planetf1.com

UnlikeUday wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:36 pm

A panel of 8 writers have voted from the strongest to the weakest lineup of 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/we-rank- ... -line-ups/

Here is their combined voting result:

1. Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
2. Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
3. Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
4. Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
5. Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
6. Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)
7. Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
8. George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
9. Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
10. Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

Mort Canard wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:20 pm

The good team mate matches should be:
Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)

OTOH team mate wars that should be blow outs will be:
Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)

Exediron wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:31 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

In fact, as the A>B>C thread recently delved into, the numbers suggest that Ocon is slightly better than Perez -- or at least quicker in raw pace, which isn't always the same thing.

I'd be hesitant to rate a 40-year-old Alonso as better than the current Max Verstappen, however, even as a big Alonso fan.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.

On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:15 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.

On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!

Well I knew that you rated Alonso the highest before he left F1.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:29 pm

I didn't want to go the A>B>C thread but that suggests that Verstappen beats a prime Alonso quite easily, well at least in qualifying.

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:49 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:15 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm

mikeyg123 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm

Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.

On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!

Well I knew that you rated Alonso the highest before he left F1.

I did. Hence me implying if he is as good as before then Renault/Alpine would be the best pairing. It's just logical.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:28 pm

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:29 pm

I didn't want to go the A>B>C thread but that suggests that Verstappen beats a prime Alonso quite easily, well at least in qualifying.

I think that's what I'd expect, to be honest. The numbers suggest that both Verstappen and Leclerc are a decent margin faster than Alonso's peak in qualifying pace -- which isn't a shock, if both are quite possibly faster than Hamilton as well.

Alonso's greatest strength was never qualifying pace, but as I said I think it would be a stretch to consider Alonso better than Verstappen at the moment. If the two were teammates, I would expect a Lauda/Prost dynamic where Alonso might be able to beat Max by simply forgetting about qualifying and setting up his car purely for the race (to whatever extent that's possible with modern cars).

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm

There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm

There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.

Sainz has never actually been up against an elite driver, that wasn't Verstappen in 2015, however he did get beat by a tier 2 driver.

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.

Exediron wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:32 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.

If Leclerc or Verstappen was winning piles of championships and Sainz or Perez were doing nothing to provide a challenge then I'm sure you'd hear about it.

There certainly wasn't any shortage of people calling for Webber to be kicked out of Red Bull and replaced with a driver who could give Vettel a genuine fight back in 2010-2013. This isn't a new phenomenon just because it's Hamilton in the winning car now.

KingVoid wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:01 am

pokerman wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm

BMWSauber84 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm

There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.

Sainz has never actually been up against an elite driver, that wasn't Verstappen in 2015, however he did get beat by a tier 2 driver.

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.

You are smart enough to understand why that is, so there is no need to play the victim.

If Ferrari nail the 2022 regulations and Leclerc dominates 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025 while his teammate is unable to challenge him at all, I can guarantee you that loads of fans will be screaming for Sainz to be replaced.