2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

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The best team lineup is/are:

Mercedes
5
8%
Red Bull
19
32%
McLaren
14
24%
Aston Martin
4
7%
Renault
1
2%
Ferrari
13
22%
Alpha Tauri
1
2%
Alfa Romeo
1
2%
Haas
1
2%
Williams
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 59

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2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by UnlikeUday »

Image

What a 2021 we have in prospect!!!!! Most of the team lineups have changed (barring Mercedes, Alfa Romeo & Williams).

Some lineups could be stronger than others purely based on the car. Some rookies here as well.

What's Your take guys on the potential of the '21 grid & driver pairing in general? Which team's intra battle You're the most excited for?
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Invade »

Just look at the lead drivers of many of those teams. Hamilton (TBD), Verstappen, Leclerc, Alonso, Ricciardo, Vettel. It's mouthwatering stuff.

Will any of the second drivers to those alphas spring a surprise and win out in the season?

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Remmirath »

There are a lot of interesting pairings here.

Ferrari, Red Bull, and McLaren look to have the best team lineups to me; all three of them have two drivers who are proven to be quick, at least one of which has been in the conversation for the fastest driver. I'd pick McLaren as the one to keep an eye most on.

It will be interesting to see how Tsunoda does, as he looked very quick in F2, but I don't rate Gasly as highly as even the second driver in the three teams I already mentioned and I won't be surprised if that's not much of a battle, so AlphaTauri doesn't make the list. All the other teams pretty much have one good driver and one who has either been proven to be mediocre or will almost certainly be so.

If Giovinazzi can stop fading backwards so much in the race Alfa Romeo could be a battle next season, but at this point I don't actually expect him to improve in that regard. I would also expect Schumacher and Mazepin to be close, given Mick's pattern of taking a year to get up to speed, but because of that pattern it won't be a particularly interesting battle (even disregarding everything negative about Mazepin).

Mercedes and Williams are as much of foregone conclusions as they were this season. Neither Bottas nor Latifi have a chance. Assuming, which I certainly am, that Hamilton is re-signing; otherwise that could be different for Mercedes.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Exediron »

I think the best are Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull; all have one class-leading driver, and a second driver at the upper end of the second tier (as a matter of fact, I think Perez, Sainz and Bottas are probably the three best second tier drivers).

Ricciardo and Norris is also strong, but gives something away by having a driver who isn't quite as quick as the peak drivers. Alonso and Ocon at Renault has the opposite problem, with a peak driver paired against what I view as a weaker second than any of the three I picked.

Gasly and Tsunoda should also be interesting to watch, mostly as an evaluation tool for Tsunoda. If he can get close to Gasly -- or certainly if he can outright beat him -- in his rookie season, he should have a bright future ahead.

(obviously, I've made my selection on the assumption Hamilton re-signs at Mercedes)
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by UnlikeUday »

A panel of 8 writers have voted from the strongest to the weakest lineup of 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/we-rank- ... -line-ups/

Here is their combined voting result:

1. Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
2. Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
3. Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
4. Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
5. Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
6. Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)
7. Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
8. George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
9. Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
10. Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:36 pm
A panel of 8 writers have voted from the strongest to the weakest lineup of 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/we-rank- ... -line-ups/

Here is their combined voting result:

1. Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
2. Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
3. Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
4. Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
5. Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
6. Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)
7. Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
8. George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
9. Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
10. Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)
Going by our recent driver ranking poll the strongest line ups are:-

1. Red Bull
2. Ferrari
3. Mercedes
4. McLaren

So that nearly mirrors their list.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by mikeyg123 »

Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Mort Canard »

The good team mate matches should be:
Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)

OTOH team mate wars that should be blow outs will be:
Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
In fact, as the A>B>C thread recently delved into, the numbers suggest that Ocon is slightly better than Perez -- or at least quicker in raw pace, which isn't always the same thing.

I'd be hesitant to rate a 40-year-old Alonso as better than the current Max Verstappen, however, even as a big Alonso fan.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

Mort Canard wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:20 pm
The good team mate matches should be:
Carlos Sainz/Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)
Max Verstappen/Sergio Perez (Red Bull)
Daniel Ricciardo/Lando Norris (Mclaren)
Fernando Alonso/Esteban Ocon (Alpine)
Pierre Gasly/Yuki Tsunoda (Alpha Tauri)

OTOH team mate wars that should be blow outs will be:
Lewis Hamilton/Valtteri Bottas (Mercedes)
Sebastian Vettel/Lance Stroll (Aston Martin)
Kimi Raikkonen/Antonio Giovinazzi (Alfa Romeo)
George Russell/Nicolas Latifi (Williams)
Mick Schumacher/Nikita Mazepin (Haas)
I would in part disagree I see the Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren partnerships as being blow outs, while the Alfa Romeo and Haas partnerships being close.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:31 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
In fact, as the A>B>C thread recently delved into, the numbers suggest that Ocon is slightly better than Perez -- or at least quicker in raw pace, which isn't always the same thing.

I'd be hesitant to rate a 40-year-old Alonso as better than the current Max Verstappen, however, even as a big Alonso fan.
I didn't want to go the A>B>C thread but that suggests that Verstappen beats a prime Alonso quite easily, well at least in qualifying.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.
On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:14 pm
Renault could be 5th or 1st depending on how good the returning Alonso is. If he's as good as he was before it's the strongest lineup.
A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.
On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!
Well I knew that you rated Alonso the highest before he left F1.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

People say Bottas is no good, but he three times as many votes as Alonso and Ocon just by himself.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:19 pm

A strong shout for 5th but Ocon didn't look that great last year to suggest a possible 1st, two drivers with question marks.
Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.
On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!
Well I knew that you rated Alonso the highest before he left F1.
I did. Hence me implying if he is as good as before then Renault/Alpine would be the best pairing. It's just logical.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by KingVoid »

I rate Hamilton and Verstappen at the same level with Leclerc half a step behind because he makes more unforced errors.

I rate Perez higher than Sainz and Bottas.

Therefore:

1. Red Bull
2. Mercedes
3. Ferrari

Although it’s close

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:29 pm
I didn't want to go the A>B>C thread but that suggests that Verstappen beats a prime Alonso quite easily, well at least in qualifying.
I think that's what I'd expect, to be honest. The numbers suggest that both Verstappen and Leclerc are a decent margin faster than Alonso's peak in qualifying pace -- which isn't a shock, if both are quite possibly faster than Hamilton as well.

Alonso's greatest strength was never qualifying pace, but as I said I think it would be a stretch to consider Alonso better than Verstappen at the moment. If the two were teammates, I would expect a Lauda/Prost dynamic where Alonso might be able to beat Max by simply forgetting about qualifying and setting up his car purely for the race (to whatever extent that's possible with modern cars).
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by BMWSauber84 »

There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:24 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm


Well if we agree Red Bull is the chief competition then we know Ocon and Perez are very similar in terms of performance. Alonso just needs to be better than Verstappen.
Similar but Perez won out both seasons and last year Ocon didn't look as good but I guess a year out can do that whilst Alonso perhaps has powers were 2 years out will have no affect on him?

A 40 year old Alonso being better than a 24 year old F1 race hardened Verstappen I feel might not go much beyond your personal opinion but we will see I guess.
On another thread you are saying my undying love for Verstappen is clouding my judgement. Make your mind up!
Well I knew that you rated Alonso the highest before he left F1.
I did. Hence me implying if he is as good as before then Renault/Alpine would be the best pairing. It's just logical.
Yes it logical ties in with how highly you happen to rate Alonso, others may disagree. :)
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:29 pm
I didn't want to go the A>B>C thread but that suggests that Verstappen beats a prime Alonso quite easily, well at least in qualifying.
I think that's what I'd expect, to be honest. The numbers suggest that both Verstappen and Leclerc are a decent margin faster than Alonso's peak in qualifying pace -- which isn't a shock, if both are quite possibly faster than Hamilton as well.

Alonso's greatest strength was never qualifying pace, but as I said I think it would be a stretch to consider Alonso better than Verstappen at the moment. If the two were teammates, I would expect a Lauda/Prost dynamic where Alonso might be able to beat Max by simply forgetting about qualifying and setting up his car purely for the race (to whatever extent that's possible with modern cars).
I'm not sure either, given that's something he could do, what helped Lauda was having the fastest car and Prost suffering with worse reliability, unless there is a version were Lauda was actually quicker in the races, I can't remember.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm
There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.
Sainz has never actually been up against an elite driver, that wasn't Verstappen in 2015, however he did get beat by a tier 2 driver.

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.

Regarding Ocon I would disagree that he's in a no win situation, if he beats Alonso then he keeps his seat or even if he's similar to Alonso, it's only if he loses to Alonso quite badly does he risk losing his seat.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm
Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.
If Leclerc or Verstappen was winning piles of championships and Sainz or Perez were doing nothing to provide a challenge then I'm sure you'd hear about it.

There certainly wasn't any shortage of people calling for Webber to be kicked out of Red Bull and replaced with a driver who could give Vettel a genuine fight back in 2010-2013. This isn't a new phenomenon just because it's Hamilton in the winning car now.
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KingVoid
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm
There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.
Sainz has never actually been up against an elite driver, that wasn't Verstappen in 2015, however he did get beat by a tier 2 driver.

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.
You are smart enough to understand why that is, so there is no need to play the victim.

If Ferrari nail the 2022 regulations and Leclerc dominates 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025 while his teammate is unable to challenge him at all, I can guarantee you that loads of fans will be screaming for Sainz to be replaced.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:32 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm
Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.
If Leclerc or Verstappen was winning piles of championships and Sainz or Perez were doing nothing to provide a challenge then I'm sure you'd hear about it.

There certainly wasn't any shortage of people calling for Webber to be kicked out of Red Bull and replaced with a driver who could give Vettel a genuine fight back in 2010-2013. This isn't a new phenomenon just because it's Hamilton in the winning car now.
Yeah good point, I guess I missed my way in want I was thinking that being that Hamilton/Bottas line ups are now becoming the norm and future one team domination will also lead to one driver domination. If you look at the front of the grid every team has basically one strong driver paired to a weaker driver.
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:01 am
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:41 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:49 pm
There are some interesting little subplots here. Perez and Sainz, two drivers seen as midfield generals have chances to prove they can be more than that. Carlos Sainz had it all his own way at McLaren really. The team had pitifully low expectations when he arrived and he was up against a rookie teammate. Over two seasons, a return to 2013/2014 levels of competitiveness has been seen as a triumph, and Sainz has had his reputation enhanced in a convivial environment. He is up against an elite driver for the first time since 2015. We will find out how much he has improved, and whether that McLaren flattered him a bit. He gets one season with the pressure off though given Ferrari's struggles.

For Perez he has to avoid annihilation. Few expect him to beat Max over a season. If he struggles to a similar extent to Gasly and Albon then those two will be somewhat vindicated. If he's a regular top 4 finisher and excellent Verstappen support, then Albon might never get back to the top table. At Alpha Tauri, Gasly us another who rebuilt his reputation last season (although tailed off towards the end). He's got a talented rookie alongside him, so that restored reputation could soon come crumbling down.

McLaren is also fascinating. Lando Norris is a well liked driver for his cheeky personality and turn of pace. Ricciardo is an extremely tough proposition as a teammate though. We'll find out a lot about Norris and his prospects next season. Ocon is possibly in a no win situation at Alpine. If he beats Alonso, comments like "Ah, it's only because Fernando is past it now. Look what happened when Esteban went up against Ricciardo". I'd he is beaten, then the knives will probably be out.

We'll find out if Vettel really is finished when he goes up against Stroll. I'm really hoping for a 2015 style reputation resurrection. At Alfa Romeo, Giovinazzi simply has to beat Kimi this time. I can't see how Alfa (or Ferrari) could justify keeping him on in F1 if he doesn't. Mick may also be in a no win situation. He's heavily expected to thump Mazepin. At Williams I'd expect more of the same as last year unless Hamilton loses his pen.
Sainz has never actually been up against an elite driver, that wasn't Verstappen in 2015, however he did get beat by a tier 2 driver.

Despite criticism of Bottas this is exactly the same set up that both Red Bull and Ferrari want, I'm not sure that either Perez or Sainz will get the same level of criticism after being able to achieve little better than Bottas against their respective teammates.
You are smart enough to understand why that is, so there is no need to play the victim.

If Ferrari nail the 2022 regulations and Leclerc dominates 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025 while his teammate is unable to challenge him at all, I can guarantee you that loads of fans will be screaming for Sainz to be replaced.
For me personally it depends upon how you rate the driver, for instance I didn't really like Schumacher but I didn't mind him dominating the sport because I felt the other drivers were inferior and this in spite of his teammates not only being inferior but very much being treated as #2 drivers.

With Leclerc his stats for this year are through the roof, he may be the fastest driver in F1 after what we saw he did to Vettel, with Vettel has mentioned in another post he wasn't ever tested to that kind of level hence let's see him up against a driver that's not called Webber, for me it's the circumstance of any given situation of how I view that driver that happens to be dominating the sport.

Look I appreciate it's better to have a closer fight at the front but you can't really manufacture that and still call it F1.
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Covalent
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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by Covalent »

I think "Exciting lineup & intra-team battles" (topic) is a completely different topic than "The best team lineup" (poll). For instance I rate Mercedes and RB quite similarly when it comes to who has the best lineup, but the RB intra-team battle is far more exciting because Hamilton vs. Bottas is so old news by now.

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Re: 2021 - Exciting lineup & intra-team battles!

Post by DOLOMITE »

There's some interesting battles ahead for sure.

Mercedes - Bottas 3.0, 4.0, 4.1 - they're all the same. Meh.

Red Bull , well Perez will annoy Verstappen on occasion and do a good job for the team, but it will still ultimately go to the golden boy. Then things get more interesting.

Renault: Alonso should batter Ocon, but if he does, the question is what then for Ocon. He hasn't lived up yet to his initial billing and it could spell the end. He needs good, regular results to avoid being left in the shadows.

McLaren: Great line up in terms of ability and character. I expect Ricciardo to come out on top because of his experience rather than outright speed.

Ferrari: This is the one I'm looking forward to. Whilst Leclerc is clearly the main man there I don't think he's done enough yet to absolutely cement that. If Sainz gets results when Charles doesn't I could see the pendulum swinging. I do expect Lelclerc to come out ahead, but it won't be an easy ride and Sainz is proper hungry and will take any opportunity he can.

After that it's less interesting with less prospect and less at stake.
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