Who ruined Williams?

[Schermerhorn]

Things looked very much on the up in 2012 when they had a fast car but had two numskull drivers and then they struck gold in 2014 with the new regulations and enjoyed two solid seasons and plenty of Concorde money to plough back into the team.

Then came Claire Williams.....and it all went Pete Tong.

Did their 'insistence' in doing it their own way contribute to their own downfall? Was she too caught up in the whole Williams nostalgia and living in the past?

Did they simply fail to understand these regulations properly?

Was it just too toxic and/or lacking leadership at the top?

Will they ever stop being the "zero" team?

[Banana Man]

Things were wrong at Williams for a long, long time before the blip in 2014/15. That was more luck than anything, they happened upon a far superior engine and had a reasonable car to stick it in. Since then they just haven’t had the budget to push on, whilst everyone else has caught and past them. Poor decision making and a lack of backing from any major manufacturer have left them where they are now.

[myattitude]

They went downhill since 2004 onwards. Lots of things and I wouldn't pin on one person. If the buck ultimately stops with the boss then I guess Frank then Claire, but I wouldn't want to point at them because they don't deserve it. That's just sports for you.

[Schermerhorn]

They went downhill since 2004 onwards. Lots of things and I wouldn't pin on one person. If the buck ultimately stops with the boss then I guess Frank then Claire, but I wouldn't want to point at them because they don't deserve it. That's just sports for you.

No CEO or leading person should be beyond criticism.

Similarly, no one should be below praise.

I dont believe Claire Williams was the right person for the job. Nepotism is not always a good thing - infact it rarely is.

[sdcanoe]

It was Paddy Lowe.

[Banana Man]

They went downhill since 2004 onwards. Lots of things and I wouldn't pin on one person. If the buck ultimately stops with the boss then I guess Frank then Claire, but I wouldn't want to point at them because they don't deserve it. That's just sports for you.

Ultimately, if you’re the boss the team lives and dies by your decisions. I think it all started to go wrong mid-2003. BMW were convinced they had the best engine in the grid and it certainly looked that way on the outside, having overcome most of the 2000/1 reliability issues. But Williams chassis was far from the best, then they fell out with JPM (not entirely their fault) and in 2004 built an absolute dud with the Walrus nose. 2005 was another step down the ladder from the top teams and by then BMW had had enough.

[F1Tyrant]

William's and Head started the rot by basically freezing Adrian Newey out of a partnership by signing Villeneuve and Frentzen behind his back.

Newey wanted a stake in the team but William's and Head were living in their past glories and didn't foresee how Newey leaving would start their decade long decline.

[mikeyg123]

I just think that F1 moved away from their goals. They wanted to be successful themselves without having to sell part of the team to do it.

Therefore giving some to Newey or BMW wouldn't work for them. It doesn't move them closer to what they want to achieve. It just became impossible to succeed in F1 without massive backing. The shame is had they been able to limp through a few more years they may have found things moving back towards them with the incoming budget cap.

[cmberry20]

One person that doesn't crop up more than I thought is Sam Michael.
Looking at his history, he seems to go to F1 teams & they get a lot worse. I happen to bump into a designer that worked on the 2010 Williams car & he said that Michaels had no clue on how to run things & treated all the other designers below him like cr@p.

[pokerman]

William's and Head started the rot by basically freezing Adrian Newey out of a partnership by signing Villeneuve and Frentzen behind his back.

Newey wanted a stake in the team but William's and Head were living in their past glories and didn't foresee how Newey leaving would start their decade long decline.

Yeah they seemed to not want to lose any kind of control over the team and basically froze out younger blood such as Newey, with Newey it wasn't who they signed but who they sacked that being his close friend Damon Hill, that was the final straw for Newey.

[pokerman]

One person that doesn't crop up more than I thought is Sam Michael.
Looking at his history, he seems to go to F1 teams & they get a lot worse. I happen to bump into a designer that worked on the 2010 Williams car & he said that Michaels had no clue on how to run things & treated all the other designers below him like cr@p.

Yeah I wonder how many people in F1 gain reputation on the shoulders of more talented people, I would also be looking at Paddy Lowe.

[pokerman]

Clearly a lot of things helped in the demise of Williams but I would also say having Claire Williams steering the ship in the final years can't have helped either, did she really know how to run a F1 team?

[Johnson]

Frank and Patrick Head, they had 3-4 attempts to modernise and secure the teams future but were too stubborn.

[cmberry20]

One of the main turning points of Williams was from 1997 with the departure of Adrian Newey.
Newey wanted a say in a lot of ways on how Williams was run - contracts, drivers etc. However, Frank didn't want this - after all it was HIS team. So, even after telling Newey that he would have a say in Drivers & contracts, Frank went behind his back (multiple times) and did what he wanted to do without discussing it with Newey first. So, Newey left Williams to go to Mclaren, and as they say, the rest is history.

[Banana Man]

I think if they’d have kept Hill, he’d have won the ‘97 Championship fairly comfortably and Newey would have stayed. It’s hard to say what ‘98 would have brought without Renault engines but a Newey designed car would have been a lot closer to the front. At a guess, Michael wins that championship with Williams and McLaren fairly evenly matched behind.

There would still be the 99/00 transitional period but with Newey, BMW and JPM from 2001 onwards they’d have won a couple of WDC.

[DOLOMITE]

I wouldn't single out an individual but I do wonder what people think the key events and decisions are that led to their downfall. Would be interesting to plot their WCC position against these events. Perhaps plot out by year their Engine, driver, line-up, Management, Aero Designer, and WCC position? Since say '97.

[j man]

Bernie Ecclestone. This environment where the famous marques get all the cash while the small, privately run teams are left fighting over scraps was his doing. Perhaps there are a few things that Frank and Claire could have done better, but ultimately the odds were always stacked against them for having the audacity to believe that an F1 team could be run as a sustainable independent business.

They lasted longer than Jordan, Sauber, Minardi and the rest so they do deserve some credit.

[Charles LeBrad]

One person that doesn't crop up more than I thought is Sam Michael.
Looking at his history, he seems to go to F1 teams & they get a lot worse. I happen to bump into a designer that worked on the 2010 Williams car & he said that Michaels had no clue on how to run things & treated all the other designers below him like cr@p.

Yeah I was about to mention his name, but saw you beat me to it. I feel like the fall from grace started with his appointment.
He also went to Mclaren coincidentally when they started their decline. I’ve often questioned his ability

[Steve_muzzy]

Pride wadnthoer problem. I think the attitude that they still needed to build everything themselves, thinking they were still at a higher level than they were (this in my view caused McLaren harm, remember they wouldnt discount sponsor places etc.) was the killer. You were either spending huge to be first or second or realising ypu were midfield and buying in the bits to get you there.

[DOLOMITE]

So wen do you feel the decline actually started? They were 3rd in the WCC in '14-'15 which seems a long time ago now. Since winning in '97 they had been a bit up and down but were 2nd in '02 and '03.
So in terms of a continuing decline I guess you have to go from '16 but their points haul has been on the decline since 2014

WCC Pts as % on Winning Teams Pts

2014: (Bottas & Massa) 3rd (320/701 46%)
2015: (Bottas & Massa) 3rd (257/703 37%)
2016: (Bottas & Massa) 5th (138/765 18%)
2017: (Massa & Stroll) 5th (83/668 12%)
2018: (Sirotkin & Stroll) 10th (7/655 1%)
2019: (Kubica & Russell) 10th (1/739 0%)
2020: (Latifi & Russell) 10th (0/573 0%)

2014: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
2015: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
2016: ||||||||||||||||||
2017: ||||||||||||
2018: |
2019:
2020:



Claire "took over" in 2013, Lowe joined 17, left end of '19 I think.

Also interesting to go back and see how their driver line ups may have been affected by/driven by budget:

1997: Renault (Frentzen & Villeneuve)
1998: Mecachrome (Frentzen & Villeneuve)
1999: Supertec (Schumacher & Zanardi)
2000: BMW (Button & Schumacher)
2001: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2002: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2003: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2004: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2005: BMW (Heidfeld & Webber)
2006: Cosworth (Rosberg & Webber)
2007: Toyota (Rosberg & Wurz)
2008: Toyota (Nakajima & Rosberg)
2009: Toyota (Nakajima & Rosberg)
2010: Cosworth (Barrichello & Hulkenberg)
2011: Cosworth (Barrichello & Maldonado)
2012: Renault (Maldonado & Senna)
2013: Renault (Bottas & Maldonado)
2014: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2015: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2016: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2017: Mercedes (Massa & Stroll)
2018: Mercedes (Sirotkin & Stroll)
2019: Mercedes (Kubica & Russell)
2020: Mercedes (Latifi & Russell)

[pokerman]

So wen do you feel the decline actually started? They were 3rd in the WCC in '14-'15 which seems a long time ago now. Since winning in '97 they had been a bit up and down but were 2nd in '02 and '03.
So in terms of a continuing decline I guess you have to go from '16 but their points haul has been on the decline since 2014

WCC Pts as % on Winning Teams Pts

2014: (Bottas & Massa) 3rd (320/701 46%)
2015: (Bottas & Massa) 3rd (257/703 37%)
2016: (Bottas & Massa) 5th (138/765 18%)
2017: (Massa & Stroll) 5th (83/668 12%)
2018: (Sirotkin & Stroll) 10th (7/655 1%)
2019: (Kubica & Russell) 10th (1/739 0%)
2020: (Latifi & Russell) 10th (0/573 0%)

2014: ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
2015: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
2016: ||||||||||||||||||
2017: ||||||||||||
2018: |
2019:
2020:



Claire "took over" in 2013, Lowe joined 17, left end of '19 I think.

Also interesting to go back and see how their driver line ups may have been affected by/driven by budget:

1997: Renault (Frentzen & Villeneuve)
1998: Mecachrome (Frentzen & Villeneuve)
1999: Supertec (Schumacher & Zanardi)
2000: BMW (Button & Schumacher)
2001: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2002: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2003: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2004: BMW (Montoya & Schumacher)
2005: BMW (Heidfeld & Webber)
2006: Cosworth (Rosberg & Webber)
2007: Toyota (Rosberg & Wurz)
2008: Toyota (Nakajima & Rosberg)
2009: Toyota (Hulkenberg & Barrichello)
2010: Cosworth (Barrichello & Maldonado)
2011: Cosworth (Maldonado & Senna)
2012: Renault (Maldonado & Senna)
2013: Renault (Bottas & Maldonado)
2014: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2015: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2016: Mercedes (Bottas & Massa)
2017: Mercedes (Massa & Stroll)
2018: Mercedes (Sirotkin & Stroll)
2019: Mercedes (Kubica & Russell)
2020: Mercedes (Latifi & Russell)

Rosberg drove for Williams in 2009.

[Bobafett]

Newey leaving didn't help but the BMW partnership going south was the moment it really started the ruining, their approach to driver relationships did not help, Montoya and Ralf were the last big time lineup they had, Webber and Hiedfeld were solid but at that point neither were that level

Like Tyrrell they wanted to be fully independent and like Tyrrell slipped down the rankings

[Rotax Max 125]

The loss of Adrian Newey and the failed relationship with BMW. Its sounds like they weren't quite working in harmony during their time together

[Asphalt_World]

Thing is, how many traditional manufacturers are genuinely left in the sport? McLaren are by name and whilst is still very much McLaren, over half of the company are owned by the Bahrain Royal family! It was almost inevitable that Williams would have to sell at some point. They just hung on longer than most would have thought.

[SlipstreamF1]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

[pokerman]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

[mikeyg123]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

Is that normal for him?

[pokerman]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

Is that normal for him?

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

[mikeyg123]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

Is that normal for him?

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

[pokerman]

Ultimately it's the budget. I think Paddy Lowe would've given them a contender if they had the budget. Without a budget, what the hell could he have accomplished? Not even Adrian Newey could've built them a good car.

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

Is that normal for him?

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

I've questioned this before, do some people live on the shoulders of others, Claire Williams was clear on who she blamed for the catoshpre.

[mikeyg123]

Paddy Lowe couldn't get a car ready in time for winter testing and ended up getting sacked.

Is that normal for him?

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

I've questioned this before, do some people live on the shoulders of others, Claire Williams was clear on who she blamed for the catoshpre.

But it's not like Williams were doing well previously....

They went from the worst team to even worse.

If you believe that's the fault of Paddy Lowe then he went from highly effective to incompetent.

I just don't see that as likely. Williams had already got worse every single season since 2014 but then the decrease between 2018 and 2019 just happens to be Paddy Lowe's fault? Well whose was it before him...

[pokerman]

Is that normal for him?

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

I've questioned this before, do some people live on the shoulders of others, Claire Williams was clear on who she blamed for the catoshpre.

But it's not like Williams were doing well previously....

They went from the worst team to even worse.

If you believe that's the fault of Paddy Lowe then he went from highly effective to incompetent.

I just don't see that as likely. Williams had already got worse every single season since 2014 but then the decrease between 2018 and 2019 just happens to be Paddy Lowe's fault? Well whose was it before him...

When did Williams not have a new car ready for winter testing before, it's clear who Claire Williams blamed for this hence the sacking.

We don't really know what the likes of Paddy Lowe contributes to a team, he always joined successful teams, Williams was the first team he actually had to rebuild, when he left Mercedes he left no ripples.

[mikeyg123]

Well he took the fall for it so I'm guessing he had responsibility, after all what was his job supposed to be, wasn't it overall charge of the organising of the team, he was being paid a lot of money, I'm a bit confused to what he actually did?

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

I've questioned this before, do some people live on the shoulders of others, Claire Williams was clear on who she blamed for the catoshpre.

But it's not like Williams were doing well previously....

They went from the worst team to even worse.

If you believe that's the fault of Paddy Lowe then he went from highly effective to incompetent.

I just don't see that as likely. Williams had already got worse every single season since 2014 but then the decrease between 2018 and 2019 just happens to be Paddy Lowe's fault? Well whose was it before him...

When did Williams not have a new car ready for winter testing before, it's clear who Claire Williams blamed for this hence the sacking.

We don't really know what the likes of Paddy Lowe contributes to a team, he always joined successful teams, Williams was the first team he actually had to rebuild, when he left Mercedes he left no ripples.

So who was to blame for the 4 seasons before Paddy joined where they went backwards every year?

Paddy didn't stop Williams going backwards but 2019 is a continuation of what had been happening since 2015. They'd already gone from 2nd quickest to slowest in just a couple of years before Paddy joined. He can't be blamed for that.

[F1 MERCENARY]

Correct. Paddy was not to blame for anything in Williams CONTINUED downward demise. If anything, his track record spoke for itself and is particularly WHY Claire hired him. McLaren and Mercedes did exceedingly well with him there. Mercedes' rise to dominance was started by Ross Brawn, and Toto did a splendid job of not mucking it up!… Yet he receives so much praise for "building" a team when he did very little outside of holding on to the reins and letting the horse continue on the course it was already heading to.

I'd have to say Claire slowly ruined Williams but it also started about a decade before when Sir Frank (as much as I love him) and Head decided paying for top drivers wasn't how they thought F1 should be and slowly but surely, those whom did pay to obtain the services of top drivers slowly made sure to send Williams backwards, costing them MILLIONS of dollars each season, until they were earning very little from the pot compared to the others who were winning. That saw to it that they were at a severe financial disadvantage which stifled their ability to build a car on par with the top teams.

[Harpo]

I don't know how we can shift the responsability from the Williams. In fine, the ones who took all decisions at Williams were the Williams family. Even hiring incompetent staff members, if they ever did it.

[pokerman]

I've no idea but if someone wit a track record of success joins a struggling team and fails to deliver there is usually something a bit more to it than someone usually excellent just randomly becoming peaky.

I've questioned this before, do some people live on the shoulders of others, Claire Williams was clear on who she blamed for the catoshpre.

But it's not like Williams were doing well previously....

They went from the worst team to even worse.

If you believe that's the fault of Paddy Lowe then he went from highly effective to incompetent.

I just don't see that as likely. Williams had already got worse every single season since 2014 but then the decrease between 2018 and 2019 just happens to be Paddy Lowe's fault? Well whose was it before him...

When did Williams not have a new car ready for winter testing before, it's clear who Claire Williams blamed for this hence the sacking.

We don't really know what the likes of Paddy Lowe contributes to a team, he always joined successful teams, Williams was the first team he actually had to rebuild, when he left Mercedes he left no ripples.

So who was to blame for the 4 seasons before Paddy joined where they went backwards every year?

Paddy didn't stop Williams going backwards but 2019 is a continuation of what had been happening since 2015. They'd already gone from 2nd quickest to slowest in just a couple of years before Paddy joined. He can't be blamed for that.

As I thought this had everything to do with not having a new car ready for winter testing, Paddy Lowe was sacked before the first race.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formu ... -2019.html

[pokerman]

I don't know how we can shift the responsability from the Williams. In fine, the ones who took all decisions at Williams were the Williams family. Even hiring incompetent staff members, if they ever did it.

Well it's fair to ask did Claire Williams have a clue about running a F1 team, she seemed to be just a figure head.

[Schermerhorn]

Correct. Paddy was not to blame for anything in Williams CONTINUED downward demise. If anything, his track record spoke for itself and is particularly WHY Claire hired him. McLaren and Mercedes did exceedingly well with him there. Mercedes' rise to dominance was started by Ross Brawn, and Toto did a splendid job of not mucking it up!… Yet he receives so much praise for "building" a team when he did very little outside of holding on to the reins and letting the horse continue on the course it was already heading to.

I'd have to say Claire slowly ruined Williams but it also started about a decade before when Sir Frank (as much as I love him) and Head decided paying for top drivers wasn't how they thought F1 should be and slowly but surely, those whom did pay to obtain the services of top drivers slowly made sure to send Williams backwards, costing them MILLIONS of dollars each season, until they were earning very little from the pot compared to the others who were winning. That saw to it that they were at a severe financial disadvantage which stifled their ability to build a car on par with the top teams.

I would also ask the question "do they even have the talent and facilities to build an elite racing car anymore?"

Is the brain power there? Is there a Plan A to Z in place etc on how to develop and continuously develop a car and maintain an advantage?

[Kev627]

I realise a good car isn't the only thing the team needs to be successful but who is the current chief designer at Williams?

[klevispin]

Rob Smedley is to blame. He was Head of Vehicle Performance and only oversaw a constant demise in vehicle performance. The only reason Williams had a good result the year he joined is because he’d not had input into the car at that stage. His ruinous influence was only felt later.