought Kimi was something super special over 2003-2005. Michael painted this as he retired to "save Massa's seat" and yes they were friends, but when did Michael ever self-sacrifice, he was an elite winner. He hung around in the pits as a driver "adviser" over 2007 and was continuing to test the car over 2007/2008. It was pretty clear Michael would have stayed for 2007 if Massa would have been his team mate.

If Michael had beaten down Raikkonen over 2007 and 2009 and gone with 9 titles at the end of 2008, Hamilton would not be in the same conversation as Michael. However, the poor come back, the running from an equal team mate really pulled Michaels reputation down a bit.

There is no shame running from a top young driver when you are approaching 40. I think Hamilton would be tempted to jump from Mercedes at the end of 2023 if they had Max signed. He also would not come out and say the real reason in public.

Teams need to sign the next superstar to keep the run going, if Ferrari had gone with Alonso instead of Kimi the run would have kept on for many year. They chose the wrong man and to an extent never recovered.
Perhaps yes, perhaps no - we don't really know why Schumacher made the decision he made. He similarly dawdled with the contract extension with Merc in 2012, when he was unsure of whether he wanted to continue and Brawn made the decision for him, in a way. I consider both the situations to be very similar.

Although it is also clear to me that Schumacher would have made short work of Kimi and the 2007/2008 titles - but I don't know if it would have really done much more to enhance his status. 5 titles or 7 or 9, he established his greatness in the late 90's/early 00's - the championships beyond a point stop mattering in the GOAT conversation (just as Hamilton likely winning this year doesn't change much).
Kimi would have ticked off the highly rated team mate box. Kimi was so highly rated back in 2006, if Schumacher had taken the gloss off of Kimi (instead of Massa) it would have massively enhanced his status and ended the “never had a good team mate” which is Schumachers biggest criticism in the GOAT argument.
Given how it panned out, it is clear Schumacher would have dispatched Kimi with ease. In fact it is clear that Schumacher would have dispatched any driver with ease, that's just how far ahead of everyone else he was. If Schumacher stayed on, Kimi never becomes a champion and we hear this same argument about how his teammates were not good enough.

The "never had a good team mate" argument is only put forward by Schumacher's detractors who somehow seem to forget how highly rated Barrichello was prior to joining Ferrari.
Thats simply not true and a miss telling of history. Raikkonen and Alonso were highly rated, people thought that Kimi might even be quicker than Schumacher at that moment.

Raikkonen had battled for the title in both 2003 and 2005 and thrashed Coulthard and Montoya in the process. Montoya himself rated as one of the best. Raikkonen is no comparison for Irvine or Barrichello who were just talented midfield drivers. Barrichello was a talented midfielder, seven years in the sport and no top team had ever come in for him. Kimi could quite easily have arrived at Ferrari in 2007 as a double champion already.

It is not clear that Schumacher would have dispatched Alonso with ease in 2007/08 if both in Ferrari if he had equal treatment.

Barrichello was also a number 2 which was clear by the team orders and who got the new parts if only one was available.

Barrichello and Irvine and simply not top drivers, neither is a Brundle, Verstappen, JJ Lehto or an old injured Piquet.
What part of what I said is "simply not true"? Schumacher would have easily had the measure of Raikkonen if he had stayed on - it is obvious to pretty much everyone. I don't know where Alonso comes into this conversation, as I didn't bring him up and there was never any talk of him joining Ferrari then.

Barrichello absolutely was considered a top driver when he was signed for Ferrari - you're being revisionist if you argue otherwise.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Yes, Schumacher would have had the measure of Raikkonen but Raikkonen would still have been the best team mate he ever had and first truly top talent that Ferrari signed alongside him.

Alonso comes into it, because you said Schumacher would have "dispatched any driver with ease" that joined Ferrari for 2007. Alonso falls under that, no?

The other thing I forgot to mention was the car Barrichello had was a joke. Over Schumachers championship run, Michael had 1 mechanical DNF. Barrichello had 8 or 9.

If Barrichello was a top driver in 2000, then Bottas was in 2017. Although for me, neither were top driver. Barrichello was very close to Irvine in there partnership. Do you see Barrichello in the company of the names I mentioned for the other greats who partnered drivers like Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Lauda etc etc. Barrichello is nowhere near that company.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

And if Raikkonen partners Schumacher and gets thrashed (as was likely), he doesn't make it to the WDCs club either - and we will be having this exact same conversation. There is no arguing with this type of circular logic.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by carvala »

Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:22 pm
And if Raikkonen partners Schumacher and gets thrashed (as was likely), he doesn't make it to the WDCs club either - and we will be having this exact same conversation. There is no arguing with this type of circular logic.
No we would not because what Raikkonen did before pairing with Schumacher is far in excess of anything any of Schumachers team mates did before or after pairing with him (except Rosberg).

There is no comparison between Irvine, Barrichello and Raikkonen in their pre Ferrari days. That's why Irvine and Barrichello were paid number 2 wages and about 1/10th of Schumacher, while Raikkonen was the highest paid man in F1 when he signed for Ferrari and on Schumachers level of pay.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
While I agree with the sentiment, it ties in with the theme of this topic - Bottas being more successful than drivers like Berger/Barrichello et al is another reflection of how much Hamilton's success is down to the car than his own skills. At least 5 titles (and counting) are solely down to dominance of the car (and I'm being charitable excluding 2017) - when all the Merc driver needs to do is beat the other guy.

There is no point talking about contemporaries when they are only allowed to bring a knife to a gun fight.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
Berger was considered a very good driver, top 5-6 on the grid but not the top tier of Senna, Prost, Mansell and Schumacher. Everybody knew that Berger was not there to win the title, so he got no hate. The same as Irvine never got hate.

Barrichello also avoided such hate until Schumacher was in the middle of the championship run and people become frustrated because no other cars can challenge the dominant driver, they want the team mate too as its the only hope for a title challenge. Nobody cared about Bottas in 2017 and 2018 because Vettel was challenging for the title.

People forget that Ferrari were trying to sign Bottas for the 2016 season.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
What part of what I said is "simply not true"? Schumacher would have easily had the measure of Raikkonen if he had stayed on - it is obvious to pretty much everyone. I don't know where Alonso comes into this conversation, as I didn't bring him up and there was never any talk of him joining Ferrari then.
Typical reductionist rubbish. Raikkonen almost beat Schumacher in the third best car in 2003 and Schumacher needed a lot of help from Barrichello to set that car up to be competitive. Raikkonen would have really pushed Schumacher's abilities to the limit if they fought in McLaren on Michelins.

For the era on that tyre, Raikkonen was either the best or second best driver between 2003-2006. Control tyres and his unadaptable driving style really screwed him in his post-2007 career.

Even for 2007, Raikkonen struggled with the Ferrari handling characteristics and Bridgestone tyres. However, there is absolutely no guarantee that Schumacher would have got to grips with the control tyres of 2007 which were old tech. I think their partnership is the closest Schumacher ever had because he was notorious for mistakes under pressure and had got into bad habits while driving with a mechanical advantage from 2000-2004.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
Barrichello absolutely was considered a top driver when he was signed for Ferrari - you're being revisionist if you argue otherwise.
Yeah strong for 1999 which is part of one of the weakest grids in history from post-Imola 1994-2002. There is absolutely no comparison. The 2007-2021 grid is by far the strongest since the early 1970s and mid to late-1980s.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:45 pm
carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
While I agree with the sentiment, it ties in with the theme of this topic - Bottas being more successful than drivers like Berger/Barrichello et al is another reflection of how much Hamilton's success is down to the car than his own skills. At least 5 titles (and counting) are solely down to dominance of the car (and I'm being charitable excluding 2017) - when all the Merc driver needs to do is beat the other guy.

There is no point talking about contemporaries when they are only allowed to bring a knife to a gun fight.
Kind of rich coming from someone fighting the Schumacher cause.

- Schumacher got new parts before his team mate. Mercedes have never done that, they delay updates until both cars have them. Schumacher even got an entire new seasons car before Barrichello in two seasons. Schumacher also got the newer chassis and Barrichello always started the season with the chassis that did the majority of pre season.

- Schumachers team mates had horrible reliability compared to him. Barrichello had 8 or 9 mechanical DNFs over Schumachers title run. Schumacher had one. Hamilton has not enjoyed anything like this and even lost a title to having worse reliability than his team mate.

- Barrichello was often thrown under the bus strategy wise. Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race).

- Barrichello drove in Michaels team, you have said it yourself. Michael was a team builder and it was his team and the people running it were his people from Benetton. Bottas drives for Mercedes.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
What part of what I said is "simply not true"? Schumacher would have easily had the measure of Raikkonen if he had stayed on - it is obvious to pretty much everyone. I don't know where Alonso comes into this conversation, as I didn't bring him up and there was never any talk of him joining Ferrari then.
Typical reductionist rubbish. Raikkonen almost beat Schumacher in the third best car in 2003 and Schumacher needed a lot of help from Barrichello to set that car up to be competitive. Raikkonen would have really pushed Schumacher's abilities to the limit if they fought in McLaren on Michelins.

For the era on that tyre, Raikkonen was either the best or second best driver between 2003-2006. Control tyres and his unadaptable driving style really screwed him in his post-2007 career.

Even for 2007, Raikkonen struggled with the Ferrari handling characteristics and Bridgestone tyres. However, there is absolutely no guarantee that Schumacher would have got to grips with the control tyres of 2007 which were old tech. I think their partnership is the closest Schumacher ever had because he was notorious for mistakes under pressure and had got into bad habits while driving with a mechanical advantage from 2000-2004.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
Barrichello absolutely was considered a top driver when he was signed for Ferrari - you're being revisionist if you argue otherwise.
Yeah strong for 1999 which is part of one of the weakest grids in history from post-Imola 1994-2002. There is absolutely no comparison. The 2007-2021 grid is by far the strongest since the early 1970s and mid to late-1980s.
"Typical reductionist rubbish"

Rich coming from a guy who was caught fabricating stuff about Newey, just in the last post. Forgive me if I start to take your comments less seriously.

Your comment is literally all conjecture, and yet you manage to sound patronizing. I can also start claiming things at random and make my arguments around those claims if that's the game we're playing.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:45 pm
carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
While I agree with the sentiment, it ties in with the theme of this topic - Bottas being more successful than drivers like Berger/Barrichello et al is another reflection of how much Hamilton's success is down to the car than his own skills. At least 5 titles (and counting) are solely down to dominance of the car (and I'm being charitable excluding 2017) - when all the Merc driver needs to do is beat the other guy.

There is no point talking about contemporaries when they are only allowed to bring a knife to a gun fight.
Kind of rich coming from someone fighting the Schumacher cause.

- Schumacher got new parts before his team mate. Mercedes have never done that, they delay updates until both cars have them. Schumacher even got an entire new seasons car before Barrichello in two seasons. Schumacher also got the newer chassis and Barrichello always started the season with the chassis that did the majority of pre season.

- Schumachers team mates had horrible reliability compared to him. Barrichello had 8 or 9 mechanical DNFs over Schumachers title run. Schumacher had one. Hamilton has not enjoyed anything like this and even lost a title to having worse reliability than his team mate.

- Barrichello was often thrown under the bus strategy wise. Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race).

- Barrichello drove in Michaels team, you have said it yourself. Michael was a team builder and it was his team and the people running it were his people from Benetton. Bottas drives for Mercedes.
"Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race)."

Yeah yeah, that's why in Monaco 2016 Rosberg was letting Hamilton by (which was eventually the reason he won) - even though every logic dictated that he should have been doing all to keep Hamilton behind for his own title bid. This type of sanctimonious and hypocritical crap is exactly why Hamilton gets panned.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:49 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
What part of what I said is "simply not true"? Schumacher would have easily had the measure of Raikkonen if he had stayed on - it is obvious to pretty much everyone. I don't know where Alonso comes into this conversation, as I didn't bring him up and there was never any talk of him joining Ferrari then.
Typical reductionist rubbish. Raikkonen almost beat Schumacher in the third best car in 2003 and Schumacher needed a lot of help from Barrichello to set that car up to be competitive. Raikkonen would have really pushed Schumacher's abilities to the limit if they fought in McLaren on Michelins.

For the era on that tyre, Raikkonen was either the best or second best driver between 2003-2006. Control tyres and his unadaptable driving style really screwed him in his post-2007 career.

Even for 2007, Raikkonen struggled with the Ferrari handling characteristics and Bridgestone tyres. However, there is absolutely no guarantee that Schumacher would have got to grips with the control tyres of 2007 which were old tech. I think their partnership is the closest Schumacher ever had because he was notorious for mistakes under pressure and had got into bad habits while driving with a mechanical advantage from 2000-2004.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:05 pm
Barrichello absolutely was considered a top driver when he was signed for Ferrari - you're being revisionist if you argue otherwise.
Yeah strong for 1999 which is part of one of the weakest grids in history from post-Imola 1994-2002. There is absolutely no comparison. The 2007-2021 grid is by far the strongest since the early 1970s and mid to late-1980s.
Yes, this is a point I was going to make. That grid between 1994-2000 was awful. Every driver that looked promising during that era later got quite easily beaten by one of the new generation (2000 onwards) of Alonso, Raikkonen, Button or Montoya.

The only exception is Hakkinen who was strong for a short period before burning out.

When the next generation of talent arrived (Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg) the older generation of Alonso, Button and Raikkonen were very strong against them. Unlike the 1990's guys before them.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:55 pm
Your comment is literally all conjecture, and yet you manage to sound patronizing. I can also start claiming things at random and make my arguments around those claims if that's the game we're playing.
I think we've finally reached the point where further discussion is pointless.

To clarify my position:
  • I feel Schumacher would have had a small edge on Hamilton and was the better and more influential driver.
  • Hamilton raced in a much stronger field during his peak with Schumacher's contempories only catching up in 2003-2006.
  • Schumacher and Hamilton have both enjoyed a mechanical advantage over the field with Hamilton's period of unassailably dominant cars being longer (2001-2002, 2004 vs 2014-2016, 2019-2020).
  • Hamilton had stronger teammates than Schumacher and it remains to be seen how Schumacher would have coped with intra-team competition given he retired before Raikkonen arrived.
  • Schumacher enjoyed more preferential treatment at Ferrari than Hamilton has at Mercedes.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:58 pm
Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:45 pm
carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
While I agree with the sentiment, it ties in with the theme of this topic - Bottas being more successful than drivers like Berger/Barrichello et al is another reflection of how much Hamilton's success is down to the car than his own skills. At least 5 titles (and counting) are solely down to dominance of the car (and I'm being charitable excluding 2017) - when all the Merc driver needs to do is beat the other guy.

There is no point talking about contemporaries when they are only allowed to bring a knife to a gun fight.
Kind of rich coming from someone fighting the Schumacher cause.

- Schumacher got new parts before his team mate. Mercedes have never done that, they delay updates until both cars have them. Schumacher even got an entire new seasons car before Barrichello in two seasons. Schumacher also got the newer chassis and Barrichello always started the season with the chassis that did the majority of pre season.

- Schumachers team mates had horrible reliability compared to him. Barrichello had 8 or 9 mechanical DNFs over Schumachers title run. Schumacher had one. Hamilton has not enjoyed anything like this and even lost a title to having worse reliability than his team mate.

- Barrichello was often thrown under the bus strategy wise. Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race).

- Barrichello drove in Michaels team, you have said it yourself. Michael was a team builder and it was his team and the people running it were his people from Benetton. Bottas drives for Mercedes.
"Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race)."

Yeah yeah, that's why in Monaco 2016 Rosberg was letting Hamilton by (which was eventually the reason he won) - even though every logic dictated that he should have been doing all to keep Hamilton behind for his own title bid. This type of sanctimonious and hypocritical crap is exactly why Hamilton gets panned.
Yes when 1 car is lapping 4 seconds a lap quicker they did move 1 car over. Is that your only point of disagreement in that list then? But yes, standard Mercedes policy for both drivers. They maximise the team result each race, Monaco was a success for that policy.

We agree on the other points?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm
The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.
Surely Verstappen over Raikkonen? Kimi has won 1 race over the period. Verstappen 11. Leclerc 3. Ricciardo too has 7 wins

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm
The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.
Surely Verstappen over Raikkonen? Kimi has won 1 race over the period. Verstappen 11. Leclerc 3. Ricciardo too has 7 wins
And yet none of them have ever fought Hamilton for the championship. Which is exactly what mikeyg123 said.

Even out of these, the one and only credible challenge from outside was Vettel in 2018, and we all know how spectacularly that collapsed.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:00 pm
Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm
The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.
Surely Verstappen over Raikkonen? Kimi has won 1 race over the period. Verstappen 11. Leclerc 3. Ricciardo too has 7 wins
And yet none of them have ever fought Hamilton for the championship. Which is exactly what mikeyg123 said.

Even out of these, the one and only credible challenge from outside was Vettel in 2018, and we all know how spectacularly that collapsed.
No he said "championship wins" otherwise, why is Raikkonen there. He has never battled Hamilton for a championship since 2014. Bottas has never battled Hamilton for a title either.

Do you not rate Rosberg at all then? Better or worse than Barrichello?

Also, everything is "so far", Hamilton still has quite a few years left to change your mind. Unless you have already decided? He can easily have championship challenges from Verstappen (highly likely this year) or Leclerc or Russell in the comings year. Maybe he will change your mind. :thumbup:

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 11:52 am
This is getting a bit ridiculous. If Hamilton is breaking the records such as most wins whilst he has been against Bottas it's because he scored a hell of a lot of wins before he was teamed with Bottas to put him in the position to break the records.

I'm on the Schumacher side of this argument but reducing yourself to raising such absurd points to try and knock Hamilton weakens the case for Schumacher, it doesn't strengthen it.
:thumbup:

Even though I am in the camp that think Hamilton marginally beats it versus Schumacher, there are also very good points in Schumacher's favour. Just very few in this thread fail to acknowledge that the other side has good arguments as well - and the " argument " you are rightfully criticising here clearly belongs to the most absurd ones.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:58 pm
Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:54 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:45 pm
carvala wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:31 pm
Lewis Hamilton is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. His current teammate is being called by many, something like "number 2", "wingman" or much worse and meaner. It makes me wonder/ponder, because...

Ayrton Senna is considered one of the greatest or the greatest F1-driver ever. One of his teammates was Gerhard Berger. He was also a very good F1-driver.

Back in the days, was Berger called those low nicknames like Bottas is now called? If not, that's good. But Bottas has been more successful teammate with Hamilton than Berger ever was with Senna.

Respect and dignity for everybody.
While I agree with the sentiment, it ties in with the theme of this topic - Bottas being more successful than drivers like Berger/Barrichello et al is another reflection of how much Hamilton's success is down to the car than his own skills. At least 5 titles (and counting) are solely down to dominance of the car (and I'm being charitable excluding 2017) - when all the Merc driver needs to do is beat the other guy.

There is no point talking about contemporaries when they are only allowed to bring a knife to a gun fight.
Kind of rich coming from someone fighting the Schumacher cause.

- Schumacher got new parts before his team mate. Mercedes have never done that, they delay updates until both cars have them. Schumacher even got an entire new seasons car before Barrichello in two seasons. Schumacher also got the newer chassis and Barrichello always started the season with the chassis that did the majority of pre season.

- Schumachers team mates had horrible reliability compared to him. Barrichello had 8 or 9 mechanical DNFs over Schumachers title run. Schumacher had one. Hamilton has not enjoyed anything like this and even lost a title to having worse reliability than his team mate.

- Barrichello was often thrown under the bus strategy wise. Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race).

- Barrichello drove in Michaels team, you have said it yourself. Michael was a team builder and it was his team and the people running it were his people from Benetton. Bottas drives for Mercedes.
"Where as Mercedes have a clear and transparent policy of favouring the lead car on track (unless it is deep into the title race)."

Yeah yeah, that's why in Monaco 2016 Rosberg was letting Hamilton by (which was eventually the reason he won) - even though every logic dictated that he should have been doing all to keep Hamilton behind for his own title bid. This type of sanctimonious and hypocritical crap is exactly why Hamilton gets panned.
When they are fighting for the lead of the race the lead car gets priority. When they are behind, if one driver is falling back with the other on their tail they will receive the instruction to concede the place and let the other attack. This is what happened at Monaco 2016, and Hungary 2018. In Hungary, Hamilton was not able to pass the car ahead and gave the position back.

This is a total non-event. McLaren did exactly the same thing with Ricciardo and Norris at Imola... it's standard practice and is pretty much universally considered fair and is nothing like Austria 2002. Attempting to frame it as hypocritical is either coming from a position of ignorance or just being severely disingenuous.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 2:55 pm
Your comment is literally all conjecture, and yet you manage to sound patronizing. I can also start claiming things at random and make my arguments around those claims if that's the game we're playing.
I think we've finally reached the point where further discussion is pointless.

To clarify my position:
  • I feel Schumacher would have had a small edge on Hamilton and was the better and more influential driver.
  • Hamilton raced in a much stronger field during his peak with Schumacher's contempories only catching up in 2003-2006.
  • Schumacher and Hamilton have both enjoyed a mechanical advantage over the field with Hamilton's period of unassailably dominant cars being longer (2001-2002, 2004 vs 2014-2016, 2019-2020).
  • Hamilton had stronger teammates than Schumacher and it remains to be seen how Schumacher would have coped with intra-team competition given he retired before Raikkonen arrived.
  • Schumacher enjoyed more preferential treatment at Ferrari than Hamilton has at Mercedes.
I think this is a fair and balanced assessment. I would not say "better" in the first bullet point, but otherwise I tend to agree. The only point I would add is that Schumacher used more often and more severe unfair means than Hamilton.

Therefore, I think that Hamilton has a small edge over Schumacher in the GOAT topic.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

I asked Mod Aqua to run one of those sortable polls for people to rank the wingmen drivers, which will give us an idea of how people feel the likes of Bottas and Barichello stack up:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16309

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm
The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.
Surely Verstappen over Raikkonen? Kimi has won 1 race over the period. Verstappen 11. Leclerc 3. Ricciardo too has 7 wins
No, I've listed the only drivers since 2014 that have driven equipment that would have allowed them to provide genuine competition for Hamilton for the championship.

It matters not how good the drivers in the other cars. They offer no competition to Hamilton due to the car deficit.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 5:14 pm
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:00 pm
Johnson wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:30 pm
The strength of the field thing brings us back to the origin of this thread.

I don't think there is any doubt Hamilton faced a stronger field during his most successful period than Schumacher did during his but how is that relevant when due to car differentials the only drivers that have provided him with competition for championship wins since 2014 are Rosberg, Bottas, Vettel and Raikkonen.

That's it. That's all the RELEVENT competition.
Surely Verstappen over Raikkonen? Kimi has won 1 race over the period. Verstappen 11. Leclerc 3. Ricciardo too has 7 wins
And yet none of them have ever fought Hamilton for the championship. Which is exactly what mikeyg123 said.

Even out of these, the one and only credible challenge from outside was Vettel in 2018, and we all know how spectacularly that collapsed.
No he said "championship wins" otherwise, why is Raikkonen there. He has never battled Hamilton for a championship since 2014. Bottas has never battled Hamilton for a title either.

Do you not rate Rosberg at all then? Better or worse than Barrichello?

Also, everything is "so far", Hamilton still has quite a few years left to change your mind. Unless you have already decided? He can easily have championship challenges from Verstappen (highly likely this year) or Leclerc or Russell in the comings year. Maybe he will change your mind. :thumbup:
He put Raikkonen in there as he was one of only 3 other drivers who have had a chance to fight Hamilton for a title - and that too just one year. Nobody has had the car to challenge the Mercs on pace, so it is inevitably down to Hamilton vs. Bottas, and you don't need to be a great driver to beat Bottas.

How many title fights has Fernando Alonso (the other claimant to the greatest of his generation title) been able to take part in against Hamilton in the Merc? Or Verstappen? Or Leclerc? Or Ricciardo? Zero.

You're right about the "so far" part - I personally doubt this year is going to be an even fight between Verstappen and Hamilton, but hope to be surprised.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 6:52 pm
I asked Mod Aqua to run one of those sortable polls for people to rank the wingmen drivers, which will give us an idea of how people feel the likes of Bottas and Barichello stack up:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16309
Good idea - although I suspect this will be heavily skewed due to the sheer number of Hamilton fans on here looking to prove their man is fighting the tough fight.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by SR1 »

Question-why are some on here "pretending" there was no title challenge from Ferrari in 2017? I seem to recall similarly matching cars with Vettel leading the fight for the majority of the season?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

SR1 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:41 am
Question-why are some on here "pretending" there was no title challenge from Ferrari in 2017? I seem to recall similarly matching cars with Vettel leading the fight for the majority of the season?
There was a challenge, sure - but there was no chance anyone except a Merc driver would have won the title that year, as the Ferrari failed massively on reliability and strategy. For 2018 I think Hamilton would have won the title in either car, but in 2017 there was always going to be only one winner.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:59 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:41 am
Question-why are some on here "pretending" there was no title challenge from Ferrari in 2017? I seem to recall similarly matching cars with Vettel leading the fight for the majority of the season?
There was a challenge, sure - but there was no chance anyone except a Merc driver would have won the title that year, as the Ferrari failed massively on reliability and strategy. For 2018 I think Hamilton would have won the title in either car, but in 2017 there was always going to be only one winner.
The same for 2016.. except the reliability struck Hamilton and Rosberg won it.

To refresh your memory. Vettel lead the title for the first 12 races and his car was bulletproof for the first 14 races. So I am not sure how you knew Vettel would suffer reliability issues late in the season?

Vettel was in the title race until the Singapore incident and then two mechanical issues in Malaysia and Japan but all of this was late season.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 3:40 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:59 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:41 am
Question-why are some on here "pretending" there was no title challenge from Ferrari in 2017? I seem to recall similarly matching cars with Vettel leading the fight for the majority of the season?
There was a challenge, sure - but there was no chance anyone except a Merc driver would have won the title that year, as the Ferrari failed massively on reliability and strategy. For 2018 I think Hamilton would have won the title in either car, but in 2017 there was always going to be only one winner.
The same for 2016.. except the reliability struck Hamilton and Rosberg won it.

To refresh your memory. Vettel lead the title for the first 12 races and his car was bulletproof for the first 14 races. So I am not sure how you knew Vettel would suffer reliability issues late in the season?

Vettel was in the title race until the Singapore incident and then two mechanical issues in Malaysia and Japan but all of this was late season.
2017 and 2018 Ferrari were legit competition for Mercedes. Foolish to deny that. 2017 is a bit like 2001 really. The cars were similar in terms of performance but unreliability, operational issues and driver deficit's meant it was one sided in the end.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Johnson »

Yes and no, 2001 Schumacher lead the WDC all year. He finished it with double Coulthards points. DC or Hakkinen were never close and it was clear at mid season that Schumacher would win.

Hamilton beat Vettel by 46 points in 2017 which is the same as Schumacher beat Hakkinen by in 2000.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:11 pm
Yes and no, 2001 Schumacher lead the WDC all year. He finished it with double Coulthards points. DC or Hakkinen were never close and it was clear at mid season that Schumacher would win.

Hamilton beat Vettel by 46 points in 2017 which is the same as Schumacher beat Hakkinen by in 2000.
I kind of meant in the relative speed of the corners.

McLaren had more issues in 01 than Ferrari in 17, Coulthard wasn't as good as Vettel and Schumacher was better than Hamilton (IMO).

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:11 pm
Yes and no, 2001 Schumacher lead the WDC all year. He finished it with double Coulthards points. DC or Hakkinen were never close and it was clear at mid season that Schumacher would win.

Hamilton beat Vettel by 46 points in 2017 which is the same as Schumacher beat Hakkinen by in 2000.
:thumbup:

In 2001, the Ferrari was dominant.

In 2000, it was closer with Ferrari only a little bit ahead.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:38 pm
McLaren had more issues in 01 than Ferrari in 17, Coulthard wasn't as good as Vettel and Schumacher was better than Hamilton (IMO).
The legalisation of traction control after San Marino basically handed the trophy to Schumacher on a silver platter since smooth acceleration is a weakness he had relative to Barrichello. Both Schumacher and DC were on 27 point after that race and any hint of a title battle was extinguished.
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:57 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:11 pm
Yes and no, 2001 Schumacher lead the WDC all year. He finished it with double Coulthards points. DC or Hakkinen were never close and it was clear at mid season that Schumacher would win.

Hamilton beat Vettel by 46 points in 2017 which is the same as Schumacher beat Hakkinen by in 2000.
:thumbup:

In 2001, the Ferrari was dominant.

In 2000, it was closer with Ferrari only a little bit ahead.
The Ferrari in 2001 achieved dominant results but it was no faster than the McLaren.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:13 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:38 pm
McLaren had more issues in 01 than Ferrari in 17, Coulthard wasn't as good as Vettel and Schumacher was better than Hamilton (IMO).
The legalisation of traction control after San Marino basically handed the trophy to Schumacher on a silver platter since smooth acceleration is a weakness he had relative to Barrichello. Both Schumacher and DC were on 27 point after that race and any hint of a title battle was extinguished.
Surely DC's launch control malfunctioning preventing him from getting off the line in two of the next three races had more to do with it?

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:23 pm
Surely DC's launch control malfunctioning preventing him from getting off the line in two of the next three races had more to do with it?
Of course that contributed but Ferrari had extensive experience with traction and launch control from the ex-Benetton staff. The regulation change suited Ferrari as well as it possibly could have and the other teams had to play catch up.
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