Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

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mikeyg123
Posts: 19319
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:11 pm
JN23 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:43 pm
On the Toto comments after the Russia race. I get where the comments above but I got the impression Toto is just p*ssed off that it wasn’t a 1-2 when it should have been and he obviously felt that the penalties handed out to Hamilton were unfair. I think the ‘not complete misery’ comment, whilst it doesn’t look great, I don’t think he was actively disappointed Bottas beat Hamilton.

FWIW, I agree, Mercedes would prefer Hamilton to be champion than Bottas.
I think it's more that he seemed more tiddled off that Hamilton didn't win than happy that Bottas did win.

I also think that Hamilton is probably a lot more high maintenance and difficult to manage than Bottas, which is why after the race he felt it was more important to whine to the stewards than celebrate Bottas' win.
When we want to bring forward things from Drive To Survive as a kind of evidence even though we know it's manipulated for drama, well having not watched it I can't really comment but something has emerged from Sochi which maybe throws a light on Wolff not being that happy with the Bottas win, if true.
So for the context here... At every other track on the calendar , the best position is to either start 1st or 2nd on the Grid... However , Sochi is a unique track , because here the best positions to qualify are either 1st or 3rd... The reason being that it's nearly 1 km into the first corner , so lots of free air behind the guy on 1st... Now , Toto Wolff wanted Bottas to qualify 2nd in order to protect Hamilton on pole as he was about to break Schumacher's record ... Bottas provisionally qualifies 2nd , but this time he wants to win instead of protecting Hamilton... He knows that Verstappen cannot qualify 2nd due to the inferior machinery , so he intentionally gives him a tow... The Team tells him not to do so... But he ignores them... Eventually Valterri Bottas ends up winning the race , but when he returns to his meeting , none of the engineers are there... So he celebrates the drinks with the Netflix Cameraman... KINDA SAD
Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.

KingVoid
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Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by KingVoid »

When Bottas eventually leaves Mercedes, I would love to listen to a Beyond the Grid podcast where he lets everything loose and tells us exactly how he was treated by Mercedes compared to Hamilton.

I think there’s a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that we simply do not know about (yet).

pokerman
Posts: 37516
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:11 pm
JN23 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:43 pm
On the Toto comments after the Russia race. I get where the comments above but I got the impression Toto is just p*ssed off that it wasn’t a 1-2 when it should have been and he obviously felt that the penalties handed out to Hamilton were unfair. I think the ‘not complete misery’ comment, whilst it doesn’t look great, I don’t think he was actively disappointed Bottas beat Hamilton.

FWIW, I agree, Mercedes would prefer Hamilton to be champion than Bottas.
I think it's more that he seemed more tiddled off that Hamilton didn't win than happy that Bottas did win.

I also think that Hamilton is probably a lot more high maintenance and difficult to manage than Bottas, which is why after the race he felt it was more important to whine to the stewards than celebrate Bottas' win.
When we want to bring forward things from Drive To Survive as a kind of evidence even though we know it's manipulated for drama, well having not watched it I can't really comment but something has emerged from Sochi which maybe throws a light on Wolff not being that happy with the Bottas win, if true.
So for the context here... At every other track on the calendar , the best position is to either start 1st or 2nd on the Grid... However , Sochi is a unique track , because here the best positions to qualify are either 1st or 3rd... The reason being that it's nearly 1 km into the first corner , so lots of free air behind the guy on 1st... Now , Toto Wolff wanted Bottas to qualify 2nd in order to protect Hamilton on pole as he was about to break Schumacher's record ... Bottas provisionally qualifies 2nd , but this time he wants to win instead of protecting Hamilton... He knows that Verstappen cannot qualify 2nd due to the inferior machinery , so he intentionally gives him a tow... The Team tells him not to do so... But he ignores them... Eventually Valterri Bottas ends up winning the race , but when he returns to his meeting , none of the engineers are there... So he celebrates the drinks with the Netflix Cameraman... KINDA SAD
Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.
It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
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pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:42 am
When Bottas eventually leaves Mercedes, I would love to listen to a Beyond the Grid podcast where he lets everything loose and tells us exactly how he was treated by Mercedes compared to Hamilton.

I think there’s a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that we simply do not know about (yet).
Hopefully Rosberg decides to do the same, I would find that far more interesting.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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mikeyg123
Posts: 19319
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:11 pm
JN23 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:43 pm
On the Toto comments after the Russia race. I get where the comments above but I got the impression Toto is just p*ssed off that it wasn’t a 1-2 when it should have been and he obviously felt that the penalties handed out to Hamilton were unfair. I think the ‘not complete misery’ comment, whilst it doesn’t look great, I don’t think he was actively disappointed Bottas beat Hamilton.

FWIW, I agree, Mercedes would prefer Hamilton to be champion than Bottas.
I think it's more that he seemed more tiddled off that Hamilton didn't win than happy that Bottas did win.

I also think that Hamilton is probably a lot more high maintenance and difficult to manage than Bottas, which is why after the race he felt it was more important to whine to the stewards than celebrate Bottas' win.
When we want to bring forward things from Drive To Survive as a kind of evidence even though we know it's manipulated for drama, well having not watched it I can't really comment but something has emerged from Sochi which maybe throws a light on Wolff not being that happy with the Bottas win, if true.
So for the context here... At every other track on the calendar , the best position is to either start 1st or 2nd on the Grid... However , Sochi is a unique track , because here the best positions to qualify are either 1st or 3rd... The reason being that it's nearly 1 km into the first corner , so lots of free air behind the guy on 1st... Now , Toto Wolff wanted Bottas to qualify 2nd in order to protect Hamilton on pole as he was about to break Schumacher's record ... Bottas provisionally qualifies 2nd , but this time he wants to win instead of protecting Hamilton... He knows that Verstappen cannot qualify 2nd due to the inferior machinery , so he intentionally gives him a tow... The Team tells him not to do so... But he ignores them... Eventually Valterri Bottas ends up winning the race , but when he returns to his meeting , none of the engineers are there... So he celebrates the drinks with the Netflix Cameraman... KINDA SAD
Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.
It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.

pokerman
Posts: 37516
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:46 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:11 pm


I think it's more that he seemed more tiddled off that Hamilton didn't win than happy that Bottas did win.

I also think that Hamilton is probably a lot more high maintenance and difficult to manage than Bottas, which is why after the race he felt it was more important to whine to the stewards than celebrate Bottas' win.
When we want to bring forward things from Drive To Survive as a kind of evidence even though we know it's manipulated for drama, well having not watched it I can't really comment but something has emerged from Sochi which maybe throws a light on Wolff not being that happy with the Bottas win, if true.
So for the context here... At every other track on the calendar , the best position is to either start 1st or 2nd on the Grid... However , Sochi is a unique track , because here the best positions to qualify are either 1st or 3rd... The reason being that it's nearly 1 km into the first corner , so lots of free air behind the guy on 1st... Now , Toto Wolff wanted Bottas to qualify 2nd in order to protect Hamilton on pole as he was about to break Schumacher's record ... Bottas provisionally qualifies 2nd , but this time he wants to win instead of protecting Hamilton... He knows that Verstappen cannot qualify 2nd due to the inferior machinery , so he intentionally gives him a tow... The Team tells him not to do so... But he ignores them... Eventually Valterri Bottas ends up winning the race , but when he returns to his meeting , none of the engineers are there... So he celebrates the drinks with the Netflix Cameraman... KINDA SAD
Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.
It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.
You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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mikeyg123
Posts: 19319
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:46 pm

When we want to bring forward things from Drive To Survive as a kind of evidence even though we know it's manipulated for drama, well having not watched it I can't really comment but something has emerged from Sochi which maybe throws a light on Wolff not being that happy with the Bottas win, if true.

Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.
It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.
You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?

pokerman
Posts: 37516
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm


Who are you quoting?

Surely if it's true then that shows Bottas was very much being treated as a number 2 even though the championship was a done deal.

I agree anything in DTS needs to be treated with caution. I felt in this case it was worth mentioning as Bottas clearly acts like he thinks he is treated second rate.
It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.
You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?
I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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mikeyg123
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:34 pm

It's from another site were the source isn't revealed but seeing as you was looking to put DTS forward as a source then I figured it open season for dodgy sources.

If true however I see Mercedes merely wanting to lock out the front row so they could control the start of the race after seeing Ferrari successfully doing the same in respect to Hamilton the year before. In this case Bottas would take up the Vettel position, was Vettel a #2 driver, however after taking the lead of the race then Vettel renegaded on the deal, but that's another story.
Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.
You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?
I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.

Retro-Virus
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Retro-Virus »

Hamilton edges it for me, simply because he has faced better team mates, and never went against the rules of the game.

Schumacher was good, between 1996-2000, and if they had shared the same car, he would have been beaten, as done by Mr Rosberg
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pokerman
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:45 pm


Just to point out... My source is Valterri Bottas and Toto Wolf.

What you've sighted is an unsourced paragraph of speculation.

Surely you can see how those things are not equitable?

Bottas and Hamilton both tried to put themselves in the best possible place to win the race. Merc only seem annoyed at Bottas.

It's clear from Bottas reaction to events that he very much feels like he is treated like a number 2.

Toto literally says that it's more important to go to the stewards for a whinge on Hamilton's behalf (something that is not possible to have any effect on the race whatsoever. The penalty has already been served) than celebrate Bottas' win. A result which he grudgingly admits isn't a complete disaster.
You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?
I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.
Sorry I missed this reply.

We see in a recent interview that Wolff doesn't want warring teammates, he doesn't want a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg, now name me anything nefarious that Hamilton has done against Bottas?

Now I understand your wishes for Bottas to turn Rosberg on Hamilton but Wolff himself is being consistent in how he wants to run the team and giving tows to rival drivers in order to gain advantage over his teammate wouldn't fit that bill.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 172 (1st)


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mikeyg123
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:18 pm

You have me at a disadvantage because I don't have access to the new series, all I hear is titbits like Bottas admitting to what he did.

Now tell me did Bottas choose to be 6 tenths slower than Hamilton in qualifying or was he instructed to be that much slower because you seem to have better access to that kind of information when deciding whether or not Bottas was being disadvantaged.

I mean I've heard of some that have watched the series that says it somewhat paints Bottas in a different light as this driver ready to accept any disadvantage and be a lap dog as we often see being put forward.
I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?
I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.
Sorry I missed this reply.

We see in a recent interview that Wolff doesn't want warring teammates, he doesn't want a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg, now name me anything nefarious that Hamilton has done against Bottas?

Now I understand your wishes for Bottas to turn Rosberg on Hamilton but Wolff himself is being consistent in how he wants to run the team and giving tows to rival drivers in order to gain advantage over his teammate wouldn't fit that bill.
I disagree that what Bottas did was in anyway "nefarious" He was giving himself the best possible chance in the race. If starting P3 is better than staring P2 then why wouldn't Wolff want Bottas to start P3? Unless, of course he is more concerned about protecting Hamilton in P1 than he is about Bottas?

And also, Wolff can't now bang on about not wanting drivers clashing. He was the man who repeatedly extended Nico Rosberg's contract.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

Retro-Virus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:37 am
Hamilton edges it for me, simply because he has faced better team mates, and never went against the rules of the game.

Schumacher was good, between 1996-2000, and if they had shared the same car, he would have been beaten, as done by Mr Rosberg
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but to compare a prime Schumacher from 1996-2000 with the 42 yr old Schumacher (who actually was still often faster than Rosberg in his prime) is pure lunacy.

A prime Schumacher losing out to Jenson Button as happened with Hamilton? No chance. Schumacher would wipe the floor with Hamilton if they were team-mates - not just because he is faster (I think they are fairly even on pace), but simply because he made the team his own in a way Hamilton can never dream of. People are living in denial if they think Hamilton has anywhere near the same work ethic that Schumacher demonstrated (flying off to test one day after the race? No problem. Need to try new parts tomorrow? Sure, on my way) - and this is without even thinking of the mental side of the game, where Schumacher is probably leagues above anyone else (and Hamilton is demonstrably weak).

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

__________________________________
Meadows then spoke of the team’s regret over not winning with Schumacher as he provided a lot of the foundations that helped Mercedes become such a dominant force in the years to come.

“A couple of years later we couldn’t stop winning and he deserves some of that because the reason we’re winning today, a lot was down to him because he made us better.”
__________________________________
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... v5kwS.html

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:38 pm


I don't think Merc were actively disadvantaging Bottas. I don't think the quali thing is a big deal TBH. It's the clear disappointment of Bottas winning rather than Hamilton. "Not a complete disaster". Do you think Hamilton winning would have been described in that language? Do you think Hamilton would be happy with his team boss describing his wins in that way?
I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.
Sorry I missed this reply.

We see in a recent interview that Wolff doesn't want warring teammates, he doesn't want a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg, now name me anything nefarious that Hamilton has done against Bottas?

Now I understand your wishes for Bottas to turn Rosberg on Hamilton but Wolff himself is being consistent in how he wants to run the team and giving tows to rival drivers in order to gain advantage over his teammate wouldn't fit that bill.
I disagree that what Bottas did was in anyway "nefarious" He was giving himself the best possible chance in the race. If starting P3 is better than staring P2 then why wouldn't Wolff want Bottas to start P3? Unless, of course he is more concerned about protecting Hamilton in P1 than he is about Bottas?

And also, Wolff can't now bang on about not wanting drivers clashing. He was the man who repeatedly extended Nico Rosberg's contract.
Well it appears that Wolff himself wasn't pleased and he might have thoughts of car parking at Monaco and I don't want the team to become a war zone again, helping a rival driver for your own ends I would describe as being nefarious.

In respect to Rosberg he was a German in a German team, that being said it was rumoured that in 2016 Rosberg was only being offered a 1 year contract until the crash at Barcelona were Hamilton threatened to leave the team because he couldn't believe the stance that they took, they panicked and gave Rosberg a 2 year contract. Perhaps a bit tongue in cheek and with a grin on his face Rosberg said recently it was pay back for COTA 2015.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

myattitude wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 pm
__________________________________
Meadows then spoke of the team’s regret over not winning with Schumacher as he provided a lot of the foundations that helped Mercedes become such a dominant force in the years to come.

“A couple of years later we couldn’t stop winning and he deserves some of that because the reason we’re winning today, a lot was down to him because he made us better.”
__________________________________
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... v5kwS.html
For 2010, Mercedes signed seven-time champion Schumacher – who had been out of Grand Prix racing since 2006 – alongside young German Nico Rosberg, and while initial results were decent, the team had to wait for 2012 for a pole position. It was delivered in stunning fashion by none other than Schumacher at the Monaco Grand Prix. However, the champion already had a five-place grid penalty from the previous race, leaving him starting from P6 and his hopes of a win in tatters.
False the first pole position was Rosberg in China the same year, what kind of reporting is this?
“He had shortcomings in terms of how he was able to drive the car relative to Nico, but he was very conscious and aware of that and doing what he could to remedy those areas. But the areas which, in truth, part of it was age, where he wouldn’t be helped to find anything on it, were there. I think he also knew that was his time.
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Why is it strange? It's a fairly commonly held opinion, although certainly not universal. There's even some data that suggests it might be true (point projections adjusted for reliability, mostly) although I have to say I haven't delved into the question myself.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Why is it strange? It's a fairly commonly held opinion, although certainly not universal. There's even some data that suggests it might be true (point projections adjusted for reliability, mostly) although I have to say I haven't delved into the question myself.
I would say it's a commonly held opinion by Schumacher fans, meanwhile the article put forward to praise Schumacher states he had problems to match Rosberg in certain areas, some with respect to his age, which meant going forward being competitive would be difficult for him.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:12 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Why is it strange? It's a fairly commonly held opinion, although certainly not universal. There's even some data that suggests it might be true (point projections adjusted for reliability, mostly) although I have to say I haven't delved into the question myself.
I would say it's a commonly held opinion by Schumacher fans, meanwhile the article put forward to praise Schumacher states he had problems to match Rosberg in certain areas, some with respect to his age, which meant going forward being competitive would be difficult for him.
And yet despite that he was, on balance, as good as Rosberg in 2012.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Invade »

The latest Beyond the Grid podcast with the Brackley crew is worth listening to.

Some sorta Hamilton vs Schumacher stuff in there.

Schumacher had weaknesses and knew about them and would work on them, but they attribute this mainly to his age.

Hamilton - no weaknesses, and constant improvement, which Shovlin suggests must be rather exhausting.

Who they generally preferred to work with? Schumacher, with a nod to Button (from Shovlin, who more or less gives Schumacher the honourable mention). Nobody chose Hamilton.

1:18:40 for that general discussion...

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:59 pm

I can't really comment on something I didn't watch and DTS has a reputation for somewhat stretching realities.

What's being put about can be perhaps be seen as equally unreliable but it's being put out there that Bottas deliberately gave Verstappen a tow against the teams wishes to better advantage himself for the start of the race which then caused the reaction you saw to the Bottas win.

In respect to Hamilton I just couldn't imagine him doing something so nefarious and that would include parking his car in Monaco qualifying.

I can then speculate further that did this incident then move Mercedes to try and sign Russell as I can also speculate did Vettel ignoring team orders at the same track the year before influence Ferrari in not renewing his contract.
But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.
Sorry I missed this reply.

We see in a recent interview that Wolff doesn't want warring teammates, he doesn't want a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg, now name me anything nefarious that Hamilton has done against Bottas?

Now I understand your wishes for Bottas to turn Rosberg on Hamilton but Wolff himself is being consistent in how he wants to run the team and giving tows to rival drivers in order to gain advantage over his teammate wouldn't fit that bill.
I disagree that what Bottas did was in anyway "nefarious" He was giving himself the best possible chance in the race. If starting P3 is better than staring P2 then why wouldn't Wolff want Bottas to start P3? Unless, of course he is more concerned about protecting Hamilton in P1 than he is about Bottas?

And also, Wolff can't now bang on about not wanting drivers clashing. He was the man who repeatedly extended Nico Rosberg's contract.
Well it appears that Wolff himself wasn't pleased and he might have thoughts of car parking at Monaco and I don't want the team to become a war zone again, helping a rival driver for your own ends I would describe as being nefarious.

In respect to Rosberg he was a German in a German team, that being said it was rumoured that in 2016 Rosberg was only being offered a 1 year contract until the crash at Barcelona were Hamilton threatened to leave the team because he couldn't believe the stance that they took, they panicked and gave Rosberg a 2 year contract. Perhaps a bit tongue in cheek and with a grin on his face Rosberg said recently it was pay back for COTA 2015.
But Bottas didn't help Verstappen. He thought starting 3rd was better than 2nd and he was correct in that.

And you seem reminding as much as Toto... Bottas is a Mercedes driver. What is good for Bottas is good for Mercedes. How can Bottas putting himself in the best position he can to win not be good for Mercedes?

If Toto cared about Merc being a warzone why is Rosberg even driving for them in 2016?

At the end of the day you can believe what you want but it seems pretty clear Merc is very much team Hamilton and Valteri is just the guy who drives the other car. There is no way Wolff reacts to a Hamilton win the way he does to Bottas' in Russia. Under any circumstance. Keeping Hamilton happy is a higher priority than Bottas winning.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
myattitude wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 pm
__________________________________
Meadows then spoke of the team’s regret over not winning with Schumacher as he provided a lot of the foundations that helped Mercedes become such a dominant force in the years to come.

“A couple of years later we couldn’t stop winning and he deserves some of that because the reason we’re winning today, a lot was down to him because he made us better.”
__________________________________
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... v5kwS.html
For 2010, Mercedes signed seven-time champion Schumacher – who had been out of Grand Prix racing since 2006 – alongside young German Nico Rosberg, and while initial results were decent, the team had to wait for 2012 for a pole position. It was delivered in stunning fashion by none other than Schumacher at the Monaco Grand Prix. However, the champion already had a five-place grid penalty from the previous race, leaving him starting from P6 and his hopes of a win in tatters.
False the first pole position was Rosberg in China the same year, what kind of reporting is this?
“He had shortcomings in terms of how he was able to drive the car relative to Nico, but he was very conscious and aware of that and doing what he could to remedy those areas. But the areas which, in truth, part of it was age, where he wouldn’t be helped to find anything on it, were there. I think he also knew that was his time.
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Yes, that is a myth, really. It started out with some projections than Schumacher with an ideal season could have matched Rosberg (without assuming an ideal season for him as well, of course). And over the years, the mantra was developed that he was better than Rosberg, which is as false as the claim that Schumacher scored the first pole ...

It always reminds me of some desperate Anti-MS fans who, back in the day, provided strange projections that Barrichello was actually matching Schumacher at Ferrari, which of course is nonsense as well.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
Yes, that is a myth, really. It started out with some projections than Schumacher with an ideal season could have matched Rosberg (without assuming an ideal season for him as well, of course). And over the years, the mantra was developed that he was better than Rosberg, which is as false as the claim that Schumacher scored the first pole ...
In qualifying, Schumacher was only 0.042% slower than Rosberg in 2012. Hamilton was a median of 0.085% quicker than Rosberg. This means that a 43 year old Schumacher was at worst 0.130% slower than peak Hamilton.

As far as race performances are concerned:

Australia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg and was leading him and pulling away until a gearbox failure. Schumi lost at least 10 points. I doubt he'd have beaten the RB drivers but 5th was definitely possible.

Malaysia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg, gets spun by Grosjean on lap 1, and still beats Rosberg in the race (who suffered no misfortune). Schumacher lost a possible top 5 finish without the spin, 9 points lost.

China - Schumacher loses 18 points because of a wheelnut failure

Bahrain - no misfortunes

Monaco - Schumacher loses 6 points because of a mechanical problem
You could argue that he lost 25 points if you think that his penalty for the Spain accident with Senna was undeserved. I think it was, and even freaking JV agreed and defended Schumacher (saying Bruno moved in the braking zone)

Canada - Schumacher retires from mechanical problems, but he was only on course for P9 anyway. 2 points lost.

Valencia, Silverstone, Hockenheim - no bad luck for either driver.

Hungary - Schumacher stalled on the formation lap but it wouldn't have mattered anyway

Belgium - Schumacher overtook Raikkonen on pace and was on course for a podium until his car developed a gearbox problem. 9 points lost.

Monza - clean race

Singapore - Schumacher crashed on his own, no points given

After Singapore the Merc wasn't even good enough for points anymore so it didn't matter.

Schumacher ends up with 49 + 10 + 9 + 18 + (6 or 25) + 2 + 9 = 103 or 122 points.
Rosberg finished the season with 93 points and suffered little to no misfortunes.

If you can give me an example of misfortune from Rosberg in 2012, go ahead.

Based on who was better on a race-by-race basis, I would go like this:

AUS - MSC
MAL - MSC
CHI - ROS
BAH - ROS
ESP - ROS
MON - ROS
CAN - ROS
EUR - MSC
GBR - MSC
GER - MSC
HUN - ROS
BEL - MSC
ITA - MSC
SIN - ROS
USA - ROS
BZL - MSC

That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.

I didn't bother looking at the period from Japan to Abu Dhabi because of how bad Mercedes was in this time (barely any faster than Caterham)

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.
A fairly minor part of the overall analysis, but why did you give Monaco to Rosberg?
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:09 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.
A fairly minor part of the overall analysis, but why did you give Monaco to Rosberg?
Because he was ahead before Schumacher’s car failed (this is ignoring Schumacher’s penalty that was unfair in my opinion).

At the end of the day, Schumacher was only a tiny fraction slower than Rosberg in qualifying, and looked slightly better on Sundays. Not bad for a 43 year old up against a 27 year old.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:28 am
Exediron wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:09 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.
A fairly minor part of the overall analysis, but why did you give Monaco to Rosberg?
Because he was ahead before Schumacher’s car failed (this is ignoring Schumacher’s penalty that was unfair in my opinion).
Personally, I'd say that whether Schumi's penalty was fair or not doesn't matter when assessing the relative performance of the drivers. The mistake/incident in Barcelona that resulted in the penalty should be taken into consideration, but the penalty exists purely to punish the driver and I wouldn't say reflects on Schumacher's pace that weekend at all.

He was faster than Rosberg in the sessions where they could be compared equally, so to me he would be ahead. But of course either way it doesn't really change the overall conclusion, which is that one can make a fact-based argument that Schumacher was better (although not necessarily quicker in qualifying) than Rosberg in 2012.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
Yes, that is a myth, really. It started out with some projections than Schumacher with an ideal season could have matched Rosberg (without assuming an ideal season for him as well, of course). And over the years, the mantra was developed that he was better than Rosberg, which is as false as the claim that Schumacher scored the first pole ...
In qualifying, Schumacher was only 0.042% slower than Rosberg in 2012. Hamilton was a median of 0.085% quicker than Rosberg. This means that a 43 year old Schumacher was at worst 0.130% slower than peak Hamilton.

As far as race performances are concerned:

Australia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg and was leading him and pulling away until a gearbox failure. Schumi lost at least 10 points. I doubt he'd have beaten the RB drivers but 5th was definitely possible.

Malaysia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg, gets spun by Grosjean on lap 1, and still beats Rosberg in the race (who suffered no misfortune). Schumacher lost a possible top 5 finish without the spin, 9 points lost.

China - Schumacher loses 18 points because of a wheelnut failure

Bahrain - no misfortunes

Monaco - Schumacher loses 6 points because of a mechanical problem
You could argue that he lost 25 points if you think that his penalty for the Spain accident with Senna was undeserved. I think it was, and even freaking JV agreed and defended Schumacher (saying Bruno moved in the braking zone)

Canada - Schumacher retires from mechanical problems, but he was only on course for P9 anyway. 2 points lost.

Valencia, Silverstone, Hockenheim - no bad luck for either driver.

Hungary - Schumacher stalled on the formation lap but it wouldn't have mattered anyway

Belgium - Schumacher overtook Raikkonen on pace and was on course for a podium until his car developed a gearbox problem. 9 points lost.

Monza - clean race

Singapore - Schumacher crashed on his own, no points given

After Singapore the Merc wasn't even good enough for points anymore so it didn't matter.

Schumacher ends up with 49 + 10 + 9 + 18 + (6 or 25) + 2 + 9 = 103 or 122 points.
Rosberg finished the season with 93 points and suffered little to no misfortunes.

If you can give me an example of misfortune from Rosberg in 2012, go ahead.

Based on who was better on a race-by-race basis, I would go like this:

AUS - MSC
MAL - MSC
CHI - ROS
BAH - ROS
ESP - ROS
MON - ROS
CAN - ROS
EUR - MSC
GBR - MSC
GER - MSC
HUN - ROS
BEL - MSC
ITA - MSC
SIN - ROS
USA - ROS
BZL - MSC

That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.

I didn't bother looking at the period from Japan to Abu Dhabi because of how bad Mercedes was in this time (barely any faster than Caterham)
This is exactly the kind of analysis I am referring to: comparing an ideal Schumacher season with Rosberg's real season ...

The projections on Schumacher's points assume that all tyre strategies would have played out without any unexpected drop- offs. However, those are a main characteristic of 2012. And neither Mercedes nor Schumacher was particularly good with the Pirelli tyres.

For instance, I recently re-watched Cina 2012: Schumacher was nowhere on the way to second, no chance.

No misfortunes for Rosberg?
Being crashed out in Suzuka, Korea and Abu Dhabi from the top of my head, being innocent in at least two of the three incidents ( don't remember details of the third) - just to start with ...
Two bad qualifying positions due to technical issues ...
Last edited by Paolo_Lasardi on Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
myattitude wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 pm
__________________________________
Meadows then spoke of the team’s regret over not winning with Schumacher as he provided a lot of the foundations that helped Mercedes become such a dominant force in the years to come.

“A couple of years later we couldn’t stop winning and he deserves some of that because the reason we’re winning today, a lot was down to him because he made us better.”
__________________________________
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... v5kwS.html
For 2010, Mercedes signed seven-time champion Schumacher – who had been out of Grand Prix racing since 2006 – alongside young German Nico Rosberg, and while initial results were decent, the team had to wait for 2012 for a pole position. It was delivered in stunning fashion by none other than Schumacher at the Monaco Grand Prix. However, the champion already had a five-place grid penalty from the previous race, leaving him starting from P6 and his hopes of a win in tatters.
False the first pole position was Rosberg in China the same year, what kind of reporting is this?
“He had shortcomings in terms of how he was able to drive the car relative to Nico, but he was very conscious and aware of that and doing what he could to remedy those areas. But the areas which, in truth, part of it was age, where he wouldn’t be helped to find anything on it, were there. I think he also knew that was his time.
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Doesn't it say a lot that in his final year he was better than Rosberg despite all the physical shortcomings he had by then? It wasn't just his age either but reduced blood supply to the brain from his bike accident. Did he publicly whinge? Did he blame his team? Did he imply a conspiracy against him? No, he just got his head down and worked on his game, and it paid off because by 2012 at 43 years old he was doing better than Rosberg. Hamilton never had this kind of fortitude.

But that wasn't the point of the post, which was to highlight Schumacher's contribution to Mercedes's success today, that team building trait which Hamilton (or anyone else) doesn't hold a candle to.

Only two people in F1 history are this instrumental in building dominant teams more than once - one is Adrian Newey, the other is Michael Schumacher.
Last edited by myattitude on Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:35 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
Yes, that is a myth, really. It started out with some projections than Schumacher with an ideal season could have matched Rosberg (without assuming an ideal season for him as well, of course). And over the years, the mantra was developed that he was better than Rosberg, which is as false as the claim that Schumacher scored the first pole ...
In qualifying, Schumacher was only 0.042% slower than Rosberg in 2012. Hamilton was a median of 0.085% quicker than Rosberg. This means that a 43 year old Schumacher was at worst 0.130% slower than peak Hamilton.

As far as race performances are concerned:

Australia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg and was leading him and pulling away until a gearbox failure. Schumi lost at least 10 points. I doubt he'd have beaten the RB drivers but 5th was definitely possible.

Malaysia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg, gets spun by Grosjean on lap 1, and still beats Rosberg in the race (who suffered no misfortune). Schumacher lost a possible top 5 finish without the spin, 9 points lost.

China - Schumacher loses 18 points because of a wheelnut failure

Bahrain - no misfortunes

Monaco - Schumacher loses 6 points because of a mechanical problem
You could argue that he lost 25 points if you think that his penalty for the Spain accident with Senna was undeserved. I think it was, and even freaking JV agreed and defended Schumacher (saying Bruno moved in the braking zone)

Canada - Schumacher retires from mechanical problems, but he was only on course for P9 anyway. 2 points lost.

Valencia, Silverstone, Hockenheim - no bad luck for either driver.

Hungary - Schumacher stalled on the formation lap but it wouldn't have mattered anyway

Belgium - Schumacher overtook Raikkonen on pace and was on course for a podium until his car developed a gearbox problem. 9 points lost.

Monza - clean race

Singapore - Schumacher crashed on his own, no points given

After Singapore the Merc wasn't even good enough for points anymore so it didn't matter.

Schumacher ends up with 49 + 10 + 9 + 18 + (6 or 25) + 2 + 9 = 103 or 122 points.
Rosberg finished the season with 93 points and suffered little to no misfortunes.

If you can give me an example of misfortune from Rosberg in 2012, go ahead.

Based on who was better on a race-by-race basis, I would go like this:

AUS - MSC
MAL - MSC
CHI - ROS
BAH - ROS
ESP - ROS
MON - ROS
CAN - ROS
EUR - MSC
GBR - MSC
GER - MSC
HUN - ROS
BEL - MSC
ITA - MSC
SIN - ROS
USA - ROS
BZL - MSC

That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.

I didn't bother looking at the period from Japan to Abu Dhabi because of how bad Mercedes was in this time (barely any faster than Caterham)
This is exactly the kind of analysis I am referring to: comparing an ideal Schumacher season with Rosberg's real season ...

The projections on Schumacher's points assume that all tyre strategies would have played out without any unexpected drop- offs. However, those are a main characteristic of 2012. And neither Mercedes nor Schumacher was particularly good with the Pirelli tyres.

For instance, I recently re-watched Cina 2012: Schumacher was nowhere on the way to second, no chance.

No misfortunes for Rosberg?
Being crashed out in Suzuka, Korea and Abu Dhabi from the top of my head, being innocent in at least two of the three incidents ( don't remember details of the third) - just to start with ...
All fair points

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Invade »

I think the whole Rosberg-Schumacher dynamic says a lot more about Rosberg than it does Schumacher, which is then bolstered quite reasonably with what happened afterwards with Rosberg-Hamilton.

... that Nico Rosberg was a very fine F1 racer, who was able to produce admirable performance against two ATGs.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Invade wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:02 am
I think the whole Rosberg-Schumacher dynamic says a lot more about Rosberg than it does Schumacher, which is then bolstered quite reasonably with what happened afterwards with Rosberg-Hamilton.

... that Nico Rosberg was a very fine F1 racer, who was able to produce admirable performance against two ATGs.
Exactly. So if a 42 yo Schumacher did relatively ok against a guy who beat Hamilton in a WDC fight, then that wasn't bad for the old dog...

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:35 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:57 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 pm
Yes, that is a myth, really. It started out with some projections than Schumacher with an ideal season could have matched Rosberg (without assuming an ideal season for him as well, of course). And over the years, the mantra was developed that he was better than Rosberg, which is as false as the claim that Schumacher scored the first pole ...
In qualifying, Schumacher was only 0.042% slower than Rosberg in 2012. Hamilton was a median of 0.085% quicker than Rosberg. This means that a 43 year old Schumacher was at worst 0.130% slower than peak Hamilton.

As far as race performances are concerned:

Australia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg and was leading him and pulling away until a gearbox failure. Schumi lost at least 10 points. I doubt he'd have beaten the RB drivers but 5th was definitely possible.

Malaysia - Schumacher outqualifies Rosberg, gets spun by Grosjean on lap 1, and still beats Rosberg in the race (who suffered no misfortune). Schumacher lost a possible top 5 finish without the spin, 9 points lost.

China - Schumacher loses 18 points because of a wheelnut failure

Bahrain - no misfortunes

Monaco - Schumacher loses 6 points because of a mechanical problem
You could argue that he lost 25 points if you think that his penalty for the Spain accident with Senna was undeserved. I think it was, and even freaking JV agreed and defended Schumacher (saying Bruno moved in the braking zone)

Canada - Schumacher retires from mechanical problems, but he was only on course for P9 anyway. 2 points lost.

Valencia, Silverstone, Hockenheim - no bad luck for either driver.

Hungary - Schumacher stalled on the formation lap but it wouldn't have mattered anyway

Belgium - Schumacher overtook Raikkonen on pace and was on course for a podium until his car developed a gearbox problem. 9 points lost.

Monza - clean race

Singapore - Schumacher crashed on his own, no points given

After Singapore the Merc wasn't even good enough for points anymore so it didn't matter.

Schumacher ends up with 49 + 10 + 9 + 18 + (6 or 25) + 2 + 9 = 103 or 122 points.
Rosberg finished the season with 93 points and suffered little to no misfortunes.

If you can give me an example of misfortune from Rosberg in 2012, go ahead.

Based on who was better on a race-by-race basis, I would go like this:

AUS - MSC
MAL - MSC
CHI - ROS
BAH - ROS
ESP - ROS
MON - ROS
CAN - ROS
EUR - MSC
GBR - MSC
GER - MSC
HUN - ROS
BEL - MSC
ITA - MSC
SIN - ROS
USA - ROS
BZL - MSC

That's a score of 8-8 and I am very generous in giving Monaco and Hungary to Rosberg.

I didn't bother looking at the period from Japan to Abu Dhabi because of how bad Mercedes was in this time (barely any faster than Caterham)
This is exactly the kind of analysis I am referring to: comparing an ideal Schumacher season with Rosberg's real season ...

The projections on Schumacher's points assume that all tyre strategies would have played out without any unexpected drop- offs. However, those are a main characteristic of 2012. And neither Mercedes nor Schumacher was particularly good with the Pirelli tyres.

For instance, I recently re-watched Cina 2012: Schumacher was nowhere on the way to second, no chance.

No misfortunes for Rosberg?
Being crashed out in Suzuka, Korea and Abu Dhabi from the top of my head, being innocent in at least two of the three incidents ( don't remember details of the third) - just to start with ...
Two bad qualifying positions due to technical issues ...
Was Rosberg actually on for many points in the races you quote there? Because the Merc was not a big point scorer at all in the second half of the season.

I know that when I watched the 2012 season I came away thinking Schumacher and Rosberg had been fairly equal that year.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:46 am
But that wasn't the point of the post, which was to highlight Schumacher's contribution to Mercedes's success today, that team building trait which Hamilton (or anyone else) doesn't hold a candle to.

Only two people in F1 history are this instrumental in building dominant teams more than once - one is Adrian Newey, the other is Michael Schumacher.
People are living in a dream world. Schumacher was an incredible driver, hard worker and leader within the teams he drove for but he was merely one cog in a very complex machine. It's fascinating how people overstate his contribution to Mercedes domination when the team was obviously investing resources and recruiting the best personnel with a view towards 2014.

Schumacher had many incredible people beside him throughout his career: Brawn, Byrne, Costa and Todt to name but a few not to mention the many unheralded engineers in his successful Benetton and Ferrari teams. To overstate his contribution and understate theirs is gauche great man-ism.

Hamilton has shown his ability to galvanise a team from 2017-present and before then his insecurity around his ability and confidence allowed Button to takeover at McLaren and his inability to fully turn Mercedes against Rosberg. He just isn't the domineering, supremely confident being that Schumacher was.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by myattitude »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am
myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:46 am
But that wasn't the point of the post, which was to highlight Schumacher's contribution to Mercedes's success today, that team building trait which Hamilton (or anyone else) doesn't hold a candle to.

Only two people in F1 history are this instrumental in building dominant teams more than once - one is Adrian Newey, the other is Michael Schumacher.
People are living in a dream world. Schumacher was an incredible driver, hard worker and leader within the teams he drove for but he was merely one cog in a very complex machine. It's fascinating how people overstate his contribution to Mercedes domination when the team was obviously investing resources and recruiting the best personnel with a view towards 2014.

Schumacher had many incredible people beside him throughout his career: Brawn, Byrne, Costa and Todt to name but a few not to mention the many unheralded engineers in his successful Benetton and Ferrari teams. To overstate his contribution and understate theirs is gauche great man-ism.

Hamilton has shown his ability to galvanise a team from 2017-present and before then his insecurity around his ability and confidence allowed Button to takeover at McLaren and his inability to fully turn Mercedes against Rosberg. He just isn't the domineering, supremely confident being that Schumacher was.
That isn't what those people who actually worked with Schumacher have said about his team building contributions.

Appearing to 'galvanise' a team from 2017 looks easy when you don't have much competition, but we'll see how he does when Max starts edging him. We saw as recently as 7 months ago how Hamilton descends into conspiracy theories and blaming others when results don't go his way. This isn't something he grows out of, this is an actual character trait. Hamilton hasn't galvanised Merc since 2017 beyond "well done guys you're awesome", the team was already set. Now let's see how he handles the downslide. History requires Max and Red Bull to show us this side of Hamilton now.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Siao7 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am
myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:46 am
But that wasn't the point of the post, which was to highlight Schumacher's contribution to Mercedes's success today, that team building trait which Hamilton (or anyone else) doesn't hold a candle to.

Only two people in F1 history are this instrumental in building dominant teams more than once - one is Adrian Newey, the other is Michael Schumacher.
People are living in a dream world. Schumacher was an incredible driver, hard worker and leader within the teams he drove for but he was merely one cog in a very complex machine. It's fascinating how people overstate his contribution to Mercedes domination when the team was obviously investing resources and recruiting the best personnel with a view towards 2014.

Schumacher had many incredible people beside him throughout his career: Brawn, Byrne, Costa and Todt to name but a few not to mention the many unheralded engineers in his successful Benetton and Ferrari teams. To overstate his contribution and understate theirs is gauche great man-ism.

Hamilton has shown his ability to galvanise a team from 2017-present and before then his insecurity around his ability and confidence allowed Button to takeover at McLaren and his inability to fully turn Mercedes against Rosberg. He just isn't the domineering, supremely confident being that Schumacher was.
Every time with the same argument... No one is saying that Schumacher did everything himself. The very post you are replying to says that he was instrumental in building a team, not that he did it himself. The contribution to all his teams has been documented by the very people he worked with. What he brought to the team. So it is not dream world frankly. And especially for Mercedes, Schumacher along with Haug were the people who convinced the Merc board to pour more money in the team and bring Toto, which evolved to today's monster team.

Hamilton also had/has great people beside him, your point being? A big driver joining a team will naturally make the biggest names gravitate towards them. There is no point to have the driver but not the machinery to deliver. This happened a lot for the big names in the sport.

The difference is that Hamilton was a stranger in a team that had supported him since he was 8 years old, while Schumacher would do the opposite. No one is bigger than the team in the end of the day. But Schumacher (and Senna for that matter) had the persona and the charisma to win people and make them work that much extra harder. And that was in an era that it wasn't as streamlined and polished like now.

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by Fiki »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:13 am
myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:46 am
But that wasn't the point of the post, which was to highlight Schumacher's contribution to Mercedes's success today, that team building trait which Hamilton (or anyone else) doesn't hold a candle to.

Only two people in F1 history are this instrumental in building dominant teams more than once - one is Adrian Newey, the other is Michael Schumacher.
People are living in a dream world. Schumacher was an incredible driver, hard worker and leader within the teams he drove for but he was merely one cog in a very complex machine. It's fascinating how people overstate his contribution to Mercedes domination when the team was obviously investing resources and recruiting the best personnel with a view towards 2014.

Schumacher had many incredible people beside him throughout his career: Brawn, Byrne, Costa and Todt to name but a few not to mention the many unheralded engineers in his successful Benetton and Ferrari teams. To overstate his contribution and understate theirs is gauche great man-ism.

Hamilton has shown his ability to galvanise a team from 2017-present and before then his insecurity around his ability and confidence allowed Button to takeover at McLaren and his inability to fully turn Mercedes against Rosberg. He just isn't the domineering, supremely confident being that Schumacher was.
There are two things that make me question just how much "leadership" Schumacher showed at Ferrari and, to a lesser extent at Mercedes. They are the way in which he was in both cases let go when the team apparently were willing to give him the necessary time to consider his options, but couldn't wait much beyond late summer for his decision. That he was replaced in both cases by one of the fastest drivers then identifiable in the F1 field, means he was still considered fast enough to be taken seriously, and rightly so.

I believe the reason for 'great man-ism' is easy enough to understand; the final responsibility for results lays with the person turning the wheel and pushing the pedals. But you are right in emphasising the team's part in achieving it - even though the first thing I would remove from the sport would be remote control racing as we have seen it developed over the past two decades or so. Not doing so removes the need for a drivers' championship, no matter how hard their task is.
Perhaps because of that, I have come to see the driver's greater input, as seen by such as Lauda, Prost, Schumacher, ... more as being a catalyst rather than outright leadership. I believe it helps to explain Ferrari's signing Räikkönen in 2006, putting more faith in a driver's speed than his perceived leadership qualities. I may be wrong, but it seems some confuse being the number 1 driver, with being the team leader.

One thing Schumacher made me notice in his Mercedes career, was that like Prost, his age wasn't the factor some would have us believe. On deciding to leave the sport after becoming WDC, Rosberg said something Schumacher had also said on retiring; that digging so deep had become too difficult to sustain. It will be interesting to see whether drivers entering the sport ever younger, will experience the same difficulties earlier or not. Of course, lack of speed may shorten their careers before they reach that point.

Interesting thread!
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:12 pm
Exediron wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm
It's strange how we keep getting told that in his final year he was better than Rosberg.
Why is it strange? It's a fairly commonly held opinion, although certainly not universal. There's even some data that suggests it might be true (point projections adjusted for reliability, mostly) although I have to say I haven't delved into the question myself.
I would say it's a commonly held opinion by Schumacher fans, meanwhile the article put forward to praise Schumacher states he had problems to match Rosberg in certain areas, some with respect to his age, which meant going forward being competitive would be difficult for him.
And yet despite that he was, on balance, as good as Rosberg in 2012.
I wouldn't want to disagree with that It's actually Schumacher fans that would want to disagree, with maybe the wording slightly different with Rosberg being as good as Schumacher.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by A.J. »

JV stirring the pot with his take on this - as with a broken clock, he's also right sometimes:

“Michael and Ayrton have won with cars they didn’t have to win, in complicated situations, without the support of the team.

“Lewis, on the other hand, has always dominated with the best means and with internal support. We should see it without these two conditions.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/jacques-v ... chumacher/

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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:00 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:45 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 pm


But so what if Bottas ignored Merc... He was in the right wasn't he. That was proved at the start when he overtook Verstappen. Merc should be thanking him.

If you seriously think Hamilton wouldn't put himself in the best possible position to win a race (which was all that Bottas was doing) then you're in a total dreamland.
Sorry I missed this reply.

We see in a recent interview that Wolff doesn't want warring teammates, he doesn't want a repeat of Hamilton and Rosberg, now name me anything nefarious that Hamilton has done against Bottas?

Now I understand your wishes for Bottas to turn Rosberg on Hamilton but Wolff himself is being consistent in how he wants to run the team and giving tows to rival drivers in order to gain advantage over his teammate wouldn't fit that bill.
I disagree that what Bottas did was in anyway "nefarious" He was giving himself the best possible chance in the race. If starting P3 is better than staring P2 then why wouldn't Wolff want Bottas to start P3? Unless, of course he is more concerned about protecting Hamilton in P1 than he is about Bottas?

And also, Wolff can't now bang on about not wanting drivers clashing. He was the man who repeatedly extended Nico Rosberg's contract.
Well it appears that Wolff himself wasn't pleased and he might have thoughts of car parking at Monaco and I don't want the team to become a war zone again, helping a rival driver for your own ends I would describe as being nefarious.

In respect to Rosberg he was a German in a German team, that being said it was rumoured that in 2016 Rosberg was only being offered a 1 year contract until the crash at Barcelona were Hamilton threatened to leave the team because he couldn't believe the stance that they took, they panicked and gave Rosberg a 2 year contract. Perhaps a bit tongue in cheek and with a grin on his face Rosberg said recently it was pay back for COTA 2015.
But Bottas didn't help Verstappen. He thought starting 3rd was better than 2nd and he was correct in that.

And you seem reminding as much as Toto... Bottas is a Mercedes driver. What is good for Bottas is good for Mercedes. How can Bottas putting himself in the best position he can to win not be good for Mercedes?

If Toto cared about Merc being a warzone why is Rosberg even driving for them in 2016?

At the end of the day you can believe what you want but it seems pretty clear Merc is very much team Hamilton and Valteri is just the guy who drives the other car. There is no way Wolff reacts to a Hamilton win the way he does to Bottas' in Russia. Under any circumstance. Keeping Hamilton happy is a higher priority than Bottas winning.
I think it's you believing what you want to believe, I've managed to watch the episode now and Wolff clearly stated his philosophy of wanting a 1-2 on the grid because it better protects the pole position driver, I guess you want to believe that Wolff has a crystal ball that always puts Hamilton on pole position so he can be protected by Bottas.

We came into this with you stating that the lack of support for Bottas' win shows favouritism for Hamilton, you don't think that the Bottas attitude of I come before the team might have had something to do with that, and let's not forget the lambasting Wolff gave Hamilton for the way he drove in Abu Dhabi 2016.
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Re: Hamilton vs Schumacher and their contemporaries (split from Official Hamilton Thread)

Post by F1Tyrant »

myattitude wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:43 am
We saw as recently as 7 months ago how Hamilton descends into conspiracy theories and blaming others when results don't go his way. This isn't something he grows out of, this is an actual character trait. Hamilton hasn't galvanised Merc since 2017 beyond "well done guys you're awesome", the team was already set. Now let's see how he handles the downslide. History requires Max and Red Bull to show us this side of Hamilton now.
I've conceded that Hamilton is mentally weak and insecure but for now he feels secure at Mercedes. There is no way Max can disturb that as Hamilton can just say that Red Bull is a much better car. The real drama will be when Russell joins him at Mercedes for 2022. It will be spectacular.
Siao7 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:54 am
And especially for Mercedes, Schumacher along with Haug were the people who convinced the Merc board to pour more money in the team and bring Toto, which evolved to today's monster team.
It's the perfect storm though, his retirement at the end of 2012 allows people to stretch his contribution despite the constant change of personnel, team structure and team culture since unless we are all pretending Schumacher was some kind of prophet. Ross Brawn and Bob Bell departed, Paddy Lowe came and went, James Allison arrived. It's hard to credit Schumacher with the ship of Theseus Mercedes is today.
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